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On November 19 2012 23:37 halldor wrote:
Hey guys, so i've been watching a lot of GSL lately. I've seen a lot of spire play in zvz from leenock and other zergs, i've got some questions regarding that build.
1. When do i take my gasses when i'm going for mutas?
2. Do i make roach warren/double evo or roach warren/infestation pit after i make my mutas?
3. Do i start upgrading +1 att/carapace before i get my mutas or after?
4. When should i take my lair when i'm planning to go mutas?
5. Shouldn't i take my third as early as possible? since that is the strength of this build, denying his third and his map control while getting your third earlier up?
Would really appreciate some answers and maybe a link to some replays of leenock doing this in his recent gsl matches ^^
1. 1st gas usually 3:00-3:30 (hatch first- 15p/16h), 3 more after you start your lair (~6:00)
2. No you do it after your mutas.
3. Look point 3, I believe the only reason to start +1attack before mutas are out is when you want to follow it with a roach bust
4. When you got 100 gas after making speed, baneling nest, and a defensive baneling
5. I think the optimal time to start your third is when your are saturated on 2 base (44 drones). This should be around 7 min, take your third while massing lings to defend it and delay your opponents third.
e: ah sorry misread the 2nd point, I think the best option is 1 evo infestation and a roach warren (in any order, you need them all), double evo could be a little bit of an overkill as you are short on gas after mutas.
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"2. No you do it after your mutas"
Sorry but i was asking if i should get a roach warren+ double evo or roach warren + infestation pit, it relates to my 3'rd question.
Sorry i should have mentioned i was talking about upgrading in evo chambers not the spire in question 3, so should i upgrade +1 attack/carapace or both before i get my mutas or after?
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I think one of the most important aspects of SC is to create routines because they playing much faster.
However I find it hard to do so with zerg being the reactionary race.
Do you think zerg must be more flexible with his builds/routines than other races?
How do you manage to create your own routines with zerg?
Do you have very detailed builds/strategies going deep into midgame or you just go with the flow of the game after the first minutes?
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Hi i was looking for feedback on a build ive been fleshing out, inspired by dimaga and standard ZvP.
Assume standard FFE from toss and fast 3 hatch from zerg.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=html
I got a bit carried away with the planning of the build all the way into the late game but i mainly want feed back for the mid game. The baneling drops are supposed to sink up with any sentry gateway or sentry immortal pushes. Its more or less a skeleton build for a very passive game that is supposed to cover all your bases.
I feel like the drone count may suffer a bit and the zerg is vunerable for a window between 10mins and 12 mins to a gateway all in (although perhaps having banelings in this window will be a stepping stone until the upgrades and infestors pop).
This build should hard counter any DT builds and any forcefield reliant builds.
Any feedback at all is welcome.
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On November 20 2012 07:22 Turbogangsta wrote:Hi i was looking for feedback on a build ive been fleshing out, inspired by dimaga and standard ZvP. Assume standard FFE from toss and fast 3 hatch from zerg. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=htmlI got a bit carried away with the planning of the build all the way into the late game but i mainly want feed back for the mid game. The baneling drops are supposed to sink up with any sentry gateway or sentry immortal pushes. Its more or less a skeleton build for a very passive game that is supposed to cover all your bases. I feel like the drone count may suffer a bit and the zerg is vunerable for a window between 10mins and 12 mins to a gateway all in (although perhaps having banelings in this window will be a stepping stone until the upgrades and infestors pop). This build should hard counter any DT builds and any forcefield reliant builds. Any feedback at all is welcome.
Interesting. Do you have any replays?
Also, what're your drone/supply counts at say the 7/8/9 min. mark with this build? It seems like you do have to sac a lot of eco, and as you said you probably have to modify it for gateway pressure/allin.
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On November 20 2012 07:29 Defenestrator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 20 2012 07:22 Turbogangsta wrote:Hi i was looking for feedback on a build ive been fleshing out, inspired by dimaga and standard ZvP. Assume standard FFE from toss and fast 3 hatch from zerg. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=htmlI got a bit carried away with the planning of the build all the way into the late game but i mainly want feed back for the mid game. The baneling drops are supposed to sink up with any sentry gateway or sentry immortal pushes. Its more or less a skeleton build for a very passive game that is supposed to cover all your bases. I feel like the drone count may suffer a bit and the zerg is vunerable for a window between 10mins and 12 mins to a gateway all in (although perhaps having banelings in this window will be a stepping stone until the upgrades and infestors pop). This build should hard counter any DT builds and any forcefield reliant builds. Any feedback at all is welcome. Interesting. Do you have any replays? Also, what're your drone/supply counts at say the 7/8/9 min. mark with this build? It seems like you do have to sac a lot of eco, and as you said you probably have to modify it for gateway pressure/allin.
No replays since i actually havnt played in a long time (exams). If i remember i will try get some bench marks when i have free time.
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On November 19 2012 23:43 Tribuno wrote:
how do u change your build on PvZ if the toss goes 1 gate exp? I kno wits quite general question but still..
It's so out of date that i don't know how to react.. i think the best thing is to take one gas, research speed at 100 gas and then just continue with the 3 hatch build.. what do u think?
Read my posts replying to mavvie for the over the last 2-3 pages.
Taking early gas for ling speed is de rigeur against gate-first FE, I don't think anyone will say otherwise. To me, everything else is just scouting and reacting, instead of relying on timings as you do against FFE.
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On November 20 2012 07:22 Turbogangsta wrote:Hi i was looking for feedback on a build ive been fleshing out, inspired by dimaga and standard ZvP. Assume standard FFE from toss and fast 3 hatch from zerg. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=htmlI got a bit carried away with the planning of the build all the way into the late game but i mainly want feed back for the mid game. The baneling drops are supposed to sink up with any sentry gateway or sentry immortal pushes. Its more or less a skeleton build for a very passive game that is supposed to cover all your bases. I feel like the drone count may suffer a bit and the zerg is vunerable for a window between 10mins and 12 mins to a gateway all in (although perhaps having banelings in this window will be a stepping stone until the upgrades and infestors pop). This build should hard counter any DT builds and any forcefield reliant builds. Any feedback at all is welcome.
Initial impressions:
Econ looks kinda bad due to beeline for tech. gas at 4:10? Lair 5:30? I don't believe you actually have enough stuff to stop sentry-immortal, even assuming you take down half the sentries with bane bombs. I mean, you have drop, but at what cost? And it's all invested in having bane drops, and anything baneling-based is pretty iffy against any toss units. I also think you look super vulnerable between 7:00 and 8:30, which I guess isn't a big deal because this is supposed to stop sentry-immortal, but it's worth mentioning that you probably can't hold any +1 gateway pressure, with lower econ, and no tech done except banes (not even ling speed).
The build is just hard tech to bane drops, and I don't think you can consistently break a Parting sentry-immortal attack with 12-16 banes, though I concede that it's possible. But you cut corners almost like a nydus all-in, except you have an even riskier single shot (bane drop) and your army is also weak as a result of fast tech while still going 3hatch (i.e. you have no army because you went tech AND econ). Ling upgrades way late, finishing at 11:40, waaaay too late for anything ever, sen's is done at what, 10:00? 10:30? and even then it was a nail-biter. Sooo.... until you can show me that the bane drops is like 95% success at breaking sentry immortal, like he splits sentries against the bane bombs and reinforces with +1 zealots and you still win, I don't buy it. It's too all-in, and commits from so early on that if he does anything else, you're screwed.
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On November 20 2012 07:59 6xFPCs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 20 2012 07:22 Turbogangsta wrote:Hi i was looking for feedback on a build ive been fleshing out, inspired by dimaga and standard ZvP. Assume standard FFE from toss and fast 3 hatch from zerg. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=htmlI got a bit carried away with the planning of the build all the way into the late game but i mainly want feed back for the mid game. The baneling drops are supposed to sink up with any sentry gateway or sentry immortal pushes. Its more or less a skeleton build for a very passive game that is supposed to cover all your bases. I feel like the drone count may suffer a bit and the zerg is vunerable for a window between 10mins and 12 mins to a gateway all in (although perhaps having banelings in this window will be a stepping stone until the upgrades and infestors pop). This build should hard counter any DT builds and any forcefield reliant builds. Any feedback at all is welcome. Initial impressions: Econ looks kinda bad due to beeline for tech. gas at 4:10? Lair 5:30? I don't believe you actually have enough stuff to stop sentry-immortal, even assuming you take down half the sentries with bane bombs. I mean, you have drop, but at what cost? And it's all invested in having bane drops, and anything baneling-based is pretty iffy against any toss units. I also think you look super vulnerable between 7:00 and 8:30, which I guess isn't a big deal because this is supposed to stop sentry-immortal, but it's worth mentioning that you probably can't hold any +1 gateway pressure, with lower econ, and no tech done except banes (not even ling speed). The build is just hard tech to bane drops, and I don't think you can consistently break a Parting sentry-immortal attack with 12-16 banes, though I concede that it's possible. But you cut corners almost like a nydus all-in, except you have an even riskier single shot (bane drop) and your army is also weak as a result of fast tech while still going 3hatch (i.e. you have no army because you went tech AND econ). Ling upgrades way late, finishing at 11:40, waaaay too late for anything ever, sen's is done at what, 10:00? 10:30? and even then it was a nail-biter. Sooo.... until you can show me that the bane drops is like 95% success at breaking sentry immortal, like he splits sentries against the bane bombs and reinforces with +1 zealots and you still win, I don't buy it. It's too all-in, and commits from so early on that if he does anything else, you're screwed.
thanks for the reply i will have to get some econ benchmarks together. I feel like your point about 7-8:30 attacks is mute since a normal fast 3 hatch has to deviate too.
I think banelings do work well verse sentry builds based only on watching dimaga ladder VODs but maybe you are right about protoss just not playing properly.
I havn't checked when sens upgrades finish or am really sure what your reffering to but i assume he is going melee/cara in ZvP and finishing a lot ealier than 11:40. I delayed them because the only upgrade people seem to get before that is +1 ranged which isnt necisary with baneling drops (assuming they are good enough defence).
I guess i sort of assumed that upgrades arent nescicary when you are using banelings to get rid of sentries and zealots so that lings can just overwhealm immortals and stalkers.
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On November 20 2012 08:28 Turbogangsta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 07:59 6xFPCs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 20 2012 07:22 Turbogangsta wrote:Hi i was looking for feedback on a build ive been fleshing out, inspired by dimaga and standard ZvP. Assume standard FFE from toss and fast 3 hatch from zerg. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=htmlI got a bit carried away with the planning of the build all the way into the late game but i mainly want feed back for the mid game. The baneling drops are supposed to sink up with any sentry gateway or sentry immortal pushes. Its more or less a skeleton build for a very passive game that is supposed to cover all your bases. I feel like the drone count may suffer a bit and the zerg is vunerable for a window between 10mins and 12 mins to a gateway all in (although perhaps having banelings in this window will be a stepping stone until the upgrades and infestors pop). This build should hard counter any DT builds and any forcefield reliant builds. Any feedback at all is welcome. Initial impressions: Econ looks kinda bad due to beeline for tech. gas at 4:10? Lair 5:30? I don't believe you actually have enough stuff to stop sentry-immortal, even assuming you take down half the sentries with bane bombs. I mean, you have drop, but at what cost? And it's all invested in having bane drops, and anything baneling-based is pretty iffy against any toss units. I also think you look super vulnerable between 7:00 and 8:30, which I guess isn't a big deal because this is supposed to stop sentry-immortal, but it's worth mentioning that you probably can't hold any +1 gateway pressure, with lower econ, and no tech done except banes (not even ling speed). The build is just hard tech to bane drops, and I don't think you can consistently break a Parting sentry-immortal attack with 12-16 banes, though I concede that it's possible. But you cut corners almost like a nydus all-in, except you have an even riskier single shot (bane drop) and your army is also weak as a result of fast tech while still going 3hatch (i.e. you have no army because you went tech AND econ). Ling upgrades way late, finishing at 11:40, waaaay too late for anything ever, sen's is done at what, 10:00? 10:30? and even then it was a nail-biter. Sooo.... until you can show me that the bane drops is like 95% success at breaking sentry immortal, like he splits sentries against the bane bombs and reinforces with +1 zealots and you still win, I don't buy it. It's too all-in, and commits from so early on that if he does anything else, you're screwed. thanks for the reply i will have to get some econ benchmarks together. I feel like your point about 7-8:30 attacks is mute since a normal fast 3 hatch has to deviate too. I think banelings do work well verse sentry builds based only on watching dimaga ladder VODs but maybe you are right about protoss just not playing properly. I havn't checked when sens upgrades finish or am really sure what your reffering to but i assume he is going melee/cara in ZvP and finishing a lot ealier than 11:40. I delayed them because the only upgrade people seem to get before that is +1 ranged which isnt necisary with baneling drops (assuming they are good enough defence). I guess i sort of assumed that upgrades arent nescicary when you are using banelings to get rid of sentries and zealots so that lings can just overwhealm immortals and stalkers.
Regarding the 7:00-8:30 attacks, I'm saying that normal 3hatch can deviate and survive, I am concerned that you can't. But as you meant to say, and I suggested myself, it's mostly moot.
I have only seen Dimaga use it and lose, iirc. I believe I'm thinking of early NASL season 4 (this season). Can you point me to a VOD of his with some wins?
I really should check this, but I remember thinking Sen went ling speed, lair, +1/+1. The intention was clearly to get it as late as possible to maximize 3hatch econ, but have it in time for the big fight.
You could be right about the bane drops wiping the floor with sentries and zealots. Certainly sentries should get seriously decimated. But I always feel like banes don't trade efficiently with zealots, and it won't be too many warpins before you're staring down a handful of fresh zealots with no banes ready to go. I'm really hoping to see an example where threatening bane drops forces the immortal sentry ball to scatter, then lings run in the gaps, FFs go down to desperately try to hold it off, then banes start dropping and it's a massacre. But I just don't see it.
But yeah post/PM me some dimaga VODs, I'd appreciate it.
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On November 20 2012 15:18 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 08:28 Turbogangsta wrote:On November 20 2012 07:59 6xFPCs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 20 2012 07:22 Turbogangsta wrote:Hi i was looking for feedback on a build ive been fleshing out, inspired by dimaga and standard ZvP. Assume standard FFE from toss and fast 3 hatch from zerg. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=htmlI got a bit carried away with the planning of the build all the way into the late game but i mainly want feed back for the mid game. The baneling drops are supposed to sink up with any sentry gateway or sentry immortal pushes. Its more or less a skeleton build for a very passive game that is supposed to cover all your bases. I feel like the drone count may suffer a bit and the zerg is vunerable for a window between 10mins and 12 mins to a gateway all in (although perhaps having banelings in this window will be a stepping stone until the upgrades and infestors pop). This build should hard counter any DT builds and any forcefield reliant builds. Any feedback at all is welcome. Initial impressions: Econ looks kinda bad due to beeline for tech. gas at 4:10? Lair 5:30? I don't believe you actually have enough stuff to stop sentry-immortal, even assuming you take down half the sentries with bane bombs. I mean, you have drop, but at what cost? And it's all invested in having bane drops, and anything baneling-based is pretty iffy against any toss units. I also think you look super vulnerable between 7:00 and 8:30, which I guess isn't a big deal because this is supposed to stop sentry-immortal, but it's worth mentioning that you probably can't hold any +1 gateway pressure, with lower econ, and no tech done except banes (not even ling speed). The build is just hard tech to bane drops, and I don't think you can consistently break a Parting sentry-immortal attack with 12-16 banes, though I concede that it's possible. But you cut corners almost like a nydus all-in, except you have an even riskier single shot (bane drop) and your army is also weak as a result of fast tech while still going 3hatch (i.e. you have no army because you went tech AND econ). Ling upgrades way late, finishing at 11:40, waaaay too late for anything ever, sen's is done at what, 10:00? 10:30? and even then it was a nail-biter. Sooo.... until you can show me that the bane drops is like 95% success at breaking sentry immortal, like he splits sentries against the bane bombs and reinforces with +1 zealots and you still win, I don't buy it. It's too all-in, and commits from so early on that if he does anything else, you're screwed. thanks for the reply i will have to get some econ benchmarks together. I feel like your point about 7-8:30 attacks is mute since a normal fast 3 hatch has to deviate too. I think banelings do work well verse sentry builds based only on watching dimaga ladder VODs but maybe you are right about protoss just not playing properly. I havn't checked when sens upgrades finish or am really sure what your reffering to but i assume he is going melee/cara in ZvP and finishing a lot ealier than 11:40. I delayed them because the only upgrade people seem to get before that is +1 ranged which isnt necisary with baneling drops (assuming they are good enough defence). I guess i sort of assumed that upgrades arent nescicary when you are using banelings to get rid of sentries and zealots so that lings can just overwhealm immortals and stalkers. Regarding the 7:00-8:30 attacks, I'm saying that normal 3hatch can deviate and survive, I am concerned that you can't. But as you meant to say, and I suggested myself, it's mostly moot. I have only seen Dimaga use it and lose, iirc. I believe I'm thinking of early NASL season 4 (this season). Can you point me to a VOD of his with some wins? I really should check this, but I remember thinking Sen went ling speed, lair, +1/+1. The intention was clearly to get it as late as possible to maximize 3hatch econ, but have it in time for the big fight. You could be right about the bane drops wiping the floor with sentries and zealots. Certainly sentries should get seriously decimated. But I always feel like banes don't trade efficiently with zealots, and it won't be too many warpins before you're staring down a handful of fresh zealots with no banes ready to go. I'm really hoping to see an example where threatening bane drops forces the immortal sentry ball to scatter, then lings run in the gaps, FFs go down to desperately try to hold it off, then banes start dropping and it's a massacre. But I just don't see it. But yeah post/PM me some dimaga VODs, I'd appreciate it.
There are Dimaga VoDs of him winning with this against sentry immortal, but that was against the older, later version of the build. His drop tech would not be done, and his 1/1 would JUST be finishing at the time that the current wonwonwon hits in the natural. Since he skips a RW and goes pure ling bling drop, he'd probably have to sac his natural and his third while waiting for his drop tech to finish, then load up in his main and try to kill the army then, somehow. But then after killing the natural and third the Toss could just go home...
So no, I don't think that style is efficient.
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quick/stupid question regarding magic boxing.
how do i magic box and then focus fire, specifically regarding thors? i can get the magic box down, but when i want them to focus down thors they clump together again.
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On November 20 2012 17:11 kangsauce wrote:
quick/stupid question regarding magic boxing.
how do i magic box and then focus fire, specifically regarding thors? i can get the magic box down, but when i want them to focus down thors they clump together again.
I'm assuming you go muta vs mech, like I do? :p
Err, magic box, then fly over the thor and hold position. If there are multiple thors, when you hold position originally, hold down on the H key (or whatever key you may have your hold position binded to). You can then click from thor to thor while holding down H, and the mutas will stay in the magic box formation.
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On November 20 2012 04:20 Azoryen wrote:
I think one of the most important aspects of SC is to create routines because they playing much faster.
However I find it hard to do so with zerg being the reactionary race.
Do you think zerg must be more flexible with his builds/routines than other races?
How do you manage to create your own routines with zerg?
Do you have very detailed builds/strategies going deep into midgame or you just go with the flow of the game after the first minutes?
Zerg has it's own routines as well, if you look at some high level streams, you will see the same patterns through all the games, even tough, they do different strategies. You have to be reactive as all races, you have to scout and you have to do the right things at the right time. Doesn't sound very routine-ish, but it actually is. You usually don't have build orders deep into the midgame, that is true, but you still have guidelines for strategies. (Which are waaay better than BO's imo). For mutas in ZvZ you know when to make the lair (6:00 - 6:30), when to take gases, etc, etc. These are routines. They will get better with every game you play.
Thus .. as stupid as it sounds, you have routines to play the game, but you play with the flow of the game ... It's everything just experience.
Don't know if the message of my post came across, sorry!
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On November 20 2012 07:59 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 07:22 Turbogangsta wrote:Hi i was looking for feedback on a build ive been fleshing out, inspired by dimaga and standard ZvP. Assume standard FFE from toss and fast 3 hatch from zerg. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=htmlI got a bit carried away with the planning of the build all the way into the late game but i mainly want feed back for the mid game. The baneling drops are supposed to sink up with any sentry gateway or sentry immortal pushes. Its more or less a skeleton build for a very passive game that is supposed to cover all your bases. I feel like the drone count may suffer a bit and the zerg is vunerable for a window between 10mins and 12 mins to a gateway all in (although perhaps having banelings in this window will be a stepping stone until the upgrades and infestors pop). This build should hard counter any DT builds and any forcefield reliant builds. Any feedback at all is welcome. Initial impressions: Econ looks kinda bad due to beeline for tech. gas at 4:10? Lair 5:30? I don't believe you actually have enough stuff to stop sentry-immortal, even assuming you take down half the sentries with bane bombs. I mean, you have drop, but at what cost? And it's all invested in having bane drops, and anything baneling-based is pretty iffy against any toss units. I also think you look super vulnerable between 7:00 and 8:30, which I guess isn't a big deal because this is supposed to stop sentry-immortal, but it's worth mentioning that you probably can't hold any +1 gateway pressure, with lower econ, and no tech done except banes (not even ling speed). The build is just hard tech to bane drops, and I don't think you can consistently break a Parting sentry-immortal attack with 12-16 banes, though I concede that it's possible. But you cut corners almost like a nydus all-in, except you have an even riskier single shot (bane drop) and your army is also weak as a result of fast tech while still going 3hatch (i.e. you have no army because you went tech AND econ). Ling upgrades way late, finishing at 11:40, waaaay too late for anything ever, sen's is done at what, 10:00? 10:30? and even then it was a nail-biter. Sooo.... until you can show me that the bane drops is like 95% success at breaking sentry immortal, like he splits sentries against the bane bombs and reinforces with +1 zealots and you still win, I don't buy it. It's too all-in, and commits from so early on that if he does anything else, you're screwed.
You've got a point about the bane drops being kind of iffy against toss units, but if executed correctly, the pressure is on the toss to minimize the damage of it. VortiX tried to drop near Grubby's 4th like 4x in a row last night, but was dropping too many on the nexus. Ended up taking out the nexus a few times but they would have been better spent on diminishing that army. Any banes that came close though, Grubby just blinked his stalkers away. The end result was a delay on Grubby's 4th getting established, and then VortiX getting supply blocked because Grubby ended up chasing his OLs. If I recall correctly I think Grubby won that game to tie it 1-1 in the series because he pushed right when festors were popping out and were able to kill them off pretty easily and VortiX didn't have the units to support his blords and they died pretty easily.
EDIT: Just kind of commenting since that game is fresh in my mind :D
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I'm a gold player and just have a quick question about ZVP. So I just played a ZVP where I finally made it to BL/Corr/Infestors but I noticed that my fungals don't land on time. Stalkers would've already blinked under my BLs. There were times I did manage to catch some Stalkers but the majority of them time, Stalkers get the blink on me. So my question is what is the Infestor's role in this composition? Is it mostly to fungal or spawn ITs?
I hear all the time Stalkers become useless one a fungal hits them since they can't blink but it hasn't really panned out that way. Like how do you engage with your army? Thanks!! 
BTW, I just started using infestors so I'm not to suave with them. I'm kind of focusing on one spell for each matchup until and can better use them.
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On November 21 2012 00:37 DarK[A] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 07:59 6xFPCs wrote:On November 20 2012 07:22 Turbogangsta wrote:Hi i was looking for feedback on a build ive been fleshing out, inspired by dimaga and standard ZvP. Assume standard FFE from toss and fast 3 hatch from zerg. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=htmlI got a bit carried away with the planning of the build all the way into the late game but i mainly want feed back for the mid game. The baneling drops are supposed to sink up with any sentry gateway or sentry immortal pushes. Its more or less a skeleton build for a very passive game that is supposed to cover all your bases. I feel like the drone count may suffer a bit and the zerg is vunerable for a window between 10mins and 12 mins to a gateway all in (although perhaps having banelings in this window will be a stepping stone until the upgrades and infestors pop). This build should hard counter any DT builds and any forcefield reliant builds. Any feedback at all is welcome. Initial impressions: Econ looks kinda bad due to beeline for tech. gas at 4:10? Lair 5:30? I don't believe you actually have enough stuff to stop sentry-immortal, even assuming you take down half the sentries with bane bombs. I mean, you have drop, but at what cost? And it's all invested in having bane drops, and anything baneling-based is pretty iffy against any toss units. I also think you look super vulnerable between 7:00 and 8:30, which I guess isn't a big deal because this is supposed to stop sentry-immortal, but it's worth mentioning that you probably can't hold any +1 gateway pressure, with lower econ, and no tech done except banes (not even ling speed). The build is just hard tech to bane drops, and I don't think you can consistently break a Parting sentry-immortal attack with 12-16 banes, though I concede that it's possible. But you cut corners almost like a nydus all-in, except you have an even riskier single shot (bane drop) and your army is also weak as a result of fast tech while still going 3hatch (i.e. you have no army because you went tech AND econ). Ling upgrades way late, finishing at 11:40, waaaay too late for anything ever, sen's is done at what, 10:00? 10:30? and even then it was a nail-biter. Sooo.... until you can show me that the bane drops is like 95% success at breaking sentry immortal, like he splits sentries against the bane bombs and reinforces with +1 zealots and you still win, I don't buy it. It's too all-in, and commits from so early on that if he does anything else, you're screwed. You've got a point about the bane drops being kind of iffy against toss units, but if executed correctly, the pressure is on the toss to minimize the damage of it. VortiX tried to drop near Grubby's 4th like 4x in a row last night, but was dropping too many on the nexus. Ended up taking out the nexus a few times but they would have been better spent on diminishing that army. Any banes that came close though, Grubby just blinked his stalkers away. The end result was a delay on Grubby's 4th getting established, and then VortiX getting supply blocked because Grubby ended up chasing his OLs. If I recall correctly I think Grubby won that game to tie it 1-1 in the series because he pushed right when festors were popping out and were able to kill them off pretty easily and VortiX didn't have the units to support his blords and they died pretty easily. EDIT: Just kind of commenting since that game is fresh in my mind :D
I missed vortix's games, but that sounds exactly like how it will usually play out. I want to point out that you need three pretty solid bane hits on a sentry to kill it. That's 50% more time for sentries to split than for marines, and it makes the difference between kills and red/yellow health sentries. The extra dropped bane will rarely connect well, especially for a Parting-style push with the warp prism, meaning that he's never looking away from his army to get the warp-in. Banes just don't have the staying power you need to fight a toss army, and their burst and AoE are just so much less useful than against zerg or terran.
Definitely the onus is on the person suggesting bane drops to demonstrate that it actually works, more so than the average build.
On November 20 2012 17:02 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 15:18 6xFPCs wrote:On November 20 2012 08:28 Turbogangsta wrote:On November 20 2012 07:59 6xFPCs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 20 2012 07:22 Turbogangsta wrote:Hi i was looking for feedback on a build ive been fleshing out, inspired by dimaga and standard ZvP. Assume standard FFE from toss and fast 3 hatch from zerg. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AgejQxWGYVMxdFBFc0xJUFBUREk4c2FuaEdKaTQ5MUE&output=htmlI got a bit carried away with the planning of the build all the way into the late game but i mainly want feed back for the mid game. The baneling drops are supposed to sink up with any sentry gateway or sentry immortal pushes. Its more or less a skeleton build for a very passive game that is supposed to cover all your bases. I feel like the drone count may suffer a bit and the zerg is vunerable for a window between 10mins and 12 mins to a gateway all in (although perhaps having banelings in this window will be a stepping stone until the upgrades and infestors pop). This build should hard counter any DT builds and any forcefield reliant builds. Any feedback at all is welcome. Initial impressions: Econ looks kinda bad due to beeline for tech. gas at 4:10? Lair 5:30? I don't believe you actually have enough stuff to stop sentry-immortal, even assuming you take down half the sentries with bane bombs. I mean, you have drop, but at what cost? And it's all invested in having bane drops, and anything baneling-based is pretty iffy against any toss units. I also think you look super vulnerable between 7:00 and 8:30, which I guess isn't a big deal because this is supposed to stop sentry-immortal, but it's worth mentioning that you probably can't hold any +1 gateway pressure, with lower econ, and no tech done except banes (not even ling speed). The build is just hard tech to bane drops, and I don't think you can consistently break a Parting sentry-immortal attack with 12-16 banes, though I concede that it's possible. But you cut corners almost like a nydus all-in, except you have an even riskier single shot (bane drop) and your army is also weak as a result of fast tech while still going 3hatch (i.e. you have no army because you went tech AND econ). Ling upgrades way late, finishing at 11:40, waaaay too late for anything ever, sen's is done at what, 10:00? 10:30? and even then it was a nail-biter. Sooo.... until you can show me that the bane drops is like 95% success at breaking sentry immortal, like he splits sentries against the bane bombs and reinforces with +1 zealots and you still win, I don't buy it. It's too all-in, and commits from so early on that if he does anything else, you're screwed. thanks for the reply i will have to get some econ benchmarks together. I feel like your point about 7-8:30 attacks is mute since a normal fast 3 hatch has to deviate too. I think banelings do work well verse sentry builds based only on watching dimaga ladder VODs but maybe you are right about protoss just not playing properly. I havn't checked when sens upgrades finish or am really sure what your reffering to but i assume he is going melee/cara in ZvP and finishing a lot ealier than 11:40. I delayed them because the only upgrade people seem to get before that is +1 ranged which isnt necisary with baneling drops (assuming they are good enough defence). I guess i sort of assumed that upgrades arent nescicary when you are using banelings to get rid of sentries and zealots so that lings can just overwhealm immortals and stalkers. Regarding the 7:00-8:30 attacks, I'm saying that normal 3hatch can deviate and survive, I am concerned that you can't. But as you meant to say, and I suggested myself, it's mostly moot. I have only seen Dimaga use it and lose, iirc. I believe I'm thinking of early NASL season 4 (this season). Can you point me to a VOD of his with some wins? I really should check this, but I remember thinking Sen went ling speed, lair, +1/+1. The intention was clearly to get it as late as possible to maximize 3hatch econ, but have it in time for the big fight. You could be right about the bane drops wiping the floor with sentries and zealots. Certainly sentries should get seriously decimated. But I always feel like banes don't trade efficiently with zealots, and it won't be too many warpins before you're staring down a handful of fresh zealots with no banes ready to go. I'm really hoping to see an example where threatening bane drops forces the immortal sentry ball to scatter, then lings run in the gaps, FFs go down to desperately try to hold it off, then banes start dropping and it's a massacre. But I just don't see it. But yeah post/PM me some dimaga VODs, I'd appreciate it. There are Dimaga VoDs of him winning with this against sentry immortal, but that was against the older, later version of the build. His drop tech would not be done, and his 1/1 would JUST be finishing at the time that the current wonwonwon hits in the natural. Since he skips a RW and goes pure ling bling drop, he'd probably have to sac his natural and his third while waiting for his drop tech to finish, then load up in his main and try to kill the army then, somehow. But then after killing the natural and third the Toss could just go home... So no, I don't think that style is efficient.
That's my impression of dimaga's zvp as well, and turbo says there are no good vods of dima winning with bane drops against sentry immortal.
Parting has refined sentry immortal to be a major threat, instead of another option, and banes just won't cut it, especially because they can neither burst it down successfully, nor outlast it through reinforcements.
At this point, this somewhat dark point in zvp history, I believe that if you 3hatch against toss FFE, early 1-1 lings are the key, and you need 2-3 spines at the third, sen-style. In order to get these down at not be economically behind, you need to delay his push by threatening with lings, almost from the moment he moves out. Certainly this is important because hyun has shown us (against finale, anyway, in IPL FC) that if you catch him unaware in the initial push, before his first outside warp-in, toss can auto-lose by losing a bunch of sentries. It's also important to bait some FF, though I am struggling to really characterize how important that energy really is. Sen seems to be ok with a handful of ling losses, but he definitely does not commit while he knows there is energy to negate a surround.
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On November 21 2012 05:59 learning88 wrote:I'm a gold player and just have a quick question about ZVP. So I just played a ZVP where I finally made it to BL/Corr/Infestors but I noticed that my fungals don't land on time. Stalkers would've already blinked under my BLs. There were times I did manage to catch some Stalkers but the majority of them time, Stalkers get the blink on me. So my question is what is the Infestor's role in this composition? Is it mostly to fungal or spawn ITs? I hear all the time Stalkers become useless one a fungal hits them since they can't blink but it hasn't really panned out that way. Like how do you engage with your army? Thanks!! BTW, I just started using infestors so I'm not to suave with them. I'm kind of focusing on one spell for each matchup until and can better use them.
The newer thing to do (past 4 months or so?) is drop a few ITs just ahead of the BLs (ahead=towards stalker threat). This ensures that if he does blink, you have extra dps to kill the stalkers before they pick off a lot of BLs. Pre-emptive fungal is still something you're aiming for, but those extra ITs seem to be the way to go. Hyun does this for sure in FC (I can't emphasize enough how nice it is to have one zerg showing us his play week after week). I believe violet did this against hero in a long game on entombed, the very long one that went all the way up to carriers, and I think it was a big reason why hero could never really take wear down the zerg army.
Keep in mind that using a pack of adrenal glands-upgraded lings to punish a stalker blink is also a good way to add dps. But yeah try using screening with 3-4 ITs.
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On November 20 2012 17:48 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 17:11 kangsauce wrote:
quick/stupid question regarding magic boxing.
how do i magic box and then focus fire, specifically regarding thors? i can get the magic box down, but when i want them to focus down thors they clump together again. I'm assuming you go muta vs mech, like I do? :p Err, magic box, then fly over the thor and hold position. If there are multiple thors, when you hold position originally, hold down on the H key (or whatever key you may have your hold position binded to). You can then click from thor to thor while holding down H, and the mutas will stay in the magic box formation.
awesome thanks
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EPT
