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On November 07 2012 13:02 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 12:33 Melaine wrote:On November 07 2012 09:41 KimJongChill wrote:
Okay, so I'm starting to play again and I was playing a mid-masters Terran who on Antiga who only made Thors and he won, although I'm fairly sure I was outplaying him all game. I feel like where I messed up was that my engagements were not very good.
I was going roach/infestor against pure thor, and I'm not sure what to do with the infestors. Neural, fungal, infested terran, or all three??
Also, should I have gone ling infestor rather than roach? I didn't want to go broodlords because mass thor beats broodlords unless you have like 16 of them...
UGH, I'm extremely frustrated, and games like these are why I stopped playing actually, the Terran doesn't play well at all and makes one unit while floating tons of minerals and then just a-moves across the map with repair @_@ And broodlords hard counter thors, thor's can't close the distance on brood lord/infestor. No...while blord/infestor/corruptor is the obvious ZvT deathball end goal, broodlords don't hard counter thors. Thors actually outrange breadlords, no joke. 10 range (thor) vs 9.5 (broodlord). Generally playing against mech is a macro thing. Here's a game I played against mech recently, and I think it shows perfectly how to play roach max into blord/infestor against mech (counterattacks, drops, catching him unsieged/out of position): http://drop.sc/271243
Bl/infestor will walk all over pure thors......with no vikings, Unless the zerg has the worst Infestor micro with fungle, pure thor with scvs should never win vs a bl/roach/infestor with upgrades, the Terran must start the transition into sky Terran and start viking production and raven production.
Not sure if you are following MLG/GSL and other high lvl games the past 6 months, But if the Terran does not respond with vikings @ the correct time while going mech, their thors/tanks/hellions go by by.
The person asking for help was asking about just a pure thor move out with scvs, which should be shut down by roach/infestor with proper micro and upgrades, again he did not provide a replay so we can't really tell what happen and why he lost. I'm guessing he just played to passive and let terran sit and 3/3 max out on thors vs his poor upgrades roach and LACK of a end game bl/infestor combo.
Even ultra/infestor can work well on Shipyard with the open spaces. And Brood lord/ infestor does hard counter thors, you are suppose to fungle the slow thor army to keep them from geting in range of your bl army, and a well spread of bl +fungles and pure thor army does not stand a chance, the Terran must add vikings if they want to deal with it.
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^I know, your advice was right otherwise. I just wanted to highlight that it's not like ZvP where you can chain fungal and your broodlords hit stuff for free. Thors can ALWAYS shoot back against broodlords. Also, thor/hellion timings that hit right at hive are really good. 2/2 thors with BFH support easily demolish 0/0 broodlords with the 6-8 infestors you can afford to have.
I agree with everything else you said, and you obviously want broodlord/infestor against mech deathballs to trade well. And of course vikings are required against mech. I swear I'm not retarded 
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I have problems using infestors effectively. Don't really know how to use them in a major engagement with mainly a roach/ling/infestor composition. Can someone link me to VODs or Replays to show how to engage a mech terran or a collosus/stalker/sentry with roach ling infestor?
The main problem I have is knowing when and how to use infested terran and fungal growth (what timing to send units in after lobbing infested terrans, how many infested terrans to throw, how many fungals should be cast, when to retreat with them). Also, is there a max limit to how many infestors you should make before transitioning to Brood lord/corruptor?
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On November 07 2012 16:47 JackRipper wrote:
I have problems using infestors effectively. Don't really know how to use them in a major engagement with mainly a roach/ling/infestor composition. Can someone link me to VODs or Replays to show how to engage a mech terran or a collosus/stalker/sentry with roach ling infestor?
The main problem I have is knowing when and how to use infested terran and fungal growth (what timing to send units in after lobbing infested terrans, how many infested terrans to throw, how many fungals should be cast, when to retreat with them). Also, is there a max limit to how many infestors you should make before transitioning to Brood lord/corruptor?
The general rule, especially against mech, is fungal everything once, then spam ITs everywhere to surround. If you have a ton of infestors, fungal again, then dump the last of your energy and retreat--BEFORE your ITs die. I emphasize "before" because while you'd love to stick around and add damage, your infestors are now useless (no energy), so there is no benefit to keeping those fat slugs around any longer. Why risk losing them for just a few more ITs?
The latest IPL Fight Club (hyun vs finale) has a few good examples, though not great. Here's roach ling infestor in a mostly-won situation: link
Dark has excellent infestor play, though I don't have links for you.
One caveat is that in ZvP, colossi melt ITs, so you'll want corruptors if at all possible.
Uh yeah sorry though I had more VOD links in easy reach. Definitely the big mistake I see many diamond and lower players make is trying to sit in front of the enemy and chain fungal while taking fire. Doesn't work, you lose infestors. Blanket the army once, then dump ITs. Repeat if for some reason you still have energy when the first fungals wear off. Then run away.
I guess the best way to explain it is that fungal is too slow against large and tanky units, you need the ITs to overwhelm a deathball or pseudo-deathball.
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Hello, can you help me with timings for:
1 base DT(2gas) and 2 base ffe DT(fast 3rd and 4th gas)?
I want to know to refine my timing for spores or lair.
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Hi, I was wondering if anyone was able to analyze Life's early ling pressure he does against terrran right before the hellions come out? It would be awesome to learn that build.
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Does anybody here have a few good allin build orders, on which I can orient myself? I really need something for Entombed close position ...
I'm mid-high masters, but all ins are something I still need to figure out haha
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Check out my build over your post, it can be done vs protoss also if you deny the 4 queens and get a third instead
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On November 08 2012 05:56 Levernz wrote:
Check out my build over your post, it can be done vs protoss also if you deny the 4 queens and get a third instead
Well nah .. I need something a bit faster, since this timing is too slow and can be exploited quite easily on close positions. (Aggressive play of the opponent)
I was more thinking of roach bane allin style gameplays, but I don't really have a starting point to experiment around with, so ...
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Im having a really hard time in zvp with early zealot + 1 pressure, just a few zealots, They come before I have RW and it does soooo much damage to my eco, anyone have an answer to this or at least have an idea of when I should put down the RW to prevent this?
edit: thanks for the response guys! So basically RW should go up at ~50 supply against zealots+1 if Im doing it right?
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^ 6:30 warren if no gas at toss natural at that time. Delay 15 seconds if he goes pylon before gateway. Save gas/larvae for 4-6 roaches at your third at 7:30. If hes super all in (ie 7gate +1) then don't get lair, just mass roach/ling off 4 gas.
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Hi again.
What's a good way to crush a planetary cost effective until late midgame?
Thank you!
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On November 08 2012 05:29 MrAgony wrote:
Hi, I was wondering if anyone was able to analyze Life's early ling pressure he does against terrran right before the hellions come out? It would be awesome to learn that build.
It's simple. He opens 15 hatch, 15 pool, 17 gas. He makes three queens and he drones until ling speed is half way done, then he makes nothing but lings. The build is meant to hit a timing before hellions come out. If you manage to kill the terran bunker at their natural you will always force the terran to lift his CC. Keep in mind that The build is not meant to kill your opponent, just to do economic damgage. Once you feel youve done enough damage, you should start droning and take all four of your gases and get dual evo chambers. If youre really greedy, you can take a third base immediately.
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On November 08 2012 06:37 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
Im having a really hard time in zvp with early zealot + 1 pressure, just a few zealots, They come before I have RW and it does soooo much damage to my eco, anyone have an answer to this or at least have an idea of when I should put down the RW to prevent this?
to identify zealot pressure, you want to check the protosses gas count. If he didn't take his gases at his natural by 6:30 it is 100% gateway pressure or a fast third. If you don't see the toss taking a third then you want to put your roach warren down immediately and get ling speed. Also, if your roach warren is late, don't be afraid to pull the queens from your main and your natural. Three queens + lings are decent against zealot pressure. But ideally you want around 5-6 roaches to defend.
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On November 08 2012 07:42 Striker.superfreunde wrote:
Hi again.
What's a good way to crush a planetary cost effective until late midgame?
Thank you!
if you can manage to get a surround with you lings with infestor support to fungal the repairing scvs you can kill a PF rather cost efficiently. But in the Mid game it is better to just aviod the PF and expand yourself and turtle until to you get BL/infestor.
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On November 08 2012 05:55 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote:
Does anybody here have a few good allin build orders, on which I can orient myself? I really need something for Entombed close position ...
I'm mid-high masters, but all ins are something I still need to figure out haha
Not sure if the exact build order, but roach bane all ins are really good on entombed.
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hey guys,
im having big problems going infestor against 3cc/bio builds. i can defend the first pushes with upgraded lings and banes, but the longer the game goes, i get more spread out and dropped everywhere. and the reinforcements of T almost never stop until im losing my bases and die slowly, but steadily. how to adapt against that aggressive playstyle? be more aggressive myself on ling/bane tech, instead of rushing to infestors?! turtle like a boss, when ive secured my 4th base? some advice would be appreciated
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On November 08 2012 08:58 joeyBanana wrote:hey guys, im having big problems going infestor against 3cc/bio builds. i can defend the first pushes with upgraded lings and banes, but the longer the game goes, i get more spread out and dropped everywhere. and the reinforcements of T almost never stop until im losing my bases and die slowly, but steadily. how to adapt against that aggressive playstyle? be more aggressive myself on ling/bane tech, instead of rushing to infestors?! turtle like a boss, when ive secured my 4th base? some advice would be appreciated
The most robust playstyle against terran is to just turtle until you get BL/Infestor. So yes, you want to get infestors out as fast as possible while establishing a three base economy. Defending against drops is rather simple, simply don't have your army out of position and put static defense like spore crawlers behind mineral lines or other likely spots for drops. Also, don't be afraid to divide your army between bases, meaning have one pack of lings/banes at your main and one back of ling/banes at your third to defend.
This isn't the only way to play against this style, roach bane agression works very well against 3 cc builds on maps like entombed. Really just personal preference.
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EPT
