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On December 31 2011 18:49 Belial88 wrote:Now that I've answered literally every question, I'm going to repost my question: Show nested quote +I have a question, probably better for fellow masters to comment on, but anyone can really.
How do you deal with 3 gate sentry expand? So many protoss are adamant it's 'outdated' or 'bad build' but I have the toughest time with it.
I have never seen a pro vod or game either where someone went 3 gate sentry expand and it got crushed for just doing that opening. As far as I can tell, the build never got outdated, I guess just maps got so large and the natural choke got smaller so FFE got... safer? i suppose.
I think the idea is you go fast third before lair...
But assuming that assumption is correct, when do you get the third, basically, is my question: When Protoss gets their natural (about 5:30-6:00) or later, at 8-9:00? I assume you mass roach/ling for a while, but I suppose this becomes a matter of make roach/ling at 6:00, then take the third, or do you take the third, then make nothing but units for a while?
I find that taking a macro hatchery and getting up a really huge Roach/ling army before taking the third ( my guess is around 8 or 9 minutes, depending on what kind of army he is going for ) should get you way ahead. Generally 3 gate expand allows you to drone up a little bit more as long as you grab the macro hatchery around the time you usually take a third because of the added benefits of extra larvae. Do note though that the best way is to get a queen for each hatchery and inject it constantly so you can overwhelm him with tons of Zerglings if need be.
In general 3 gate expands delays a lot of timings and taking a third with it is really risky. So getting ahead economically isn't that much of a priority for me. Getting up a massive Roach/Ling army while teching to Infestors usually does the trick quite nicely because the force gets so large that you can both defend an incoming push and heavily contest his third if he wants to take one.
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^ How many gas you use? I assume you use only a single gas, and make just a shitton of lings? More ling heavy?
Could you give a supply based sort of BO of how this works out? Ie what supply do you roughly take 1st gas, 2nd gas if any, roach warren, macro hatch, army, and third?'
It's interesting what you say though.You are basically saying, like I said before, that it's impossible to take a third vs FFE (then wtf, doesnt that means its a better build since its 2 base vs 2 base, whereas FFE means zerg gets free third?), and that the reason that 3 gate sentry expand became 'outdated' was because zerg started taking macro hatches against it?
I've never seen any pro korean zerg go macro hatch before third in zvp o_O
Could you provide any pro vods, replays, or replays of yourself? What you are saying is quite surprising to me. Makes sense though, I think I saw idra do it (the game i saw, I was like 'why is he getting macro hatch before third or lair' and he lost horribly to deathball and protoss being way ahead in econ and being able to take easy third in similar time to idra's third)
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has anyone experimented with ultra/ling/infestor in ZvT in the late game? how good/bad is it? i use to play with the style abit before the fungal/NP nerf on infestors but that was awhile ago at a top diamond level. i want to know if its viable at higher levels of play now.
is it easy to transition into this after mutas or is it to gas heavy? many reponses i get from ppl are "lol ultras suck" or "make ultras if you want to throw away the game and lose" but in thoery i honestly dont see any viable way for terrans to deal with ultras if they have been trying to deal with mutas all game long. ultras also benefit from any melee upgrades that your ling/banes were getting mid game.
so for all you high masters/GMs out there, how viable do you think ultras are in ZvT if there backed up with infestor, banes, lings?
its something ive been really wanting to try out again since it worked so well for me in the past, but i want to get others opinions on it since i only play at a diamond level.
also ZvZ...... this match up has always been my worse by far. it always seems like a coin flip match up for me. but this is mainly because i dont have any real solid builds for this match up. if i go hatch first i usually get ling bling all ined. if i go pool and gass first i loose because my opponent went hatch first and masses units for a all in.
no matter what i do in this match up i am either getting all inned or im the one doing the all in to the opponent. any good solid eco/macro friend builds for this match up? im really tired of the all-in random games this match up brings for me. basically all i need is some solid builds and general rule of thumb for this match up.
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has anyone experimented with ultra/ling/infestor in ZvT in the late game? how good/bad is it? i use to play with the style abit before the fungal/NP nerf on infestors but that was awhile ago at a top diamond level. i want to know if its viable at higher levels of play now.
Ultra/bane is an unstoppable unit composition. That said, it's extremely cost inefficient, and is completely countered by the one unit that makes up Terran in TvZ - the siege tank. If you can successfully lower the siege tank count by enough to be able to pull off ultra/bane/infestor, you would be better off going ling/bane.
Broodlords or mass Muta, are much better choices, in the sense that they are generally more mobile, and can actually deal with a turtle. Split map scenario extreme lategame, when ultras generally can possibly be economically viable, the broodlord is just a better alternative, and you can at least do something to someone who is turtling.
Ultras are just pretty bad in TvZ. They are only good when there are no siege tanks, but if there are no siege tanks then you've already won the game, and can just go ling/bane to mop up instead.
You deal with ultras by doing the exact same thing you've been doing - making marines, making tanks. If you successfully lowered the siege tank count with mutas, that it may be possible to go ultras, you woudl be better off going ling/bane.
this match up has always been my worse by far. it always seems like a coin flip match up for me. but this is mainly because i dont have any real solid builds for this match up. if i go hatch first i usually get ling bling all ined. if i go pool and gass first i loose because my opponent went hatch first and masses units for a all in.
It's only a coinflip to those who don't understand it.
If you want to learn hatch first, practice going hatch first against a diamond friend for a few hours, where he just constantly 14/14 ling/bane all-ins you, until you figure it out. Not hard (or just play ladder). It does require micro though. I go:
14 hatch (better than 15, 16)
15 pool
14 gas
i have enough gas when pool pops to get bane nest asap, then i get spine, queen, and 4 lings at natural. If the opponent hasn't expanded, and I scouted he opened gas, then he's definitely all-inning, and just get a 2nd spine and make only lings and morph the banes when nest pops. Don't get ling speed until you are completely safe.
It's an extremely skilled based match-up, that doesnt require, but appreciates, micro. Dont lose banes to single lings, learn to split banes to attack efficiently, learn to manually detonate banes rather than a-moving them, and learn to take a third before lair and hold aggression (if they are going 2 base lair or 3 base themselves, not against 2 base hatch tech roach/ling all-in), and learn to play the early game without ever using roaches until you go to secure your third.
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watching a replay of a game i just played i realized how strong magic boxed mutas consume the Thor fire and help the ground army prevail. i rememberd another game i though i would surely lose to a Thor push, but somehow my roaches did a massive amount of damage and i easily won the fight -> replay showed, some mutas tanking almost all Thor shots.
I'm just diamond, but maybe the pure unit on unit example is somewhat independet from league.
-> Do u find this very strong, or is it just good vs. unexperienced ops who, don't focuse fire the roaches for example ( with lings it will be hard )?
And if so, did this find recognition yet? it seems quite strong to me...
if interested my game with upgrade disadvantage and smaller army:
+ Show Spoiler +Everything relevant happens from 29 onwards: replay
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On December 31 2011 18:49 Belial88 wrote:Now that I've answered literally every question, I'm going to repost my question: Show nested quote +I have a question, probably better for fellow masters to comment on, but anyone can really.
How do you deal with 3 gate sentry expand? So many protoss are adamant it's 'outdated' or 'bad build' but I have the toughest time with it.
I have never seen a pro vod or game either where someone went 3 gate sentry expand and it got crushed for just doing that opening. As far as I can tell, the build never got outdated, I guess just maps got so large and the natural choke got smaller so FFE got... safer? i suppose.
I think the idea is you go fast third before lair...
But assuming that assumption is correct, when do you get the third, basically, is my question: When Protoss gets their natural (about 5:30-6:00) or later, at 8-9:00? I assume you mass roach/ling for a while, but I suppose this becomes a matter of make roach/ling at 6:00, then take the third, or do you take the third, then make nothing but units for a while?
I read your post, but I don't have a good answer. I can give you my thoughts on the problem though.
I think what caused most Ps to switch to forge FE was that zergs were opening 14g14p and having 12 speedlings out by 5:30 which could deny the expansion up to a minute making the zergs economically ahead. It's also weak against roach-ling all-ins unless you built forge and a lot of cannons. But now that gasless zerg openings are getting popular, the 3gate is becoming better again. The zealot-stalker-stalker push forces zerg to build lots of sacrificial slowlings if they don't want to defend with spine crawlers and that usually makes up for the later expansion put down.
Early third by the time P expands ~6:00 is obviously the most economical way to go, but that will make a potential 6-7 gate push hard to hold, as 3g expands relies on a lot of sentries and they can position themselves between your nat and 3rd and wall of your army with forcefields. You'll need to build a ton of spines to be able to defend against that kind of sentry heavy push. Early 3rd also dies to the 1 voidray into phoenix build that ogsmc popularised. Another option is to get fast lair for burrowed roaches before you take your third, making a sentry heavy push much easier to hold. That's safer but it puts you a behind vs a macro style 3 gate with a fast 3rd. Personally I go for lair before 3rd, if P went for air you'll need hydras to take your 3rd anyway.
On 2 player maps, you'll have time to get reactionary speedlings if you 14-scout irrc. If you can delay the natural you're in great shape. If he builds stalker instead of sentry as 2nd unit be ready for a poke, if he builds a stalker and doesn't poke be ready for tech. Less than 4 sentries by 6:00 probably means Air or DT, build a spore. Other than that the timings are similar to the usual Forge FE vs quick 3rd but delayed ~1 minute.
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Something that I really need some advice on is the following:
After I've saturated three bases against FFE, I have a hard time not getting supply blocked when Im starting to make roaches and lings at the 8:30 mark. Does anybody have some tips on when/how many overlords at the time you shoud make when producing roaches off of 3/4 hatches? Now it seems like I get alot of larva saved up because they are supply heavy and the overlords are not alligned with my injects finishing up
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On January 01 2012 02:06 Kamelixs wrote:
Something that I really need some advice on is the following:
After I've saturated three bases against FFE, I have a hard time not getting supply blocked when Im starting to make roaches and lings at the 8:30 mark. Does anybody have some tips on when/how many overlords at the time you shoud make when producing roaches off of 3/4 hatches? Now it seems like I get alot of larva saved up because they are supply heavy and the overlords are not alligned with my injects finishing up
Uhm, just practice mostly. At that point in you economy you should just make two overlords at a time, make sure you always have at least one producing.
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if ur goin roach heavy of 3-4 bases u need make 4-5 lord per inject round, just think of it as 1 overlord per base, i usually just build the extra 1 also to make sure^^
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On December 31 2011 05:44 Belial88 wrote:
Thanks for the response, but I really dislike getting lair before third in ZvZ or ZvP anymore. Regardless of that, I think 2 base lair means you are forced to do damage or you end up behind, and if protoss scouts or guesses right... GG. You are just behind when its 2 base vs 2 base.
But... I'm not trying to be an ass here.... so... what 2 base aggression do you do, exactly? What do you find works? It seems 2 base lair muta is okay against FFE, but it seems tougher to pull off against 3 gate sentry.
If every toss does a 2 base all-in, all that happens is I defend on 2 base, since 2 base toss > 2 base zerg, and then he expands if I don't die, and gets a third before me. tt.
I don't think so at all. When I go 2 base lair, it's on maps that are too small or too poorly designed for going muta ling, and those maps are generally the ones that P doesn't go FFE on (Shattered, Metalopolis, Xel Naga). And I almost never go aggressive off 2 base lair, I do it specifically for three upgrades - roach speed, overlord speed, and often times burrow as well. I find those three upgrades can help you deal with a great variety of midgame pushes that Protoss does, in conjunction with hydralisks or corruptors or infestors. Roach speed and burrow are often enough to hold 6-7 gate timings, and the overlord speed lets you scout from multiple directions and determine how you are going to structure the midgame.
On maps where the M.O. for protoss is FFE, the 2 base lair isn't going to be good at all, you'd be much better off going for a third base extremely early. But against a 1 gate exp or 3 gate sentry exp, there are too many midgame timing attacks with some tech that can kill you if you are going third base before lair and relying on non-speed roaches plus speedlings to hold the attacks. (4-5 gate plus voidrays, 7 gate +1 weaps, 5 gate robo with one colossus, DT allins or harass, etc etc). It's not like you have to stay on 2 base forever, it's all about getting a few key upgrades that help you defend and move on to the late game.
tldr; If he goes FFE go fast third on hatch tech, if he goes any gateway expand or 1 base go 2 base lair, IMO.
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On December 31 2011 19:36 Belial88 wrote:
^ How many gas you use? I assume you use only a single gas, and make just a shitton of lings? More ling heavy?
Could you give a supply based sort of BO of how this works out? Ie what supply do you roughly take 1st gas, 2nd gas if any, roach warren, macro hatch, army, and third?'
It's interesting what you say though.You are basically saying, like I said before, that it's impossible to take a third vs FFE (then wtf, doesnt that means its a better build since its 2 base vs 2 base, whereas FFE means zerg gets free third?), and that the reason that 3 gate sentry expand became 'outdated' was because zerg started taking macro hatches against it?
I've never seen any pro korean zerg go macro hatch before third in zvp o_O
Could you provide any pro vods, replays, or replays of yourself? What you are saying is quite surprising to me. Makes sense though, I think I saw idra do it (the game i saw, I was like 'why is he getting macro hatch before third or lair' and he lost horribly to deathball and protoss being way ahead in econ and being able to take easy third in similar time to idra's third)
Here's a replay of what I do versus a gate expand ( in this case a 3gate dt expand, regardless I do not change my build much. Against gatefirst I always take my macrohatch before third because its much safer ): http://drop.sc/68039
Yes he did go for DT's that didn't do a lot of damage, but the same would go for a lot of sentries because attacking into me would mean risking his entire game.
I don't get a lot of gas up quickly at all, because I don't really need Roaches or Lair up that fast. The trick is that your econ should be much more ahead than his on the 2 base phase faster. So you can focus your attention on crushing any of his pushes or heavily committing to killing off his third and after that countering his unit comp. Contrary to what you may believe, Roach/Ling from 3 hatches with 50 drones is okay because your army should be much larger than his with his tech and 2base econ so delayed.
I don't have pro-replays or vods of 3gate expand because it simply doesn't work at the pro level. You really only see FFE's or 1 gate expands. So I can't really help you with that.
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How do you hatch first on ZvZ? If you dont go roaches, he just goes banelings. If you go banelings, he just abuses his earlier speed and goes to your mineral line. If you go pure lings, you die to lack of speed.
Is it just a 14/14 map or is 15hatch a possibility?
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It's only a coinflip to those who don't understand it.
If you want to learn hatch first, practice going hatch first against a diamond friend for a few hours, where he just constantly 14/14 ling/bane all-ins you, until you figure it out. Not hard (or just play ladder). It does require micro though. I go:
14 hatch (better than 15, 16)
15 pool
14 gas
i have enough gas when pool pops to get bane nest asap, then i get spine, queen, and 4 lings at natural. If the opponent hasn't expanded, and I scouted he opened gas, then he's definitely all-inning, and just get a 2nd spine and make only lings and morph the banes when nest pops. Don't get ling speed until you are completely safe.
It's an extremely skilled based match-up, that doesnt require, but appreciates, micro. Dont lose banes to single lings, learn to split banes to attack efficiently, learn to manually detonate banes rather than a-moving them, and learn to take a third before lair and hold aggression (if they are going 2 base lair or 3 base themselves, not against 2 base hatch tech roach/ling all-in), and learn to play the early game without ever using roaches until you go to secure your third
no lair until 3rd? what if there going 2 base muta? how will u defend ur 3rd against mutas if your lair is so late? or what if they do a infestor roach all in off 2 base and ur lair is late? idk hatch first just seems so risky everytime id try to do it. i mean if i can hold off there all in im usually in great shape ya, but most of the times i cant which is why i say its a coin flip for me. and since my gas and lair is so late i usually lose cuz they teched faster to mutas/infestors.
also why use only lings and no roaches early game untill 3rd? again that seems risky if the opponent goes roach ling all in or roach baneling all in.
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is there a a video explaining or something about zvz?
i'm learning zerg, previously toss.
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I think what caused most Ps to switch to forge FE was that zergs were opening 14g14p and having 12 speedlings out by 5:30 which could deny the expansion up to a minute making the zergs economically ahead. It's also weak against roach-ling all-ins unless you built forge and a lot of cannons. But now that gasless zerg openings are getting popular, the 3gate is becoming better again. The zealot-stalker-stalker push forces zerg to build lots of sacrificial slowlings if they don't want to defend with spine crawlers and that usually makes up for the later expansion put down.
This makes total sense. Just a metagame shift, 14/14 is better against 1/3g expands so they went FFE, now zergs go gasless because gas is bad against 1/3g, and then so on... but maps got bigger, so 1/3g is less useful...
Although I think a big part of this, is that on GSL maps, yes, 1/3g expand isn't viable because maps like Crevasse/Terminus/Calm, where the third is 'free', zerg can easily get that third up, and then everyone copies the pros. I guess if GSL was played on ladder (XNC, Metal, ST), then 1/3g sentry is better and definitely just as good, but you don't see pros do it because they don't play those maps.
So then every P thinks it's a bad build because no pro does it, but really it's due to the super large maps that make it less useful. And I never said 1/3g expand was a good build on such large maps, but on 'standard' ladder maps, it's extremely powerful.
Early third by the time P expands ~6:00 is obviously the most economical way to go, but that will make a potential 6-7 gate push hard to hold, as 3g expands relies on a lot of sentries and they can position themselves between your nat and 3rd and wall of your army with forcefields. You'll need to build a ton of spines to be able to defend against that kind of sentry heavy push. Early 3rd also dies to the 1 voidray into phoenix build that ogsmc popularised. Another option is to get fast lair for burrowed roaches before you take your third, making a sentry heavy push much easier to hold. That's safer but it puts you a behind vs a macro style 3 gate with a fast 3rd. Personally I go for lair before 3rd, if P went for air you'll need hydras to take your 3rd anyway.
I think MC popularized such stargate gate expands before zergs got into third before lair. I think the idea behind MC's stargate openers was prevent zerg from taking a third, and then his build got sort of 'outdated' when Zergs started going fast thirds, or thirds before lair, which lets you get the third and spore it up in time.
I was generally asking about third before lair, sorry if you misunderstood that, I didn't make that clear in that post. If you go 2 base lair vs 1/3g expand, that lets protoss take their third at a comfortable time, and it means zerg doesn't get his third in forever, and it's basically 2 base vs 2 base for forever.
I think 1 gate expands with stargate, like MC style, are 'easy' to deal with - you take a fast third, and since you know no gateway units can prevent it, you just take it super fast, and you can spore it up against any sort of stargate play in plenty of time. I disagree you need hydras to deal with it, and I think the reason that sort of play got 'outdated' was because zergs like losira and nestea started to go super fast third, while stargate openers are meant to just deny thirds taken quickly after lair. Back then I don't think people understood how fast zerg could take their third.
As for speedling pressure, I've found that even if you delay the Protoss 3 gate expo with speedlings, you won't delay it enough to make up for it. I actually made a thread about it - well I actually made a QQ/Help Me thread - and I delayed the Protoss expo for a very long time, and forced many cancels. Through analysis, it turns out that making 20 speedlings and forcing 2 cancels on a 3 gate expand, or 2 gate expand, or 2 gate stargate expand, is actually not worth it, because you end up cutting so many drones that it's not worth it. I was surprised at that really.
You only make speedlings if it's a 1 gate expand, and just enough to force the first cancel. Once protoss has 3 gates going (either 3 gate expand, or 1 gate expand forced cancel into 3 gate expand), you shouldn't make any more lings to force a cancel, because it just cuts wayyyyy too many drones.
Cutting 10 drones at a time you don't need to make any units at all, against 3 gate expand, is definitely not worth delaying an expo for a minute, basically.
I don't have pro-replays or vods of 3gate expand because it simply doesn't work at the pro level. You really only see FFE's or 1 gate expands. So I can't really help you with that.
I think that's not true, plenty of pros go 3 gate sentry expand still, like Sase, Huk, et cetera. You don't see 1/3g expands at the pro level because tournaments, like the GSL, use GSL sized maps. Obviously, 1/3g expand is horrible if Zerg can take an easy third or the map is super big. I'd say Shakuras borders on the size of where FFE and 1/3g expand are both viable. So that's why I think we stopped seeing 1/3g expands.
Because there was never any GSL season where protoss went 1/3g expand most commonly and just lost everytime. I think when FFE got popular, Zergs were actually losing more than winning against protoss.
How do you hatch first on ZvZ? If you dont go roaches, he just goes banelings. If you go banelings, he just abuses his earlier speed and goes to your mineral line. If you go pure lings, you die to lack of speed.
Is it just a 14/14 map or is 15hatch a possibility?
Not really. 14/14 is considered a loss to 15 hatch (14 hatch is actually proven to be better).
When going hatch first, you absolutely need to get gas (latest is 17 really). There are multiple ways to defend.
1. Roaches. I don't think this works if the opponent doesn't expand on 21, not sure, but if you see him throw an expo down at 21 you can throw down warren and be safe. This only works, obviously, on maps with a choke in range of the natural (not XNC, but yes on Shakuras, for example), and you have to open with...
2. Double Queen. Using double queen, and a spine or two at natural, you can block the ramp and be safe.
3. Banelings. This is the most common - I go 14h/15p/14g, you can go 14/15/15, or even 14/15/17, but you go banelings before speed. Even against 12 pools, you will have the banelings out in time. Against a 14/14 all-in with banelings, you will have banelings just slightly before he does. If he goes bane then speed, it's arguably easier to hold but definitely more micro intensive (i suppose that doesnt sound like much sense, but basically his army is smaller and no speed meaning your lings are more effective, but you need to micro more).
If he is running past you, it sounds like you aren't micro'ing well or getting baneling in time. If the opponent opened 14/14, you need to put a single spine at natural, and I recommend a single bane by the top of the ramp to prevent runbys. Don't just make 2 banes, make a bunch, and you shouldn't get ling speed until you know you are completely safe and you held off his 1 base aggression (even if he goes 21 speedling expand, you can't get speed until you know you are well and safe, 4 banes can be overrun by 3 larva injects of speedlings).
no lair until 3rd? what if there going 2 base muta? how will u defend ur 3rd against mutas if your lair is so late? or what if they do a infestor roach all in off 2 base and ur lair is late? idk hatch first just seems so risky everytime id try to do it. i mean if i can hold off there all in im usually in great shape ya, but most of the times i cant which is why i say its a coin flip for me. and since my gas and lair is so late i usually lose cuz they teched faster to mutas/infestors.
If he's going 2 base muta, you just have spores out in time... You can put down the spores when his spire just completes, and they will pop in time. 2 base muta can't really make that many mutas, at most he'll have maybe 10 mutas arrive at first to be met by 2 spores and queens. Your own mutas will arrive shortly (or your hydras will arrive just in time) afterwards. With your huge economic lead, as long as you don't take too much damage from the mutas, you will just crush him, as you'll pop a good 15+ mutas immediately.
There's a reason why ZvZ isn't just autolose to whoever goes lair fastest. Generally, whoever goes lair later, is in a better position, because lair cuts your drone count by about 20. Of course, fast mutas can surprise you, but as long as you defend, you will be fine. You just need to scout what he's doing better (it's really just "is he making roaches? or is he not making roaches? or Does he have 4 gas, or not. Did he mass spines at the front of his base, or not.). If he goes 2 base infestor vs your 3 bases, just go mass roach and overwhelm him. You'll have roach speed well before he has infestors in strength.
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I don't think so at all. When I go 2 base lair, it's on maps that are too small or too poorly designed for going muta ling, and those maps are generally the ones that P doesn't go FFE on (Shattered, Metalopolis, Xel Naga). And I almost never go aggressive off 2 base lair, I do it specifically for three upgrades - roach speed, overlord speed, and often times burrow as well. I find those three upgrades can help you deal with a great variety of midgame pushes that Protoss does, in conjunction with hydralisks or corruptors or infestors. Roach speed and burrow are often enough to hold 6-7 gate timings, and the overlord speed lets you scout from multiple directions and determine how you are going to structure the midgame.
You are 2 base vs 2 base. You are behind the Toss. I can hold any protoss aggression on 2 base, that's not the issue. I'm just asking about how to stay even with Toss, which requires getting a third. And people already know how to hold 6-7 gate all-ins when going fast third, why would you want to go 2 base lair.
You don't answer my question at all, sorry. I have no problem going three bases against toss who does any sort of opening, and does any sort of 2 base all-in.
My problem/question, is how to take a third against 1/3 gate expands, and survive his opening 3 gate zealot/sentry pressure. I have a difficult time figuring out when to take my third against 1/3gate expands, and when to make units. Do I make units, then take the third? Or do I take the third, then make units 100%? Once I've taken the third, any sort of 2 base all-in protoss attempts to do is rather easy to hold off.
I think you may be playing at a lower level, but any sort of 6-7 gate all-in can be held off quite easily when going fast third. If you are going 2 base lair against it, it means you are behind - Toss can just 7 gate you, keep you stuck on 2 bases, then take his third. Sure, maybe you don't die, but then Toss gets his third up earlier, or let's just say he even just takes it the same time as you do. Not a good position at all. You aren't 'surviving' 7 gate all-ins if toss can prevent you from taking your third.
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So here's my question, again:
When do I take my third against a 1/3 gate sentry expand? Obviously, I am going third before lair, as 2 base lair is not a good position to be in against 2 base protoss, since it's just 2 base vs 2 base, and toss can get a stronger army than you can on 2 base, and so Toss can take his third in a similar time as the Zerg does, and I'm also asking about 'solid' play, not some "well 2 base muta is good if you catch them off guard".
Anyways, analyzing this replay:
Here's a replay of what I do versus a gate expand ( in this case a 3gate dt expand, regardless I do not change my build much. Against gatefirst I always take my macrohatch before third because its much safer ): http://drop.sc/68039
Very cool how you send a drone at 10/10, and that it arrives even if you scout last base, on Metal, to see if he went forge or not. I however, go 14 pool on that map, because I take the gold as my first base against FFE (and then take natural as fast third), and you can't defend cannon rushes there succesfully since pulling drones that far hurts your econ too much if he just backs out. I think maybe I'll do that 10 scout though, because if they go 1/3 gate expand I can see if I should go hatch first, or go 14 pool gold.
Ah dude, he did't 1/3 gate expand, he went DTs.
The reason I'm asking about 1/3 gate expands, is because the 3 gate pressure from such an expand is so damn hard to deal with if you go fast third. If they go DT or SG, you can simply take the fast third and then just spore it up. Against DTs I suppose you can just go 2 base lair and end up ahead when he doesn't do damage. Not exactly what I was looking for ><
You also could've forced a cancel by seeing he went gateway build, so took gas quickly, made 1 larva inject of lings with your 2nd or 3rd larva inject, and just killed shit way before any of that tech would've came out. You knew he was going 1 gate expand.
What level of play is this too? you go lair way too fast, the protoss banks a ton of gas and takes his natural's geysers too quickly when he still has nothing to spend his gas on, he makes no sentries or units, you make a roach warren super early for no reason (if you are going 2 base lair, you dont need a roach warren, spines do a much better job, you only need roaches if you are planning to all-in or take your third). Your lair was wayyyy too fast too. Once his DTs failed though, you just won the game, he did zero damge with them. You could've done anything to win.
I appreciate your input, but I don't think this replay answers my questions ><
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Whats the best way to deal with a Terran throwing up a Bunker close to your nat prior to a 15 hatch finishing. The Terran has 1/2 marines rallied to it. This seems to do way more damage to me than it should and also throws me of my "game".
Pulling 4-5 drones doesn't really seem to accomplish anything. At the point when this happens lings are either just starting or halfway done.
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if you guys want help with ZvP, I suggest reading Gerbil's comprehensive guide. It's basically all there. Take the time to watch the replays and your ZvP winrate will go up.
But, on the flip side - how the fuck do you deal with this bullshit oGsFin reactor hellion into cloak banshee into thor all-in? They can even macro behind this too. It seems impossible to deal with. I seriously need help and replays too thanks
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On January 02 2012 06:36 ItchyLegs wrote:
But, on the flip side - how the fuck do you deal with this bullshit oGsFin reactor hellion into cloak banshee into thor all-in? They can even macro behind this too. It seems impossible to deal with. I seriously need help and replays too thanks
There should be enough answers in this thread.
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EPT
