|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On December 31 2011 01:20 Belial88 wrote:
I have a question, probably better for fellow masters to comment on, but anyone can really.
How do you deal with 3 gate sentry expand? So many protoss are adamant it's 'outdated' or 'bad build' but I have the toughest time with it.
I have never seen a pro vod or game either where someone went 3 gate sentry expand and it got crushed for just doing that opening. As far as I can tell, the build never got outdated, I guess just maps got so large and the natural choke got smaller so FFE got... safer? i suppose.
I think the idea is you go fast third before lair...
But assuming that assumption is correct, when do you get the third, basically, is my question: When Protoss gets their natural (about 5:30-6:00) or later, at 8-9:00? I assume you mass roach/ling for a while, but I suppose this becomes a matter of make roach/ling at 6:00, then take the third, or do you take the third, then make nothing but units for a while?
Just theory crafting, as I don't have enough experience against it, nor can play particularly well against but, but I think it's best to approach it somewhat like an FFE, so the latter of your options, 3rd then units. I feel as though you probably just need to be really on your game with scouting,as if you go for a fast 3rd and the guy 4gates, your basically caught with your pants down.
So basically approach it like an FFE, 3rd then lots of units (Roach Ling), and scout like you've never scouted before.
Hope it helps abit, but again it really is theory crafting.
|
On December 29 2011 22:52 Suitup wrote:ZvP I need help in this matchup, in all other mu my winrate is about 80% (i am diamond zerg) but in ZvP it is like 0% lately. I have gathered some replays I found (they are not the most recent), maybe you can give me some advice like: 1. how do I open the best? (I like to do a 11 pool or 13 pool but dunno how to follow that up) 2. how do I scout (1 base and ffe toss) and when? (I tend to have a scouting drone in his base until the first stalker comes out) 3. how do I respond? (against cannon rush + 1 zealot, zeal push with phoenix/vr follow up, zeal 5 sentry push, hidden dt shrine on map, straightup 2 collosus push ... then deathball with stalker/collosus/vr/ht or mass chargelot archon) 4. which style is the most sucessful lately? (roach hydra corruptor vs muta ling, I really tried to adapt muta ling but it never worked out for me) 5. how do I kill him? replays: http://drop.sc/users/2023/uploads
I havent watched the replays (at work), so I'm gonna help based off your points. (I'm a Mid Masters Zerg, ZvP my best MU due to practice partners)
The first thing that I tell zergs vs protoss is to drone drone drone, and avoid making units till you have to. Now you will die the first couple times doing this. But after about your 5th loss you will start to discover when to stop making drones and when to start making units.
Opening build I use:
14/15 pool into hatch on 20/21. NO GAS TIL 40 SUPPLY (2 queens)
-I love this build. OMG the money is so nice. You get 4 lings (2 eggs) and scout the map, if i scout a forge FE I get a 3rd around 50-60 food and drone heavy (watch for zealot +1 attacks) I then usually get my Roach warren around 50 food, and 2 evos and start +1+1. the evo's early prevent VR and DT's fairly easily. If you see VR get a few extra queens and spread creep. SCOUT often and check for 2 stargates. If 2 get hydras, but dont produce more than about 10 or so. Keep your units low in the early game and get drones and keep scouting. Once you see the push spam units and a few spines and use ling runbys to have them pull back if possible
Second thing is SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT! You arnt gonna find the hidden DT's so dont bother, but you should have a evo chamber at least constructed when the DT's hit, or shortly before(i sometimes just get 2 spores in my mineral lines at around the 7:30 mark) (also count their sentry's. A low count would suggest tech, meaning DT's HT's, Air or Collosi)
Third thing is get a unit that you enjoy, for example I've been using mass roach's lately because I've been watching IdrA videos and hes a master at denying the toss's 3rd while taking his own.
The main builds I use against toss are:
1) MASS ROACH. Just build a Dick load of roach's and engage the toss at their front door, to allow you the room to retreat and remax up. Avoid chokes and get corruptors when they mix in either air or collosi.
2) Muta ling. Go mass ling/roach at the opening and get an extra expand, mostly for gass. Dont try rush for muta, low count of muta vs toss isent all that effective, other than forcing cannons. You want to have a group of muta big enough to crush a expo with a few cannons. Once your spire pops you can usually get around 12 or so muta this puts fear into the toss, and forces blink stalkers and mass cannons. GET SPINE CRAWLERS! often this will sometimes force an attack. Muta ling is fairly weak against a all out offensive vs a toss, you need the spines to be able to take on their force. Dont be stingy either, 10-15 spines is not overracting. Remember you have a base advantage and with muta u can delay a 3rd and even kill the main nexus or 2nd nexus to force them to 2 base. (sorry that was long winded, I'm fail at english class haha)
3) Roach/Hydra. I dont prefer this build but it does work against a high gateway count toss, be wary of storms though. The hydras I feel are a "trap" unit. They feel strong but once the roach's fall they are as weak as lings, and for 4x the cost. Dont get too many of them, rather save your gass for late tech and transition into Hive tech army.
These are the 3 I enjoy and work with, but other possibilities are out there for example, ling infestor or roach infestor, or muta/ling/infestor. I enjoy infestor and work with them a bunch, but just be careful on how much gas you spend on tech that is not Hive.
Use overlords to scout, but also checking sentry counts and unit counts are a good way to approximate their build while not actully seeing their production
|
On December 31 2011 01:20 Belial88 wrote:
I have a question, probably better for fellow masters to comment on, but anyone can really.
How do you deal with 3 gate sentry expand? So many protoss are adamant it's 'outdated' or 'bad build' but I have the toughest time with it.
I have never seen a pro vod or game either where someone went 3 gate sentry expand and it got crushed for just doing that opening. As far as I can tell, the build never got outdated, I guess just maps got so large and the natural choke got smaller so FFE got... safer? i suppose.
I think the idea is you go fast third before lair...
But assuming that assumption is correct, when do you get the third, basically, is my question: When Protoss gets their natural (about 5:30-6:00) or later, at 8-9:00? I assume you mass roach/ling for a while, but I suppose this becomes a matter of make roach/ling at 6:00, then take the third, or do you take the third, then make nothing but units for a while?
Fellow masters on NA here.
If you scout FFE, I take my third base immediately. Like, immediately as in 4-5 minutes into the game, below 30 food. I'm sure you know how to respond to ffe, take fast third, power really hard until 8 or 8:30 where you sac an ovie and see what he's going.
Against 3 gate sentry I still go 2 base lair, TBH, for really really fast overlord speed so I can be all over the map with scouts and see exactly what he's doing. Most of the time I don't take a third base until I'm sure I can put up a good defence. Too many times I've taken a fast third on hatchery tech and been immediately killed by a push that has a key upgrade like blink/charge/one colo with range etc. Try it out if you want, but I tend to play without really aggressive expansions since most of the protoss who are in mid master just do allins off 2 base anyway.
|
Is it all in for a zerg to use roach/ling to trade armys or put pressure against a FFE protoss while droning/taking a 3rd? I say this because I lose a lot to FFE who put minimum defence at their natural and do some gay mass stargate play into collosus sentry stalker deathball and I always lose to it. Basiclly what i want to do it to make the protoss unable to get to collosus without having to make alot of gateway units first? Is that all in?
|
On December 31 2011 02:02 arena_say_what wrote:
Is it all in for a zerg to use roach/ling to trade armys or put pressure against a FFE protoss while droning/taking a 3rd? I say this because I lose a lot to FFE who put minimum defence at their natural and do some gay mass stargate play into collosus sentry stalker deathball and I always lose to it. Basiclly what i want to do it to make the protoss unable to get to collosus without having to make alot of gateway units first? Is that all in?
It's impossible to tell whether you are going all-in without posting a replay. Generally, if you are sacrificing your economy entirely and committing to one attack to win the game, then yes, you are all-in. Or, if you are playing against P and put yourself 20+ drones behind, you are really all-in against a good protoss who can convert that advantage.
|
On December 31 2011 02:02 arena_say_what wrote:
Is it all in for a zerg to use roach/ling to trade armys or put pressure against a FFE protoss while droning/taking a 3rd? I say this because I lose a lot to FFE who put minimum defence at their natural and do some gay mass stargate play into collosus sentry stalker deathball and I always lose to it. Basiclly what i want to do it to make the protoss unable to get to collosus without having to make alot of gateway units first? Is that all in?
I would call it all in if you did no damage. If u produced a bunch of units and you got denyed by force fields and couldent do any damage while putting your self behind then yeah you've essentially built units insted of drones and done no damage. I would suggest instead to try deal with air or collosi by use of queens/spire tech.
|
On December 31 2011 02:02 arena_say_what wrote:
Is it all in for a zerg to use roach/ling to trade armys or put pressure against a FFE protoss while droning/taking a 3rd? I say this because I lose a lot to FFE who put minimum defence at their natural and do some gay mass stargate play into collosus sentry stalker deathball and I always lose to it. Basiclly what i want to do it to make the protoss unable to get to collosus without having to make alot of gateway units first? Is that all in?
Yes. Making roaches and zerglings that hits your drone count really hard. if it fails, you will be behind/cant recover. That is the definition of all-in.
If you do damage, you are fine, of course.
|
Fellow masters on NA here.
If you scout FFE, I take my third base immediately. Like, immediately as in 4-5 minutes into the game, below 30 food. I'm sure you know how to respond to ffe, take fast third, power really hard until 8 or 8:30 where you sac an ovie and see what he's going.
Against 3 gate sentry I still go 2 base lair, TBH, for really really fast overlord speed so I can be all over the map with scouts and see exactly what he's doing. Most of the time I don't take a third base until I'm sure I can put up a good defence. Too many times I've taken a fast third on hatchery tech and been immediately killed by a push that has a key upgrade like blink/charge/one colo with range etc. Try it out if you want, but I tend to play without really aggressive expansions since most of the protoss who are in mid master just do allins off 2 base anyway.
Thanks for the response, but I really dislike getting lair before third in ZvZ or ZvP anymore. Regardless of that, I think 2 base lair means you are forced to do damage or you end up behind, and if protoss scouts or guesses right... GG. You are just behind when its 2 base vs 2 base.
But... I'm not trying to be an ass here.... so... what 2 base aggression do you do, exactly? What do you find works? It seems 2 base lair muta is okay against FFE, but it seems tougher to pull off against 3 gate sentry.
If every toss does a 2 base all-in, all that happens is I defend on 2 base, since 2 base toss > 2 base zerg, and then he expands if I don't die, and gets a third before me. tt.
Is it all in for a zerg to use roach/ling to trade armys or put pressure against a FFE protoss while droning/taking a 3rd? I say this because I lose a lot to FFE who put minimum defence at their natural and do some gay mass stargate play into collosus sentry stalker deathball and I always lose to it. Basiclly what i want to do it to make the protoss unable to get to collosus without having to make alot of gateway units first? Is that all in?
Theoretically, what you say sounds smart. But, it isn't (lol im not saying your stupid, just the idea). Making roaches before 50 supply just KILLS your economy, so making any number of roaches before 50 supply, or lair, or third, just absolutely trashes your econ.
Given this situation, you are best off just all-inning, instead of making a few roaches. There is nothing just a small number of roaches can really do, but an all-in roach attack is only 8-12 roaches. That's not that many, but it takes 100% drone cutting just to get 10 roaches out, and that's the high econ roach/ling all-in version at that. more 'normal' 20 supply roach/ling all-ins (as opposed to 35 warren) only make 5-7 roaches at most, and that's a huge, allin with only 14 drones and making nothing while warren is making, just to bank for the 7 roaches.
Taking the third is only because you have an extra 300 minerals. That's a sign of poor macro. You shouldn't be able to take a third. If you are doing 20 supply warren, that means you got supply blocked and royally fucked up. If you are doing a 35 warren, that means.. you got fucked up too lol. But, you sort of bank minerals - you are better off just all-inning, and using the bank to get an evo chamber to defend against DT/SG retaliation (i always get evo once I start killing toss off).
A third is just pointless though. It's like getting your natural after 6 pooling with drone all-in - the game is decided. You don't need the third. The only way to do enough damage where the game is even rather than completely one sided, is if you kill his natural but not his main, and he still has production - in which case, going 3 base hatch tech is worse than 2 base lair against a 1 base protoss.
TLDR: Macro better, and no. Just all-in, an all-in of roaches is just 7 (20 supply warren) or 10(35 supply warren), so making only 3-5 just kills your econ while accomplishing nothing, while doing less defense than a spine or lings could do.
|
Plat zerg here, I am stuck at this mentality that the only way to win the game is wait for the oppoenent to attack (atleast T/P) and then once u beat their army on ur creep, make 10x units and go take his base down. This is how almost all games which i win end up being.
Is there anyway that the zerg can engage on enemy turf? I ask this as if toss he will FF me at his nat choke and kill me, terran with tanks and bunkers/PF is just too strong. Can zerg harass? Im not talking mutas here as they cost a bit and just not worth 100/100 to harass!
Also, is it viable to do a baneling drop in the toss natural? I hardly ever see cannons or any protection as toss never assume any air play from zerg?
|
^ Not really. That's why we are getting the viper and swarm host, to deal with turtles and have it so zerg can do something besides just drone up when you have a lead but the oppponent is turtling. Mutas are a great way to pressure the opponent though, even if they are turtling.
Once you kill the opponent's army, remax asap and just push and bust through. And mutas are definitely worthwhile, they are completely viable in every match-up, they are actually the most common unit to go for as your lairtech unit of choice in every match-up.
Baneling drop in toss natural is viable, but recommended only if you go for baneling rain. Banelings are the most gas supply costly units in the game, moreso than mothership or bc's or colossi. Add to that overlord drop which is 200/200, it's too expensive to really go for if you aren't going baneling rain. Getting an extra few broodlords or hive is preferable then getting baneling rain tech just for a few baneling drops.
But whenever I go baneling rain, I do so in the majority of my ZvPs, as soon as I get the tech unlocked, I send an overlord to each mineral line, shift-queuing movement commands then finally to autodrop on the mineral line (D). I don't know what your aversion to mutas are, in ZvT it's most common for zergs to just make more and more and more and more and more mutas forever and ever and not even get hive for the longest time, not until 6+ bases even and it becomes split map, and in ZvP mutas are done all the time, probably the most common strat right now.
|
On December 30 2011 06:56 CandyHunterz wrote:what do u guys do in zvt where the terran goes 1 rax expand into mass marines medvacs with 3/3 upgrades? this is incredibly annoying. I tried taking a quick third while getting a decent muta ball and managed to get ahead MOST of the game...until his 12 marines production with 3/3 upgrades kicked in.... replay here http://www.mediafire.com/?24lgm06k009o0s9
reasking my question as ive faced more and more terrans on the ladder that use this strat instead of the helion expand that are easily dealt with. 3/3 marines usually kick in at the 14~15 min mark and i am not sure if ling bling mutas is the best way to deal with this... maybe go for stephano style with 3/3 lings completing at around the same time? the 12~15 marines production and mass medivacs is crazy annoying to deal with..
|
On December 31 2011 06:06 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Plat zerg here, I am stuck at this mentality that the only way to win the game is wait for the oppoenent to attack (atleast T/P) and then once u beat their army on ur creep, make 10x units and go take his base down. This is how almost all games which i win end up being.
Is there anyway that the zerg can engage on enemy turf? I ask this as if toss he will FF me at his nat choke and kill me, terran with tanks and bunkers/PF is just too strong. Can zerg harass? Im not talking mutas here as they cost a bit and just not worth 100/100 to harass!
Also, is it viable to do a baneling drop in the toss natural? I hardly ever see cannons or any protection as toss never assume any air play from zerg?
There's a guy called TangSC who did a tutorial about rushing drops on the toss main and i found it very effective against very fast nexus expansion (and ONLY AGAINST fe, forget it against one base or else). You should try to look for his post, he also did a tutorial video on twitchtv called : "Stream Lesson 5: Drop-Style ZvP"
You basically trick the toss making him think that he'll have to defend against a baneling all-in but in fact you cancel your baneling nest and tech to lair super early to research the drop tech. Once you drop the lings +1 on the main you take a third gaz and start to prepare for a second drop with hydras. You'll probably enjoy it as i do, it's original, intense, successful and fun.
|
On December 30 2011 06:49 Macpo wrote:
In ZvP with P forge fast expanding, what kind of hints can you get frrom early scouting with overlord or poking at the front as zerg? (except by seeing the actual buildings indicating unit composition of course). I am thinking of gas timings, gateways timings, where chronoboosts are, number of sentries, etc.)
Cause I am trying to figure out a bit better what is coming out of FFE.
Also I would be interested in timings (at what time can you consider that he 2 base all ining, if he hasn't still yet taken a third, that kind of things...)
Thanks!
No one wants to answer this one? 
please gentle people 
|
On December 31 2011 08:00 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 06:49 Macpo wrote:
In ZvP with P forge fast expanding, what kind of hints can you get frrom early scouting with overlord or poking at the front as zerg? (except by seeing the actual buildings indicating unit composition of course). I am thinking of gas timings, gateways timings, where chronoboosts are, number of sentries, etc.)
Cause I am trying to figure out a bit better what is coming out of FFE.
Also I would be interested in timings (at what time can you consider that he 2 base all ining, if he hasn't still yet taken a third, that kind of things...)
Thanks! No one wants to answer this one? please gentle people
things to see when protoss FFE:
building placements:
1) 2 gate + 1 pylon at expo:
if protoss wall in his expo with a pylon and 2 gate: he is going to be expecting you to put down a 3rd hatch really fast in response to his FFE and chronoboost out his zealots (usually around 4~6) and then will send them straight to your 3rd. This can straight up kill you or set you really behind if you are not sure its coming.
response: drone up on 2 bases, get a roach warren and 2 gas. Get around 5 roaches then you can expand. It seems the popular follow up to early 2 gate is the robo warp prism immortal bs, just spread out your ovies and camp queens and you will be fine.
2) cyber, pylon, forge:
this could mean a lot of things as it is the standard opening for FFE protoss. Try to poke your lings up the ramp every once in a while to see if hes chrono boosting his cyber or forge. If you see a chrono boost on forge and your ovies scout some gateways building in the main it is most likely that he will do a gateway blink timing or gateway/immortals push.
response: take a really quick 3rd base, drone up like a madman while spreading creep. Put down an evo and roach warren at around 7:00 and saturate 3 gas. Keep making drones until around 8:30 then tech to lair while making nothing but roaches and lings (+1 lings really help a lot too).
3) cyber, pylon, forge:
you dont see chronoboost on anything and his sentry count is less than 3 but he took all gases. This could mean a stargate/double stargate or a DT build.
response: not really sure actually as it really depends on the toss playstyle from here on. Just do the same as above but get 2~3 more queens while adding a spore at each base and some lings.
source: im a high master on NA, http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/797690/1/CandyHunterz/
now if anybody can answer my question about dealing with early expo terran into 3/3 M&M that would be great
|
On December 31 2011 08:00 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 06:49 Macpo wrote:
In ZvP with P forge fast expanding, what kind of hints can you get frrom early scouting with overlord or poking at the front as zerg? (except by seeing the actual buildings indicating unit composition of course). I am thinking of gas timings, gateways timings, where chronoboosts are, number of sentries, etc.)
Cause I am trying to figure out a bit better what is coming out of FFE.
Also I would be interested in timings (at what time can you consider that he 2 base all ining, if he hasn't still yet taken a third, that kind of things...)
Thanks! No one wants to answer this one? please gentle people
First, preparation:
Position your first ol so that you can see when he takes his expansion gasses. Second OL just outside his main so that you can send both in at the same time to scout as much as possible. You'd want to poke the front as soon as your lings are out. If he completes 2 gates before cyber core he's usually going for early pressure (4-6 units). After initial front scout, send some lings to scout for his probe or proxy pylons. Then poke to see what his 2nd unit after zealot is.
Some signs of gateway pressure: forge upgrading, cronoboost on forge or cyber core, early 4+ sentries.
Some signs of other tech: 2nd unit not sentry or delayed, early assimilators on expansions, gateway idle, 3+ cannons.
Send in OLs around 6:30-7:00, try to only lose 1. If he has lots of sentries to attack them, he's probably not teching. If you scout only 1 gas in main, be ready for 6 gate which can come as early as 8:00. If you scout 1 stargate, build some extra queens. If you scout 2 stargate build 2 spores at each expansion and queens from all hatcherys, focus on drones and connecting your third with creep, if you see primarily void rays you can tech to hydras to be extra safe. If you see a twilight council not upgrading anything, be wary of DT/HT. If you only see gateways building, you can drone at least until his gates are finished.
You should always be ready for a 2 base all-in until he takes his third. Don't take your 4th until he starts his 3rd.
Written in a hurry, I'm sure I've missed something.
|
I was wandering how are ultras in zvp? working from a protoss going FFE into stalker sentry collosus voidray off 3 base?
Maybe a diffent question, why isn't ling bling ultra infestor a popular strat vs protoss? popular as in you hardly ever hear about? At least I haven't
|
Hihihihihi!
Could anybody give me a broad description of the lategame transitions in all three matchups? I'm starting to have a slump in my ZvX (Random player) and I noticed it is mostly the lategame where things fall apart: Inexperience, I guess.
Playstyles:
ZvT I go for heavilly upgraded Zerglings (+1/+1 before Lair) and a MutaLingBaneling style. I like this because it is mobile, fast, and Zergie
What I want to know: 3rd after/at 10 minute push from Terran? When forth? When to transition to Broodlords? How to do so safely? When to add Infestors? 3rd hatch @ third or macro? Is +1/+1 before Lair safe? Are drops a good thing to incorporate in my play (like, after 2/2, get drop?)? How do I position my anti- drop spinecrawlers in my bases, all in the mineral line, facing the dropspot? Questions like these.
ZvP I go for InfestorLing, again, with a lot of upgrades. Against FFE I take a superfast 3rd. WHen should I get 2 spines+1 spore in my mineral line? When to transition to broods? How should my crawlerwall crawl forward? Again, are drops a good thing to invest in after 2/2? are Zerglings vialbe lategame or should I transition to Roach? Broodlord > Ultralisk or situational?
ZvZ This just feels random, I wing it from game to game. Anybody has a solid build?
It'd be great if somebody could add some replays for me :D!
Kind regards
|
On December 31 2011 06:21 CandyHunterz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 06:56 CandyHunterz wrote:what do u guys do in zvt where the terran goes 1 rax expand into mass marines medvacs with 3/3 upgrades? this is incredibly annoying. I tried taking a quick third while getting a decent muta ball and managed to get ahead MOST of the game...until his 12 marines production with 3/3 upgrades kicked in.... replay here http://www.mediafire.com/?24lgm06k009o0s9 reasking my question as ive faced more and more terrans on the ladder that use this strat instead of the helion expand that are easily dealt with. 3/3 marines usually kick in at the 14~15 min mark and i am not sure if ling bling mutas is the best way to deal with this... maybe go for stephano style with 3/3 lings completing at around the same time? the 12~15 marines production and mass medivacs is crazy annoying to deal with..
I would put it that... your question is kind of weird.
As I stated in response to someone asking about hellion into 2 base mech, you have to treat each situation on it's own, as a separate opportunity to get either ahead or behind on. For example, 2 gate into 4 gate isn't 'completely unstoppable' - you 'counter' the 2 gate with speedlings, and win the game before 4 gate is even out, but even if you don't end it, you stabilize after the 2 gate, and when you later on see 4 gate, you deal with it accordingly.
So if Terran goes 1 rax expand, it means you are completely safe from 1 base all-ins, but it also means pushes come earlier. Rine/Tank and mass marine pushes come much faster, about 10-20 supply quicker, so you have to deal with that. A common 1 rax expand follow up, for example, is 4 rax push - so you'll need speedlings, or banelings, at 50 supply (start making at 40) instead of usually making units around 60+ supply against 'normal' reactor hellion macro openings. After you handle the first push, you'll have total map control, and you totally macro up - my point is that 1 rax expands force Zerg to make units earlier, actually, rather than later, compared to 'normal' openings.
3/3 marines is just so far into the game... it has little to do with the opening that Terran did. You might want to make your own thread and post replays, but what 'generally' happens is terran does an earlier push when going fast CC, so you need to make a force of units earlier than normal, then you beat it, have total map control, and can totally macro up while T can't take his third. So assuming you handle that adequately enough in your games...
The issue of 3/3 marines on 2 base. 3/3 marines means just literally zero tanks, and very few medivacs. Despite all the QQ out there, marines actually are not that great. They are extremely frail, and any Terran will tell you how ridiculously fragile a pure marine army is. The main issue of TvZ - be it mech, or rine/tank - is the siege tank. If there are no siege tanks, you can just go pure mass ling/bane and just always win. Speedlings will beat stimmed marines in the open for cost, and add in a small number of banelings, and the equation becomes even more favorable. Essentially, any sort of mass marine play is banking on high aggression in early midgame, and is sort of all-in - if they fail to deny your third and do significant damage, they will lose all map control, and get raped by mutas (marines are shit against mutas when they have to worry about splitting against banes, which they must do if there are no siege tank support). You will definitely need a macro hatch, and if Terran doesn't have many siege tanks, you should get a 2nd evo chamber and pump upgrades. Generally, upgrades in ZvT aren't that important because +1 vehicle 2 shots all lings no matter the upgrade, and mutas are more important, but pure ling/bane vs marine, upgrades on both sides are just as useful.
As for stephano style, or this or that style.. you are overthinking it, and that's a bit too far. I don't know what league you are in, but mass bio play generally comes before any such 'style' can really develop (although pure speedling just rapes pure marine, so sure, you can do that). Just hold off the early mass bio by making enough units early on instead of droning too hard, and then you have total map control as you deny his third while your mutas wreck everything. If he isn't making siege tanks, you can delay your mutas for more upgrades on the lings, and just run on 2 gas instead of 4, and focus on lings lings lings lings.
|
In ZvP with P forge fast expanding, what kind of hints can you get frrom early scouting with overlord or poking at the front as zerg? (except by seeing the actual buildings indicating unit composition of course). I am thinking of gas timings, gateways timings, where chronoboosts are, number of sentries, etc.)
Cause I am trying to figure out a bit better what is coming out of FFE.
Also I would be interested in timings (at what time can you consider that he 2 base all ining, if he hasn't still yet taken a third, that kind of things...)
Thanks!
Your biggest priority when going fast third vs FFE, is putting 3 overlords by the Protoss base. Always, always, always, and most importantly, as in win or lose based on this, is putting an overlord by their natural's gas. That can pretty much tell you EVERYTHING you need to know. You should sac overlords at the 7:00 mark.
If you see no gas at the natural, that's quite frankly a pure zealot/stalker, with minimal sentry, 8:30 7 gate all-in or 6 gate +1 all-in (at lower levels, or any sort of stupid 8 gate or 10 gate, is just later and worse executed and easier held and easier crushed after you hold the aggression). You basically just make 100% units after 65 supply, or 8:00 (if these aren't one and the same, work on your macro).
If you see a quick double gas taken, that means stargate. Sac'ing more overlords into the base (you can sac the gas overlord once you see him take his 4th gas) can confirm for sure - if you don't see any buildings, it means no mass gateways, meaning he's relying on just 2, hard to spot stargates. If you are lucky, you can spot them, but if you see no buildings in the protoss base with 3 overlords going in, it's a sure sign he has 2 stargate tucked away somewhere (possibly even proxied!). Only a single gateway unit, like a stalker, is a further tell, and if he has no warp gate done by 7:00, that's a surefire tell he went air weapons before warp gate.
If you see him take a later third gas, it usually means macro play - FFE 1 gate cyber stargate into 3 more gates, or cyber robo into 3 more gates. It could really mean anything, but getting a sight on any number of gateways in his main (or lack thereof), and his army count behind his wall-in, should signify what is going on exactly. Really, 3 gas could be anything, but it's generally macro play. You should definitely have an evo chamber though, and you can get spores up in time even if you don't know it's stargate until the first void arrives into your base. It's possible to be DTs, but DTs usually run on 4 gas taken a bit slower than double stargate.
Seeing 3rd gas at his natural and any number of additional gateways with your sac'd overlords at 7:00 (you can't rely on seeing all of them, but if you see just a single additional gateway being made, it tells you he didn't open stargate or robo obviously), usually means blink, can be DT, and usually means more macro oriented play.
Basically, if you see quick 4 gas, make 1 spore at main and third and be ready for stargate, maybe even DT, and drone up since you know toss won't have a ground army. You are pretty safe to get your 9:00 lair as well. If you see 3 gas, it means you are safe to get lair, but you could still die if you don't make any units against warp gate pressure, so be thorough with your scouting and make a few injects of roaches before lair, or right after. If you see no gas, then it's definitely an all-in - make 100% ling/roach and prepare for the all-in. It's possible he's going fast third with no gas at the natural (you can tell if he works on his rocks on TDA, for example), in which case your massive army can simply deny his third, if not straight up kill him and his low sentry count (even if he gets the third up, you are in a good position to purely drone from there with the safety of that army you made, get speedroaches, then overwhelm him, or go mutas).
Generally, tech of choice is thrown down by 7:00. Double stargate all-in, you MUST hold with spores and queens (1 at main and third, eventually 3 per base even, and 2 by rally points or their routes). 7 gate / 6 gate +1 all-ins come at 8:30 at earliest and can knock on your door at 8:45 at the earliest (as in he's pushing with 2 units and he's warping in 6 more units so it's literally just 8 units, but neverless uncomfortably quick 8 units with quick reinforcements), so you need to be making units 100% at 8:00/65 supply and if you go lair, you die. That's pretty much it for all-ins. There's the 9:30 blink all-in, much harder to really identify, but you can tell by him massing stalkers instead of sentries at his front and 3 gas into later 4th gas, but you shouldn't get lair against it, although you could (preference really).
Just don't go lair if you see no gas at natural, and get it if you do. That's a pretty safe rule of thumb.
I was wandering how are ultras in zvp? working from a protoss going FFE into stalker sentry collosus voidray off 3 base?
Maybe a diffent question, why isn't ling bling ultra infestor a popular strat vs protoss? popular as in you hardly ever hear about? At least I haven't
They are too easily countered by zealots, which are basically free to protoss that late in the game. The only counter you can work to go with ultras is banelings - which storm rapes, so you really have to go baneling rain, which is really, really hard to keep reinforcing with as it's time consuming to morph and load up overlords, meaning protoss can just take his next base while you remake, and even worse, are extremely gas costly in a stage of the game where gas is everything, so toss is perfectly happy trading 1 zealot for 2 baneling even, as that's a favorable trade to 4+ base protoss.
BL/Infestor is a better combo - it can siege protoss, puts on more pressure, easier to remake. Ultras are more mobile on 'wide' maps like TDA, but maps that split like metal or shakuras, broods are more 'mobile'. It's also much cheaper in regards to total army cost (with supporting units), and much, much more cost efficient. Most importantly, it can break into mass cannons efficiently, whereas Ultra/bane can literally be stopped by toss massing 10 cannons at his 6th and warp ins of zealots and void rays.
ZvT I go for heavilly upgraded Zerglings (+1/+1 before Lair) and a MutaLingBaneling style. I like this because it is mobile, fast, and Zergie
What I want to know: 3rd after/at 10 minute push from Terran? When forth? When to transition to Broodlords? How to do so safely? When to add Infestors? 3rd hatch @ third or macro? Is +1/+1 before Lair safe? Are drops a good thing to incorporate in my play (like, after 2/2, get drop?)? How do I position my anti- drop spinecrawlers in my bases, all in the mineral line, facing the dropspot? Questions like these.
ZvP I go for InfestorLing, again, with a lot of upgrades. Against FFE I take a superfast 3rd. WHen should I get 2 spines+1 spore in my mineral line? When to transition to broods? How should my crawlerwall crawl forward? Again, are drops a good thing to invest in after 2/2? are Zerglings vialbe lategame or should I transition to Roach? Broodlord > Ultralisk or situational?
ZvZ This just feels random, I wing it from game to game. Anybody has a solid build?
ZVT: I don't want to say you are playing wrong, but I will say I disagree with what you are doing. Mutas are extreeeemely gas intensive, meaning you must forego upgrades on ground units. Mutas are your source of DPS - while terran can add thors, Zerg just stays on ling/bane/muta and just focuses on critical mass of banes and mutas to deal with Terran getting more advanced.
First off, you want to go for 'quicker' +1 carapace, not melee. +1 carapace is a huge deal, while +1 melee just means 1 more hit to kill a marine (whereas +1 armor means one more shot from marine to kill ling, so same effectiveness, if not more, as shown in tests about weapons vs armor). When siege tanks are at +0, they kill +0 lings in 2 shots, but +1 armor lings in 3. Huge deal. However, as soon as terran gets +1 vehicle weapons, they will always 2 shot lings, even +3 lings, so armor isn't really useful for lings (as a priority, in super lategame, obviously it's nice to get, imo preferable to get 2/2 and 2/1 mutas before infestors and hive). Generally, terran gets +1 vehicle when they get their third, and you can get your +1 carapace in time for the rine/tank push with an evo chamber dropped when lair is 50% (or earlier).
From there, +1 melee isn't really that important. You should focus on baneling speed, and muta muta muta muta muta. Get +1 melee when you can, later on. Get +2 even later later on. But mutas > upgrades.
FYI, if you get lair when +1 is 50%, you can get +2 as soon as lair finishes. I think that's a little too fast to be practical, but if you like going heavy upgrade style, there you go. That means you need to get your double evo at about 30 supply-ish? and spend your first 400 gas on things other than lair - speed, bane, 1/1, instead of what people 'normally' do of 100 speed, then 100 lair. This is assuming ~50ish supply lair, which is about the standard time for lair in ZvT nowadays, as going lair before that just kills your econ.
You go for your third as soon as you make your 2 base army and can protect your third. Generally, it means after your macro hatch is up and running (a macro hatch at 55-65 means you can drone/tech harder, as you don't need to make earlier units to defend against rine/tank or hellion aggression, so it's actually more, not less, macro oriented than just taking that hatch as a third). It's perfectly fine to just take your third as soon as you either stave off the 2 base rine/tank push, or your overseer (always make overseer of course when lair is done) sees Terran is going for a fast third.
Generally, ZvT, you just mass mutas. Terran actually has a ridiculously hard time dealing with mutas. Marines aren't really great at defending against mass muta, mass turrets means terran's expos are super late and his rax count is low and therefore his macro slumps as he banks money and his production is slower, and thors before 3 base means really, really low siege tank and medivac count meaning ling/bane just rapes. You don't really stop massing mutas until 30+, at which point Terran should basically just die (terran stops 30+ mutas by denying fourth, delaying third, and lots of pressure forcing the mutas to fight and take losses).
Of course, BL/infestor, is extremely strong, so I'm not going to say that it's 'correct' to do it one way or the other - it's perfectly viable to go for BL/Infestor quicker rather than later, maybe using pure ling/bane, or just a small number of mutas, to contain terran to allow you to tech, et cetera. I suppose just the 'standard' is don't go for BL/Infestor until well after 4+ bases and mass mutas has somehow failed to end the game, and really, they are best gotten when the game turns into split map vs split map and terran has secured his fourth. Mutas don't do well against split map, while BL/Infestor does half decent in such a scenario, as best as zerg can deal with split map.
A big problem with going BL/infestor too quickly though, is terran will be more marine heavy still as opposed to mass siege tanks, thors, vikings, and ghosts. This means Terran will be able to drop. If he sees you rush Bl/Infestor, terran can easily just mass drop you while he's on 3 base and has the income and production to just throw nonstop drops at you, although not the tech yet to be going for ghost/tank deathball stuff. BL's get wrecked by drops, so it's best to stick to mass muta and only go to BL once the game gets super late, terran starts to turtle hard on 4+ base or splits the map, and starts to tech up. Just something to keep in mind.
So.. yea, basically, I don't get infestors/hive until I'm on 5+ bases, the map starts to become split and my 30+ muta ball, either because of mass pressure or hardcore turtling, is unable to end the game. However, don't take this the wrong way - it's definitely viable to go BL/Infestor quicker. If you are going mutas though, you should at least wait until 4 bases (you can try infestor openings out if you want to try rushing bl/infestor on 3 base/earlier).
Getting 1/1 before lair though... kind of makes it pretty late, and isn't that useful. There are ways to play pure mass upgraded lings though. It's not typical, and it's a bit gimmicky, but if you want to learn about that, it's better you ask somewhere other than this general help thread. That's a bit beyond the scope of this thread. That kind of play would focus on pure drones, fast third, only 2 gas, double evo before lair and 1/1 and then lair at 50% +1/+1, you can watch Stephano's play in regards to that, and he's a much better player than I. I'm just saying it's not typical, and there's a reason it's not standard. I can bet you that Stephano's ling/bane/muta is extremely good, and that's part of the reason why he can pull something like that off (master the basics, etc).
As for overlord drop... I've recently been playing around with just straight up never getting hive or infestors in ZvT, and going muta, muta, muta, muta... eventually +2 melee... then overlord speed... then burrow... then +2 carapace .... then overlord drop. Overlord drop is too gas costly to really get, but if you are just straight up not going to go hive and only go pure muta all game long, I think it may be useful. I'm not sure. It's never worked for me, but it sounds like a decent gas dump by dumping lings into terrans' production facitilies while I have mass muta flying around. It's just something extra I suppose, but it's definitely not standard.
As for dealing with lategame drops when mutas are all out of the picture in favor of infestors and hive tech - you want to just maaassss spines. It sucks. Zerg really doesn't have a good way of dealing with drops in extreme lategame. Mutas really are zerg's only way to stop drops. First off, you definitely need perfect overlord spread, and overlord speed. In end-game, in ZvT, my overlord spread is always in such a way that I literally have map vision of 99% of the map, even on TDA I see not just every expo, but creep everywhere, with no more than 9 range between any 2 overlords. Seriously. That's first in stopping drops. It's not just enough, especially at lowers levels, to have a single sighting overlord, it's much better if you have more 'time' to spot the drop by having good vision over an area so it's more than just a red blip that pops for half a millisecond, but rather a blip you see move and can follow.
For vulnerable bases, you really need at least 3 spines by the mineral line, and another 3 spines by the base. Even then, spines arrange in a way that a drop or double drop can make it so that the terran only engages 2 spines at most. Even if you have 8 spines at a base, Terran can approach so he only engages 2, and frankly, 8 spines means only 2-3 engage at any direction, so 8 spines is just more thorough coverage and grants more time, but is nonetheless essentially just the same as 2 spines in a choke.
The key is having banelings on patrol. A few spines, in addition to 2-5 banelings on patrol around drop targets, should be more than enough to neuter drops. It forces terran to micro to avoid, and you can also micro yourself, by pulling the banes away and then sending them after his drop when he comes toward the spines. Have to have banes to defend against drops, pulling your entire muta flock to deal with a single drop is not preferable, as it forces you to not harass, and not be able to attack a Terran, even when unsieged, and allows terran to sprint across the map and set up a good siege tank set-up.
ZvP I go for InfestorLing, again, with a lot of upgrades. Against FFE I take a superfast 3rd. WHen should I get 2 spines+1 spore in my mineral line? When to transition to broods? How should my crawlerwall crawl forward? Again, are drops a good thing to invest in after 2/2? are Zerglings vialbe lategame or should I transition to Roach? Broodlord > Ultralisk or situational?
Infestor/Ling isn't really viable anymore. While FG wasn't really nerfed (egateway units still die in same number of FG, as do other less than massive/air units), NP was totally neutered. NP allowed it so that the infestor was essentially 2 units, based on it's spells. It was more like you open Ling/FG to deal with gateway and immortal and archon compositions in the early and migame, and then you went Ling/FG/NP to deal with air units and Colossi. Most importantly colossi. Now, without NP, colossi just rape infestor/ling.
Also, why are you getting fast upgrades? Yes, destiny does that, but you will never stay even with toss, and more infestors may be more preferable, or faster tech. Whatever. Maybe a single evo chamber, imo, is better, as you will never keep up in armor upgrades to toss. Whatever though, that's really inconsequential, just play with it in the unit tester.
When going infestor/ling though (some people still do it, so with good macro and counter-attacking and good ling control, yes, you can make it work), you need to grab a quick macro hatch around 55 supply, and you should transition to broodlords ASAP, as they are your only way to deal with higher tech units. You are essentially just rushing to BL/Infestor, to be honest, and using mass infestor to hold off toss, and playing extremely low econ by being on only 3 bases. Not the best way to play... but, whatever. You can make it work.
Overlord drops isn't really that great to get. You won't have many bases since you are turtling, and since on limited income, you need it all going toward more infestors or broodlords. Broodlords being such great siege units, it's preferable just to have a stronger BL army than drops, but obviously in extreme 5+ bases lategame, sure, go for it, although I'd say more BL/Infestor is better because you should be exploiting the fact your army is better in a straight-up fight.
ZvZ This just feels random, I wing it from game to game. Anybody has a solid build?
I've already posted a lot on this subject. Read the thread about ZvZ:Glaive Guillotine, if not for what the OP says, the posts I make in that thread are all I really have to say on that subject. If you are masters, go for hatch first. If you are below masters... well, hatch first is a better build, but people play sub-par enough in diamond and lower that you can make 14/14 work just fine against hatch first.
Although, I actually like Destiny's build a lot, as a sort of 'safe' econ build. He goes 14pool/16 hatch (well, i saw him do it once, but I had been thinking about it a lot recently). You don't autolose to 9/10/11 pools like hatch first does, and you aren't as far behind against hatch first as 14/14 is. You should be able to hold any sort of all-in with 14pool/16 hatch, just cancel the hatch against any 6/7/8 pool and win (or even 10 pool you could do that and come out ahead), and if opponent goes 14/14 or gas opening, just get a geyser asap and get defensive banes and 2 spines to hold any sort of baneling, speedling, or roach pressure or all-in.
ZvZ, watch Nestea.
ZvP, DRG plays a great muta style. I don't think anyone goes infestor/ling anymore at the pro level, not even destiny... so... i dont know. I think a few respectable masters zerg TLers still do it (name slips my mind, forgot the name of that poster, you should pm him, he posted about it in the thread "ZvP composition" discussion, forget exact thread name, just search for that.
ZvT, watch DRG vs Thorzain... DRG really. Nestea is okay to watch, he does a solid build. Leenock has really good decision making, but makes some basic mistakes I fear (his overlord spread is always abysmal, I have better overlord spread than he does, he literally never spread his overlords, and double spire is useless, sorry artosis and leenock, but double spire zvt was kind of ridiculous, and he gets punished quite hard for going hive so fast in his zvts, although i guess not often since he is, you know, one of the best. I suppose watch him if you prefer going faster hive in ZvT).
|
Now that I've answered literally every question, I'm going to repost my question:
I have a question, probably better for fellow masters to comment on, but anyone can really.
How do you deal with 3 gate sentry expand? So many protoss are adamant it's 'outdated' or 'bad build' but I have the toughest time with it.
I have never seen a pro vod or game either where someone went 3 gate sentry expand and it got crushed for just doing that opening. As far as I can tell, the build never got outdated, I guess just maps got so large and the natural choke got smaller so FFE got... safer? i suppose.
I think the idea is you go fast third before lair...
But assuming that assumption is correct, when do you get the third, basically, is my question: When Protoss gets their natural (about 5:30-6:00) or later, at 8-9:00? I assume you mass roach/ling for a while, but I suppose this becomes a matter of make roach/ling at 6:00, then take the third, or do you take the third, then make nothing but units for a while?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
