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On January 02 2012 23:11 arena_say_what wrote:
What is the correct decision to make when Protoss go FFE into mass stalker sentry high templar off 6-7gates? Mass roach into brood lords? I'm so used to facing up against the deathball not too sure how to react to this unit composition
just mass roach with burrow speed and burrow movement should do fine. both templars and sentries are not all too good vs roaches with burrow movement, just make sure to split properly / run out of storms and engage from 2 sides or so.
teching to broodlords against a protoss who is on 6-7 gates on, i assume, 2 bases (otherwise he should have more) is suicide.
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What is a viable tech transition out of 2 base muta harrass while expanding behind it when your opponent goes gateway blink heavy builds after FFE?
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On January 03 2012 00:48 They_ wrote:
What is a viable tech transition out of 2 base muta harrass while expanding behind it when your opponent goes gateway blink heavy builds after FFE?
thats pretty much a buildorder loss. going 2 base muta blindly against forge FE is not very good in my opinion. the only case where i think its okay is if you see that your opponent is going robo and you are on a map with rocks at your third.
sometimes you have to search for mistakes earlier in your game and not worry about transitions out of BO losses.
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On January 02 2012 23:15 Asolmanx wrote:
ZvT
Is making a spore in evey mineral line to help against drops viable? is it a bad idea? is it worth it?
i dont think its worth it in the midgame, maybe in the lategame. otherwise another spine seems better.
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New Zealand459 Posts
Whats the best way to deal with a Terran throwing up a Bunker close to your nat prior to a 15 hatch finishing. The Terran has 1/2 marines rallied to it. This seems to do way more damage to me than it should and also throws me of my "game".
Pulling 4-5 drones doesn't really seem to accomplish anything. At the point when this happens lings are either just starting or halfway done.
Also whats the best way to deal with reactor hellions, 4 Queens or 2 spines?
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On January 03 2012 01:31 Host- wrote:
Whats the best way to deal with a Terran throwing up a Bunker close to your nat prior to a 15 hatch finishing. The Terran has 1/2 marines rallied to it. This seems to do way more damage to me than it should and also throws me of my "game".
Pulling 4-5 drones doesn't really seem to accomplish anything. At the point when this happens lings are either just starting or halfway done.
Also whats the best way to deal with reactor hellions, 4 Queens or 2 spines?
it depends what you see on scouting. More likely it's a 2 barracks opening. In that case a good rule of thumb is to pull between 7 and 9 drones (6 drones +1 per scv from the terran), fight his scvs and early marines to avoid the construction of a bunker, and rally zergling asap when your spawning pool has finished. You really should not let the bunker finish, but if you expect that it does, then start a spine. if your zerglings have arrived, and bunker has not finished, then you are fine, and bunker rush is over (which doesn't mean there won't be more pressure). It's not easy to do, and a good guide on this would probably need to go more in depth, as there are different variations; but basically that's it.
if terran doesn't have two barracks, then pull off 3 or 4 drones, and go deny the bunker construction. it's either a fake 2 rax rush, or just a small 1 rax rush (not a big danger, unless you don't take care of it correctly) or a reaper bunker rush maybe.
to deal with reactor hellions, the mainstream defense is spines, queens and zerglings; but full queens, and roaches are seen here and there. I am tempted to say that this is not a major issue (although it is certainly worth to discuss!)
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^ btw 14 hatch has been proven to be better than 15 hatch.
But you need to use drones to deny bunkers. That's the only way to do it. Watch some of Nestea's ZvTs in GSL season 4+ against cheesy terrans like bitbybit, polt, mkp, et cetera. GSL season 2 finals are good too (nestea vs mkp).
Also, on 'blizzard' maps, at about 16-17 supply, you need to send a drone to patrol the ramp (or two, in case of shakuras, to also deny select-style 3 bunker block at natural choke).
It's absolutely important to have an overlord watching the choke to natural/natural hatch to spot for bunkers. You need to keep mind of that scouting SCV, and if he's not on creep in your main and out of vision, you need to send a single drone to see what he's up to. Then, when bunkers are being made, send 2 drones to attack that first SCV, and then against additional SCVs about 2 drones per. When the marines come, about 4 drones per marine, and at less then pro level, you'll be okay just pulling 75% of your drones (once you get high level you can practice with getting away with pulling less).
But lings will never come in time to deny a bunker ramp block or cute bunker placement. Have to use drones to deny it. When his first 1-3 marines arrive, you send a good 4 drones per marine to chase them off/kill them. When lings pop, you can then send the drones back to mine and make a single spine (as queen should be out too).
You make 8 lings minimum, a queen at natural, as opposed to 2 queens at once when not dealing with 2 rax. You can make 10+ if you aren't skilled enough yet to handle it with just 8+drone micro, but if you sense a 2 rax, just transfer 75% of your drones and use them aggressively. You absolutely cannot let a bunker finish, and you can't use lings to deny bunkers because they won't finish in time. If a bunker gets up because you weren't vigilant with drones, it's GG basically, and you'll be lucky if you can end the situation without being straight up killed.
Again, I repeat, you must 100% use drones to deny bunkers, or else you lose basically. You have to have a good 2-3 drones on each building SCV and shift right click shift right click so it sticks to it when it moves positions while building. Lings, queen, pspines, will never be out in time - all you are doing with drones is denying bunkers and buying time for your lings and queen to pop. Eventually get a spine, then two, to prevent scv all-in follow ups from rolling you, and then just drone up forever.
Pulling 4-5 drones isn't enough. Against building SCVs and 2-3 initial marines with 2 rax rallied, you need a good 8+ drones at least. Below GM level, you can never really pull too many drones. Just pull 80% of your drones and a-move them at lower levels, and work your micro so you have some drones focus firing building scvs and the other drones focus firing the marines instead of buffering SCVs sent.
Seriously. Watch Nestea vs MKP, and other similar games. And search,this has been talked about a million times.
Best way to deal with reactor hellions, make a 3rd queen, block ramp with it and bring other queens to ramp when hellions come nearby, put a spine covering ramp, and another to cover natural's mineral line. Add a third if he makes more than 2 Hellions (ideally, make a third if he makes more than 4 hellions, but generally you can't tell if he's making more or not so that's why you put it down at 2+, bersides, won't finish in time).
Using roaches is not a good idea, because it hurts you econ too much, but there are good roach rush builds against hellions (28 supply warren, no drones afterwards, 2 overlords, make 10 roaches all at once, push, profit if he made more than 4 hellions or no bunkers/tanks/marauders).
4 queens and 2 spines is really, really killing your econ. Remember, he's fast expanding behind it, so any dip you take in minerals/larva/econ really sets you back. You really need to use just 3 queens, and 2 spines, and eventually get a 3rd spine if he's making lots of hellions or it's a wide map (XNC). Make sure one queen blocks ramp and you are ready to block it off with others if he tries to bumrush. The point is to gradualy add defense, don't just make 2 extra queens and 4 spines all at once.
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New Zealand459 Posts
^ thanks guys,
Another question  - Whats the best way to deal with a 1-2 reaper opening. I obviously can't have speed fast enough, queens usually come out just after the reapers arrive. This can be with and without a bunker aswell.
Also with my earlier question, it's literally just 1-2 marines and a bunker. Should I just have 4-5 drones ready to be transferred and down by my nat ready for when the hatch pops?
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dude seriously, please search this stuff. it's been done a million times -hell i've answered it a million times- as soon as I made that post, that I meant to just take 10 seconds to write but ending up writing all that stuff that i've already posted EXACT SAME POST in other threads a million times before, i just facepalmed.
deny bunker with drones or gg.
dont get supply blocked. if your 2 queens aren't popping in time, then you are screwing up your macro. your initial 2 lings should also be out to buy time even.
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On January 03 2012 01:46 Belial88 wrote:
^ btw 14 hatch has been proven to be better than 15 hatch.
where?
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Hey guys, Im currently low masters zerg, and im struggling in ZvP right now. Infact, with my understanding of the matchup, i dont know how i even got past gold ;_;
I have 2 big PvZ questions that are really hindering my drone timings/play:
How do i tell the difference between a 1 gate expand and a 3 gate?
I know this seems obvious (look how many gates he has), but I need something specific such as timing of expo, etc.
Like, if a toss goes 3 gate expand, when does he push out? When does he put down his extra gates/ tech? When does he drop the nexus? How many units/ what unit comp does he have?
And the same questions for a 1 gate expand.
Another question is :
How do I know if a toss will all in me after a FFE?
I know I should scout around the 7:00 mark, but what am i looking for? I think that if I see a robo, then its safe to say hes not going to allin me and go for a third?
Basically, how many gates/ what tech will he get if he all ins me, or how many gases does he have, or when he gets his third, etc.
Any help would be great!
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Arghh so I just transitioned from 14/14 to 15 H 15 pool vs terran and I ALWays get 2 bunkered rushed. I saw it this game pulled my drones by the svc is in a position where i cant even attack it wtf?!
http://drop.sc/82812
Shd I just go back to 14 /14 ? When i do that my delayed hatch gets owned by helions ;(
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what did you play before? 14g14p or 14h14p? 14g14p is terrible against terran. sometimes you can get really unlucky with scv movement while it builds the bunker, but generally you should be able to prevent it from building a bunker if you control properly, and pull enough drones.
edit: and pull the drones early enough :>
if you just switched from pool first builds to hatch first its probably going to take a bit till you have the necessary practise to defend against all the early game shenanigans.
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DarkFoRcE, glad to see you posting, I would love some help.
I am just confused in ZvP (top diamond/low masters) against FFE -> robo. I get 3 hatch before Lair, active scout with lings to deny pylons, check the Forge for upgrades, check the gas, and I don't really have a problem against any SG/2SG builds or gateway timings. My problem comes with the robo. I don't know what to do when I see a robo. I try to use changelings to scout the colossus count, but good tosses rarely let that happen. Even when I do scout it, I make 4 Corruptors per Colossus, engage with roach/ling/corruptor, but my ground army never seems to be good enough. And then there are Tosses that make the robo bay/facility, I scout it, then they just never build colossus and build immortals instead, and my corruptors are utterly useless and I just die. I am so lost... I try to not play Muta/Ling in ZvP but this is making me want to just base trade and get it over with.
Also, Antiga Shipyard... I don't know why Z's like this map. It is near impossible for me to deny Toss or Terran a third base because they just wall if off and put 2-3 cannons back there. How do you deny a third on Antiga?
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against robo openings you can really try to go muta. generally most of the game will be decided by whether you drone enough at the right time. after that, unit composition is not THAT important anymore. if you opponent is going robo -> immortal or colossus, muta/ling pretty much hardcounters that.
if he moves out of his base, just always counterattack, never fight his army. if he takes a third, he will be spread quite thin and you should be able to do damage with mutas and ling runbyes / attacks on the third etc.
the danger of going muta is that if he goes robo just for the obs and then follows it up with blink immidiately, mutas are not a very good choice.
i personally just drone rather greedily most of the time and try to find out whether he just goes for a slow third (more drones + t3 then) or whether he goes for a timingpush (roach ling, +corruptors vs colossus) then. also, if he goes immortal, couterattacking with lings when he leaves his base can be quite strong, as the army will be pretty immobile, and Ps often forget to tighten their wallin again behind them. this can pretty much outright win you the game.
on antiga its quite hard to deny a third, so if you see them taking one, just take the middle and tech to broodlords and hold the watchtower.
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On January 03 2012 05:51 DarKFoRcE wrote:
against robo openings you can really try to go muta. generally most of the game will be decided by whether you drone enough at the right time. after that, unit composition is not THAT important anymore. if you opponent is going robo -> immortal or colossus, muta/ling pretty much hardcounters that.
if he moves out of his base, just always counterattack, never fight his army. if he takes a third, he will be spread quite thin and you should be able to do damage with mutas and ling runbyes / attacks on the third etc.
the danger of going muta is that if he goes robo just for the obs and then follows it up with blink immidiately, mutas are not a very good choice.
i personally just drone rather greedily most of the time and try to find out whether he just goes for a slow third (more drones + t3 then) or whether he goes for a timingpush (roach ling, +corruptors vs colossus) then. also, if he goes immortal, couterattacking with lings when he leaves his base can be quite strong, as the army will be pretty immobile, and Ps often forget to tighten their wallin again behind them. this can pretty much outright win you the game.
on antiga its quite hard to deny a third, so if you see them taking one, just take the middle and tech to broodlords and hold the watchtower.
Alright.
If you have the time, I'm gonna play a bunch of SC2 right now, and try to post some reps. If you could take the time to view them when you can and correct me where I'm going wrong, that would be great. I'll actually try and voice over them to explain my thought process with the replay.
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Great to see some blue in this thread again
While you're here Darkforce, I'd like your opinion on a couple of matters:
A) When and how to take your 3rd vs a standard FE protoss on shattered temple/xel'naga/tal'darim/other maps with less accessible 3rds? If you take them "normally", how do you defend against a 2 base timing attack vs that 3rd expansion?
B) How should you prepare for gateway pushes on ladder maps with close air spawns (temple/metal/antigua etc) where they can essentially place a forward pylon in their base and hug the wall while pushing your base?
C) Any general tips with handling a base-trade situation?
Other zergs may of-course give their opinions too.
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On January 03 2012 06:07 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 05:51 DarKFoRcE wrote:
against robo openings you can really try to go muta. generally most of the game will be decided by whether you drone enough at the right time. after that, unit composition is not THAT important anymore. if you opponent is going robo -> immortal or colossus, muta/ling pretty much hardcounters that.
if he moves out of his base, just always counterattack, never fight his army. if he takes a third, he will be spread quite thin and you should be able to do damage with mutas and ling runbyes / attacks on the third etc.
the danger of going muta is that if he goes robo just for the obs and then follows it up with blink immidiately, mutas are not a very good choice.
i personally just drone rather greedily most of the time and try to find out whether he just goes for a slow third (more drones + t3 then) or whether he goes for a timingpush (roach ling, +corruptors vs colossus) then. also, if he goes immortal, couterattacking with lings when he leaves his base can be quite strong, as the army will be pretty immobile, and Ps often forget to tighten their wallin again behind them. this can pretty much outright win you the game.
on antiga its quite hard to deny a third, so if you see them taking one, just take the middle and tech to broodlords and hold the watchtower. Alright. If you have the time, I'm gonna play a bunch of SC2 right now, and try to post some reps. If you could take the time to view them when you can and correct me where I'm going wrong, that would be great. I'll actually try and voice over them to explain my thought process with the replay.
sorry i dont watch replays^^
On January 03 2012 06:26 VoirDire wrote:Great to see some blue in this thread again While you're here Darkforce, I'd like your opinion on a couple of matters: A) When and how to take your 3rd vs a standard FE protoss on shattered temple/xel'naga/tal'darim/other maps with less accessible 3rds? If you take them "normally", how do you defend against a 2 base timing attack vs that 3rd expansion? B) How should you prepare for gateway pushes on ladder maps with close air spawns (temple/metal/antigua etc) where they can essentially place a forward pylon in their base and hug the wall while pushing your base? C) Any general tips with handling a base-trade situation? Other zergs may of-course give their opinions too.
a) on shattered i dunno, i often allin if they forge expand, because i feel like a macrogame is quite hard if they forge expand and proceed greedy. xelnaga i dont play anymore, taldarim i take the third far away if its cross or close with the 4th being far away from him (and not close to his main as on the other close pos). if i dont allin on ST or its the bad position on TDA i play stuff like 2 base infestor into third into fast broodlords or 2 base muta into third or 2 base hydra nydus. just play something risky because youre behind if the map doesnt allow you to take a third quickly.
some ppl build a hatch next to rocks on st or tda, i personally dont like that, but maybe i just suck with it.
b) build roaches?
c) uh practise? against terran baneling landmines are pretty good in that case. but its super situational and you'll get better over time
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On January 03 2012 06:43 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 06:07 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 03 2012 05:51 DarKFoRcE wrote:
against robo openings you can really try to go muta. generally most of the game will be decided by whether you drone enough at the right time. after that, unit composition is not THAT important anymore. if you opponent is going robo -> immortal or colossus, muta/ling pretty much hardcounters that.
if he moves out of his base, just always counterattack, never fight his army. if he takes a third, he will be spread quite thin and you should be able to do damage with mutas and ling runbyes / attacks on the third etc.
the danger of going muta is that if he goes robo just for the obs and then follows it up with blink immidiately, mutas are not a very good choice.
i personally just drone rather greedily most of the time and try to find out whether he just goes for a slow third (more drones + t3 then) or whether he goes for a timingpush (roach ling, +corruptors vs colossus) then. also, if he goes immortal, couterattacking with lings when he leaves his base can be quite strong, as the army will be pretty immobile, and Ps often forget to tighten their wallin again behind them. this can pretty much outright win you the game.
on antiga its quite hard to deny a third, so if you see them taking one, just take the middle and tech to broodlords and hold the watchtower. Alright. If you have the time, I'm gonna play a bunch of SC2 right now, and try to post some reps. If you could take the time to view them when you can and correct me where I'm going wrong, that would be great. I'll actually try and voice over them to explain my thought process with the replay. sorry i dont watch replays^^ Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 06:26 VoirDire wrote:Great to see some blue in this thread again While you're here Darkforce, I'd like your opinion on a couple of matters: A) When and how to take your 3rd vs a standard FE protoss on shattered temple/xel'naga/tal'darim/other maps with less accessible 3rds? If you take them "normally", how do you defend against a 2 base timing attack vs that 3rd expansion? B) How should you prepare for gateway pushes on ladder maps with close air spawns (temple/metal/antigua etc) where they can essentially place a forward pylon in their base and hug the wall while pushing your base? C) Any general tips with handling a base-trade situation? Other zergs may of-course give their opinions too. a) on shattered i dunno, i often allin if they forge expand, because i feel like a macrogame is quite hard if they forge expand and proceed greedy. xelnaga i dont play anymore, taldarim i take the third far away if its cross or close with the 4th being far away from him (and not close to his main as on the other close pos). if i dont allin on ST or its the bad position on TDA i play stuff like 2 base infestor into third into fast broodlords or 2 base muta into third or 2 base hydra nydus. just play something risky because youre behind if the map doesnt allow you to take a third quickly. some ppl build a hatch next to rocks on st or tda, i personally dont like that, but maybe i just suck with it. b) build roaches? c) uh practise? against terran baneling landmines are pretty good in that case. but its super situational and you'll get better over time
ah okay =(
fun question: what was going through your mind when you saw Happy's marine micro?
^.^
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no clue what youre talking about, i havent played against happy in a while. his marine micro is really good.
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EPT
