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Now I know people always say don't let it get there and "lings make thors waster their shots", but the truth is there will be instances in which you will face mass thors and I'm talkin about 10+ Thors with a few hellions. Ultralisks are terrible at this because they die before they even get to the Thor (which is why I don't understand the nerf) and lings can't get the surround fast enough and also die rather quickly to hellions and are 1 shotted my thors.
So would Brood Lords be your only option? And how would they fare? From my understanding Thors are quite good against them as well.
EDIT: These are my out comes from the unit tester:
The amount of thors used in each situation was 20(120 supply) and the zerg army consisted of one unit type that was massed untill one of the thors requirements was met(mineral cost, gas cost, or supply cost) I'm not giving the exact amount but just a general outcome
Lings are terrible against mass thors unless they are fully upgraded and the thors are not.
Roaches take out just over half of the thors.
Banelings do about as well as roaches do, but I think that their damage isn't as reliable as the Thors weren't spread out in this situation.
Hydralisks terrible even with concave and on creep
Mutalisks, magic box is helpful but it was never meant to be a cost effective solution; they didn't do so well(took out less then half of the thors)
Ultralisks, they did well when it was in a very open area, but once I got into a small choke, they took out about one quarter of the thors.
Brood Lords, originally they lost against the thors, taking out about half of the thors. However the second time around I split up the Brood Lords into to groups like so:
BBBBBB
TTTTTT
BBBBBB
and then just attack moved with both of them and then they took out the Thors with about only about 5 losses (16 vs 20).
I tried magic boxing but it didn't turn out so well, the Brood Lords are too slow.
Infestors with roaches was also bad, as 12 seconds per Thor is just not enough.
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On September 20 2010 05:15 hadoken5 wrote:
Now I know people always say don't let it get there and "lings make thors waster their shots", but the truth is there will be instances in which you will face mass thors and I'm talkin about 10+ Thors with a few hellions. Ultralisks are terrible at this because they die before they even get to the Thor (which is why I don't understand the nerf) and lings can't get the surround fast enough and also die rather quickly to hellions and are 1 shotted my thors.
So would Brood Lords be your only option? And how would they fare? From my understanding Thors are quite good against them as well.
Brood lords, microed mutas, or possibly roaches. The only time I've seen mass Thor, it's kinda steamrolled.
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Here, I would consider Hydralisk if there's no tanks, but you cannot count that option out.
I'd say the best way to counter this depends on positioning. If he's going mass thors, that means you've been doing 2 things : mutas harass or no aggression at all (extremely passive zerg play, only macro).
Going lings + mutas, lings to counter thors and take the hellions with mutas when they are out of position.
Or going lings + infestors (and maybe + roach /hydra/bling/anything). Infestors are good for two things : fungal hellions, or neural thors.
I guess that's the best options right now, but in fact, it all comes to positioning your lings / deal with the hellions.
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On September 20 2010 05:20 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 05:15 hadoken5 wrote:
Now I know people always say don't let it get there and "lings make thors waster their shots", but the truth is there will be instances in which you will face mass thors and I'm talkin about 10+ Thors with a few hellions. Ultralisks are terrible at this because they die before they even get to the Thor (which is why I don't understand the nerf) and lings can't get the surround fast enough and also die rather quickly to hellions and are 1 shotted my thors.
So would Brood Lords be your only option? And how would they fare? From my understanding Thors are quite good against them as well. Brood lords, microed mutas, or possibly roaches. The only time I've seen mass Thor, it's kinda steamrolled.
Alright I'll test these all out in the unit tester. Oh and aren't you qxc's biggest fan? 
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thors suck vs broodlords. they are armored and thors do less than great dmg to armored units. also after you get 8-10 lords the thors will not even be able to advance.
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On September 20 2010 05:35 hadoken5 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 05:20 MythicalMage wrote:On September 20 2010 05:15 hadoken5 wrote:
Now I know people always say don't let it get there and "lings make thors waster their shots", but the truth is there will be instances in which you will face mass thors and I'm talkin about 10+ Thors with a few hellions. Ultralisks are terrible at this because they die before they even get to the Thor (which is why I don't understand the nerf) and lings can't get the surround fast enough and also die rather quickly to hellions and are 1 shotted my thors.
So would Brood Lords be your only option? And how would they fare? From my understanding Thors are quite good against them as well. Brood lords, microed mutas, or possibly roaches. The only time I've seen mass Thor, it's kinda steamrolled. Alright I'll test these all out in the unit tester. Oh and aren't you qxc's biggest fan?
Perhaps. XDDD.
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Thors quite good against brood lords? Not in my experience. Thors have a 6 x 4 air attack, range 10 on a 3 sec cool down. Brood lords have 225 hp and base 1 armor. Corruptors and BLs are air tanks, so naturally you'll want + air carapace if you're building them.
If you're matching him in resources with brood lords, just a little bit of positioning should let you win handily. If he focuses your bls, run away and re engage with more favorable positioning. If he's not microing and attacking your broodlings, then obviously you will quickly win.
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I'm confused why no one mentions infestors . If you mix 4 or 5 infestors in your muta/ling army (if he can go mass Thor, you can go muta/ling with infestor support, if not, you've already lost the game somewhere else) and use Neural Parasite to control a few of his Thors to wreck havoc while your army finishes the rest.
This seems to be the most viable option if you ask me, but perhaps it's not doable since it hasn't been mentioned before, dunno, don't play zerg, but I rarely see it used ingame as well.
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I've encountered it a few times in 4v4s and ultra ling is useless against them. Well positioned broodlords might be the best choice, and maybe burrowed roaches so you can get in position.
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On September 20 2010 05:40 Misca wrote:I'm confused why no one mentions infestors . If you mix 4 or 5 infestors in your muta/ling army (if he can go mass Thor, you can go muta/ling with infestor support, if not, you've already lost the game somewhere else) and use Neural Parasite to control a few of his Thors to wreck havoc while your army finishes the rest. This seems to be the most viable option if you ask me, but perhaps it's not doable since it hasn't been mentioned before, dunno, don't play zerg, but I rarely see it used ingame as well.
NP infestors is usually quite easy to take down, but it might be worth getting a few anyway.
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On September 20 2010 05:40 Misca wrote:I'm confused why no one mentions infestors . If you mix 4 or 5 infestors in your muta/ling army (if he can go mass Thor, you can go muta/ling with infestor support, if not, you've already lost the game somewhere else) and use Neural Parasite to control a few of his Thors to wreck havoc while your army finishes the rest. This seems to be the most viable option if you ask me, but perhaps it's not doable since it hasn't been mentioned before, dunno, don't play zerg, but I rarely see it used ingame as well.
Thors take awhile to kill so I think NP will be finished long before it's over. Could be wrong, maybe it helps swing the tide.
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On September 20 2010 05:40 Misca wrote:I'm confused why no one mentions infestors . If you mix 4 or 5 infestors in your muta/ling army (if he can go mass Thor, you can go muta/ling with infestor support, if not, you've already lost the game somewhere else) and use Neural Parasite to control a few of his Thors to wreck havoc while your army finishes the rest. This seems to be the most viable option if you ask me, but perhaps it's not doable since it hasn't been mentioned before, dunno, don't play zerg, but I rarely see it used ingame as well.
It's not really viable. I find the gas is more useful in getting more broodlords.
After thor numbers reach double digit, ultraling stop being viable because they'll die before they even reach the thors. Roaches are completely useless vs thors as even in a 1 thor vs 5 roach situation, it's barely cost effective. Once the numbers increase it's only going to be more favorable to the side with a longer range.
The only cost effective counter are broodlords, but you'll be vulnerable to a push before your greater spire is finished, which any terran will scan and do.
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Baa?21242 Posts
Mass Roach, if you have it to spare burrow movement, unburrow in the middle of Thors so they don't die before they're even in range.
Save gas for Broodlords.
Nothing beats mass Thors cost for cost except Broodlords which is retarded ~___~
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Against only Thors, Ultras should do fine, maybe you had just a too small army... But if lots of Tanks are in the mix, Broodlords are the only way to go...
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On September 20 2010 05:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Mass Roach, if you have it to spare burrow movement, unburrow in the middle of Thors so they don't die before they're even in range.
Save gas for Broodlords.
Nothing beats mass Thors cost for cost except Broodlords which is retarded ~___~
In my test they did even worse when they popped beneat the Thors.
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Are brood lords really a better solution than ultralisks? Seems like in my games, I have 1 chance to push and win with broodlords. After that, he'll have 10 vikings just sniping away broodlords, or he has the option to simply not engage your extremely slow force.
I just lost to mass thor, and well, they just don't die that fast.
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Ultralisk are bad yea. I mean if he has 5 thors and you have +10 ultras then yea of course but even then only if positioning is good. But broods by far a better option.
It's a problem if he makes push with blue hellions + thors before you get to broods because you have all the gas saved up.
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Muta is a good choice, but as long as you control them properly. Use the magic box to ensure that the mutas don't clump up. If they do, splash damage will end them quickly.
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TLO style hellion/thor? just GG and save yourself the time.
i've said ti before and i'll say it again, thors are too versatile and effective, particularly when they're being repaired (aka god-mode thors).
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I've never seen a zvt where the terran has more than 10 thors. Personally I'd never let it get to that point, and I don't think any other decent zerg player would. Hell, I don't even think a terran player would sit in his base until he got over 10 thors. If he hasn't pushed out with 5 or 6 and the hellions/marines, then there are some serious shenanigans going on.
Also, nobody would make just lings or just mutas. The combination of slings/blings/mutas works wonderfully as long as there are no tanks around. I'd gladly trade armies in that respect because I know that I'd have him beat at 1 base compared to my 3.
Do you have a replay of a zvt where the terran turtles up to over 10 thors? I'd like to see it happen without the T dying beforehand.
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On September 20 2010 07:29 Servius_Fulvius wrote:
Muta is a good choice, but as long as you control them properly. Use the magic box to ensure that the mutas don't clump up. If they do, splash damage will end them quickly.
I find muta are quite good against naked thors but dam is it risky. One mistake from you basically ends the game since 1 clump when thor mass is beyond 4/5 means half the muta are gone. I guess that's fine for pros but man there must be a better less risky way to play vs thors.
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On September 20 2010 07:37 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 07:29 Servius_Fulvius wrote:
Muta is a good choice, but as long as you control them properly. Use the magic box to ensure that the mutas don't clump up. If they do, splash damage will end them quickly. I find muta are quite good against naked thors but dam is it risky. One mistake from you basically ends the game since 1 clump when thor mass is beyond 4/5 means half the muta are gone. I guess that's fine for pros but man there must be a better less risky way to play vs thors.
It's not as risky when you use the magic box. Hotkey all the mutas and fly them to a spot. They will clump, but when the arrive at the spot let them sit and unclump. This will create a square of mutas evenly spaced out called the magic box. Right click over the group of thors. When directly overhead, press H for hold position. The mutas will keep formation thus minimizing the splash from Thors.
However, if you attack-move the mutas will clump up and get stomped.
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On September 20 2010 07:44 Servius_Fulvius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 07:37 Numy wrote:On September 20 2010 07:29 Servius_Fulvius wrote:
Muta is a good choice, but as long as you control them properly. Use the magic box to ensure that the mutas don't clump up. If they do, splash damage will end them quickly. I find muta are quite good against naked thors but dam is it risky. One mistake from you basically ends the game since 1 clump when thor mass is beyond 4/5 means half the muta are gone. I guess that's fine for pros but man there must be a better less risky way to play vs thors. It's not as risky when you use the magic box. Hotkey all the mutas and fly them to a spot. They will clump, but when the arrive at the spot let them sit and unclump. This will create a square of mutas evenly spaced out called the magic box. Right click over the group of thors. When directly overhead, press H for hold position. The mutas will keep formation thus minimizing the splash from Thors. However, if you attack-move the mutas will clump up and get stomped.
When thors get to double digit numbers mutas stop being an effective counter.
If he has 12 thors, no amount of magic box is gonna make 40 mutas kill that.
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Yeah, I struggle pretty hard with any kind of thor + support as well... especially if SCVs are in the mix.
Fungal growth spam seems somewhat effective at getting rid of the helions but since they're so cheap and fast, the darn things seem to multiply like rabbits... kinda like marines
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10 thors is so expensive... why let him get 10 thors? If he's gotten 10 thors it means you're both on like 4+ bases (either that or you're not aggressive enough). When he pushes with 10 thors and he has 4 bases (you should have 6+), muta/ling 2 expansions... swing around and engage with him vastly superior numbers.
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the easiest way to kill mass thors + hellion is either mass infestors or broodlords.
broodlords: heavy untis and if u upgrade their armor, -4 dmg each upgrade
infestors: infestors cost 100m 150g, thors 300m 200g, make yur infestors neutral parasite all the thors and u wont lose any units. you'll also have infestors which are always useful to have.
if u scout, it shouldn't be hard to get either of the units.
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On September 20 2010 05:15 hadoken5 wrote:
Now I know people always say don't let it get there and "lings make thors waster their shots", but the truth is there will be instances in which you will face mass thors and I'm talkin about 10+ Thors with a few hellions. Ultralisks are terrible at this because they die before they even get to the Thor (which is why I don't understand the nerf) and lings can't get the surround fast enough and also die rather quickly to hellions and are 1 shotted my thors.
So would Brood Lords be your only option? And how would they fare? From my understanding Thors are quite good against them as well.
EDIT: These are my out comes from the unit tester:
The amount of thors used in each situation was 20(120 supply) and the zerg army consisted of one unit type that was massed untill one of the thors requirements was met(mineral cost, gas cost, or supply cost) I'm not giving the exact amount but just a general outcome
Lings are terrible against mass thors unless they are fully upgraded and the thors are not.
Roaches take out just over half of the thors.
Banelings do about as well as roaches do, but I think that their damage isn't as reliable as the Thors weren't spread out in this situation.
Hydralisks terrible even with concave and on creep
Mutalisks, magic box is helpful but it was never meant to be a cost effective solution; they didn't do so well(took out less then half of the thors)
Ultralisks, they did well when it was in a very open area, but once I got into a small choke, they took out about one quarter of the thors.
Brood Lords, originally they lost against the thors, taking out about half of the thors. However the second time around I split up the Brood Lords into to groups like so:
BBBBBB
TTTTTT
BBBBBB
and then just attack moved with both of them and then they took out the Thors with about only about 5 losses (16 vs 20).
I tried magic boxing but it didn't turn out so well, the Brood Lords are too slow.
Infestors with roaches was also bad, as 12 seconds per Thor is just not enough.
dont magic box BL's abuse cliffs and the map in general. tight chokes and such. brood lords are the way to go imo
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Baa?21242 Posts
On September 20 2010 06:04 hadoken5 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 05:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Mass Roach, if you have it to spare burrow movement, unburrow in the middle of Thors so they don't die before they're even in range.
Save gas for Broodlords.
Nothing beats mass Thors cost for cost except Broodlords which is retarded ~___~ In my test they did even worse when they popped beneat the Thors.
Really? Tat seems weird, whenever I play it seems burrowed Roaches can get in much more damage. Any reason why they'd do worse?
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Constant roach harass/supply trade until you can get Brood Lords out. Thor's effectiveness increase exponentially against ground units as they do splash damage. Keep them low in number is the way to go.
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Planetary fortress + missle turrets + nearby scvs for repair = The Invicible Fortress.
Thor (+ repairing SCVs) = The Invincible Fortress That Walks.
Glhf.
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On September 20 2010 05:15 hadoken5 wrote:
...
I tried magic boxing but it didn't turn out so well, the Brood Lords are too slow....
Funniest thing i have read on tl in a long time.
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Try and see how many broodlords you can build up to the 15 minute mark. Then try how many thors you can build in the same timeframe. Notice something?
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On September 20 2010 09:04 McFoo wrote:
Planetary fortress + missle turrets + nearby scvs for repair = The Invicible Fortress.
Oh please, since when are SCVs ever near a Planetary Fortress?! And even if by some miracle they were, surely they'd have to be micro'd to repair it! What, are you telling me there's some button that makes SCVs automatically repair things without the player having to do anything? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!
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There is no unit besides the brood lord that is supply effective against the thor. That means if you let the Terran max out on thors + vikings, you lose unless you can pull off some cutesy magic trick.
On September 20 2010 07:35 AlaskaYoung wrote:
I've never seen a zvt where the terran has more than 10 thors. Personally I'd never let it get to that point, and I don't think any other decent zerg player would. Hell, I don't even think a terran player would sit in his base until he got over 10 thors. If he hasn't pushed out with 5 or 6 and the hellions/marines, then there are some serious shenanigans going on.
Also, nobody would make just lings or just mutas. The combination of slings/blings/mutas works wonderfully as long as there are no tanks around. I'd gladly trade armies in that respect because I know that I'd have him beat at 1 base compared to my 3.
Do you have a replay of a zvt where the terran turtles up to over 10 thors? I'd like to see it happen without the T dying beforehand.
This is like how all of my ZvTs with infinity go lol...
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On September 20 2010 07:49 AssuredVacancy wrote:
When thors get to double digit numbers mutas stop being an effective counter.
If he has 12 thors, no amount of magic box is gonna make 40 mutas kill that.
If he has 12 thors then you better darn well have most the map! With that many resources you might as well go mass Broodlord with muta support (so some of the thors are attacking air, the other ground). Upgrades are a must though...
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Did u try a combo of broodlords and ultras? I've never seen 20 thors but the broodlongs as meat shields should do well to preserve the ultras.
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A cheaper infestor + roach army should dominate the thors. This of course depends on the timing of your infestor energy, but NP most of the thors and then using the rest of your energy for Infested Terrans... is extremely effective and devastating. I've actually had mass ITs save me from Thors when I've forgotten to research NP. Very very cost effective, as the roaches usually keep the thors from getting in range of the Infestors too.
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i'm confused on how they could mass thors.....wouldn't u magic box/muta harras/take out scvs/take out tech lab?? Or did you go land and just didn't push/harass?
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whenever a terran goes thor against me, i bring along a few corruptors and corrupt them, they make them fall real easily. just use a hydra roach force. i think you'd be okay after that
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I wouldnt build mutas against Thors, because if the terran notices that he will just add some vikings or build a couple of turrets when he starts pushing and then the magic box shenanigans are pretty useless
i cant really tell what to do either though as i am experimenting myself and havent really found a good way yet.
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I found roaches to be a pretty effective.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-150508.jpg)
That's my first (and only so far) game where I fought thor hellion since I switched from toss to zerg a couple days ago, so there are definitely lots of simple things I can do to improve (like not throwing away 4 infestors), but I think the basic concept is sound. It is a diamond level game (terran has about 1150 points)
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I've smashed smaller groups of 5 or 6 with ultras before without a problem. I meet them as soon as they are in an open area. I'm not going to let them get into my base.
I can't help but think that a terran waiting for 10 thors is a dead terran. There's just no way you can mass up that many on one base, without harassing me considering their absurd build time. I would almost say that if he got that many he deserves to win.
Another option no one has suggested that might work is dropped ultras. Get all your overlords, magic box them, move them over the thors and use the drop move trick? It would take some luck and skill, but with enough empty overlords to distract them, it might be enough to do the trick.
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On September 20 2010 07:44 Servius_Fulvius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 07:37 Numy wrote:On September 20 2010 07:29 Servius_Fulvius wrote:
Muta is a good choice, but as long as you control them properly. Use the magic box to ensure that the mutas don't clump up. If they do, splash damage will end them quickly. I find muta are quite good against naked thors but dam is it risky. One mistake from you basically ends the game since 1 clump when thor mass is beyond 4/5 means half the muta are gone. I guess that's fine for pros but man there must be a better less risky way to play vs thors. It's not as risky when you use the magic box. Hotkey all the mutas and fly them to a spot. They will clump, but when the arrive at the spot let them sit and unclump. This will create a square of mutas evenly spaced out called the magic box. Right click over the group of thors. When directly overhead, press H for hold position. The mutas will keep formation thus minimizing the splash from Thors. However, if you attack-move the mutas will clump up and get stomped.
The risk is when you are flying around. IF you don't have 100% knowledge of where his thors are you might by mistake fly clumps mutas within the massive 9 range thor blob that will rape most of your muta in one volley. The risk isn't in the direct confrontation.
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On September 20 2010 07:34 MforWW wrote:
TLO style hellion/thor? just GG and save yourself the time.
i've said ti before and i'll say it again, thors are too versatile and effective, particularly when they're being repaired (aka god-mode thors).
And if you also throw like 5-6 tanks in there............
They need to scrap planetary fortress!!!
On September 20 2010 17:13 OPSavioR wrote:
Ultralisks?
Depends on map... Most maps aren't friendly to zerg ground...
PS:
I wish they didn't break replays from Beta. I played my friend (B- Brood War Terran) TvZ (He was Z and I was T.) I don't have a clue how to play Terran. I've only played Terran twice! I built a shitload of thor hellion and brough scv's to repair. 1-1 150/200 Thor/Hellion/Raven raped 3-3 200/200 Ultra/Hydra/Ling. It was also 3 base vs 6... so it doesn't matter if you "outmacro" Terran cuz you still get rolled. (Besides Terran can easily outmacro you atm...)
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On September 20 2010 07:35 AlaskaYoung wrote:
I've never seen a zvt where the terran has more than 10 thors. Personally I'd never let it get to that point, and I don't think any other decent zerg player would. Hell, I don't even think a terran player would sit in his base until he got over 10 thors. If he hasn't pushed out with 5 or 6 and the hellions/marines, then there are some serious shenanigans going on.
Also, nobody would make just lings or just mutas. The combination of slings/blings/mutas works wonderfully as long as there are no tanks around. I'd gladly trade armies in that respect because I know that I'd have him beat at 1 base compared to my 3.
Do you have a replay of a zvt where the terran turtles up to over 10 thors? I'd like to see it happen without the T dying beforehand.
http://rts-sanctuary.com/replay.php?190370
http://rts-sanctuary.com/replay.php?190369
darkforce didn't pick the best positions to fight, but on those maps, there aren't any.
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1450 diamond zerg here roach+infestors into ultras.
Yea for long time I was like "NP is totally useless omgawd 12 sec" but actually once I tried it and I totally owned my opponent. I was like 900 diamond back then so I thought it doesnt work on higher levels or something but I improved a lot recently and it still works insanely good.
Here's rep of my ladder game against 1400 diamond terran on metalopolis on close positions. He does some weird early contain into 2 base thor+hellion :
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=150517
There's timing when your infestors dont have 100 energy yet and he's kinda able to attack. It's rather small but it's close point then. This time he didnt attack at this point so I was pretty confident that I'd win. Even without ultras, roaches+infestors do brilliant job. 3-4 mutas early are good to get some map control, delay his push and force him to actually make thors instead of tanks. If he gets high on tanks, it's good to think about faster ultras or more mutas.
I watched that replay of darkforce against demuslim and I really believe that those infestors would help. Even those 12 secs is decent amount of time to turn the tide in battle.
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Mass roaches counter mass thors pretty hard if you can burrow to them and pop up right on them. If they get a bunch of shots off first it isn't quite as easy.
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i've only found the counter to be infestors and speelings with speedlords as a screen (fuk up the ai), fungal grouoth almost kill's scv's striaght off
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There are a lot of endgame situations Z can do absolutely nothing against T in.
You can carve out 3-4 base as T, mass PF/turret and around 150 supply you become impossible to break. It's just a broken matchup past midgame if the T is abusive enough.
BC/viking/Raven is even more abusive and basically impossible for Z to kill, even 0/0.
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mass roach doesn't works. cause he will add a couple of marauders in.
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mass thor is very, very hard to deal with as Zerg. I think the only real option out there is Neural Parasite but the timer on it just makes it painful and hard to use. NP is really the only thing I've found that helps even the odds, if you get one infestor for each thor then you are already saving money.
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On October 09 2010 12:49 BlueLobster wrote:
mass roach doesn't works. cause he will add a couple of marauders in.
OK man, did you know that "a couple marauders" don't really do anything to Roach? He needs a butt-ton to counter them, Marauders are only good vs Thor because they can endlessly kite them and never get hit, if you let the Roaching player destroy the rest of your army while you kite with Marauders they will simply reinforce with a billion Zerglings. I hope this isn't just some of your "hard counter" theory?
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Ultra and only fight in the open, and infestor/zergling/baneling. Don't attack thors with banelings of course, but their support units. Fungal growth anything in a big ball, so ultras can cleave it too. Its synergistic because the fungal hits a ton of units, and units in a ball get AOE damage from ultras.
As I see it now, 200/200 Terran vs Zerg is about where you fight. If you fight in a choke, Terran can win with Thors. If you fight in the open, Zerg can win with Ultras. Zerg has the advantage of replenishing army, but Terran has an advantage it can walk Planetary Fortresses as it advances.
My ~1000 Diamond friend I'm coaching is seeing a lot of 200 vs 200 army battles(both sides still have workers crowding supply)
And as some people are saying, a heavy roach composition can win too... But I always think thats risky because if Terran throws in stimmed marauders or siege tanks, they can tilt the battle some against pure roach.
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I don't see where there is a problem.
Corruptors + broodlords counter everything T and P in the game. Zergs can easily turn the tide of any battle by coming out with broodlords. The Thors aren't gonna reach the broodlords because broodlings are in the way, and will keep coming indefinitely. They are also not light units.
Roaches/lings also do extremely well vs mech.
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I normally go roach + a few mutas into brood lords, add in sling bling for mm. And yes, mostly I do lose
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On October 09 2010 15:46 vnlegend wrote:
I don't see where there is a problem.
Corruptors + broodlords counter everything T and P in the game. Zergs can easily turn the tide of any battle by coming out with broodlords. The Thors aren't gonna reach the broodlords because broodlings are in the way, and will keep coming indefinitely. They are also not light units.
Roaches/lings also do extremely well vs mech.
Roach/ling will not beat thor/hellion if they are paying attention and notice burrowed units shadow and scan before roach gets under there army(certainly won't beat them without burrowing under). Broodlords can't be up before a couple push windows.
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On October 09 2010 16:06 Wuped wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 15:46 vnlegend wrote:
I don't see where there is a problem.
Corruptors + broodlords counter everything T and P in the game. Zergs can easily turn the tide of any battle by coming out with broodlords. The Thors aren't gonna reach the broodlords because broodlings are in the way, and will keep coming indefinitely. They are also not light units.
Roaches/lings also do extremely well vs mech. Roach/ling will not beat thor/hellion if they are paying attention and notice burrowed units shadow and scan before roach gets under there army(certainly won't beat them without burrowing under). Broodlords can't be up before a couple push windows.
roach-ling won't, roach-ling-baneling will.
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I love how people quickly dismissed infestors, which completely dominate thors no matter what everyone else has said.
FG has 9 range and 2 splash.
NP also has 9 range.
10 thors is 3000/2000
thats 13 infestors
FG and NP is a very nasty combination...
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On October 09 2010 17:19 kawazu wrote:
I love how people quickly dismissed infestors, which completely dominate thors no matter what everyone else has said.
FG has 9 range and 2 splash.
NP also has 9 range.
10 thors is 3000/2000
thats 13 infestors
FG and NP is a very nasty combination...
10 Thors will actually beat 13 infestors ._.
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if it is a very passive early expand mass thors build, just get mass roach/ling and doomdrop/nydus the back of his main. He will have little to no defense because he is too slow.
Only thing that really works.
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There is no counter. Just watch the sjow vs darkforce games. Sjow played really bad and still won 4-0..
He played the same strat every game and he always does vs zerg he still doesnt manage to not get supply blocked at least 2-3 times every game :p
Funny also how ppl think mutas are good .. They just dont die instantly but they are not good or even close to a cost efficient counter to mass thors ...
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mass broodlord, you are right there is no 'set' counter. i was thinking about this and was going to make a thread but i just went and played ladder.
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On October 09 2010 17:19 kawazu wrote:
I love how people quickly dismissed infestors, which completely dominate thors no matter what everyone else has said.
FG has 9 range and 2 splash.
NP also has 9 range.
10 thors is 3000/2000
thats 13 infestors
FG and NP is a very nasty combination...
Infestor priority is too high. Will get destroyed before you're in range. Don't know why anyone would waste fungals on thors lol. However, 13 infestors with full energy making mass infested terran may have a chance.
And for the OP.. Broodlords are good for support. I've lost a lot of games where I went broodlords though. They are too expensive, too hard to tech to, too slow and die too easily. My suggestion, mass roach and trade armies before he hits critical mass.
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On October 09 2010 17:46 TheDna wrote:
There is no counter. Just watch the sjow vs darkforce games. Sjow played really bad and still won 4-0..
He played the same strat every game and he always does vs zerg he still doesnt manage to not get supply blocked at least 2-3 times every game :p
Funny also how ppl think mutas are good .. They just dont die instantly but they are not good or even close to a cost efficient counter to mass thors ...
Well I'm sorry but Darkforce played awfully: Poor unit composition with too many banelings too few speedlings, terrible macro, no infestors, terrible macro, expanded way too slowly, terrible macro, and lack of upgrades.
(first game)
In the second game his army composition was completely wrong and he again had awwwful macro(needs to be at 5 bases but is at 3....)
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surely fruitdealer taught us that ultralisks work very well against a lot of thors?
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surely fruitdealer taught us that ultralisks work very well against a lot of thors?
Well that was before the ultralisk "bug" got "fixed"..
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i found a mix of zerglings/roach/hydra to be really effective
zerglings/roaches mainly to tank dmg for the hydra to deal the dmg
but don't know if this works out with 2-digits thor numbers
if your opponent uses scv get a fungal on them, it might not kill them but prevent from any thor repair (because they are stuck repairing each other)
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I see many posts, just build this bla bla. Im looking for more of an viable counter at top Diamond and not gold platinum thx. any light units wont work vs Blueflame helions, Thors rape roaches hydras and mutas.
Ultralisk are not really viable also, cause the timing push with Thor / Helion will come before you get Ultras at any good numbers. and the terran would be in big lead in upgrades.
Infestors could work if in a choke with fungal+neural, but the time it last is so bad now.
But atm im just in the dark. damn terrans! :>
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just went to the testing area.
You need 22 banelings for a thor (20 if you have melee weapon +1 and he hasn't +2 armor)
i managed to blow up 5+ thors in a choke with 22 banelings
drop might work as well in a battle since ovies don't have much of a priority (if not focus-fired on them)
but banelings running into thors - wasn't as effective (mainly because i didnt have enough apm to manage my 4 groups of banelings to blow up in the right thor :/ )
if you have problems with hellions you might want to fungal growth them (maybe even multiple times), at least that helped me
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It takes a fair amount of bases to be able to mass out so many thors like that...
shouldnt you really be doing harrasses with mutas and stop him from expanding so much by trading armies with him?
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On September 20 2010 05:15 hadoken5 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Now I know people always say don't let it get there and "lings make thors waster their shots", but the truth is there will be instances in which you will face mass thors and I'm talkin about 10+ Thors with a few hellions. Ultralisks are terrible at this because they die before they even get to the Thor (which is why I don't understand the nerf) and lings can't get the surround fast enough and also die rather quickly to hellions and are 1 shotted my thors.
So would Brood Lords be your only option? And how would they fare? From my understanding Thors are quite good against them as well.
EDIT: These are my out comes from the unit tester:
The amount of thors used in each situation was 20(120 supply) and the zerg army consisted of one unit type that was massed untill one of the thors requirements was met(mineral cost, gas cost, or supply cost) I'm not giving the exact amount but just a general outcome
Lings are terrible against mass thors unless they are fully upgraded and the thors are not.
Roaches take out just over half of the thors.
Banelings do about as well as roaches do, but I think that their damage isn't as reliable as the Thors weren't spread out in this situation.
Hydralisks terrible even with concave and on creep
Mutalisks, magic box is helpful but it was never meant to be a cost effective solution; they didn't do so well(took out less then half of the thors)
Ultralisks, they did well when it was in a very open area, but once I got into a small choke, they took out about one quarter of the thors.
Brood Lords, originally they lost against the thors, taking out about half of the thors. However the second time around I split up the Brood Lords into to groups like so:
BBBBBB
TTTTTT
BBBBBB
and then just attack moved with both of them and then they took out the Thors with about only about 5 losses (16 vs 20).
I tried magic boxing but it didn't turn out so well, the Brood Lords are too slow.
Infestors with roaches was also bad, as 12 seconds per Thor is just not enough.
I'm sure I'm repeating shit that other people have already said, but I believe the answer is twofold:
1) Post a replay.
2) Without a replay, all I can say is that you shouldn't let terran get a high thor count. You need to apply pressure earlier and force him to spend money on other things, because if he is only making hellions/thors there will be periods of extreme vulnerability.
If I was forced to try to fight a pure hellion/thor army head on, I would attempt to use bling drops or burrowed blings to kill off hellions and flank with lings to kill thors. I wouldn't count on that working though.
If you're letting T build a huge army, that probably means you're being too passive. If you're going to be so passive you need to have a huge economy so that it doesn't matter that his units are more efficient than yours. Otherwise you need to be very aggressive and keep his thor count low.
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The best thing I've found for this composition is to learn to use the search feature on the TL.net forums. Many many many many threads on this topic already.
Anyway, best answer for me has to just simply out macro him and attack with roach/ling/muta, or roach/ling/bling/infestor until Ultras pop out. Don't attack him, but macro your heart out, get upgrades etc, until he pushes out and engage him in open field. DO NOT ENGAGE RIGHT OUTSIDE YOUR BASE. If you attack him here (often there is a choke making it hard anyway) and lose then you are be really really hurting. If you kill him in open field AWAY from your base you can get much better positioning, do more damage, and even if you don't kill everything, often he will be so dinged up that he will pull back.
Most important thing, however, is to expand and drone like crazy the minute you learn he is turtling to mass thor/hellion. Keep several spotters to know when he is moving out. Keep tabs on the size of his army and macro hard. You want numbers and a strong economy to beat this composition, imo. It's sounds lame, but it's actually not too hard to do since Thors cost so much, take a long time to build, and are so immobile. He'll likely be on 2-base to your 4-5 if you do things well.
Something that helps you drone of and saturate your 3rd and 4th bases quickly is to get an extra hatch at your natural before you expand again. Having 3-queen/3-hatch before your 3rd base will give you tons of larvae and will allow you to saturate expos really fast, as well as allow you do build/rebuild an army really fast when you see him pushing out.
This comp is very very strong and something I have been trying to improve against. These are the best solutions I have found to date.
SpaceYeti.391 - 88th world percentile - Diamond
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When fighting mass thor/hellion (no tanks), get banelings. An even gas count of banelings to clumped thors means banelings win. If they arnt clumped, lings do well, with banelings to kill hellions. Any thors that live are going to be very weak and easly cleaned up with by lings.
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o.O
I tend to believe you just need a whole bunch of everything. Lately I've been aiming for an Ultra/Hydra/Infestor/Baneling unit comp at the end game, and I feel like it does ok against mass thor. I'll lose the first fight, but reinforcements can usually clean up the leftovers.
I know everyone says Neural Parasite is garbage, and I do tend to agree, but in these mass Thor scenarios, if you've got 4-6 infestors mixed in to your comp already, throwing some NPs really can make a big difference. Especially if you can keep your infestors behind the rest of your ball while the ultras soak damage and the hydras dish it out.
On October 10 2010 01:44 obsid wrote:
When fighting mass thor/hellion (no tanks), get banelings. An even gas count of banelings to clumped thors means banelings win. If they arnt clumped, lings do well, with banelings to kill hellions. Any thors that live are going to be very weak and easly cleaned up with by lings.
This sounds just aweful...
For the record: It takes 22 banes to kill 1 thor at equal upgrades.
Thor: 300/200
22 Banes: 1650/550
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Try banelings out in the unit tester some time, then in a real game. Its not as bad as it sounds. What matters is how many thors you can hit per baneling (or how clumped they are). If you can hit at least 3 thors per baneling, its worth it. If he spreads hits thors out, the banelings can kill any marines/hellions around, while your lings kill the spread out thors. (its only clumped thors that kill lings, if you can get a good lings all the way aroudn a thor, lings do very well vr them.
Its not always 22 banelings at even upgrades, as banelings get +2 per attack, and thors get +1 armor per armor. Its actualy 19 banelings at +3 attack banelings vr +3 armor thors (and as low as 16 banelings at +3 attack vr +0 defense thors).
Given +2 attack vr +2 defense (which is usualy when the 2 base timing attack hits with a lot of thors), then its 20 banelings to kill a thor, thats 1000/500 resources, so if you can hit at least 3 thors per baneling thats 900/600 resources you just killed. Compared to mutas, or other ways of fighting thors, thats very effective, and if you can get more thors hit per baneling, thats just gravy on top (I have hit at most 7 thors if your in the middle of a pack).
Send in like 6-10 lings, with all your banelings (the lings with speed will naturaly go out in front and tank some shots so the banelings get in range), make sure to MOVE your banelings to the biggest group of thors you can see (not attack move), once you are sorounding them in good position then attack move, and all your banelings go boom at the same time. Follow up with some lings to clean up any mostly dead thors left.
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I have to say, I think banelings are really a good option for the endgame. Their big advantage is that first splash is more efficient the bigger the army gets, and banelings are incredibly dense in resources per food. A thor costs 300/200/6, for that amount of food you get 12 banelings, which cost 600/300/6. So if the game goes into the stage where the food cap is important, banelings are truly great. However, I would not really call banelings efficient in terms of resources. If you hit 3 thors per baneling, you are doing even in terms of gas, better in terms of food but worse in terms of minerals.
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Now that I would agree with sirion. However there is an underlying assumption in using banelings against the thors. And that is that you should be at LEAST 1 base ahead (usualy 2 bases ahead against a 2 base timing push), as such "trading down" is good for you with your better econ.
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I played a game recently where I got killed by a large terran army of thors, tanks, and hellions. I was ahead of the terran in resources and my army was bigger (i was at about 200/200 and he was at about 170/200). I'm sure I made many mistakes in this game but it seems that the outcome was so lopsided. Until I engaged him at around 20:45 I was well ahead in units lost and in income, but I lost the battle catastrophically and he countered and rolled over all my bases.
I am a platinum player ranked about 1100.
I am not sure exactly what I should have done. You can probably say that I should have initiated the battle from a different direction or whatnot but DAMN i got owned so bad. Maybe I should have just laid back and teched up to broodlords ... but I wanted to keep him from holding the high yield exp that he had just taken and I felt that if I could do that it would be easy to choke him off and win. And it seemed silly to sit at 200/200 and let him catch up.
Here is the replay. You will notice that somehow around 14:45 I accidentally put about 18 drones into a group with my hydras and lings. I'm not sure how I did this, it was an accident.
The key battle happens around 20:45.
http://www.mediafire.com/?vc4o88fe6wd5kl9
any comments are appreciated.
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On September 20 2010 07:34 MforWW wrote:
TLO style hellion/thor? just GG and save yourself the time.
i've said ti before and i'll say it again, thors are too versatile and effective, particularly when they're being repaired (aka god-mode thors).
TLO style hellion/thor (With blueflame) dies to an equal cost ling+bling+roach army in my experience. (Tested this with blueflame and +1 mech attack vs Speed roach+speed baneling+speed ling)
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@ziggurat, you targeted a PF with hydra while it was getting repaired, without killing the SCVS, while 5 tanks and 5 thors, and hellions were attacking your hydras? Thats about the worst thing you could do in that situation. You need to try to swing around and kill the back expo with some lings, while you tech up to ultra/broodlords get your 4th base going, maybe snipe some tanks/thors that get out of position or are unsiged.
Oh and some minor things, your first queen's seemed a little late (after the pool was done) by like 20 sec, your creep coverage wasnt that good (want some of those artosis map pack games to see a good example of creep coverage), you need very very good creep if your going hydra.
Think of hydras as a glass cannon, they hurt like hell, but if anyone attacks them they die very quickly.
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As this is my normal TvZ play I will give you 2 options.
Roach and mass infestor (10+)
Broodlord Roach
Either way you need to expand and keep the terran contained.
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lol broodlord roach! blords will be toast with vikings!
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Thors DO NOT fare well against BL's.
First- the range difference. The BL's will start popping of shots before the thor can get in range. The AI forces the thor to auto target the broodlings, unless they are directed to focus fire.
second- the BL's are heavy armored air units. They are the battlecruiser and the carrier of the zerg, so they're gonna survive more damage than the output of thors.
BL stats: 225 hitpoints (wow)
1 natural armor. (plus any upgrades)
Thor stats:
Javelin missile
6 damage (+6 light, BL's are not light)
4 shots.
Thors are good against mutas because of the light armor bonus, however BL's are not this case. Thor does only does 20 natural damage against BL. with 225 hitpoints, thats a lot of thors just to take out a few BL's. Each level of BL armor reduces thor damage by 4 points.
It really comes down to positioning though, BL's are big enough that the splash of the javelin won't affect them too much, but don't get lazy with control.
Lings don't normally do strong against terran mech because tanks and hellions normally back up the thors, nullifying them completely. Tanks/hellions can't attack air, so plus to BL.
One bad thing is that 2 vikings can destroy an entire armada of BL's if you're not careful. zerg might morph all their corrupters into BL's so thats why there so vulnerable to flying AA.
Edit:
Just a note, if you want BL's, then don't start off building an ultra den. You're resources need to be allocated perfectly, and honestly with enough BLs you don't need ultras
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Roach infestor w some lings into broodlord is the correct counter to pure thor. Tank/Thor you should be able to have BL or he won't have many of both. The more tanks he has the more lings you want.
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Again Lots of people giving advice without any idea:
Banelings: NO, just NO.
Mutalisk magic box FTW!: NO, this has been discussed to death afair in other topics, after 6 + Thors the magix box means nothing and half of your mutas will die before starting to attack. Also harrassings turns pretty much impossible or waaay to risky.
Infestors: d00ds just make 12 infestor an NP all the Thors ez lolols. Sure could work maybe if you play AGAINST A COMPUTER.
If you guys want to give a solution at least realize that you are playing against an opponent that can think, no decent player will go PURE Thor, the points is to defend against a Thor heavy army because any decent player will add 2 - 3 tanks and extra mins will go on hellions simply because if they make ONLY Thors by the moment they push out you should already have like HALF OF THE MAP. (Not that pure Thor is weak on a fight tough, they are damn gundams)
Best way for me at least is to just mass roachling, im not too fond of NP but having 3-4 infestors with NP is also good if you manage to not get them killed and best way to do that is to overrun the T ball from all the sides. Why not pure lings or pure Roaches? Because theyll DIE easily, if you make pure lings not all will be able to hit at a time not to mention if you play against a terran who hasnt suffered from a lobotomy will add blueflame hellions to sink the extra minerals. (Similar as to what Terran did with Vultures when going mech in BW).
Also trying to burrow move the roaches will help a lot.
Most important advice i can give against mass Thor. NEVER GET BEHIND ON UPGRADES. I learned this the hard way playing against a TL member. Always check for moving armories and put 2 evos asap because you dont want your lings to do 1 dps.
Also add a few lings in case they pull svcs.
TLDR: Theres no hard counter, just mass mass mass and try to get the best surround in the world.
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If a Terran gets 10+ thors, his army is so immobile you should be able to harass him to death.
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@skindzer
I agree on the infesters.
I think magic boxed mutas do work to a point, magic boxed mutas are good harrasing, and will make sure the terran doesnt move out for a long time. They do become very risky when the thor number gets very high (1 mistake and your whole army dies in 1 shot), or marines start getting added. Still they do what they are meant to do, give you map control, prevent drops, and pick off a few structures. Clearly not a core of a 200/200 army vr thors though.
Roaches + speedlings can work, but you MUST have a LOT more resources then he has to make it work (usualy its about 2 to 1 ratio, in that roaches/speedlings need to be twice the resource value of the thors). If you got 4 bases to his 2 though, you can go this route, upgrades are critical as your planning on a truly massive amount of units. There are problems with this, first is that in choke points, your army will be worse then his there (well then dont fight in choke points is easy to say, but not always easy to do, such as on scrap station where the center path through the rocks is a choke point all the way to your base). The second is this tends to fail a lot near the 200/200 limit though, as at that point his army WILL be more powerful then yours (roaches use up food so fast), but if you transition out till broodlords or ultra you can do it. Also auto-repair scvs can ruin your day very easly. Once the roach range increese is in place, this is likely to be a better route, for now its only even i would say.
Speedling/Roach/Banelings work are an alterative to roaches and speedlings. Instead of getting a ton of roahces, just get a lot more lings, and then slowly convert them to banelings (untill he pushes out then convert a lot of them). Again you should focus on an end game with ultra/brood lord though. This route tends to "rush" for the broodlord/ultra a lot faster, as less gas is spent early on roaches. And banelings and ling counter attacks are units to stop timing attacks (untill the broodlord/ultra is out). This path focuses A LOT more on the melee upgrades then the route with roaches, which can make ultra/broodlord be stronger sooner. Also this is much better able to fight in a choke point, as banelings EXCEL in small areas where the units must be clumped. And the splash will kill marines or hellions or auto-repair scvs that happen to be near the thors, making it easier for your ling/roaches to finsih the job. Also baneling drops work wonders, as each baneling does full splash damage (as they are droped into the middle of clumps), that alone can double the damage of your banelings.
Both are options imo, before you dismiss one of them blindly how about you post a reason?
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On October 10 2010 09:59 skindzer wrote:
TLDR: Theres no hard counter, just mass mass mass and try to get the best surround in the world.
Sometimes, even the best surround in the world has failed me vs this sadly enough. Though I have to agree with you on this, you cannot really go infestors or any other cute stuff, mass the hell out of your larvas, and upgrade. And as the quote says. Try (even pray) that you get the best surround in the world.
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The build for the thors usually has fast helion harass with an expansion, so if you scout that they are most likely going mass thor. The way to counter this is take your 3rd relatively quickly, put down a roach warren/2evos/infestation pit and start upgrading from all and get NP.
(You shouldn't need the bonus energy upgrade)
Start massing roaches and make sure you are getting your 2-2 roaches as fast as possible. You should get around 8infestors pretty fast so you can start getting energy for NP/FG.
Don't forget to make overlords and keep producing roaches I've started adding some speedlings against this build and really helps if they dont have enough helions to kill them quickly.
When the fight comes start NP'ing all the thors then attack the ones that you NP'd and should be GG. Also depending on the game and your opponent, getting a fourth is necessary if your opponent is getting a 3rd.
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On October 10 2010 10:03 Piousflea wrote:
If a Terran gets 10+ thors, his army is so immobile you should be able to harass him to death.
Yeah, and terran will just walk over all of your bases granted maps are very small.
Me and my buddy (both zergs) are trying to figure out how to counter it. Even though we are both zergs the one who plays terran wins 8 out of 10 matches 
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Why wouldn't an equal supply army of lings/roaches/hydras/mutas win? Thors don't hard-counter any of those units and roaches are probably Z's best version of a hard-counter to thors. The roaches/lings can soak the dmg while your hydras and mutas finish the job...
Not to mention thors are 1) slow, as has been mentioned and 2) have terrible pathing through chokes. Just gotta pick the right spot for the fight.
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thor helion scares me.
so annoying that zerg has to hard counter everything since all its shit gets hard countered.
mass thor = brood lords. may's well spend any extra larva /minerals you have on zerglings and roaches after that.
I've lost to thor pushes like, virtually every ZvT that i lose.
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So it seems like two real options are coming out of this thread:
1) Broodlords.
2) Don't let the t get that far (that is, treat it like zvp in bw, except thors are easier to mass than archons and reavers and shuttles).
And if you go for option 1, then you still can't let the t get to mass thors with viking backup. (But that really is more like not letting a p get a critical mass of archons and reavers.)
That about right?
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On October 10 2010 12:33 HeyJude wrote:
Why wouldn't an equal supply army of lings/roaches/hydras/mutas win? Thors don't hard-counter any of those units and roaches are probably Z's best version of a hard-counter to thors. The roaches/lings can soak the dmg while your hydras and mutas finish the job...
Not to mention thors are 1) slow, as has been mentioned and 2) have terrible pathing through chokes. Just gotta pick the right spot for the fight.
No, equal supply of lings/roaches/hydras/mutas don't win thor heavy army by any means or any amount of micro. You are just plain wrong.
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I'm thinking more and more a mass number of infestor asap is becoming vital. As well as fighting away from your own base to give you time to remake any lost army.
Even letting an expansion be sacked to give yourself a better engagement seems better then engaging and losing badly to attempt to save an expo(usually my 3rd/gold).
Then with the infestors fungals and things to give speedblings a chance to splash the bio asap then surround with ling and maybe bling the thor to death just to keep the thor numbers low as much as possible and try to counter terrans 3rd or bling kill any PF expo or just kill the scvs at the least.
But its the remaining thors that I usually have a problem with especially if terran is in the process of switching to massing thors. Then I don't know what force to remake to finish some 5-9 thors with. If I go roach he will bring in marauders an if he sits in tight corners or against walls its hard to get the dmg against them.
Next patch if roachs do indeed get +1 to range then they might be more efficent then atm so will hope its good but waiting that long with this problem seems to be a problem.
Edit: I remember a game I played against Fenix way way back in beta and instead of letting the terran sit back I stopped his early drop play on LT and went for speed & drop and just took the fight into his base asap and keep reinforcing with ling roach focusing the thors to keep the numbers down while the numbers where low. This was way way back but I think the principal might still work if you sense mass thors. But if he gets a few marauder I dunno exactly what to do. I think its only gonna be effective versus someone FE'ing in that tight time period where not enough bio is out to overpower you.
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if ur foe has 10 thors you both sat around on two-three bases for way to long. He could have 10+ BCs, spammed tanks, a million nukes, spam ravens, etc.
The issue isnt the thors, its the fact you let him make w/e high tiered unit he wants and however many he wants. It would be like me complaining because i lost to 15 carriers and a mothership.
Also 20 thors is redonk for testing, you will never see 20 thors in a a game.
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When I meet terrans in diamond league ( im 1350 rating ) that harass me and then attacking with a few marines and like 6-7 thors I can just gg right away, lings dont do anything, roaches dont do anything, ultras die before they get in range, hydras get 1 shot. Broodlords would be an ok counter but you get them like 10 minutes after thors are out due to a retarded tech tree. Not to mention when 1 viking comes out all your broodlords die, and the thors even cover the vikings with their 10 range so you cant kill them with a corruptor or mutas.
Mass thor has no vulnerabilties and is extremely easy to tech to, And I HAAATE IT!
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On October 10 2010 12:06 obsid wrote:
@skindzer
I agree on the infesters.
I think magic boxed mutas do work to a point, magic boxed mutas are good harrasing, and will make sure the terran doesnt move out for a long time
When you harass most of the time you wont really be using "magic box" except when trying to put turrets down but if you aim for attacking mules/svc your mutas will clump and theyll also clump when you fly away, if hes going for mass thors hell leave at least 2 on his main to help protect so harassing becomes really risky. Obviously if you can pull it go ahead but still, i was referring to the fact that magic box mutas is not the way to FIGHT against a mass thor army.
There are problems with this, first is that in choke points, your army will be worse then his there (well then dont fight in choke points is easy to say, but not always easy to do, such as on scrap station where the center path through the rocks is a choke point all the way to your base). The second is this tends to fail a lot near the 200/200 limit though, as at that point his army WILL be more powerful then yours..
Well fighting in chokes against Terran will end in defeat pretty much always unless bio and even then it is a hard fight. Also i didnt mean to say to stay on roachling till 200/200. You need to start pumping ultras or Blords (i prefer ultras because of Blords build time) around 150/160 supply.
Also when fighting on Scrap Station it is possible to surround on the blocked passageway you just need to take "the long road". Still i prefer to never engage untill they get out of the "passage". After all they need to do it if they want to attack your hatcheries.
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On October 10 2010 15:39 skindzer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 12:06 obsid wrote:
@skindzer
I agree on the infesters.
I think magic boxed mutas do work to a point, magic boxed mutas are good harrasing, and will make sure the terran doesnt move out for a long time When you harass most of the time you wont really be using "magic box" except when trying to put turrets down but if you aim for attacking mules/svc your mutas will clump and theyll also clump when you fly away, if hes going for mass thors hell leave at least 2 on his main to help protect so harassing becomes really risky. Obviously if you can pull it go ahead but still, i was referring to the fact that magic box mutas is not the way to FIGHT against a mass thor army.
I harrass with magic boxed mutas quite often and it works pretty well. Thors can't be everywhere at once and magic box lets you snipe a few SCVs with probably 0-1 muta deaths so it's quite strong in my opinion.
Also I really would stay on Roach-ling until 200/200, you're teching wayyyy too fast if you get Broodlords at like 150 supply and this is exactly when he has his timing to kill you.
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On October 10 2010 15:49 Shikyo wrote:
I harrass with magic boxed mutas quite often and it works pretty well. Thors can't be everywhere at once and magic box lets you snipe a few SCVs with probably 0-1 muta deaths so it's quite strong in my opinion.
Also I really would stay on Roach-ling until 200/200, you're teching wayyyy too fast if you get Broodlords at like 150 supply and this is exactly when he has his timing to kill you.
I second both of these.
For destroying depots, turrets near SCVs, the armory, whatever, people should use magic boxed mutas. Thors have quite a crazy range on their air attack and can easily launch one barrage by the time you have to see and react to them. That one barrage from a few thors can hurt your mutas severely, maybe even kill a few. Magic boxing helps quite a lot.
Teching to broodlords I find a great thing to do when you hit 200/200 and the first giant battle is over. You should have the economy to support broodlords, the tech into them would be smoother, and it's a great way to mix up your army composition and throw the terran off balance.
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Thor's actually have 2 weaknesses you should exploit.
A) They are hard to mass. Long build time, expensive, and require tech lab.
B) They are slow. The only zerg units that the Thor can catch up to is the overlord and broodlord.
What this means is that if you want to kill thors, you destroy the thor's support and reinforcements first. Base trading is also a good option since zerg should have more bases, you will kill him before he kills you. Or you can wait until he meets your crawlers, and you flank and kill him (maybe with pulled drones). Or if thats not possible or the location is bad, you can try to slowly wither them down by massing and attacking.
Ultralisks fare the best versus Thors in a straight up fight, but its much easier to just slowly pick the terran ball apart or just crush him with a larger army.
Another minor weakness of the thor is that they usually target air units first, so having magic boxed mutas take the first shots can help, provided you're trying to kill him with your ground army.
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On October 10 2010 16:11 stink123 wrote:
Ultralisks fare the best versus Thors in a straight up fight
Definitely not. Broodlords are far better against thors in a "straight up fight" than ultras could even dream of being. In fact I'd go as far as saying ultras aren't very good vs thors at all.
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Brood Lords are 100% the absolute best counter vs Thors in the entire Zerg arsenal. Problem is, a Thor rush is going to come RADICALLY faster than even the fastest Brood Lords. However, if you can somehow just stall to Greater Spire, you're fine. I'm also playing around with roach drops to punish the Terran's fast teching.
I think early the early Thor push is a balance issue and will probably be addressed in a future patch once it becomes more standard.
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Mass infestor neural thorns.
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The most troublesome thing about Thor is that it never is bad. Both ultra and colossus are powerful but also have really clear weaknesses(colo can't attack air, vulnerable to AA, ultra melee, can't attack air), whereas Thor just is good at pretty much everything. He's got nice anti-air that totally wrecks light units and has insane range. He also has the best ground-to-ground DPS in the game with a long range and a lot of health and survivability. It really would help if he had one clear weakness. I really think it'd be better for the game if Thor's ground attack was reverted back to the old 45+45 with slower attack timing. At least then we could say that Zerglings are good against Thor, and Roach would remain unchanged. As is, it's pretty much a no-risk thing to get Thors.
Of course it can be beaten but in my opinion this is an issue, why is it that Thor has no obvious weakness like every other ~300/200 unit in the game?
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Because collusi completely rape ground and ultras completely rape mech units/do decent melee damage?
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I think a lot of Thors + mass Marauders/medivacs (2:1 ratio of maraders to marine) + tanks (+ vikings if anti air is needed).
It just withstands anything because Marauders can tank damage with those medivacs. lings/banes/ hydras get one shoted by marauders by the time it gets to the marauders because of those tanks. Roaches get destroyed by stimmed marauders. Mutas dont work. Broods don't work. Ultras get raped by marauders. INfestors get raped by tanks.
The only way to beat these armies is to Surround and pray that all your men attack at the same time which will allow you to use your infestors.
Going head on = death and loss.
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On October 10 2010 17:53 teamamerica wrote:
Because collusi completely rape ground and ultras completely rape mech units/do decent melee damage?
completely rape = is quite mediocre and loses in cost-efficiency? Okay. Actually Thor is better at both but that's beside the point
What I mean is, you can build Thors always, it takes no strategy, no decision-making. I wouldn't go mass Colossus vs a player who masses Mutas. You can build Thors vs that. They're going Hydras? Thor. Roaches? Thor is still good, just add some stuff. Lings? Thors and Hellions. It's never a bad idea and always good, I really don't think that that's how a unit should be. You can always build it and it's never the wrong decision.
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Macro better. Really, if he has 10 thors and a couple of helions you could have hundreds of zerlings or whatever units you wanna use. Out produce the terran. Spend more time thinking how and when to produce more units then what units to produce.
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Burrow move roaches beat massed Thors by cost. I assume with the patch increasing roach range it will only get better. You'll need something else to take care of the bio ball that moves around with the Thors though.
Infestors are good to have no matter what units Terran are using.
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It's a mystery to me why Neural only has such a short timer. It's not particularly easy to get, it's fairly easy to counter (shoot the infestor), it's utter crap as it is.
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I play terran. I used this build and lost to a guy that went 5ultras, 2 infestors for fg and a few hydras.
I had +- 6 or so thors and bit of bio and medivacs. I wont even lie, at first it was just an army trade but then i couldnt keep up with how quickly zerg can rebuild an army. he had 5 ultras back on the field with more infestors a lot quicker than i could regain any resistance to what he got back so quickly.
Banshees didnt help much either
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:threadnecro:
I know old thread but a question
What you do against Thor+Marrauder in ZvT?
I tried ling/infestor/broodlords. after first engagement complete army died of him, I couldnt start a real attack because I had to max out again too. When I reached his base with lings/bls, there were already 10 vikings popped out. so BLs is not an option imo, what else could I do? roaches doesnt do well against marrauder, mass zerglings die to 8 thors+marrauder, thors just dont fall quick enough.
infestors are quiet useless too against stim marrauders and since NP gets nerfed I dont want to try that out against thors.
just stupid that a 2 base terran max out faster against a 4 base zerg, nice balance.
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This isn't super serious suggestion and has been suggested before most likely but how would mass muta + spines + expanding work and how would it variate in different maps like xnc to tol darim altar LE?
e: this is more like mid to early late game strategy, later you could switch to t3 or another comp.
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dude, wtf are you talking about
ultralisks>>>>>>thor. In bigger numbers it's even more effektive as the ultras will hit more thors on the same time. Lings, something like 70-80lings can take down 10thors without a problem and in the case of not killing all of them you can just make another 70-80lings fast as shit and do it all over again and kill the thors
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Infestors with neural might work? dont know if it is cost effective tho
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On September 13 2011 20:37 xciLe wrote:
Infestors with neural might work? dont know if it is cost effective tho
DONT TOUCH ME WITH THAT FUCKING PROBE.
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EPT
