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On December 26 2011 22:25 Guamshin wrote: How do i play vs 1 basing protoss players? I usually go 16 pool 17gas and then i try to expand whenever i can. I don't feel like adding a roach warren but that is maybe what i need to do?
If opponent goes FFE and i take a fast third, when is it a good time to be aggresive with roach ling /roach hydra? Can i just saturate 2 bases and the third decently and then be aggresive?
Also in ZvZ, when do you get a baneling nest? I usually go 15 hatch or 14 pool 14 gas, when i see alot of lings i make it but its already too late he usually already has a baneling nest or it is almost done -_-.
Q1. Your opener is rather funky, I'd suggest going 14 gas 14 pool 21 hatch - later if its pylon blocked. You wan't to scout the protoss around the 5:30 mark, if they have no expo by then prepare for all manner of all ins. You could go with roaches but they may not be out in time to stop an allin. Vs a 4 gate you need a lot of spines (4/5/6). That 5:30 ish mark is a "switchpoint" when you start making units if you haven't scouted an expo.
Q2. You don't really want to be aggressive until you have 75 drones spread accross 3/4 expos. At this point you can trade with the Protoss, and especially try to deny his 3rd. You CAN be aggressive after full saturation of 2 bases, but again it's better if you saturate all 3 if you feel safe to do so.
Q3. Not sure, but early on obviously, I guess when gas/minerals allow it.
Ah my opener, i just copied it from a progamer called NEXNaYa, but i'll change it ^^. Thank you for your helpful answers. I got 1 more actually, is there another way to micro zerglings vs banelings? I only know selecting all your zerglings click to the banelings, shift click 1 zergling then pull away, but thats quite difficult to do when they are so close. Any tips?
God ling bling micro is hard, I personally don't do the shift click thing, I just click a ling from the pile of lings.
On December 27 2011 06:01 Xorphene wrote: I'm looking, as I work my way through solid macro games, of important early and mid-game timings I need to be aware of vs Protoss and Terran - when are their pushes likely to hit, and equally when should I be stopping droning and pumping units to defeat these pushes?
Vs T my standard build is 15h/15p/17g, ling speed, back on gas as speed completes, then bane nest/roach warren, lair next 100g, with a third around the same time.
Vs P I'm going for 12p/19h, with a third around 32 vs FFE, or 2nd gas, evo chamber, roach warren and +1 to try and be ready for 6gate.
and Vs Z, I have no idea, i've toyed with 1 base bane, 1 base roach and hatch and I get blindcountered so often it's not funny and i'm turning grey as a result!
Thanks for any help. Equally, if you think my macro builds are poor i'd appreciate feedback.
Ok, ZvZ is making me rage face so hard it's not funny, fucking hell.
Your openers are good in all MU's cept ZvZ, which is fair enough, ZvZ sucks. I personally open with aXa's Season 3 9 Pool. Against Terran, Hellions will pop at 5:00ish, and be at your front door by 6:00 ish, so you need a spine or 3 queens by then.
ZvT: A "3 Tank Push" can, at the earliest, come at 8:00 I think. Marauder Hellion all ins come at 9:00 ish. Cloaked Banshees around 7:30 I think.
ZvP: DT's around 7:30. Stargate play can vary depending on how many stargates, but you want spores at each base by 7:00 is you scout stargate play. A 4gate can hit at 5:45 if they attack with their first warp in. A 6Gate can hit, at the earliest, at 8:15.
In all MU's except ZvZ you want to overlord scout at around the 6:30 mark, with an overlord. In ZvP v gateway expo at 5:30. In ZvZ using that 9Pool build, I morph an overseer after my lair finishes, and scout around with that, you'll get it fast enough to scout if mutas are coming, along with army comp, saturation, gas taken ect.
On December 27 2011 06:01 Xorphene wrote: I'm looking, as I work my way through solid macro games, of important early and mid-game timings I need to be aware of vs Protoss and Terran - when are their pushes likely to hit, and equally when should I be stopping droning and pumping units to defeat these pushes?
Vs T my standard build is 15h/15p/17g, ling speed, back on gas as speed completes, then bane nest/roach warren, lair next 100g, with a third around the same time.
Vs P I'm going for 12p/19h, with a third around 32 vs FFE, or 2nd gas, evo chamber, roach warren and +1 to try and be ready for 6gate.
and Vs Z, I have no idea, i've toyed with 1 base bane, 1 base roach and hatch and I get blindcountered so often it's not funny and i'm turning grey as a result!
Thanks for any help. Equally, if you think my macro builds are poor i'd appreciate feedback.
Ok, ZvZ is making me rage face so hard it's not funny, fucking hell.
Your openers are good in all MU's cept ZvZ, which is fair enough, ZvZ sucks. I personally open with aXa's Season 3 9 Pool. Against Terran, Hellions will pop at 5:00ish, and be at your front door by 6:00 ish, so you need a spine or 3 queens by then.
ZvT: A "3 Tank Push" can, at the earliest, come at 8:00 I think. Marauder Hellion all ins come at 9:00 ish. Cloaked Banshees around 7:30 I think.
ZvP: DT's around 7:30. Stargate play can vary depending on how many stargates, but you want spores at each base by 7:00 is you scout stargate play. A 4gate can hit at 5:45 if they attack with their first warp in. A 6Gate can hit, at the earliest, at 8:15.
In all MU's except ZvZ you want to overlord scout at around the 6:30 mark, with an overlord. In ZvP v gateway expo at 5:30. In ZvZ using that 9Pool build, I morph an overseer after my lair finishes, and scout around with that, you'll get it fast enough to scout if mutas are coming, along with army comp, saturation, gas taken ect.
Thanks for confirming my vs P and T are solid openings, i'll definitely look into the AxA build for ZvZ. Thanks for taking the time
What are the proper responses to the following situations? I've written what I do personally but I keep losing to retarded hellion shit lately so I dunno if I'm doing it right.
See reactor hellion and he only makes 2-4 hellions: throw down evo to wall off, make two spines, make macro hatch and go lair 6:15ish for mutas, and put down baneling nest with next 50 gas
reactor hellion and he makes lots (more than four) hellions: more spines, baneling nest before lair, more lings
I've thought about going roaches but I wouldn't know to make them in time, I'd have to blindly open roaches. I mean I could roach bust him if he makes too many hellions since his tanks will be delayed but it's pretty risky
On December 27 2011 15:44 Effay wrote: What are the proper responses to the following situations? I've written what I do personally but I keep losing to retarded hellion shit lately so I dunno if I'm doing it right.
See reactor hellion and he only makes 2-4 hellions: throw down evo to wall off, make two spines, make macro hatch and go lair 6:15ish for mutas, and put down baneling nest with next 50 gas
reactor hellion and he makes lots (more than four) hellions: more spines, baneling nest before lair, more lings
I've thought about going roaches but I wouldn't know to make them in time, I'd have to blindly open roaches. I mean I could roach bust him if he makes too many hellions since his tanks will be delayed but it's pretty risky
2-4 Hellions, you've got the correct response, I', not sure about the lair/bling nest ect as I play a different style, but your defending it correctly. More than 4 Hellions, I believe you should be heading towards roaches, as if he has lots of hellions there are a couple of options that your opponent can do. Marauder Hellion all in, or go Mech. Against the first, going roaches can be a bit iffy, in the DRG/MMA blizzard cup final DRG had to use 4 spines to correctly hold it off, and I don't believe he had roaches. However against pretty much all Mech comps roaches are what you need.
On December 27 2011 15:44 Effay wrote: What are the proper responses to the following situations? I've written what I do personally but I keep losing to retarded hellion shit lately so I dunno if I'm doing it right.
See reactor hellion and he only makes 2-4 hellions: throw down evo to wall off, make two spines, make macro hatch and go lair 6:15ish for mutas, and put down baneling nest with next 50 gas
reactor hellion and he makes lots (more than four) hellions: more spines, baneling nest before lair, more lings
I've thought about going roaches but I wouldn't know to make them in time, I'd have to blindly open roaches. I mean I could roach bust him if he makes too many hellions since his tanks will be delayed but it's pretty risky
2-4 Hellions, you've got the correct response, I', not sure about the lair/bling nest ect as I play a different style, but your defending it correctly. More than 4 Hellions, I believe you should be heading towards roaches, as if he has lots of hellions there are a couple of options that your opponent can do. Marauder Hellion all in, or go Mech. Against the first, going roaches can be a bit iffy, in the DRG/MMA blizzard cup final DRG had to use 4 spines to correctly hold it off, and I don't believe he had roaches. However against pretty much all Mech comps roaches are what you need.
Against mech I get the roach warren when I see him going mech (which is when I scout with an overseer when lair finishes) and halt muta production at 15 or so. I've actually yet to face the marauder hellion all in, so I dunno what the correct response is. Four spines plus ling/baneling?
On December 27 2011 15:44 Effay wrote: What are the proper responses to the following situations? I've written what I do personally but I keep losing to retarded hellion shit lately so I dunno if I'm doing it right.
See reactor hellion and he only makes 2-4 hellions: throw down evo to wall off, make two spines, make macro hatch and go lair 6:15ish for mutas, and put down baneling nest with next 50 gas
reactor hellion and he makes lots (more than four) hellions: more spines, baneling nest before lair, more lings
I've thought about going roaches but I wouldn't know to make them in time, I'd have to blindly open roaches. I mean I could roach bust him if he makes too many hellions since his tanks will be delayed but it's pretty risky
2-4 Hellions, you've got the correct response, I', not sure about the lair/bling nest ect as I play a different style, but your defending it correctly. More than 4 Hellions, I believe you should be heading towards roaches, as if he has lots of hellions there are a couple of options that your opponent can do. Marauder Hellion all in, or go Mech. Against the first, going roaches can be a bit iffy, in the DRG/MMA blizzard cup final DRG had to use 4 spines to correctly hold it off, and I don't believe he had roaches. However against pretty much all Mech comps roaches are what you need.
Against mech I get the roach warren when I see him going mech (which is when I scout with an overseer when lair finishes) and halt muta production at 15 or so. I've actually yet to face the marauder hellion all in, so I dunno what the correct response is. Four spines plus ling/baneling?
Mass roaches is not bad against marauder helion, as it makes helions useless, so even if you are cost inefficient against marauder, it does well...
On December 25 2011 08:32 Belial88 wrote: ^ how was he able to mass void rays on 2 base if you were flying in mutas and killing everything all game long? Load up a replay, it sounds fishy what you are saying. Doesn't make much sense. Even if he did mass void rays, you should have 20+ mutas vs 2 base protoss, you just go kill his entire base in a base trade while you have 10 bases all over the map.
You take a third when they take their natural. Go lings to deny any pressure, its better than roaches.
Really? I always thought you make roach/ling first, then take the third around 8-9:00. That's what I've heard said on the subject, I really am quite curious what the answer is too. I'd love to see replay or VOD examples.
I apologize my previous post was in the heat of the moment. Upon review i made a lot of mistakes, not expanding aggressively enough, scouting etc. I've started expanding more and being more aggressive with harass/scouting and it has helped a lot. Sorry for wasting your time. This game is so frustrating.
In ZvP i usually go for an economic 10 pool. i make 6 lings and harass him and dont make anymore until i have roaches. Is it worth the possible over reaction (and some damage i may do, eg, destroy a gate, have map control really early) or should i just transition into straight up 15hatch 15 pool, as my strength is macro.
On December 27 2011 18:20 Skiblet wrote: In ZvP i usually go for an economic 10 pool. i make 6 lings and harass him and dont make anymore until i have roaches. Is it worth the possible over reaction (and some damage i may do, eg, destroy a gate, have map control really early) or should i just transition into straight up 15hatch 15 pool, as my strength is macro.
I know its a kind of confusing question...sorry
I personally like to use an 11 pool 19 hatch build in zvp because it is fairly economical since you get a queen ASAP for a fast inject, and you can also get 4 lings out so that he cannot block your expansion. However, dont expect to do any damage with your initial lings, because unless they screw up they should be able to keep them out of their base every time. Just use them to take towers, watch his front, deny any sneaky probes intending to make proxy pylons, etc.
I think you may prefer this build because it is probably the most economic early pool opening, and it is completely macro focused. It also let's you get your expansion down without interruptions or worries of cannons and things like that, which can't be said about 14 pool 16 hatch and especially hatch first. If you do want to try the build, here is my build order:
- Drone to 11 (extractor trick before ovelord) - 11 overlord - 11 pool - drone to 15 - make a queen and 2 pairs of lings when pool finishes (need to extractor trick to 19/18 - 19 overlord - 19 hatchery
If his probe is not blocking your expo then go ahead and expo before overlord (at 19) if you want, but usually they keep their probe there.
Edit: something to watch out for with this build is that if they pylon scout and scout you first then they can reactively 2gate you and that can give you a very hard time, especially on some maps. I find that when that does happen, your best bet is to get your second queen fast, and make a lot of lings while mining gas. You can then counter baneling bust him after holding off his pressure, because although he may kill your expansion (only if he really commits to the 2gate pressure), his gas will be very delayed and he shouldn't have many sentries out, if any.
When doing a pretty fast roach push (like DRG or Seth do), with 5-7 roaches, how do you defend your natural from hellion run by? I know i can block the ramp to the main with a queen, but what about the natural? Do i have to make more roaches?
When doing a pretty fast roach push (like DRG or Seth do), with 5-7 roaches, how do you defend your natural from hellion run by? I know i can block the ramp to the main with a queen, but what about the natural? Do i have to make more roaches?
I personnally always make around 7 / 8 roaches, leave 2 at home and pressure with 5 or 6. if terran tries to run by, he will get some drones, but not too many; your objective should be to defend with queens and roaches while doing damage in his base. If he defends with his helions (generally easier for you imo), instead of doing runs by, you can send your additional 2 roaches to pressure at his ramp. I would also recommend not to commit if there is a risk that you fail... better is (imo) to try to contain him while droning and taking a third. In case there is a massive helion run by, or in case you are pretty sure he will soon try to run by, you may want to add 1 or 2 roaches after your initial ones...
ZvP I need help in this matchup, in all other mu my winrate is about 80% (i am diamond zerg) but in ZvP it is like 0% lately. I have gathered some replays I found (they are not the most recent), maybe you can give me some advice like: 1. how do I open the best? (I like to do a 11 pool or 13 pool but dunno how to follow that up) 2. how do I scout (1 base and ffe toss) and when? (I tend to have a scouting drone in his base until the first stalker comes out) 3. how do I respond? (against cannon rush + 1 zealot, zeal push with phoenix/vr follow up, zeal 5 sentry push, hidden dt shrine on map, straightup 2 collosus push ... then deathball with stalker/collosus/vr/ht or mass chargelot archon) 4. which style is the most sucessful lately? (roach hydra corruptor vs muta ling, I really tried to adapt muta ling but it never worked out for me) 5. how do I kill him?
On December 27 2011 02:40 senjiroth wrote: I'm trying to get back to playing starcraft II as zerg and i was wondering what are the standard build sfor zvp zvz and zvt and what are the things i prioritize first to get back to this game?
ZvP: Roach + Ling into Roch/Ling Muta Zerg has found that protoss doesn't have any good anti air units (such as marines) and are very susceptible to getting trapped on 2 maybe 3 bases once 12-18 mutas are out. However unlike vs terran you don't go strait to mutas off 2 base while only tryin to get by on defending, as protoss will outright kill you, but instead build a decent roach ling ball then transition into muta production once you establish you're safe.
Building a roach ling army isn't neccesary if you scout well, of course you make a small army around 8 min with lings, but you don't build the roaches if you don't need them. Check likes to throw down a bunch of spine crawlers around 10~ when spire is done so whenever he is gonna get attacked he counters with mutas while building lings and defends with spines/lings and goes back with his mutas if he has too
Hi guys, I'm currently around high plat on the ladder. One problem i'm having quite alot is when a protoss Forge fast expands. I open up with 14/14 and expand at 20/21, then grab a quick third about 27. Generally I drone up like a mad man and don't mine any gas except the initial 100 for speed then start again around 35/40 food. Then I generally go for roach but always get caught with my pants down and get over-run. What are the timings generally for the protoss to be hitting me with a 6gate, or when they have enough units to attack. I know it's abit vague.... Anyone got a link of zvp tips etc... v FFE?
On December 27 2011 18:20 Skiblet wrote: In ZvP i usually go for an economic 10 pool. i make 6 lings and harass him and dont make anymore until i have roaches. Is it worth the possible over reaction (and some damage i may do, eg, destroy a gate, have map control really early) or should i just transition into straight up 15hatch 15 pool, as my strength is macro.
I know its a kind of confusing question...sorry
I personally like to use an 11 pool 19 hatch build in zvp because it is fairly economical since you get a queen ASAP for a fast inject, and you can also get 4 lings out so that he cannot block your expansion. However, dont expect to do any damage with your initial lings, because unless they screw up they should be able to keep them out of their base every time. Just use them to take towers, watch his front, deny any sneaky probes intending to make proxy pylons, etc.
I think you may prefer this build because it is probably the most economic early pool opening, and it is completely macro focused. It also let's you get your expansion down without interruptions or worries of cannons and things like that, which can't be said about 14 pool 16 hatch and especially hatch first. If you do want to try the build, here is my build order:
- Drone to 11 (extractor trick before ovelord) - 11 overlord - 11 pool - drone to 15 - make a queen and 2 pairs of lings when pool finishes (need to extractor trick to 19/18 - 19 overlord - 19 hatchery
If his probe is not blocking your expo then go ahead and expo before overlord (at 19) if you want, but usually they keep their probe there.
Edit: something to watch out for with this build is that if they pylon scout and scout you first then they can reactively 2gate you and that can give you a very hard time, especially on some maps. I find that when that does happen, your best bet is to get your second queen fast, and make a lot of lings while mining gas. You can then counter baneling bust him after holding off his pressure, because although he may kill your expansion (only if he really commits to the 2gate pressure), his gas will be very delayed and he shouldn't have many sentries out, if any.
I kind of disagree with the economy of 11 pool. If you build 10 pool before OL, you get your queen at at least 37 seconds sooner, which is nearly a full inject of drones. 4 drones 37+ seconds sooner sounds more eco, but this is just based on this intuitive view. If someone has maths to prove me wrong then I accept. Plus you can make 2 lings a lot sooner and stop any pylon blocking.
I have a question of my own: I had a terran go mass hellion into banshee into mech (thor/hellion). I scouted reactor and him just building fact early enough to put down warren and get out 4 roaches. I was on 2 base with roaches out. I defended the hellion attack and scouted him when he was half done with starport. he started starport at 4:30. I made evo and got two spores, and his banshees came. He killed a few drones before forcing him off. I droned up to 45 and then made ling roach, and got bane nest blindly. he came at me with 3 thors, scvs on repair, 11 marines, and 6 hellions and a banshee at 10 minutes exactly. he had the three thors by 9 minutes. I had ling/bling/roach, and got the scvs and most marines with bling, and took out the thors and blocked hellions and killed them with roach/ling. He's still on one base at this point. he comes back again with medivac and 11 more marines and 5 thors and scvs at 13:30. I was remaxing my army as fast as possible off 2 base wqith ~14 drones each on minerals, and made some bling, but he wiped my natural as I didn't have enough units. only about 8 roaches and 20 ling. I was doing injects but it wasthe lack of minerals and gas that hindered me. However, my question is, what more could've been done? Was this the right counter? I got roaches to help deal with hellion and thor, and ling to attack thor with and bling because I expected some marines. He was double factory single port and 1 rax-reactor. It just don't know how i could've done better because I smashed his hellion attack, smashed his first thor push, and then died to his last, while he was on a nearly mined out main. 13 minutes in and no expo from him.
What should I do in a ZvZ if I build a big push of lings or ling/roach and attack a zerg, only to find he just got about 7 mutas out. My push will generally break his natural, but his mutas clean up my army so fast and then immediately go for my main. I feel like there's pretty much nothing you can do at this point, I make about 4 spores at each base and extra queens from my hatcheries, but it just isn't enough. The mutas get to my base too fast and do too much damage regardless of the spores.
At first, I thought I should just go all in with lings and more or less baserace him since with 4 spores a few queens, it's not like he can literally kill me... but it seems like it's just too easy for my opponent to stay safe in his main while pumping more mutas. One would assume that mutas are too expensive to build, but I haven't found that to be the case, my opponents just keep building them and taking a third/taking back their natural once enough of my drones have been killed that I can't keep producing lings.
I also tried getting hydras but hydras are just so ridiculously bad. Sure, they keep the mutas away, but you have zero possibility of attacking and your opponent can safely get his eco going and push with lings as I try to get my economy rolling again.
What do you guys do if you suddenly see mutas and you're not prepared?
what i do is queen + spores initially while teching to hydra to stop them. Then later on adding infestors will demolish any kind of muta play. Just max on a big roach/hydra/infestor army and decimate his army.
I just had a ZvZ where I opened up 14 gas 14 pool 16 ovie and my opponent opened up 10 pool 10 gas 10 ovie. He was random so I drone scouted his race and opening shortly before my pool finished.
So I come out 4 drones ahead after early ling vs ling skirmish. 14 vs 10 (baneling nest and i think i lost 1 drone). So I try to counter attack with lings+banes as I have more lings than him.
By the time I get to his base hes got 2 queens and a spine behind them at his ramp. And hes reinforcing with lings, so after the queen dies i have to deal with 10 more lings that pop out.
Am I not supposed to overcommit to ling/bane? and try to expand quicker? I notice Im floating a lot of gas since i couldnt get a chance to make many banelings. Next time play defensive after scouting him doing the 2x queen+spine thing?
Any other things that im missing?
Basically his expo was quicker than mine with ~5 more drones because he did 2xqueen wall at his ramp, and i lost 14g14p vs 10p and i felt i shoulda won . Tips for fixing?
EPT
. Tips for fixing?
