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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On November 05 2012 23:36 fezvez wrote:Simple question : In ZvP, is there a (blind) way to counter gateway expansion as zerg? I play random, and when I random ZvP, first, I say "Yes!", then I wonder how I can abuse the situation. I am pretty sure they are going to open 13 gate in their main. Then, sometimes, they do some gateway expand. Sometimes, they 4 gate, and they never do any kind of sentry expand. So, I have to ask those with good memories, at those times where FFE was not always standard (good ol' times, Xel'Naga Caverns, Metalopolis, etc...) how would Zerg punish these BO? There's one thing really cool going on for me here, it's that I am pretty sure that Protoss never FFE, so building a bunch of lings is not always useless. I am currently doing 15 hatch 15 pool (no forge, so no possibility to cannon  ) and keep my larva. If I see the semblance of a gateway expand, I pop 3 set of lings and often manage to slip 4 lings in the main (cannon kills 2) But that's not incredible...
The best way to "exploit" the protoss In that situation is to 15 hatch.
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Hey all!
Quick question I noticed in the mlg finals that both leenock and life, went 10 drones then overlord? is this better then 9 overlord?
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Canada16217 Posts
On November 06 2012 00:03 Hellspire wrote:
Hey all!
Quick question I noticed in the mlg finals that both leenock and life, went 10 drones then overlord? is this better then 9 overlord?
Nestea has said the difference is small or too insignificant, no matter what one you do based even if you were GrandMaster it wouldn't really give you an advantage or disadvantage. Personal preference for me is 9 overlord
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On November 05 2012 10:08 whatevername wrote:
You basically just panicked. You engaged his lings and drones a couple times very briefly then disengaged, losing you some lings. In that position you honestly just sit in ur mineral line until ur spines are done and break it. If you had been a bit more composed [on the side, I dont think an evo is necessary at all] you would of had the ling+drone+spine count to beat his attack. When your spines finish you should uproot both to be within range of his spines and go, another thing you didnt do.
I panicked? But I saw this shit coming. In fact, I ALWAYS see it coming and trust me I make efforts to prepare...
What if I sit in my mineral lines and his spines end up going up? This kind of stuff is hard to stop 
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On November 06 2012 01:29 NarAliya wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 10:08 whatevername wrote:
You basically just panicked. You engaged his lings and drones a couple times very briefly then disengaged, losing you some lings. In that position you honestly just sit in ur mineral line until ur spines are done and break it. If you had been a bit more composed [on the side, I dont think an evo is necessary at all] you would of had the ling+drone+spine count to beat his attack. When your spines finish you should uproot both to be within range of his spines and go, another thing you didnt do. I panicked? But I saw this shit coming. In fact, I ALWAYS see it coming and trust me I make efforts to prepare... What if I sit in my mineral lines and his spines end up going up? This kind of stuff is hard to stop Well, your micro seemed to be product of nerves, maybe im wrong. It doesnt matter of his spines go up, you can fit in 3 [skip queen] and break it long before your hatchery dies so long as you only engage once your spines are done and you have sufficient ling count. 10 pool all in is a free win for 15 pool if you do that.
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On November 06 2012 00:31 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 00:03 Hellspire wrote:
Hey all!
Quick question I noticed in the mlg finals that both leenock and life, went 10 drones then overlord? is this better then 9 overlord? Nestea has said the difference is small or too insignificant, no matter what one you do based even if you were GrandMaster it wouldn't really give you an advantage or disadvantage. Personal preference for me is 9 overlord
Yes. Difference is small. That said, I think it has been mathematically proven that 9 overlord is better than anything else. So, those pros aren't necessarily trying to play optimally. Sometimes, you try too hard pairing workers to close mineral patches and accidentally overmake a drone to 10/10. That could be one of the reasons.
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What if they're doing that in order to scout faster and still have 8 drones in the minerals ? Could be better than having only 7 or having to scout later ?
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Hey guys, I'm needing some general advice on decision making. I got promoted to Masters towards the end of last season and I felt like a real patch Zerg because it seemed like I found a good way to get to late game securely, I held all-ins without problems and everything was going well.
This season, I'm back to diamond and really struggling in all match ups. While my macro is certainly not good, I'm sure that pretty much all my losses come from horrible decision making. I don't know why this has become such a huge issue over night but I think I might be playing too safe a lot of times.
Right now, my biggest issues are with mid game ZvP. Whenever Protoss goes for the 10-minute Immortal-Sentry all in, I feel really confident and am almost always able to hold it by catching them on the middle of the map and then killing them.
However, sometimes, they just pull back into their natural (before I can surround) and wait. I can deny their third and am thinking "oh shit, they must move out any second now" so I keep massing lings and roaches, setup my flanks to crush them as soon as they come out. But by the time they do, they have so many immortals, stalkers and sentries that it seems I cannot win the fight without Infestors. Is this true? Attacking into their natural often seems like suicide to me and I'd rather play a more passive style.
Right now, if I scout like three gates and a robo, I always prepare for the 10-minute Immortal-Sentry-all-in. I cut drones at like 62 or whatever and only make lings and some roaches. If that push comes, it's good news for me. If Protoss takes a third, I can often deny it for a while and drone up during that time to get back on an even economy.
What I'm really having trouble with, are pushes that come later than those 10 minute pushes off of two bases. I always wait for them to come out and am afraid to tech to infestors because I'm thinking "they must come out any second now".
So, I guess my question would be: If I think that an all-in later than 10 minutes off of two bases is coming, what is the best way to react? I guess I'd have like 170 supply by the time I realise with many lings and roaches and only like 65 drones or whatever. Should I try to out-last him with my 2 1/2-base economy and keep trading units? Or should I pull back, drone and tech to infestors? What will keep me alive before infestors come out? Do I need to setup spines?
Also this is the first slump I've been in that has lasted longer than 2 days and I know I have to put in more effort to get out of it than usual. I also took a 3-day break from playing in between but it hasn't made my decision making better, only my mechanics worse.
Is there anything I should do besides playing a lot to get better again?
Thank you for your help guys!
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Russian Federation3 Posts
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On November 06 2012 23:50 hubschrauber wrote:
Hey guys, I'm needing some general advice on decision making. I got promoted to Masters towards the end of last season and I felt like a real patch Zerg because it seemed like I found a good way to get to late game securely, I held all-ins without problems and everything was going well.
This season, I'm back to diamond and really struggling in all match ups. While my macro is certainly not good, I'm sure that pretty much all my losses come from horrible decision making. I don't know why this has become such a huge issue over night but I think I might be playing too safe a lot of times.
Right now, my biggest issues are with mid game ZvP. Whenever Protoss goes for the 10-minute Immortal-Sentry all in, I feel really confident and am almost always able to hold it by catching them on the middle of the map and then killing them.
However, sometimes, they just pull back into their natural (before I can surround) and wait. I can deny their third and am thinking "oh shit, they must move out any second now" so I keep massing lings and roaches, setup my flanks to crush them as soon as they come out. But by the time they do, they have so many immortals, stalkers and sentries that it seems I cannot win the fight without Infestors. Is this true? Attacking into their natural often seems like suicide to me and I'd rather play a more passive style.
Right now, if I scout like three gates and a robo, I always prepare for the 10-minute Immortal-Sentry-all-in. I cut drones at like 62 or whatever and only make lings and some roaches. If that push comes, it's good news for me. If Protoss takes a third, I can often deny it for a while and drone up during that time to get back on an even economy.
What I'm really having trouble with, are pushes that come later than those 10 minute pushes off of two bases. I always wait for them to come out and am afraid to tech to infestors because I'm thinking "they must come out any second now".
So, I guess my question would be: If I think that an all-in later than 10 minutes off of two bases is coming, what is the best way to react? I guess I'd have like 170 supply by the time I realise with many lings and roaches and only like 65 drones or whatever. Should I try to out-last him with my 2 1/2-base economy and keep trading units? Or should I pull back, drone and tech to infestors? What will keep me alive before infestors come out? Do I need to setup spines?
Also this is the first slump I've been in that has lasted longer than 2 days and I know I have to put in more effort to get out of it than usual. I also took a 3-day break from playing in between but it hasn't made my decision making better, only my mechanics worse.
Is there anything I should do besides playing a lot to get better again?
Thank you for your help guys!
In a slump for 2 days only ? Lol you must be kidding me, i've been in a slump for 2 fucking years now. I gave up about this mu at all. There are so many things it doesn't make sense, or that i fail to understand. I've been master since the beta and i've been demoted 4 times just because of this mu. Oh well.
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On November 06 2012 23:50 hubschrauber wrote:
Hey guys, I'm needing some general advice on decision making. I got promoted to Masters towards the end of last season and I felt like a real patch Zerg because it seemed like I found a good way to get to late game securely, I held all-ins without problems and everything was going well.
This season, I'm back to diamond and really struggling in all match ups. While my macro is certainly not good, I'm sure that pretty much all my losses come from horrible decision making. I don't know why this has become such a huge issue over night but I think I might be playing too safe a lot of times.
Right now, my biggest issues are with mid game ZvP. Whenever Protoss goes for the 10-minute Immortal-Sentry all in, I feel really confident and am almost always able to hold it by catching them on the middle of the map and then killing them.
However, sometimes, they just pull back into their natural (before I can surround) and wait. I can deny their third and am thinking "oh shit, they must move out any second now" so I keep massing lings and roaches, setup my flanks to crush them as soon as they come out. But by the time they do, they have so many immortals, stalkers and sentries that it seems I cannot win the fight without Infestors. Is this true? Attacking into their natural often seems like suicide to me and I'd rather play a more passive style.
Right now, if I scout like three gates and a robo, I always prepare for the 10-minute Immortal-Sentry-all-in. I cut drones at like 62 or whatever and only make lings and some roaches. If that push comes, it's good news for me. If Protoss takes a third, I can often deny it for a while and drone up during that time to get back on an even economy.
What I'm really having trouble with, are pushes that come later than those 10 minute pushes off of two bases. I always wait for them to come out and am afraid to tech to infestors because I'm thinking "they must come out any second now".
So, I guess my question would be: If I think that an all-in later than 10 minutes off of two bases is coming, what is the best way to react? I guess I'd have like 170 supply by the time I realise with many lings and roaches and only like 65 drones or whatever. Should I try to out-last him with my 2 1/2-base economy and keep trading units? Or should I pull back, drone and tech to infestors? What will keep me alive before infestors come out? Do I need to setup spines?
Also this is the first slump I've been in that has lasted longer than 2 days and I know I have to put in more effort to get out of it than usual. I also took a 3-day break from playing in between but it hasn't made my decision making better, only my mechanics worse.
Is there anything I should do besides playing a lot to get better again?
Thank you for your help guys!
If he pulls back, you should IMMEDIATELY tech to either infestors, mutas, or hydras, depending on your style. None of these tech structures cost that much, nor do their upgrades, but they are key to holding larger allins, especially if he has a lot of sentries. Honestly you should be putting down your first tech structure as he pushes out at 9 min. or so; you need to have this in case the game goes longer anyway. The best players seem like they don't sacrifice their tech while holding allins, even if they're not able to use their tech in time for the allin.
Do your best to tech to whatever you're teching towards while building enough units to hold attacks. Also, keep up with your upgrades. As soon as you can, add in your higher-tech units into your army and you should be fine.
You can also go based on timings; if you suspect an allin, build units (roach/ling) until 9:00~9:30 (at which point you should have plenty to at least begin to engage him), and then get some drones to fully saturate your 3base, then go back to units. After you drone you should be starting to put some higher-tech units in your army.
One last point: If you're close to max, engage outside of his base, even if you're not on creep. Try to make him burn forcefields and trade armies. Even if you get a good surround on creep when he's near your base, you don't have the time to get up a solid army again to hold his push and your forces get spread out. It's much better to engage him, trade some stuff, and remax while he's on the way to your base than to just have one engagement with your army at your base.
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Okay, so I'm starting to play again and I was playing a mid-masters Terran who on Antiga who only made Thors and he won, although I'm fairly sure I was outplaying him all game. I feel like where I messed up was that my engagements were not very good.
I was going roach/infestor against pure thor, and I'm not sure what to do with the infestors. Neural, fungal, infested terran, or all three??
Also, should I have gone ling infestor rather than roach? I didn't want to go broodlords because mass thor beats broodlords unless you have like 16 of them...
UGH, I'm extremely frustrated, and games like these are why I stopped playing actually, the Terran doesn't play well at all and makes one unit while floating tons of minerals and then just a-moves across the map with repair @_@
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Hi guys, I'm a platinum level Terran/Protoss but I've recently had the desire to play Zerg. Although I know the basic principles and can execute fairly "standard" builds such as 14/14, 10pool, Stephano Roach timing, I honestly don't have a good grasp of general builds/concepts/timings.
Could I get a very generic build or gameplan with a few timings for ZvT and possibly ZvP? Thanks!
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On November 07 2012 09:41 KimJongChill wrote:
Okay, so I'm starting to play again and I was playing a mid-masters Terran who on Antiga who only made Thors and he won, although I'm fairly sure I was outplaying him all game. I feel like where I messed up was that my engagements were not very good.
I was going roach/infestor against pure thor, and I'm not sure what to do with the infestors. Neural, fungal, infested terran, or all three??
Also, should I have gone ling infestor rather than roach? I didn't want to go broodlords because mass thor beats broodlords unless you have like 16 of them...
UGH, I'm extremely frustrated, and games like these are why I stopped playing actually, the Terran doesn't play well at all and makes one unit while floating tons of minerals and then just a-moves across the map with repair @_@
Roach/bane works very well against this comp. Banelings take care of the SCV's and do general AOE to the thors while roaches clean up.
ling/festor against mech in general is pretty bad IMO.
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If you 15 pool and they havent expanded put your first 50 gas to a baneling nest, sim city should allow you to pull ahead safely against this. Zerglings+banelings is a different build than the speedling expand, its an all in build. Just throw down a spine and use defensive banelings to win. If they just expand though, the pressure should be light and a few banes will secure ur natural. If you 15 hatches against the 14p expand build you will actually be hugely ahead and can counter attack them, your extra larva will give u a huge advantage.On November 07 2012 09:41 KimJongChill wrote:
Okay, so I'm starting to play again and I was playing a mid-masters Terran who on Antiga who only made Thors and he won, although I'm fairly sure I was outplaying him all game. I feel like where I messed up was that my engagements were not very good.
I was going roach/infestor against pure thor, and I'm not sure what to do with the infestors. Neural, fungal, infested terran, or all three??
Also, should I have gone ling infestor rather than roach? I didn't want to go broodlords because mass thor beats broodlords unless you have like 16 of them...
UGH, I'm extremely frustrated, and games like these are why I stopped playing actually, the Terran doesn't play well at all and makes one unit while floating tons of minerals and then just a-moves across the map with repair @_@ Can be tricky to pull off but if you ever see a terran with too many thors and too little tanks, speed banes can net you a massive advantage.
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On November 07 2012 09:41 KimJongChill wrote:
Okay, so I'm starting to play again and I was playing a mid-masters Terran who on Antiga who only made Thors and he won, although I'm fairly sure I was outplaying him all game. I feel like where I messed up was that my engagements were not very good.
I was going roach/infestor against pure thor, and I'm not sure what to do with the infestors. Neural, fungal, infested terran, or all three??
Also, should I have gone ling infestor rather than roach? I didn't want to go broodlords because mass thor beats broodlords unless you have like 16 of them...
UGH, I'm extremely frustrated, and games like these are why I stopped playing actually, the Terran doesn't play well at all and makes one unit while floating tons of minerals and then just a-moves across the map with repair @_@
IF > Fungal (for SCVs) > Neural (only because its hard to pull off without the Infestor dying, IF is spammable)
Chances are.. you didn't keep up with your attack and defense upgrades, 3/3 Thors are pretty hard to kill.
Also, Zerg's fight against deathballs should almost never be head-on. Runby speedlings and banes into their mineral line, slow their push with spines and wear them down by attrition. Roaches heal quickly when burrowed and Infestors can regain energy.
Sooner or later, not only will you overwhelm the deathball, but also manage to destroy their economy.
You should always post replays for analysis
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On November 07 2012 06:02 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 23:50 hubschrauber wrote:
Hey guys, I'm needing some general advice on decision making. I got promoted to Masters towards the end of last season and I felt like a real patch Zerg because it seemed like I found a good way to get to late game securely, I held all-ins without problems and everything was going well.
This season, I'm back to diamond and really struggling in all match ups. While my macro is certainly not good, I'm sure that pretty much all my losses come from horrible decision making. I don't know why this has become such a huge issue over night but I think I might be playing too safe a lot of times.
Right now, my biggest issues are with mid game ZvP. Whenever Protoss goes for the 10-minute Immortal-Sentry all in, I feel really confident and am almost always able to hold it by catching them on the middle of the map and then killing them.
However, sometimes, they just pull back into their natural (before I can surround) and wait. I can deny their third and am thinking "oh shit, they must move out any second now" so I keep massing lings and roaches, setup my flanks to crush them as soon as they come out. But by the time they do, they have so many immortals, stalkers and sentries that it seems I cannot win the fight without Infestors. Is this true? Attacking into their natural often seems like suicide to me and I'd rather play a more passive style.
Right now, if I scout like three gates and a robo, I always prepare for the 10-minute Immortal-Sentry-all-in. I cut drones at like 62 or whatever and only make lings and some roaches. If that push comes, it's good news for me. If Protoss takes a third, I can often deny it for a while and drone up during that time to get back on an even economy.
What I'm really having trouble with, are pushes that come later than those 10 minute pushes off of two bases. I always wait for them to come out and am afraid to tech to infestors because I'm thinking "they must come out any second now".
So, I guess my question would be: If I think that an all-in later than 10 minutes off of two bases is coming, what is the best way to react? I guess I'd have like 170 supply by the time I realise with many lings and roaches and only like 65 drones or whatever. Should I try to out-last him with my 2 1/2-base economy and keep trading units? Or should I pull back, drone and tech to infestors? What will keep me alive before infestors come out? Do I need to setup spines?
Also this is the first slump I've been in that has lasted longer than 2 days and I know I have to put in more effort to get out of it than usual. I also took a 3-day break from playing in between but it hasn't made my decision making better, only my mechanics worse.
Is there anything I should do besides playing a lot to get better again?
Thank you for your help guys! If he pulls back, you should IMMEDIATELY tech to either infestors, mutas, or hydras, depending on your style. None of these tech structures cost that much, nor do their upgrades, but they are key to holding larger allins, especially if he has a lot of sentries. Honestly you should be putting down your first tech structure as he pushes out at 9 min. or so; you need to have this in case the game goes longer anyway. The best players seem like they don't sacrifice their tech while holding allins, even if they're not able to use their tech in time for the allin. Do your best to tech to whatever you're teching towards while building enough units to hold attacks. Also, keep up with your upgrades. As soon as you can, add in your higher-tech units into your army and you should be fine. You can also go based on timings; if you suspect an allin, build units (roach/ling) until 9:00~9:30 (at which point you should have plenty to at least begin to engage him), and then get some drones to fully saturate your 3base, then go back to units. After you drone you should be starting to put some higher-tech units in your army. One last point: If you're close to max, engage outside of his base, even if you're not on creep. Try to make him burn forcefields and trade armies. Even if you get a good surround on creep when he's near your base, you don't have the time to get up a solid army again to hold his push and your forces get spread out. It's much better to engage him, trade some stuff, and remax while he's on the way to your base than to just have one engagement with your army at your base.
Thank you for your help, totally makes sense. I guess that's the way I've been dealing with that before my "slump". Sometimes you need to be reminded of basic things to get back on track again.
Thank you! 
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On November 07 2012 09:41 KimJongChill wrote:
Okay, so I'm starting to play again and I was playing a mid-masters Terran who on Antiga who only made Thors and he won, although I'm fairly sure I was outplaying him all game. I feel like where I messed up was that my engagements were not very good.
I was going roach/infestor against pure thor, and I'm not sure what to do with the infestors. Neural, fungal, infested terran, or all three??
Also, should I have gone ling infestor rather than roach? I didn't want to go broodlords because mass thor beats broodlords unless you have like 16 of them...
UGH, I'm extremely frustrated, and games like these are why I stopped playing actually, the Terran doesn't play well at all and makes one unit while floating tons of minerals and then just a-moves across the map with repair @_@
Replay? I want to see how your engagements are going wrong.
In the meantime, read my recent post on my anti-mech play: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16742164
Note that this upgraded roach style is a lot safer and more consistent early on compared to the speedling to infestor kind of deal a lot of pros have been using, but this safety is at the cost of severely delaying your tech (ballpark of 3min late on infestors, 5+ min late on hive units). The difference is that you control the map in midgame, and retain the initiative in terms of threatening an all-in or doom drop, or expanding twice while he goes 2base deathball, etc.
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On November 07 2012 09:41 KimJongChill wrote:
Okay, so I'm starting to play again and I was playing a mid-masters Terran who on Antiga who only made Thors and he won, although I'm fairly sure I was outplaying him all game. I feel like where I messed up was that my engagements were not very good.
I was going roach/infestor against pure thor, and I'm not sure what to do with the infestors. Neural, fungal, infested terran, or all three??
Also, should I have gone ling infestor rather than roach? I didn't want to go broodlords because mass thor beats broodlords unless you have like 16 of them...
UGH, I'm extremely frustrated, and games like these are why I stopped playing actually, the Terran doesn't play well at all and makes one unit while floating tons of minerals and then just a-moves across the map with repair @_@
Roach+infestor hard counters....pure thors with scvs........pure thor is a blessing if the terran mechs, strong mech is with tanks+thor+blue flame ect.
With out a replay we can't really help you, but just sounds like you had poor micro, or 0/0 roaches.
Roaches with speed and keeping up in upgrades with money fungles is a ez win vs nothing but thors and scvs.
Also, you should of been doing early attacks if he really had no siege tanks and just thors, Thors are useless early/mid game vs roach/infestor
And broodlords hard counter thors, thor's can't close the distance on brood lord/infestor.
Thors do not counter brood lords with infestors out, if he true only had thors, with out tanks or vikings......you could of a moved a infestor/brood army and ez won the game.
but with out the replay we can't really say much.
Only real way you can lose to a pure only thor army is if you afk for 30 mins and allow them to get 3/3 thors in a max 200/200 army on 4-5 bases..... mabey you did not do any enough early/mid game to prepare to slow mech production down....it really does take a large amount of time to get a critical amount of thors with 3/3
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On November 07 2012 12:33 Melaine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 09:41 KimJongChill wrote:
Okay, so I'm starting to play again and I was playing a mid-masters Terran who on Antiga who only made Thors and he won, although I'm fairly sure I was outplaying him all game. I feel like where I messed up was that my engagements were not very good.
I was going roach/infestor against pure thor, and I'm not sure what to do with the infestors. Neural, fungal, infested terran, or all three??
Also, should I have gone ling infestor rather than roach? I didn't want to go broodlords because mass thor beats broodlords unless you have like 16 of them...
UGH, I'm extremely frustrated, and games like these are why I stopped playing actually, the Terran doesn't play well at all and makes one unit while floating tons of minerals and then just a-moves across the map with repair @_@ And broodlords hard counter thors, thor's can't close the distance on brood lord/infestor.
No...while blord/infestor/corruptor is the obvious ZvT deathball end goal, broodlords don't hard counter thors. Thors actually outrange breadlords, no joke. 10 range (thor) vs 9.5 (broodlord).
Generally playing against mech is a macro thing. Here's a game I played against mech recently, and I think it shows perfectly how to play roach max into blord/infestor against mech (counterattacks, drops, catching him unsieged/out of position): http://drop.sc/271243
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EPT
