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On October 09 2010 15:46 vnlegend wrote:
I don't see where there is a problem.
Corruptors + broodlords counter everything T and P in the game. Zergs can easily turn the tide of any battle by coming out with broodlords. The Thors aren't gonna reach the broodlords because broodlings are in the way, and will keep coming indefinitely. They are also not light units.
Roaches/lings also do extremely well vs mech.
Roach/ling will not beat thor/hellion if they are paying attention and notice burrowed units shadow and scan before roach gets under there army(certainly won't beat them without burrowing under). Broodlords can't be up before a couple push windows.
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On October 09 2010 16:06 Wuped wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 15:46 vnlegend wrote:
I don't see where there is a problem.
Corruptors + broodlords counter everything T and P in the game. Zergs can easily turn the tide of any battle by coming out with broodlords. The Thors aren't gonna reach the broodlords because broodlings are in the way, and will keep coming indefinitely. They are also not light units.
Roaches/lings also do extremely well vs mech. Roach/ling will not beat thor/hellion if they are paying attention and notice burrowed units shadow and scan before roach gets under there army(certainly won't beat them without burrowing under). Broodlords can't be up before a couple push windows.
roach-ling won't, roach-ling-baneling will.
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I love how people quickly dismissed infestors, which completely dominate thors no matter what everyone else has said.
FG has 9 range and 2 splash.
NP also has 9 range.
10 thors is 3000/2000
thats 13 infestors
FG and NP is a very nasty combination...
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On October 09 2010 17:19 kawazu wrote:
I love how people quickly dismissed infestors, which completely dominate thors no matter what everyone else has said.
FG has 9 range and 2 splash.
NP also has 9 range.
10 thors is 3000/2000
thats 13 infestors
FG and NP is a very nasty combination...
10 Thors will actually beat 13 infestors ._.
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if it is a very passive early expand mass thors build, just get mass roach/ling and doomdrop/nydus the back of his main. He will have little to no defense because he is too slow.
Only thing that really works.
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There is no counter. Just watch the sjow vs darkforce games. Sjow played really bad and still won 4-0..
He played the same strat every game and he always does vs zerg he still doesnt manage to not get supply blocked at least 2-3 times every game :p
Funny also how ppl think mutas are good .. They just dont die instantly but they are not good or even close to a cost efficient counter to mass thors ...
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mass broodlord, you are right there is no 'set' counter. i was thinking about this and was going to make a thread but i just went and played ladder.
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On October 09 2010 17:19 kawazu wrote:
I love how people quickly dismissed infestors, which completely dominate thors no matter what everyone else has said.
FG has 9 range and 2 splash.
NP also has 9 range.
10 thors is 3000/2000
thats 13 infestors
FG and NP is a very nasty combination...
Infestor priority is too high. Will get destroyed before you're in range. Don't know why anyone would waste fungals on thors lol. However, 13 infestors with full energy making mass infested terran may have a chance.
And for the OP.. Broodlords are good for support. I've lost a lot of games where I went broodlords though. They are too expensive, too hard to tech to, too slow and die too easily. My suggestion, mass roach and trade armies before he hits critical mass.
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On October 09 2010 17:46 TheDna wrote:
There is no counter. Just watch the sjow vs darkforce games. Sjow played really bad and still won 4-0..
He played the same strat every game and he always does vs zerg he still doesnt manage to not get supply blocked at least 2-3 times every game :p
Funny also how ppl think mutas are good .. They just dont die instantly but they are not good or even close to a cost efficient counter to mass thors ...
Well I'm sorry but Darkforce played awfully: Poor unit composition with too many banelings too few speedlings, terrible macro, no infestors, terrible macro, expanded way too slowly, terrible macro, and lack of upgrades.
(first game)
In the second game his army composition was completely wrong and he again had awwwful macro(needs to be at 5 bases but is at 3....)
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surely fruitdealer taught us that ultralisks work very well against a lot of thors?
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surely fruitdealer taught us that ultralisks work very well against a lot of thors?
Well that was before the ultralisk "bug" got "fixed"..
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i found a mix of zerglings/roach/hydra to be really effective
zerglings/roaches mainly to tank dmg for the hydra to deal the dmg
but don't know if this works out with 2-digits thor numbers
if your opponent uses scv get a fungal on them, it might not kill them but prevent from any thor repair (because they are stuck repairing each other)
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I see many posts, just build this bla bla. Im looking for more of an viable counter at top Diamond and not gold platinum thx. any light units wont work vs Blueflame helions, Thors rape roaches hydras and mutas.
Ultralisk are not really viable also, cause the timing push with Thor / Helion will come before you get Ultras at any good numbers. and the terran would be in big lead in upgrades.
Infestors could work if in a choke with fungal+neural, but the time it last is so bad now.
But atm im just in the dark. damn terrans! :>
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just went to the testing area.
You need 22 banelings for a thor (20 if you have melee weapon +1 and he hasn't +2 armor)
i managed to blow up 5+ thors in a choke with 22 banelings
drop might work as well in a battle since ovies don't have much of a priority (if not focus-fired on them)
but banelings running into thors - wasn't as effective (mainly because i didnt have enough apm to manage my 4 groups of banelings to blow up in the right thor :/ )
if you have problems with hellions you might want to fungal growth them (maybe even multiple times), at least that helped me
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It takes a fair amount of bases to be able to mass out so many thors like that...
shouldnt you really be doing harrasses with mutas and stop him from expanding so much by trading armies with him?
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On September 20 2010 05:15 hadoken5 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Now I know people always say don't let it get there and "lings make thors waster their shots", but the truth is there will be instances in which you will face mass thors and I'm talkin about 10+ Thors with a few hellions. Ultralisks are terrible at this because they die before they even get to the Thor (which is why I don't understand the nerf) and lings can't get the surround fast enough and also die rather quickly to hellions and are 1 shotted my thors.
So would Brood Lords be your only option? And how would they fare? From my understanding Thors are quite good against them as well.
EDIT: These are my out comes from the unit tester:
The amount of thors used in each situation was 20(120 supply) and the zerg army consisted of one unit type that was massed untill one of the thors requirements was met(mineral cost, gas cost, or supply cost) I'm not giving the exact amount but just a general outcome
Lings are terrible against mass thors unless they are fully upgraded and the thors are not.
Roaches take out just over half of the thors.
Banelings do about as well as roaches do, but I think that their damage isn't as reliable as the Thors weren't spread out in this situation.
Hydralisks terrible even with concave and on creep
Mutalisks, magic box is helpful but it was never meant to be a cost effective solution; they didn't do so well(took out less then half of the thors)
Ultralisks, they did well when it was in a very open area, but once I got into a small choke, they took out about one quarter of the thors.
Brood Lords, originally they lost against the thors, taking out about half of the thors. However the second time around I split up the Brood Lords into to groups like so:
BBBBBB
TTTTTT
BBBBBB
and then just attack moved with both of them and then they took out the Thors with about only about 5 losses (16 vs 20).
I tried magic boxing but it didn't turn out so well, the Brood Lords are too slow.
Infestors with roaches was also bad, as 12 seconds per Thor is just not enough.
I'm sure I'm repeating shit that other people have already said, but I believe the answer is twofold:
1) Post a replay.
2) Without a replay, all I can say is that you shouldn't let terran get a high thor count. You need to apply pressure earlier and force him to spend money on other things, because if he is only making hellions/thors there will be periods of extreme vulnerability.
If I was forced to try to fight a pure hellion/thor army head on, I would attempt to use bling drops or burrowed blings to kill off hellions and flank with lings to kill thors. I wouldn't count on that working though.
If you're letting T build a huge army, that probably means you're being too passive. If you're going to be so passive you need to have a huge economy so that it doesn't matter that his units are more efficient than yours. Otherwise you need to be very aggressive and keep his thor count low.
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The best thing I've found for this composition is to learn to use the search feature on the TL.net forums. Many many many many threads on this topic already.
Anyway, best answer for me has to just simply out macro him and attack with roach/ling/muta, or roach/ling/bling/infestor until Ultras pop out. Don't attack him, but macro your heart out, get upgrades etc, until he pushes out and engage him in open field. DO NOT ENGAGE RIGHT OUTSIDE YOUR BASE. If you attack him here (often there is a choke making it hard anyway) and lose then you are be really really hurting. If you kill him in open field AWAY from your base you can get much better positioning, do more damage, and even if you don't kill everything, often he will be so dinged up that he will pull back.
Most important thing, however, is to expand and drone like crazy the minute you learn he is turtling to mass thor/hellion. Keep several spotters to know when he is moving out. Keep tabs on the size of his army and macro hard. You want numbers and a strong economy to beat this composition, imo. It's sounds lame, but it's actually not too hard to do since Thors cost so much, take a long time to build, and are so immobile. He'll likely be on 2-base to your 4-5 if you do things well.
Something that helps you drone of and saturate your 3rd and 4th bases quickly is to get an extra hatch at your natural before you expand again. Having 3-queen/3-hatch before your 3rd base will give you tons of larvae and will allow you to saturate expos really fast, as well as allow you do build/rebuild an army really fast when you see him pushing out.
This comp is very very strong and something I have been trying to improve against. These are the best solutions I have found to date.
SpaceYeti.391 - 88th world percentile - Diamond
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When fighting mass thor/hellion (no tanks), get banelings. An even gas count of banelings to clumped thors means banelings win. If they arnt clumped, lings do well, with banelings to kill hellions. Any thors that live are going to be very weak and easly cleaned up with by lings.
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o.O
I tend to believe you just need a whole bunch of everything. Lately I've been aiming for an Ultra/Hydra/Infestor/Baneling unit comp at the end game, and I feel like it does ok against mass thor. I'll lose the first fight, but reinforcements can usually clean up the leftovers.
I know everyone says Neural Parasite is garbage, and I do tend to agree, but in these mass Thor scenarios, if you've got 4-6 infestors mixed in to your comp already, throwing some NPs really can make a big difference. Especially if you can keep your infestors behind the rest of your ball while the ultras soak damage and the hydras dish it out.
On October 10 2010 01:44 obsid wrote:
When fighting mass thor/hellion (no tanks), get banelings. An even gas count of banelings to clumped thors means banelings win. If they arnt clumped, lings do well, with banelings to kill hellions. Any thors that live are going to be very weak and easly cleaned up with by lings.
This sounds just aweful...
For the record: It takes 22 banes to kill 1 thor at equal upgrades.
Thor: 300/200
22 Banes: 1650/550
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Try banelings out in the unit tester some time, then in a real game. Its not as bad as it sounds. What matters is how many thors you can hit per baneling (or how clumped they are). If you can hit at least 3 thors per baneling, its worth it. If he spreads hits thors out, the banelings can kill any marines/hellions around, while your lings kill the spread out thors. (its only clumped thors that kill lings, if you can get a good lings all the way aroudn a thor, lings do very well vr them.
Its not always 22 banelings at even upgrades, as banelings get +2 per attack, and thors get +1 armor per armor. Its actualy 19 banelings at +3 attack banelings vr +3 armor thors (and as low as 16 banelings at +3 attack vr +0 defense thors).
Given +2 attack vr +2 defense (which is usualy when the 2 base timing attack hits with a lot of thors), then its 20 banelings to kill a thor, thats 1000/500 resources, so if you can hit at least 3 thors per baneling thats 900/600 resources you just killed. Compared to mutas, or other ways of fighting thors, thats very effective, and if you can get more thors hit per baneling, thats just gravy on top (I have hit at most 7 thors if your in the middle of a pack).
Send in like 6-10 lings, with all your banelings (the lings with speed will naturaly go out in front and tank some shots so the banelings get in range), make sure to MOVE your banelings to the biggest group of thors you can see (not attack move), once you are sorounding them in good position then attack move, and all your banelings go boom at the same time. Follow up with some lings to clean up any mostly dead thors left.
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EPT
