EPTZvT mass thor counter? - Page 5
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Sirion
131 Posts
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obsid
United States389 Posts
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ziggurat
Canada847 Posts
I am a platinum player ranked about 1100. I am not sure exactly what I should have done. You can probably say that I should have initiated the battle from a different direction or whatnot but DAMN i got owned so bad. Maybe I should have just laid back and teched up to broodlords ... but I wanted to keep him from holding the high yield exp that he had just taken and I felt that if I could do that it would be easy to choke him off and win. And it seemed silly to sit at 200/200 and let him catch up. Here is the replay. You will notice that somehow around 14:45 I accidentally put about 18 drones into a group with my hydras and lings. I'm not sure how I did this, it was an accident. The key battle happens around 20:45. http://www.mediafire.com/?vc4o88fe6wd5kl9 any comments are appreciated. | ||
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Euriti
Denmark72 Posts
On September 20 2010 07:34 MforWW wrote: TLO style hellion/thor? just GG and save yourself the time. i've said ti before and i'll say it again, thors are too versatile and effective, particularly when they're being repaired (aka god-mode thors). TLO style hellion/thor (With blueflame) dies to an equal cost ling+bling+roach army in my experience. (Tested this with blueflame and +1 mech attack vs Speed roach+speed baneling+speed ling) | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
Oh and some minor things, your first queen's seemed a little late (after the pool was done) by like 20 sec, your creep coverage wasnt that good (want some of those artosis map pack games to see a good example of creep coverage), you need very very good creep if your going hydra. Think of hydras as a glass cannon, they hurt like hell, but if anyone attacks them they die very quickly. | ||
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
Roach and mass infestor (10+) Broodlord Roach Either way you need to expand and keep the terran contained. | ||
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Gman1216
United States97 Posts
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Zvendetta
United States321 Posts
First- the range difference. The BL's will start popping of shots before the thor can get in range. The AI forces the thor to auto target the broodlings, unless they are directed to focus fire. second- the BL's are heavy armored air units. They are the battlecruiser and the carrier of the zerg, so they're gonna survive more damage than the output of thors. BL stats: 225 hitpoints (wow) 1 natural armor. (plus any upgrades) Thor stats: Javelin missile 6 damage (+6 light, BL's are not light) 4 shots. Thors are good against mutas because of the light armor bonus, however BL's are not this case. Thor does only does 20 natural damage against BL. with 225 hitpoints, thats a lot of thors just to take out a few BL's. Each level of BL armor reduces thor damage by 4 points. It really comes down to positioning though, BL's are big enough that the splash of the javelin won't affect them too much, but don't get lazy with control. Lings don't normally do strong against terran mech because tanks and hellions normally back up the thors, nullifying them completely. Tanks/hellions can't attack air, so plus to BL. One bad thing is that 2 vikings can destroy an entire armada of BL's if you're not careful. zerg might morph all their corrupters into BL's so thats why there so vulnerable to flying AA. Edit: Just a note, if you want BL's, then don't start off building an ultra den. You're resources need to be allocated perfectly, and honestly with enough BLs you don't need ultras | ||
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oddeye
Canada716 Posts
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
Banelings: NO, just NO. Mutalisk magic box FTW!: NO, this has been discussed to death afair in other topics, after 6 + Thors the magix box means nothing and half of your mutas will die before starting to attack. Also harrassings turns pretty much impossible or waaay to risky. Infestors: d00ds just make 12 infestor an NP all the Thors ez lolols. Sure could work maybe if you play AGAINST A COMPUTER. If you guys want to give a solution at least realize that you are playing against an opponent that can think, no decent player will go PURE Thor, the points is to defend against a Thor heavy army because any decent player will add 2 - 3 tanks and extra mins will go on hellions simply because if they make ONLY Thors by the moment they push out you should already have like HALF OF THE MAP. (Not that pure Thor is weak on a fight tough, they are damn gundams) Best way for me at least is to just mass roachling, im not too fond of NP but having 3-4 infestors with NP is also good if you manage to not get them killed and best way to do that is to overrun the T ball from all the sides. Why not pure lings or pure Roaches? Because theyll DIE easily, if you make pure lings not all will be able to hit at a time not to mention if you play against a terran who hasnt suffered from a lobotomy will add blueflame hellions to sink the extra minerals. (Similar as to what Terran did with Vultures when going mech in BW). Also trying to burrow move the roaches will help a lot. Most important advice i can give against mass Thor. NEVER GET BEHIND ON UPGRADES. I learned this the hard way playing against a TL member. Always check for moving armories and put 2 evos asap because you dont want your lings to do 1 dps. Also add a few lings in case they pull svcs. TLDR: Theres no hard counter, just mass mass mass and try to get the best surround in the world. | ||
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
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obsid
United States389 Posts
I agree on the infesters. I think magic boxed mutas do work to a point, magic boxed mutas are good harrasing, and will make sure the terran doesnt move out for a long time. They do become very risky when the thor number gets very high (1 mistake and your whole army dies in 1 shot), or marines start getting added. Still they do what they are meant to do, give you map control, prevent drops, and pick off a few structures. Clearly not a core of a 200/200 army vr thors though. Roaches + speedlings can work, but you MUST have a LOT more resources then he has to make it work (usualy its about 2 to 1 ratio, in that roaches/speedlings need to be twice the resource value of the thors). If you got 4 bases to his 2 though, you can go this route, upgrades are critical as your planning on a truly massive amount of units. There are problems with this, first is that in choke points, your army will be worse then his there (well then dont fight in choke points is easy to say, but not always easy to do, such as on scrap station where the center path through the rocks is a choke point all the way to your base). The second is this tends to fail a lot near the 200/200 limit though, as at that point his army WILL be more powerful then yours (roaches use up food so fast), but if you transition out till broodlords or ultra you can do it. Also auto-repair scvs can ruin your day very easly. Once the roach range increese is in place, this is likely to be a better route, for now its only even i would say. Speedling/Roach/Banelings work are an alterative to roaches and speedlings. Instead of getting a ton of roahces, just get a lot more lings, and then slowly convert them to banelings (untill he pushes out then convert a lot of them). Again you should focus on an end game with ultra/brood lord though. This route tends to "rush" for the broodlord/ultra a lot faster, as less gas is spent early on roaches. And banelings and ling counter attacks are units to stop timing attacks (untill the broodlord/ultra is out). This path focuses A LOT more on the melee upgrades then the route with roaches, which can make ultra/broodlord be stronger sooner. Also this is much better able to fight in a choke point, as banelings EXCEL in small areas where the units must be clumped. And the splash will kill marines or hellions or auto-repair scvs that happen to be near the thors, making it easier for your ling/roaches to finsih the job. Also baneling drops work wonders, as each baneling does full splash damage (as they are droped into the middle of clumps), that alone can double the damage of your banelings. Both are options imo, before you dismiss one of them blindly how about you post a reason? | ||
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Buffy
Sweden665 Posts
On October 10 2010 09:59 skindzer wrote: TLDR: Theres no hard counter, just mass mass mass and try to get the best surround in the world. Sometimes, even the best surround in the world has failed me vs this sadly enough. Though I have to agree with you on this, you cannot really go infestors or any other cute stuff, mass the hell out of your larvas, and upgrade. And as the quote says. Try (even pray) that you get the best surround in the world. | ||
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GxZ
United States375 Posts
(You shouldn't need the bonus energy upgrade) Start massing roaches and make sure you are getting your 2-2 roaches as fast as possible. You should get around 8infestors pretty fast so you can start getting energy for NP/FG. Don't forget to make overlords and keep producing roaches I've started adding some speedlings against this build and really helps if they dont have enough helions to kill them quickly. When the fight comes start NP'ing all the thors then attack the ones that you NP'd and should be GG. Also depending on the game and your opponent, getting a fourth is necessary if your opponent is getting a 3rd. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On October 10 2010 10:03 Piousflea wrote: If a Terran gets 10+ thors, his army is so immobile you should be able to harass him to death. Yeah, and terran will just walk over all of your bases granted maps are very small. Me and my buddy (both zergs) are trying to figure out how to counter it. Even though we are both zergs the one who plays terran wins 8 out of 10 matches  | ||
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HeyJude
United States157 Posts
Not to mention thors are 1) slow, as has been mentioned and 2) have terrible pathing through chokes. Just gotta pick the right spot for the fight. | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
so annoying that zerg has to hard counter everything since all its shit gets hard countered. mass thor = brood lords. may's well spend any extra larva /minerals you have on zerglings and roaches after that. I've lost to thor pushes like, virtually every ZvT that i lose. | ||
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Pyrthas
United States3196 Posts
1) Broodlords. 2) Don't let the t get that far (that is, treat it like zvp in bw, except thors are easier to mass than archons and reavers and shuttles). And if you go for option 1, then you still can't let the t get to mass thors with viking backup. (But that really is more like not letting a p get a critical mass of archons and reavers.) That about right? | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On October 10 2010 12:33 HeyJude wrote: Why wouldn't an equal supply army of lings/roaches/hydras/mutas win? Thors don't hard-counter any of those units and roaches are probably Z's best version of a hard-counter to thors. The roaches/lings can soak the dmg while your hydras and mutas finish the job... Not to mention thors are 1) slow, as has been mentioned and 2) have terrible pathing through chokes. Just gotta pick the right spot for the fight. No, equal supply of lings/roaches/hydras/mutas don't win thor heavy army by any means or any amount of micro. You are just plain wrong. | ||
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Adeeler
United Kingdom764 Posts
Even letting an expansion be sacked to give yourself a better engagement seems better then engaging and losing badly to attempt to save an expo(usually my 3rd/gold). Then with the infestors fungals and things to give speedblings a chance to splash the bio asap then surround with ling and maybe bling the thor to death just to keep the thor numbers low as much as possible and try to counter terrans 3rd or bling kill any PF expo or just kill the scvs at the least. But its the remaining thors that I usually have a problem with especially if terran is in the process of switching to massing thors. Then I don't know what force to remake to finish some 5-9 thors with. If I go roach he will bring in marauders an if he sits in tight corners or against walls its hard to get the dmg against them. Next patch if roachs do indeed get +1 to range then they might be more efficent then atm so will hope its good but waiting that long with this problem seems to be a problem. Edit: I remember a game I played against Fenix way way back in beta and instead of letting the terran sit back I stopped his early drop play on LT and went for speed & drop and just took the fight into his base asap and keep reinforcing with ling roach focusing the thors to keep the numbers down while the numbers where low. This was way way back but I think the principal might still work if you sense mass thors. But if he gets a few marauder I dunno exactly what to do. I think its only gonna be effective versus someone FE'ing in that tight time period where not enough bio is out to overpower you. | ||
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