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What's the most noob friendly unit composition for ZvT?
I believe the main choices revolve around either mutas or infestors, which are both micro intensive and hard to use effectively.
I often feel that my 100/100 or 100/150 units are not doing enough for the cost and I'd do better if I simply used those resources on more lings/banes.
It's so easy to loose 5 infestors (worth 750 gas !!!) with little damage done and with mutas I don't have enough multi-tasking to do constant harassment while macroing well.
I usually end up going for a few mutas with my main army just to have something that kills medivacs and they help with drops, but I don't harass much with them.
Which of the 2 units is easier to use and is it even worth getting any of them in the low leagues (bronze-plat)?
Seems a bit unfair that P has immortals and colossus which add a lot to any composition even with zero micro.
Z may be OP at pro level, but P is definetly much easier at low leagues.
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Well, if you're in the bottom leagues ( bronze silver ), you should be fine just going ling bling and eventually get ultras.
Mutas arnt that good in an actual engagement, because people have marines and tanks now, and marines completely own mutas. If you can harrass good, they're good.
Infestors however just kill bio so fast if you can do proper fungals. Ling(bling)infestor is really strong. You should just practise it enough and eventually you can use them pretty well.
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On November 16 2012 01:50 tehcaekftw wrote:
Well, if you're in the bottom leagues ( bronze silver ), you should be fine just going ling bling and eventually get ultras.
My problem with that is the lack of AA against banshees and medivacs.
That's why I usually get a few mutas, I hate letting those medivacs retreating unpunished when I clear all his ground forces.
I tried using fungal/inf.terrans to kill air forces but I find myself staring at them waiting to place more fungals and this screws my macro badly. 
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On November 16 2012 02:01 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 01:50 tehcaekftw wrote:
Well, if you're in the bottom leagues ( bronze silver ), you should be fine just going ling bling and eventually get ultras.
My problem with that is the lack of AA against banshees and medivacs. That's why I usually get a few mutas, I hate letting those medivacs retreating unpunished when I clear all his ground forces. I tried using fungal/inf.terrans to kill air forces but I find myself staring at them waiting to place more fungals and this screws my macro badly.
For the most part you can ignore air. I think heavy ling/bling is very strong played properly; queens/mutas are the easiest way to deal with banshees. Just build a handful of mutas for banshees and use them to pick off banshees after the ground forces are gone (preferably you'd go in at the same time with your ground forces, but this can be hard to manage). You can ignore medivacs for the most part. It's not that important to kill them, though it obviously helps, but it's more important to go back and macro.
Roaches are also a low-league friendly unit. However, they're pretty bad vs marine/tank, at least without ling/bling support. Still, ling/bling/roach is a pretty decent combo if you have problems with your macro - roaches are much easier to macro than pure ling/bling, and they give a nice tankiness to your army.
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On November 16 2012 03:13 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 02:01 Azoryen wrote:On November 16 2012 01:50 tehcaekftw wrote:
Well, if you're in the bottom leagues ( bronze silver ), you should be fine just going ling bling and eventually get ultras.
My problem with that is the lack of AA against banshees and medivacs. That's why I usually get a few mutas, I hate letting those medivacs retreating unpunished when I clear all his ground forces. I tried using fungal/inf.terrans to kill air forces but I find myself staring at them waiting to place more fungals and this screws my macro badly. For the most part you can ignore air. I think heavy ling/bling is very strong played properly; queens/mutas are the easiest way to deal with banshees. Just build a handful of mutas for banshees and use them to pick off banshees after the ground forces are gone (preferably you'd go in at the same time with your ground forces, but this can be hard to manage). You can ignore medivacs for the most part. It's not that important to kill them, though it obviously helps, but it's more important to go back and macro. Roaches are also a low-league friendly unit. However, they're pretty bad vs marine/tank, at least without ling/bling support. Still, ling/bling/roach is a pretty decent combo if you have problems with your macro - roaches are much easier to macro than pure ling/bling, and they give a nice tankiness to your army.
I'm thinking: could there be any advantage of using corruptors instead of mutas if all I'm doing is use them as AA against banshees and medivacs? I mean, since I'm not doing much harassment with the mutas, maybe the corruptors would do the same job with more dps for same gas cost?
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On November 15 2012 14:50 6xFPCs wrote:
RE: the replay vs hwangsin, his build is funny because he goes for two tech paths really fast (MS, then immortal, then colo).
[...]
Gosh I talk a lot. Final note, this fast MS style is good for Ohana because it's hard to break a three-base opponent, so it's possibly a Ohana-specific style made to fend off three-base fast BL play with more finesse than the colo timing that gets used on most maps.
So I just watched NASL W9 D4 VIBE vs Hwangsin, Game 1 on Ohana, and hwangsin did the exact same thing he tried against you--fast MS into double robo immortal into colossi. Spoilers JIC.
+ Show Spoiler +Hwangsin basically lost to ling runbys and corruptors sniping the MS. Apparently he did not have the minerals to pump probes AND support dual robo AND have a zealot at the wall, because the runby happened a total of three times. Plus, he had to cancel the third the first time due to lings as well. It was extremely one-sided in favor of VIBE.
Basically, being super active with lings seems to shut this style down. And because of the lack of stalkers, just 5-6 corruptors will trash the MS before the third can finish.
The worst part about this funny MS play? It's generally accepted (at least on TL) that fast MS into turtle air play is just asking for ling-corruptor to break the third. So hwangsin-style fast MS is already countered because the previous fast MS-based strategy was "solved" by zergs going ling-corruptor.
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On November 16 2012 04:28 Azoryen wrote:
I'm thinking: could there be any advantage of using corruptors instead of mutas if all I'm doing is use them as AA against banshees and medivacs? I mean, since I'm not doing much harassment with the mutas, maybe the corruptors would do the same job with more dps for same gas cost?
This is an interesting idea; you can do this, and have them patrol some of your bases for drop protection and such when you're not fighting.
However, mutas basically force turrets, which can be nice, and threaten harass. They're also faster. However, corruptors are more durable than mutas and have longer range. If you were to build corruptors to counter their air, I wouldn't recommend more than 4-6 unless they're really heavy on their air units.
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Mutas are much much better for drop deffence then corruptors. They are faster and can shoot down if any units make it out of the dropship. The advantage of corruptors having more health doesnt come into play verse medivacs haha and the larger dps from corruptors is negated by the downtime corruptors will have flying over to the dropship. I would always prioritise mutas over corruptors for drop defence, but better yet just use spores and spines.
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I recently got promoted to Gold and now I'm actually facing some mech Terrans. My response to them would be ling/roach/infestor --> BL/corr/infestor right?
What is my response to FE from Terran when I FE myself? Do I take a third, tech, early rush? I'm starting to see Terran FE often and then a huge wall off with like 3 rax (not sure if this is standard since I don't really keep up with the meta too much)
What do I do when my Terran opponent is making rines/hellions? Doesn't that kind of counter roach/ling since hellions kill lings and rines kill roaches?
Also, I've steered clear of banes because I try to tech to infestors FAST so I bank gas. Am I missing the usefulness of banes or can they be replaced with infestors for fungal? I've noticed that once Terran has a sizeable army or even okay micro, banes are ineffective due to kiting.
I'm really at a loss for ZVT since my unit compositions swing heavily into different techs that are easily countered if I make the wrong units.
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On November 16 2012 15:00 learning88 wrote:
I recently got promoted to Gold and now I'm actually facing some mech Terrans. My response to them would be ling/roach/infestor --> BL/corr/infestor right?
What is my response to FE from Terran when I FE myself? Do I take a third, tech, early rush? I'm starting to see Terran FE often and then a huge wall off with like 3 rax (not sure if this is standard since I don't really keep up with the meta too much)
What do I do when my Terran opponent is making rines/hellions? Doesn't that kind of counter roach/ling since hellions kill lings and rines kill roaches?
Also, I've steered clear of banes because I try to tech to infestors FAST so I bank gas. Am I missing the usefulness of banes or can they be replaced with infestors for fungal? I've noticed that once Terran has a sizeable army or even okay micro, banes are ineffective due to kiting.
I'm really at a loss for ZVT since my unit compositions swing heavily into different techs that are easily countered if I make the wrong units.
Replays would be nice.
I recommend either taking a 5:30 third off a 6 queen opener, then double gas immediately. Double evo when you start speed (wall off natural), get a spine at natural and third, and a spore in each mineral line. 4 queens + reactive slowlings is enough to hold anything that can come before speed, although baneling nest helps vs bio-centric 2 base all ins. Basically take a fast third, get speed, +1/+1, and THEN lair (should be past 70 supply when you start lair). Then transition into mass ling/infestor/(bane), and I recommend either fast ultras or broodlords; both styles work. If he's on 4 rax then get a bane nest before lair, and mass lings before droning your third, but after droning your main + natural (2 gas total until you start lair).
Treat marine/hellion like pure marine. If you mean 2 base timings then use queen/ling to defend, try to be careful with your lings. You want your queens absorbing all the damage while the lings don't get shot at. This means flanks, etc. Don't worry about critical mass; 24 lings and 4 queens will kill most of a ~14 marine ~4 hellion timing. Also roaches shut this down cold; roaches are actually really good against unupgraded marines, and hellions obviously. I don't recommend them though, as it's a big investment that's not worth it if he opens, say, hellion/banshee 3OC. Just make it so the hellions are attacking roaches and you'll be fine.
Don't skip banes, especially in gold league. Don't forget bane speed. Don't forget creep spread. You need banes against marine-based armies (rine/tank, rine/rauder, etc). Fungals are great, but with minimal spreading the fungal actually does nothing except use a bit of medivac energy. 2 banelings will kill the marines instantly, while fungal is 'countered' by medivacs.
Just try to play a safe infestor/ling turtle, morph banes if he moves out (never go past 20-30 unless he's like pure marine), and try to get fast infestor/broodlord. Start hive and spire when infestation pit finishes, take your fourth, don't drone your fourth until you feel safe against any 3 base timing. Then learn how to use infestor/blord effectively 
http://drop.sc/276161
I believe this is a game vs mech I played today, where I make a (pretty insane IMO) comeback from behind in the early game. ALWAYS wall off vs hellions; I tried Life's speedling timing, but he saw the fast gas and just turtled so I did no damage...not sure how Life does it, guess I'm back to the VODs?
Maybe I was just lucky that he had no AA, but I had some decently controlled engagements, and my macro was far better than usual (despite not getting to drone my third until super late because of hellions). Whatever, drops are good, roaches are good, and I have some awesome infestor/blord/corruptor vs thor/scv/hellion/viking/raven(I think, not sure).
The things I could've improved on:
-Drop WAY more, be an aggressive motherfucker with the drops
-Double spire for double air ups; I think it was my 0/0 air vs his 2/2 or 3/3 ground
-Lose less infestors to tanks >_>
I recommend watching it, at least to see my opener and how I enter the midgame (and react to scouting vs mech). I only have like 200 APM, so I missed a LOT of micro opportunities. Also forgot burrow until lategame.
My closing note:
ALWAYS get burrow. Every game. No matter what. Burrowed infestor harass is sweet. If you burrow and save even ONE infestor (say vs Terrans who focus them down), it has paid for itself and more. If you burrow a ling and deny mining for a minute, that's up to 1k minerals and 200 gas...just from the 25 mineral ling being a baller. Burrow always pays for itself, so always get it
If I missed anything or you'd like some more clarification, feel free to ask again! Also read Belial's ZvT guide if you haven't already, it's pretty up-to-date and covers more than I ever could with just one post.
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Also 6xFPS....fuck. I swear I typed an essay yesterday in response to your post, thought I double posted, and apparently it's not there O_O my internet is super screwy. Pretty sure the TL;DR was thanks for the advice and I'll be sure to scout more (didn't realize it was double robo and no twilight, thought it was just 1) and react to such builds with a ling/corruptor flood. That's what I do vs mass air as you said, and it's really effective. As a sidenote, ultra/bane rapes cannon-based turtling :D So much fun to literally manually detonate beside where the cloaked nexus is...so much rage!
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Infestors
Hi all, I'm in gold league (just got promoted last season, yay!), and up till now I have been meticulously avoiding making infestors or mutalisks because I simply don't have the bandwidth to do any intricate micro. My main thing has been building up an army and 1a-ing to victory. However, I've been wanting to incorporate infestors into my gameplay, partly because 1a isn't quite as effective anymore, and more importantly, for the fun of it now that I don't feel quite so overwhelmed. My problem is that I don't know what mentality to approach them with. Let me elaborate.
ZvP
ZvP has been easy till now because nobody knew how to forcefield before. Now, however, my roaches end up getting trapped. I get destroyed by sentry-immortal all-ins. But at this level,it is conceivable that I could have infestors by the time it arrives (things go a bit slower down here). But if I do, what should I do with the infestors? Fungal? IT? What should their overarching goal be in the scheme of the battle? Also, in against big colossus balls, what should their role because my roaches are about to evaporate?
ZvT(bio)
Against this, I've just been going heavily upgraded ling-bling, with the aim of base denying, and it generally works. I've started using mutalisks to shoot down medivacs. If I have infestors instead of mutas, how do I deal with drops? Also, for larger engagements, my infestors just seem to get gunned down very quickly. I also have problems keeping the infestors together with the rest of the faster moving army.
ZvT(mech)
I generally end up with some roaches while I mad-rush to brood lords. I've been using mutas here too, not because I know what to do with them, but because it seems to cause the other player to overmake Thors, and my roach-ling can overrun it. I'm not exactly sure where infestors would fit into it, especially since I would likely face a much more tank-heavy army.
ZvZ
The rule here seems to be... whoever makes infestors loses. Big roach armies, with hydras for added DPS seems to be what works best, because neither of us have any idea what we're doing anyway. If a lot of ITs are thrown down, I just retreat, and engage again when they are gone... seems pointless. When facing off against muta play, I can't for the life of me catch mutas. I'd maybe land one fungal, but my timing is out and they escape before I can finish them off. And I'm so afraid that my infestors will die to the muta ball, so I move them away, and that probably delays the next fungal. Having infestors in the right place are also a problem, since most of my scouting overlords are usually dead.
Any insights would be greatly appreciated. And remember--I'm a noob, so don't assume I know the very obvious!
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On November 16 2012 15:33 Mavvie wrote:
Also 6xFPS....fuck. I swear I typed an essay yesterday in response to your post, thought I double posted, and apparently it's not there O_O my internet is super screwy. Pretty sure the TL;DR was thanks for the advice and I'll be sure to scout more (didn't realize it was double robo and no twilight, thought it was just 1) and react to such builds with a ling/corruptor flood. That's what I do vs mass air as you said, and it's really effective. As a sidenote, ultra/bane rapes cannon-based turtling :D So much fun to literally manually detonate beside where the cloaked nexus is...so much rage!
No problem, and good to know we're on the same page, zvp-wise. That ultra-bane thing is vs turtle air, yes? Otherwise BLs remain the siege weapon of choice?
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^Yeah. Oh, only vs air of course. I mean it can work against 3 base colossus timings, but I wouldn't try it. Always broods
What do you do against gate-nexus openers? I feel like if I bank larvae for when my pool pops I win, but I don't like to bank larvae for my pool popping lol. I opened fast speed once and hit a speedling timing that did damage but didn't win, I guess that's what I should do? I remember reading it somewhere, but don't forget. I feel like if I go speed he can go forge before core, if I skip speed he can destroy me with stalkers by going core :S
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On November 17 2012 07:39 e-Goh wrote:
ZvZ
The rule here seems to be... whoever makes infestors loses. Big roach armies, with hydras for added DPS seems to be what works best, because neither of us have any idea what we're doing anyway. If a lot of ITs are thrown down, I just retreat, and engage again when they are gone... seems pointless. When facing off against muta play, I can't for the life of me catch mutas. I'd maybe land one fungal, but my timing is out and they escape before I can finish them off. And I'm so afraid that my infestors will die to the muta ball, so I move them away, and that probably delays the next fungal. Having infestors in the right place are also a problem, since most of my scouting overlords are usually dead.
Any insights would be greatly appreciated. And remember--I'm a noob, so don't assume I know the very obvious!
I am top gold league, hopefully plat soon, and I think ZvZ is my strongest match up, so while I don't have the advice of a masters player it is probably relevant to your level.
I think a roach(/hydra)/infester army will generally beat a roach/hydra army if played correctly. Using infested terrans aren't always great offensively, because like you said, you can just run away until they die. But if they are used in places where you can't retreat, such as in the enemies base, they can really swing the battle in your direction. They can also be great to buy yourself time if the enemy is in your own base by forcing a retreat. Some nicely placed fungals can stop your opponent from getting a good concave as well as do some nice damage, so the extra dps from the hydras will not be enough to compensate from the extra damage from infesters.
What I usually do is get 6-8 infestors (build pit as soon as lair finishes, start building them when pathogen glands has been researching for 30 seconds) and then start producing hyrdras, so I'll have a roach/hyrda/infestor army. I like going infesters first because it gives them more time to build up energy. As the game goes on it doesn't hurt to start getting a few more infesters, and getting burrow at some stage is important as well to stop them from getting picked off. If you let your infesters get killed easily you won't have enough roaches to deal with roach/hydra.
In regards to mutas, I still find it tricky countering them with infestors, but I find it helpful to leave 2-3 infesters in each of my bases when I am expecting them. When you fungal, look at the ground below the mutas to get a good aim. If you can fungal them while they are in range of some spores or queens the mutas will take a lot of damage and you can use your infestor's energy for chaining fungals instead of ITs. Otherwise, I usually throw down a few ITs first and then fungal, so the ITs are closer to hatching when my fungals finish. Getting burrow is very important as well, otherwise the mutas can just pick off your infestors while they are fungaled. You might see pros only getting 1-2 spores in each base, but in gold league it really doesn't hurt to get 3-5 until you are comfortable with infestors. Gold league players don't have great micro so they will likely lose a few mutas on their first fly over of your base. Scouting is very important, though. Surprise mutas are a lot harder to deal with.
I've found the easiest way to beat a player going mutas is to just use your infesters to prevent as much damage as possible, then move out with a decent sized roach army while putting down some spores. The other player will be too invested in mutas and will likely not have enough roaches to deal with your attack, especial if you litter their base with ITs. Don't be scared if the mutas are able to kill some drones or queens, they are a big investment and need to do a lot of damage to come out even. Take advantage of that and punish your opponent for it.
Again, I'm only gold as well so this advice isn't perfect, but it gets me a very good ZvZ winrate one I'm past the ling-flood stage.
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On November 17 2012 07:39 e-Goh wrote:
Infestors
Hi all, I'm in gold league (just got promoted last season, yay!), and up till now I have been meticulously avoiding making infestors or mutalisks because I simply don't have the bandwidth to do any intricate micro. My main thing has been building up an army and 1a-ing to victory. However, I've been wanting to incorporate infestors into my gameplay, partly because 1a isn't quite as effective anymore, and more importantly, for the fun of it now that I don't feel quite so overwhelmed. My problem is that I don't know what mentality to approach them with. Let me elaborate.
ZvP
ZvP has been easy till now because nobody knew how to forcefield before. Now, however, my roaches end up getting trapped. I get destroyed by sentry-immortal all-ins. But at this level,it is conceivable that I could have infestors by the time it arrives (things go a bit slower down here). But if I do, what should I do with the infestors? Fungal? IT? What should their overarching goal be in the scheme of the battle? Also, in against big colossus balls, what should their role because my roaches are about to evaporate?
Search for mavvie's anti-immortal sentry guide. But in short, you won't have infestors ready unless you can delay him quite a bit via harass or threatening runbys.
In general, ZvP infestor usage is fungal everything first, then spam ITs to surround. Then run.
Against colossi-heavy deathballs, you need corruptors. But your infestors will serve the same role, only you'll want to save an extra fungal to stop colossi from running away from corruptors.
ZvT(bio)
Against this, I've just been going heavily upgraded ling-bling, with the aim of base denying, and it generally works. I've started using mutalisks to shoot down medivacs. If I have infestors instead of mutas, how do I deal with drops? Also, for larger engagements, my infestors just seem to get gunned down very quickly. I also have problems keeping the infestors together with the rest of the faster moving army.
My preferred way to deal with drops (when playing infestor-ling) is to put up lots of spores. Lings are fast enough to run back to tangle with marines, and spores ensure that the medivac dies, which allows lings to trade evenly (no evac, no abusing chokes).
In general, keep infestors on a separate hotkey; force yourself to do that starting right now. That will solve both the random dying and the not keeping up.
Fungal packs of marines (and medivacs if they're around), and hang on to energy because another wave of marines is on the way. Drop a few ITs if you've cleaned up the marines, then fungal the medivacs after they pop.
ZvT(mech)
I generally end up with some roaches while I mad-rush to brood lords. I've been using mutas here too, not because I know what to do with them, but because it seems to cause the other player to overmake Thors, and my roach-ling can overrun it. I'm not exactly sure where infestors would fit into it, especially since I would likely face a much more tank-heavy army.
I don't support BLs vs mech, I think thors are just too good against everything when properly supported. I suggest upgraded roach-infestor, and fungal once into IT spam. I only use mutas for anti-banshee play, mech players tend to skip tanks and go straight to thors anyway, so roach is the favored path to abuse that.
Burrowed infestor play to cause friendly splash is good, just don't use more than one or two infestors at a time to do it. You can also use ITs to soak the first tank shots prior to rushing in with roaches.
ZvZ
The rule here seems to be... whoever makes infestors loses. Big roach armies, with hydras for added DPS seems to be what works best, because neither of us have any idea what we're doing anyway. If a lot of ITs are thrown down, I just retreat, and engage again when they are gone... seems pointless. When facing off against muta play, I can't for the life of me catch mutas. I'd maybe land one fungal, but my timing is out and they escape before I can finish them off. And I'm so afraid that my infestors will die to the muta ball, so I move them away, and that probably delays the next fungal. Having infestors in the right place are also a problem, since most of my scouting overlords are usually dead.
Any insights would be greatly appreciated. And remember--I'm a noob, so don't assume I know the very obvious!
First to make infestors as a giant timing without proper roach defense loses. You can't play it like a muta switch and spam infestors as soon as they'll spawn with pathogen glands energy. Add them when you can, not just because the tech is ready. Really, you only need one good fungal as he tries to break a ramp to thrash his roach timing. Roach hydra timings used to be considered the "counter" to roach infestor, but nowadays people are safe and don't add absurd numbers of infestors early, nor do they spike to 6 gas income and leave themselves with a gas bank. Continuing to add roaches while getting 2-3 infestors is safe, or so it seems, because no one tries roach-hydra timings anymore. This could also be because people tend to get a third before infestors now, too.
Again, infestor play is mostly fungal into IT spam, though fungal is actually quite powerful as straight dps on a clump of roaches or hydras. But the key difference is that you'll initially be attempting to zone off groups of roaches to prevent them from engaging with the rest of his army. If you catch 1/3 of his army with a fungal, and start attacking the other 2/3 with your whole army, out of range of the fungaled 1/3, the battle is--theoretically--a foregone conclusion.
I think that covers it. Keep in mind that infestors are probably the most key unit in the zerg arsenal. Learning to use them will be a world of difference.
p.s. Don't lose infestors. Burrow and run when you're out of energy.
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On November 17 2012 12:40 Mavvie wrote:^Yeah. Oh, only vs air of course. I mean it can work against 3 base colossus timings, but I wouldn't try it. Always broods What do you do against gate-nexus openers? I feel like if I bank larvae for when my pool pops I win, but I don't like to bank larvae for my pool popping lol. I opened fast speed once and hit a speedling timing that did damage but didn't win, I guess that's what I should do? I remember reading it somewhere, but don't forget. I feel like if I go speed he can go forge before core, if I skip speed he can destroy me with stalkers by going core :S
All this is based off my admittedly sketchy memory about gate FE, so someone let me know if I slipped up.
Gate openers are kind of silly, in my opinion, because they are like a transparent, slower econ version of FFE. They also die to 14/14 speedlings (as in, his nexus will be 2 minutes later than he wants), and generally have trouble against late speedlings (i.e. speed from the normal pool-hatch-gas) because they don't have the opportunity to grab fast +1 attack like FFE can. Removing that threat means speedlings will fare at least equally against anything early, so all you have to do is watch the front and drone/not-drone accordingly. Plus, speedlings mean zerg has map control, threatens runbys (sheth used to have awesome ZvP winrates because he is always ready to do a runby, and that's as close to autowin as you can hope for), and can see exactly what's going on at the front (making overlord scouting super easy).
You'll want to try and deny his expo, because it's pretty hard to hold a building nexus with no wall-off and only zealot-sentry against a ton of lings. IIRC, you just pump lings from when your natural pops (transfer some drones), and go for two rounds of lings at most (more than that means he probably has enough sentries to delay forever). Your goal is to have enough lings to either overwhelm the zealot-sentry force after it comes down the ramp, or just force a cancel and camp the spot as long as possible.
Forge before core should be seen by your first lings (forge at top of ramp, just poke in and see it), and you can either contest his initial cannon with pure ling (risky), or just note that he'll need to drop cannons and will have later tech, then sit back and take a third and drone for awhile. His +1 wep will be late, his nexus will be later than FFE, and you already have lings at the front watching everything. Nothing should take you by surprise, you should be 100% in control of the game because, well, speedlings.
Hm I'm trying to come up with an advantage that gate FE has over FFE, but I can't think of a single one. The theoretically faster tech (gate-nexus-core) actually ends up hitting at about the same time, I think, unless it's some super all-in version (in which case a one-base equivalent is probably superior). You'd have to ask a toss player to be sure, but certainly FFE replaced gate FE for a reason.
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Ok, noted.
How many lings do you make though? I need to force him to play not too greedy (like taking the nexus off one zealot), so when do I bank larvae? I feel like it's a coinflip; if I make 6-8 lings and he plays defensive then I'm behind, but if I make 2-4 lings and he plays greedy then I'm behind (the faster WG timings are insane). I guess I'll hope he scouts gas and goes core first, then I'll drone up and hope I'm not considerably behind.
How do I know what to look for against gate-nexus-core openers? Like I know to check for +1, chrono on WG, and the natural gas timings against standard FFE, but how is this affected by the gate-nex-core opener? His WG is something like 30 seconds faster, so do I need a 6:00 roach warren if he has no natural gas? Do I need to scout more aggressively to see +1 or something? So lost against these openers lol.
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United States41 Posts
Hey im a Silver league Zerg and my question is very simple yet its hard to find an answer. =P Can you provide to me some basic build orders for each matchup, usually i rush but im looking to give macro playstyle a try. Either styles are appreciated! ^_^ Thank you! :D
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Hey all, I was wondering how you would go about saturating your base's in all match ups, as in, once you get 16 drones on minerals on a base would it be efficient to get your geysers? or would you have to get at least 24 drones on a base as that includes 16 drones for minerals, plus the 2 drones you would have to sacrifice for the geysers and also the 6 drones you would need to saturate them.
Or do you think people just drone up to 16 drones on each mineral field and then once they have all there mineral fields saturated with 16 drones on each they get there gases? or do they get 24 on each base. I am confused as when and what situation to get my gases.
Some people say to get gas at 6 minute's and i have realized that if you keep up on your early game macro that by the 6 min mark your minerals lines are saturated each with 16 drones on minerals, so i wonder if that has anything to do with the timing or the reason people get there gases at that time. is the rule just to get your gas after your minerals are saturated?
I want to just play a macro oriented style, so i just want to learn how to saturate my bases to the full extent so i can focus on my army and tech.
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EPT
