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+ Show Spoiler +On December 29 2011 09:31 Tobberoth wrote:
What should I do in a ZvZ if I build a big push of lings or ling/roach and attack a zerg, only to find he just got about 7 mutas out. My push will generally break his natural, but his mutas clean up my army so fast and then immediately go for my main. I feel like there's pretty much nothing you can do at this point, I make about 4 spores at each base and extra queens from my hatcheries, but it just isn't enough. The mutas get to my base too fast and do too much damage regardless of the spores.
At first, I thought I should just go all in with lings and more or less baserace him since with 4 spores a few queens, it's not like he can literally kill me... but it seems like it's just too easy for my opponent to stay safe in his main while pumping more mutas. One would assume that mutas are too expensive to build, but I haven't found that to be the case, my opponents just keep building them and taking a third/taking back their natural once enough of my drones have been killed that I can't keep producing lings.
I also tried getting hydras but hydras are just so ridiculously bad. Sure, they keep the mutas away, but you have zero possibility of attacking and your opponent can safely get his eco going and push with lings as I try to get my economy rolling again.
What do you guys do if you suddenly see mutas and you're not prepared?
corruptor roach id say
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@ TheGreenMachine
I suppose we are talking about 9 or 10 pool rush (not 6/7/8 which is different), where the rusher just sends 6 or 8 lings and then transition into macro mode, while using 2 queens to defend his main,
I am only low master, but in my game experience the following almost always work. (i have been practicing 9 pool into macro mode, for about 6 months, so it is the kind of opening i know (at my level) on both sides). Of course i can't guarantee it will work against GMs
It's an aggressive counter to the build, but I guess that any defensive macro mode strat is really safe too, as he will have nothing to put pressure with for a while. it exploits a small timing window just after the rush.
1. I first hold his zergling pressure, while removing my 3 drones out of gas after speed has started.
2. Then, non stop mass lings. Don't make any round of drones - stay on the 14/15/16 initial ones. just mass lings from the moment he attacks you. and also, NO banelings, cause banelings are expensive, and inefficient against queens with transfusion. Basically when you block your ramp with two queens, you really wish your opponent is trying to baneling bust you, cause you know how to defend then. So don't make a baneling nest.
3. and go straight for the kill with your speedlings. Really, go kill his two queens asap. You will lose your first zerglings due to ramp blocking, but in the end, you will be able to get rid of them and enter his main (transfusion doesn't last forever), and then you should win,(by flooding with zerglings).
Overall, the main point here is that you cannot hesitate, or do in between things. Again: don't make more drones and don't wait, go there with your first zerglings asap (he made rounds of drones in his base while putting pressure to catch up in economy, and for a short period of time, he should not have enough defense). The timings being pretty tighted with this opening, you may even catch him off guard with your initial zerglings (like his second queen trying to inject once and therefore not in place, etc.)
4. when you have 300 minerals expand, that will help, in case something is going wrong.
Remarks:
- Even if you don't kill him straight, you have to remember that he is low on drones and therefore will not be happy to have to make units...
- also remember that if he has 2 queens blocking the ramp, he either have to make a third one for injects, or more likely doesn't have injects, and therefore doesn't have many larvae (which is why most of the time, he will go roaches - that plus the fact that he can't have much gas - and can't have tons of lings, but these come a bit later, hence the interest of mass lings pressure). This also indicates that you can rather decide for heavy macro mode, as he will not be able to counter your for a while.
- one thing I am not sure about though, is the spine and its timing. I didn't do spines myself, so maybe it's enough to hold. But spending one more spine for defense, when you are already down in drones, and have bought several queens sounds really macro suicide. so I would assume that he has to delay it a bit to be able to make some drones; and if you put pressure back really quickly with zerglings, it won't be up on time.
in the specific case of a spine being up and queens being still there, maybe the wise solution is to switch back to macro mode, but really then, if you didn't lose too much, you should be far ahead in regard of economy. I would even consider the possibility of double expand or macro hatch... (especially when he roach-expand, which is imo the most classical follow up for this opening) ( day 9 made an old daily on this opening btw).
This is only low master advice though, so maybe he has some grandmaster superior response to this counter...
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On December 29 2011 21:53 TheGreenMachine wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I just had a ZvZ where I opened up 14 gas 14 pool 16 ovie and my opponent opened up 10 pool 10 gas 10 ovie. He was random so I drone scouted his race and opening shortly before my pool finished. So I come out 4 drones ahead after early ling vs ling skirmish. 14 vs 10 (baneling nest and i think i lost 1 drone). So I try to counter attack with lings+banes as I have more lings than him. By the time I get to his base hes got 2 queens and a spine behind them at his ramp. And hes reinforcing with lings, so after the queen dies i have to deal with 10 more lings that pop out. Am I not supposed to overcommit to ling/bane? and try to expand quicker? I notice Im floating a lot of gas since i couldnt get a chance to make many banelings. Next time play defensive after scouting him doing the 2x queen+spine thing? Any other things that im missing? Basically his expo was quicker than mine with ~5 more drones because he did 2xqueen wall at his ramp, and i lost 14g14p vs 10p and i felt i shoulda won  . Tips for fixing? (I'm high master and hes grandmaster)
imo you should build a hatch immediadly after scouting ramp block - fly in ovi if unsure whether ling/rach allin cheesy stuff.
you should be safe with your initial lings + banelingnest since you can morph in banes at your main when he moves out with a large number of lings or build lings out of 2 hatches if roaches to overwhelm early roaches.
if he doesnt move out after like 2-3 minutes and doesnt build a nat, you should be concerned about 1base muta or tunneling roaches which is why it is imperative to build a lair as soon as you can assure he isnt allining. also a roach warren should be planted down if he doesnt move out.
then mutawar/roachwar 
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ZvP
I need help in this matchup, in all other mu my winrate is about 80% (i am diamond zerg) but in ZvP it is like 0% lately.
I have gathered some replays I found (they are not the most recent), maybe you can give me some advice like:
1. how do I open the best? (I like to do a 11 pool or 13 pool but dunno how to follow that up)
2. how do I scout (1 base and ffe toss) and when? (I tend to have a scouting drone in his base until the first stalker comes out)
3. how do I respond? (against cannon rush + 1 zealot, zeal push with phoenix/vr follow up, zeal 5 sentry push, hidden dt shrine on map, straightup 2 collosus push ... then deathball with stalker/collosus/vr/ht or mass chargelot archon)
4. which style is the most sucessful lately? (roach hydra corruptor vs muta ling, I really tried to adapt muta ling but it never worked out for me)
5. how do I kill him?
replays:
http://drop.sc/users/2023/uploads
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Does anyone have the general build order for Ret's 3 base ling/roach (sometimes hydra) 200 food push against forge expand Protoss? It hits at 12 minutes, max food, he always just rolls people so hard with it on his stream, trying to learn it since it's such a safe build
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So, anyone know what...unit composition, or general strategy to do against a terran that rolls out with three thors, some scvs, and marines at the 13.30 mark?
i was playing defensively and i made 7 spines because i really just didnt know what units to make. went with lings and roaches. went horribly. all the marines died fairly quickly but the three thors being repaired lawled through my base.
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Depending on the number of marines, Roaches (if few marines) or Roaches/Banelings (lots of marines) or even pure banelings (to clean marines and scv, and damage thors, followed by zerglings, if you can afford it.
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In ZvP with P forge fast expanding, what kind of hints can you get frrom early scouting with overlord or poking at the front as zerg? (except by seeing the actual buildings indicating unit composition of course). I am thinking of gas timings, gateways timings, where chronoboosts are, number of sentries, etc.)
Cause I am trying to figure out a bit better what is coming out of FFE.
Also I would be interested in timings (at what time can you consider that he 2 base all ining, if he hasn't still yet taken a third, that kind of things...)
Thanks!
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what do u guys do in zvt where the terran goes 1 rax expand into mass marines medvacs with 3/3 upgrades? this is incredibly annoying. I tried taking a quick third while getting a decent muta ball and managed to get ahead MOST of the game...until his 12 marines production with 3/3 upgrades kicked in....
replay here http://www.mediafire.com/?24lgm06k009o0s9
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How do i play vs 1 base all ins?
I know that after 5:30 he should have expanded if he doesnt it is some sort of all in, i sac an overlord in his base and see he is doing an all in but what is the best way to respond?
Kinds of all ins: zealot voidray
stalker zealot sentry
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On December 30 2011 07:52 Guamshin wrote:
How do i play vs 1 base all ins?
I know that after 5:30 he should have expanded if he doesnt it is some sort of all in, i sac an overlord in his base and see he is doing an all in but what is the best way to respond?
Kinds of all ins: zealot voidray
stalker zealot sentry
it is more after 6:30 actually. Before 5:30 you won't see many expansions. Another (and better) indicator is the amount of sentries. at 6:30 1 or 2 sentries is a very very good sign of something going on somewhere else, 3 remains suspicious, 4 and 5, and then more, is the sign of a normal 3 gate sentry expand.
Then, if you didn't scout anything precise but think something is coming,
- put guys back to gas
- make lings and roaches.
- make spores to defend air and dts.
- make sure you have 3 queens total, and that creep links your main and nat. when you see air, make as many queens as necessary.
unit compositions: against zealot voidray the ideal is queen + roaches.
against sentries, zealots, stalkers, that sounds like a normal 4 gate, so roaches and lings. (more stalkers=> more lings; more zealots => more roaches).
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I'm new to zerg and I have questions about when to get gas, when to drone and when to get units.
1. I do 14gas/14pool/15hatch in ZvP and 14hatch/15gas/15pool in ZvT and after the initial gas I take, when is a good time to take the gas in my main and natural? I experimented with taking it at 40 supply but I feel this slows down my lair tech and teching up afterwards.
2. As I'm progressing through the game, I'm wondering at what time is a good time to produce more units than drones. I park some lings and a OL near my opponent's base so I know when they're coming and I also take xelnaga towers so I know when they're coming but it stills seems like I don't know when should stop droning hard and produce units instead.
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Can some1 plz help out me and take a look at this replay: http://drop.sc/81345
im a diamond zerg and im rlly strugeling verses protoss ..
i rlly dont see what i did wrong, exept that i could have ling/roach allined him .. but thats not how i want to win my games :/
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On December 30 2011 08:27 Automata wrote:
I'm new to zerg and I have questions about when to get gas, when to drone and when to get units.
1. I do 14gas/14pool/15hatch in ZvP and 14hatch/15gas/15pool in ZvT and after the initial gas I take, when is a good time to take the gas in my main and natural? I experimented with taking it at 40 supply but I feel this slows down my lair tech and teching up afterwards.
2. As I'm progressing through the game, I'm wondering at what time is a good time to produce more units than drones. I park some lings and a OL near my opponent's base so I know when they're coming and I also take xelnaga towers so I know when they're coming but it stills seems like I don't know when should stop droning hard and produce units instead.
1. when you get 100 gas, take all your drones out of gass and get speedling upgrade
when speedling upgrade is done, put drones back in gas and get a second/third gass .. thats how stephano does it
2. depends on each game :/
when you think he can come out, and you wont be able to produce enough units in time -> make units
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On December 29 2011 22:52 Suitup wrote:ZvP I need help in this matchup, in all other mu my winrate is about 80% (i am diamond zerg) but in ZvP it is like 0% lately. I have gathered some replays I found (they are not the most recent), maybe you can give me some advice like: 1. how do I open the best? (I like to do a 11 pool or 13 pool but dunno how to follow that up) 2. how do I scout (1 base and ffe toss) and when? (I tend to have a scouting drone in his base until the first stalker comes out) 3. how do I respond? (against cannon rush + 1 zealot, zeal push with phoenix/vr follow up, zeal 5 sentry push, hidden dt shrine on map, straightup 2 collosus push ... then deathball with stalker/collosus/vr/ht or mass chargelot archon) 4. which style is the most sucessful lately? (roach hydra corruptor vs muta ling, I really tried to adapt muta ling but it never worked out for me) 5. how do I kill him? replays: http://drop.sc/users/2023/uploads
1. Generally I use this build and works for almost all FFE
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250539
2. I scout on 10, and if my opponent 1 bases, I will transition into a Spanishiwa-style play
3. Against a cannon Rush I would pull 4 drones per cannon. focus the cannons down instead of pylons. If you get walled in
then refer to this thread
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267660
4. I do Muta/Ling/Roach and my ratios will vary based on his army comp. If he has more sentries I will get more mutas and
then if more stalkers, lings, then zealots, roaches. Then eventually try to transition into either Roach/Brood/Infestor, or,
Corruptor/Brood/Infestor. Depends.
5. Generally I try to do AS MUCH HARASS AS POSSIBLE with the mutas, never stop moving them. Force the Toss player to split his army and then kill it bit by bit with Roach/Ling. Kill Probes and Pylons.
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What are some update zvz builds i should practice? I'm just learning zerg and new to it
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On December 30 2011 15:18 xmikeyy17x wrote:
What are some update zvz builds i should practice? I'm just learning zerg and new to it
I recommend learning TangSC's 2Hatch Ling (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274426)
because not only is the entire build right there, but responses and reasoning of certain decisions are there as well
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On December 30 2011 15:45 sputnic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 15:18 xmikeyy17x wrote:
What are some update zvz builds i should practice? I'm just learning zerg and new to it I recommend learning TangSC's 2Hatch Ling (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274426) because not only is the entire build right there, but responses and reasoning of certain decisions are there as well
wow thanks a lot
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In ZvP, if the protoss player opts to go Zealot-Stalker-Stalker and then taking an expansion without pressuring - does that offer any opportunities for the zerg to exploit?
For example, would this leave him vulnerable to an early roach-ling all-in?
*edit: Specifically I mean some kind of 3gate expo where sentries are delayed until he gets warpgates at least
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I have a question, probably better for fellow masters to comment on, but anyone can really.
How do you deal with 3 gate sentry expand? So many protoss are adamant it's 'outdated' or 'bad build' but I have the toughest time with it.
I have never seen a pro vod or game either where someone went 3 gate sentry expand and it got crushed for just doing that opening. As far as I can tell, the build never got outdated, I guess just maps got so large and the natural choke got smaller so FFE got... safer? i suppose.
I think the idea is you go fast third before lair...
But assuming that assumption is correct, when do you get the third, basically, is my question: When Protoss gets their natural (about 5:30-6:00) or later, at 8-9:00? I assume you mass roach/ling for a while, but I suppose this becomes a matter of make roach/ling at 6:00, then take the third, or do you take the third, then make nothing but units for a while?
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EPT
