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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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nicke10
Sweden114 Posts
In ZvT I'm thinking a DRG bust with roaches and banelings and take a third behind it while keeping the pressure until about half build time of the hatchery where you start to make drones for it so it can be fully saturated when it's finished. In ZvP vs 1 base: ling aggression to deny expansion into taking early thirds on maps that allows it or teching to something (drop, burrow roach attackk, mutas) vs FFE: I don't really know how to be aggresive here without all ins like nydus, hydra ling etc | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
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Cantankerous
114 Posts
On January 03 2012 03:53 FindMuck wrote: Hey guys, Im currently low masters zerg, and im struggling in ZvP right now. Infact, with my understanding of the matchup, i dont know how i even got past gold ;_; I have 2 big PvZ questions that are really hindering my drone timings/play: How do i tell the difference between a 1 gate expand and a 3 gate? I know this seems obvious (look how many gates he has), but I need something specific such as timing of expo, etc. Like, if a toss goes 3 gate expand, when does he push out? When does he put down his extra gates/ tech? When does he drop the nexus? How many units/ what unit comp does he have? And the same questions for a 1 gate expand. When it comes to expansion timings, a nexus somewhere between 4.50ish and 5.20 is likely to be 1gate expo, while a 3-gate expo will land somewhere between 5.45 and 6.10ish. I don't have anything solid to give you about the push composition/timing though. | ||
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nicke10
Sweden114 Posts
On January 03 2012 08:18 DarKFoRcE wrote: in general its hard to be aggressive with zerg without being semi-allin'ish, you just have to accept that. True, I don't wanna switch races just because zerg playstyle doesn't fit me because it's the only race that feels good for me (injects, larvae, all units etc) | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
B) Let's say it's antiga shipyard and you spawn clockwise to the protoss. P can warp in units just outside your third from his main and kill the rocks. P can either walk up the ramp and use the narrow space to push your back with forcefields and eventually kill your 3rd or he can walk around and place 2 FFs on the ramp leading to your nat and trap your slow roaches there and do significant damage/kill your natural. Maybe it's just that I suck but I lose to that quite often if I don't blindly prepare for it. I thought that was one of the reasons why most tournaments have forced cross-position on those maps. C) Well, no shit (no disrespect intended, I hold you in high regard^^). The reason I asked you specifically was that you used to go for base races quite often and win, maybe you had some specific insights. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
C) Well stuff like building bases far from each other seems obvious, i guess you already know that? but yea, you just have to practise it to gain experience what to do in which situations, its too complex to write in a forum. | ||
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FindMuck
63 Posts
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rockstartower
United States18 Posts
I would also like to know the best response to when a protoss walls you in with three pylons and a cannon the other side. I appreciate any advice from proficient players. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On January 02 2012 21:45 Belial88 wrote: 2 base Zerg vs 2 base Protoss, Zerg will be behind if no losses or mistakes have occurred. Against 3 gate sentry expand, speedling pressure never works, and even if you force a cancel, it hurts your drone count so much that you end up behind. Against 1 gate expand, it's okay because you only make 14 lings, but if you overmake lings and they then add the 3 gates and eventually get expo, you are behind. Mhm, we clearly agree about this. I think maybe I haven't been clear about my 2 base lair play - I don't completely stop expanding after droning up my 2 bases. I just don't feel comfortable taking my third base before getting some lair tech to defend it (especially on maps where the third base can be attacked easily), since I've lost a lot of games to protoss allin pushes like 7 gate, 6 gate +1, 3 gate double stargate, blah blah blah. My process kind of goes like: roach speed and burrow to defend third expansion, and overlord speed to scout a lot in the midgame and play reactive to his tech structures and upgrades. Thank you. This is extremely useful. So against 1 gate expands, maybe I should make 1 larva inject of lings, force a cancel, then take my third right? Then drone up a bit, then defend with roach/ling and tech up while defending. Or do you think it's a choice of EITHER force a cancel if you opened gas, OR take third? Against 3 gate expand, I find that I generally die to 3 gate pressure with roach/ling defense if I start units as 'late' as 45 supply, so I guess you should take the third, then make units around 35-40? Thanks though. I guess it's somethign I'll figure out in play. npnp  That sounds like a good way to play. I generally make those early 6-10 lings against 1 gate nexus so I can delay it as much as possible. I mean sure if you want to make those lings and then save 300 minerals for a hatchery, you won't be able to macro constantly and spend all the money off a larva inject.... Just make a creep tumor at that point instead of an injection. Against 3 gate expand, idk... I don't play fast third on hatchery tech so I don't know the timings of it. I would imagine though that you could use speedlings to threaten backstabs to prevent the protoss from moving out on 3 gate sentry expand. Watch this, it's a 7 gate. By the way, anything more than 6 gate +1, or plain 7 gates (ie 8 gate, 7 gate+1, etc), just delays the attack or means macro is bad and not full production of units. The attack pushes out at 8:30 and hits about 8:45. http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65777 Here's the basic build order of fast third: Gasless, send 3 overlords to Toss base, and one of them MUST be by their natural's gas 30-34 Third, 1 Gas 6:50-7:00 Evo 7:00-7:30 Roach Warren, 2nd gas, Sac 2 overlords. If it's empty inside, it's stargate, double stargate if 4 fast gas. If no gas and later third gas, means usually macro play and usually stargate into 4 gate total or robo into 4 gate total (so adds 3 gates after star/robo). Can be DT. 4 fast gas means clearly double stargate, although possibly DT. If you see no gas ever, it means 6 gate+1 or 7 gate all-in. If you see 3-4 gas and gateways, usually means blink or gateway/robo aggression. 4 gas with gateways in main usually means some sort of tech, like stargate/gateway allin maybe, blink/dt, or shitton of sentries. 8:00 = 65 supply (if not, work on macro, a single overlord made too early or blocked fucks this up!) Make 100% units if no gas. Otherwise, drone up to 9:00 and get lair and then units. Don't get any upgrades because they never finish in time against gateway all-ins (they finish more than 3 minutes after planting evo, so 10:00 is later than you being dead at 9:00). Get them when safe, get gas asap. Thanks, this will help quite a lot. I do always play the fast third base style against FFE, especially on favourable maps for the third base, but I do struggle against 2 base allins. Like a 7 gate with no gas at natural, cut probes, and he takes his nexus??? This makes no sense. Why would you cut probes if you are expanding. If you don't cut probes, you can't push at 8:30 but instead push at 10:00, and a 10:00 7 gate is like an 8:00 4 gate, it's just a joke. You just overwhelm him with roach/ling, or you can go the other route and just outmacro the fuck out of him. If he doesn't produce 100% from his cut probe 7 gate, you will overrun him, or just macro wayyy over him because he cut so many probes and has no tech. Maybe a 6 gate attack with +1, but maybe he saves up 400 minerals to make a nexus while he moves out. The upgrade is useful in the long run, and he can go right back to making units after the 400 mineral investment. Just out of curiosity, since we are talking about ZvP, do you drone scout when going pool first or not? I never do, since it`s pretty easy to tell whether he`s going 1 gate or 3 gate expand depending on the first few units he makes. | ||
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Firekidt
United States28 Posts
But vs gateway first builds, I completely blank. I feel that I don't have enough money or larva to go Roach Ling ,and just end up dying against 6 gates and 2 base colossus all ins. I've tried Destiny-esque Ling-Infestor builds with IT pressure and double expanding during, etc, But I just don't have enough fungals against certain all-ins, and die to archon chargelot all ins. I've tried going Muta builds, but I cannot hold off all ins, and always die to Colossus Stalker deathballs. I've also tried playing simple Roach into Roach Infestor, but I just die to 2 base colossus all ins. Any advice? A lot of people say that FFE is harder to play against, and Protoss usually agree that FFE is better, but I don't understand how it is easier to play against. Edit: (I am high diamond-low Masters) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
The thread called "A look at Zerg openers" and "A second look at Zerg Openers". Just in the last few weeks, Nestea, Losira, and other korean zergs have started to go 14 hatch instead of 15 hatch (nestea didnt stop extractor tricking even with hatch first or 14 pool until just a few months ago). If you don't believe that thread, which has a lot of analysis, there are other posts that have been made about it too. How do i tell the difference between a 1 gate expand and a 3 gate? 1 gate expand = 4:30 to 5:00 expo 3 gate expand = 5:30 expo (maybe just 15 seconds late at most, but very regularly 5:30). When they place that low ground pylon is a big tell as well. Also, 3 gate expand puts down the 2 gateways at 4:30, so sac'ing an overlord, or running in a ling, at that time, can tell you a lot. I would say it's always a good idea to sac that 4:30 overlord to make sure it's 3 gate expo instead of 4 gate or 1 gate expo, and then you can make single larva inject of speedlings to force cancel on 1 gate. How do I know if a toss will all in me after a FFE? ALways keep an overlord by natural's gas, and 2 more overlords to sac at 7:00. no gas at natural = all-in at 8:30, mass gateway 4 gas taken quickly and you see no gateways when you sac overlord, ie base is empty = double stargate all-in. 3rd gas, only stalkers being made, gateways in main = quick blink all-in around 9:30. Arghh so I just transitioned from 14/14 to 15 H 15 pool vs terran and I ALWays get 2 bunkered rushed. I saw it this game pulled my drones by the svc is in a position where i cant even attack it wtf?! When learning how to hold bunker rushes, just send like 80% of your drones. It only 'hurts' to do this at high masters+, so don't worry about it, and besides, always better to be safe, and if you hold the 2 rax you come out ahead anyways. Even with 14/14, you can't get lings out in time to stop bunker rushes anyways (such as ramp blocks or contains, and if he 2 rax scv all-ins you lose because cant use spines). As soon as you see more than 1 scouting scv, send 4 drones down. Also, always have overlord by nat. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On January 03 2012 15:36 Firekidt wrote: How do you properly play against a 3 gate expand?... Darkforce/Everyone else, I also have this question. Obviously, going 2 base lair vs 2 base protoss is a losing proposition, and you have to do damage and hope that toss doesn't scout/react properly. However, I am not sure how to take a third before lair vs 1/3g expands. Do you take it, then make units? Or do you make units then take third? What is the timing of the third? Of the units? Or do you go 2 base macro hatch? I've never seen any replays/vods where pros went fast third vs 1/3g expands (and survived). But that 'should' be the macro answer right? I feel 1/3g expand is a much harder build to deal with as well. | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On January 03 2012 16:47 Belial88 wrote: Darkforce/Everyone else, I also have this question. Obviously, going 2 base lair vs 2 base protoss is a losing proposition, and you have to do damage and hope that toss doesn't scout/react properly. However, I am not sure how to take a third before lair vs 1/3g expands. Do you take it, then make units? Or do you make units then take third? What is the timing of the third? Of the units? Or do you go 2 base macro hatch? I've never seen any replays/vods where pros went fast third vs 1/3g expands (and survived). But that 'should' be the macro answer right? I feel 1/3g expand is a much harder build to deal with as well. I have no definite answer, but it seems that your assumption "2 base lair vs 2 base protoss can't work" is kind of wrong, in the sense, that if you are on an equal number of bases for a while, it doesn't mean you have equal saturation; and reversely, if you have a quick third, you probably won't be able to saturate it quickly. Remember Sheth piece of advice on how you should be always slightly ahead in base saturation, without necessarily being 1 hatch. If we assume that we go 14 gas 14 pool on maps where 3 gate expand is more likely (ST, xel naga for instance), one thing that has been working great for me is to make around 15 zerglings at the timing where he actually expands, to delay his expansion. it allows you to punish all 1 gate badly; and any 3 gate tech opening (with DTs or voids rays), cause he won't have enough sentries to defend it. against regular 3 gate, you can still put a bit of pressure, maybe catch him offguard and kill sentries; or more reasonably, showing that you are threatening and therefore that he cannot put pressure or you will straight counter him. you can use zerglings for map control and killing rocks. I also love expanding at the same time that i put that pressure. It is particularly lovely when there is a gold. In case there are rocks in the way, i usually make six early zerglings to get rid of them on time. to give my bo: 14 gas 14 pool 15 queen 17-20 zerglings (5 go kill rocks, 1 go scout). 21 expand 22 overlord 22 queen. 29 overlord. 29 zergling. 30 queen. 32 - 37 zerglings. go put pressure on expansion. 44 hatch (rocks should be killed by now). evolution chamber, roach warren, take second gas, put back 3 guys to gas. around 52 +1 upgrade (melee or range, as you wish). and then drone or mass units depending on your opponent. go to lair asap. This gives you roach warren @ 8:00 (which is more or less ok for early pushes) and lair started @ 8:00; three bases and three queens so that you can put pump mass lings just in case. if you scout indicators of him being passive in the near future (like a robo bay), you can drone like crazy. add a fourth hatch (macro hatch rather), take gas, etc. after a round of drones or two, mass units and deny forever his third with roaches and zerglings, while teching to your favorite tech, mutas or infestors. i hope it helps  | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On January 03 2012 16:47 Belial88 wrote: Darkforce/Everyone else, I also have this question. Obviously, going 2 base lair vs 2 base protoss is a losing proposition, and you have to do damage and hope that toss doesn't scout/react properly. However, I am not sure how to take a third before lair vs 1/3g expands. Do you take it, then make units? Or do you make units then take third? What is the timing of the third? Of the units? Or do you go 2 base macro hatch? I've never seen any replays/vods where pros went fast third vs 1/3g expands (and survived). But that 'should' be the macro answer right? I feel 1/3g expand is a much harder build to deal with as well. i think vs 3 gate expand its generally safer to get the fast third, as his tech is delayed, so DTs and voidrays will come later. also, because of the delayed tech you dont need to go to lair so quickly. in general i also feel less comfortable against 1 and 3 gate expand, because there are so many more variations, and its easier to lose to inferior players. but at the same time protoss is definitely a little behind if he just stays passive and goes for a third etc., so you can play a bit safer compared to vs FFE. i personally dont see something wrong with staying on 2 base till you have those saturated, then take a third while building some units, scouting him with an overseer and then deciding whether to drone more for when the third finishes or whether to build more units vs an incoming attack. you shouldnt forget that you will have an economic lead even on 2 vs 2 base temporarily. thats how i play it often lately and it seems good enough. on many maps you dont rly have another option anyway, like ST. | ||
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Splatterbug
Netherlands24 Posts
Regards, Splat | ||
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ChriseC
Germany440 Posts
drone up abit to 60-70drones and attack him as soon as maxed and rally stuff in or more like tech up and getting hive/broodlords? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If we assume that we go 14 gas 14 pool on maps where 3 gate expand is more likely (ST, xel naga for instance), one thing that has been working great for me is to make around 15 zerglings at the timing where he actually expands, to delay his expansion. it allows you to punish all 1 gate badly; and any 3 gate tech opening (with DTs or voids rays), cause he won't have enough sentries to defend it. against regular 3 gate, you can still put a bit of pressure, maybe catch him offguard and kill sentries; or more reasonably, showing that you are threatening and therefore that he cannot put pressure or you will straight counter him. you can use zerglings for map control and killing rocks. Actually, I've done some testing and made posts about it (where I thought the same way and got critisized) - if you make 2 rounds of lings like that to deny a 3 gate expo, you will actually end up behind Protoss. Cutting 10-15 drones to make a bunch of lings and only denying/cancelling a nexus for just 1-2 minutes will actually end up hurting you more than it hurts toss. Check out the worker counts and econ from there and onward and you'll see zerg actually ends up behind. Against 1 gate expo, it's worth it, but you have to be extremely conservative in the amount of lings you make. Just 1 inject's worth of lings, and delay the expo and force a late 3 gate expand, and then continue droning. The reason I say 2 base vs 2 base is bad, is that if you go 2 base lair, you HAVE to do damage or you end up behind toss. This is kind of a situation where it's a coinflip, and in regards to general solid macro play, I don't think it's a good idea because it relies on taking advantage of a toss who scouts/reacts improperly. 2 base toss, even if he has lower saturation, is not a good situation because obviously the whole dynamics of zerg vs protoss supply efficiency and drone vs unit mechanics. Also, toss won't really be that far behind in worker saturation with chrono boost, and remember that after 16 workers on minerals, each additional drone has a marginally diminishing returns. So when zerg surpasses toss in worker count, it's about the point where additional drones on the same mineral lines doesn't make as much difference. That's why fast third is good vs FFE - you should be even with Toss in workers, or slightly ahead, when 'shit goes down' and you may have to cut workers, but you'll have 3 mineral fields to work off of, and so you are way ahead of toss in income due to 16+16+16 mineral saturation vs 24+24. i personally dont see something wrong with staying on 2 base till you have those saturated, then take a third while building some units, scouting him with an overseer and then deciding whether to drone more for when the third finishes or whether to build more units vs an incoming attack. you shouldnt forget that you will have an economic lead even on 2 vs 2 base temporarily. Ah, so you recommend drone to about 50ish supply, make lots of units and just focus on saturating your 2 bases, and then take a much later third before lair. Thanks, I seemed to keep dying when I'd go 40ish supply third, then make units, because my econ would be so damn low since you really have to start making units when you only have about 35ish drones, and have to make a shitton of units. How exactly do you time that lair though? I'm assuming you get lair like right after your third, and then taking more than 2 gas based on what you scout? I guess vs FFE, you have to have roach speed up or such gateway pushes will really hurt? | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On January 03 2012 19:59 Belial88 wrote: Actually, I've done some testing and made posts about it (where I thought the same way and got critisized) - if you make 2 rounds of lings like that to deny a 3 gate expo, you will actually end up behind Protoss. Cutting 10-15 drones to make a bunch of lings and only denying/cancelling a nexus for just 1-2 minutes will actually end up hurting you more than it hurts toss. Check out the worker counts and econ from there and onward and you'll see zerg actually ends up behind. well obviously there are pros and cons... and making lings slows down your eco. But you actually get a lot for this round of units. as basically it allows you to take third (most of the time a gold, so that compensates for having less drones), and gives you a nice 3 hatchs/3 queens structure. Plus a bit a safety, pressure on the protoss, you deny his scouting, any harass, so he has to guess; it gives you nice scouting of his unit comp, you kill rocks to prepare later attacks, not to mention the fact that you get some bo wins here and there, etc. Then, if you are convinced that it's worthless, up to you | ||
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Amestir
Netherlands2126 Posts
Time to crush noobs  ! | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
I feel that the spore is good for zoning out the mediavac, and better if the opponent is careless and doesn't pay attention to the drop. Is it a wrong choice to do so? Is it better to maybe just replace the spore with one more spine, or is it worth it? | ||
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