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Hi all,
I'm looking to have a discussion about the main tech flow you choose in the Z vs Z games. Obviously a large portion of early game centers around speedling baneling, but as we progress into the midgame we've got two main choices... Hydralisks or Mutalisks.
Mutalisks definately have the chance for a fast win, if you catch your opponent off guard with only 1-2 queens, no evo chamber or still not quite at lair tech it's almost always gg. Even if they are close behind your teching, or have some spores up you can do some very effective harass in regards to their stray overlords or unprotected portions of their base.
On the flip side of things, I find usually a small amount of hydralisks rip the shreds out of mutalisks (assuming one side isn't dramatically outnumbered). Once you've got hydra's up you can counter mutalisks fairly easily, and can often win with a push supported by speedlings. Of course however you're now still a little vulnerable to banelings.
Often the way I'm viewing it now is if I go mutalisk I've got a small chance of a quick win, however a large portion of the time I'm countered by hydra's (basically a neutral / negative scenario), where if I go hydra's I won't always get a quick gg, but I'll be good against muta's or at least even (a neutral / positive scenario).
I'm just curious as to what the majority of people usually transition into for Z v Z, and what criteria you use to make the decision? Do you estimate how far behind they are with tech, and if it's a reasonable amount go muta's? Do you go hydra's pretty much all the time?
Cheers.
Poll: What is the main tech you choose?Mutalisks (173) 62% Hydralisks (108) 38% 281 total votes Your vote: What is the main tech you choose? (Vote): Hydralisks
(Vote): Mutalisks
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While fragile, you get a lot of map control with the mutas (and, with your minerals, lings). If you can harass workers, keep them afraid of expanding (while expanding yourself), and get ahead economically, that more than closes the gap in straight up army strength. In Sc1 hydras were a lot faster, but now mutas are about just as fast and hydras have been nerfed.
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Infestors into ultralisks allllll the way.
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Hydra's can be killed by lings and banelings. Mutas are a good tech choice because if someone keeps going ling baneling you will win, if you go hydra with lingbaneling he doesn't even need muta to kill you.
If you want a "counter" to muta go infestors with fungal+IT and add a couple queens.
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Ive found that in numbers hydras decimate mutas, so ive started using mutas for support and harras and going for baneling/speedlings, with muta backup and micro it can be quite effective, but if you get caught in a good fungal growth or are behind in upgrades its an uphill struggle.
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Here's an example of where I think mutalisks can leave you short however,
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/78910-1v1-zerg-steppes-of-war
I completely agree that there is pretty bad play in this game, however I think the principle still shows that muta's can leave you vulnerable when forced to confront hydra's (base defense is an example of where you can force this situation).
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I usually go Muta, and only go Hydra if I know I'm behind the other player and need a quick response.
The problem with going Hydras is that it opens up for Baneling play, and Banelings completely own Hydras. And even with Spore Colonies and constant Queen/Hydra reinforcement, you can continue to Muta harass Overlords, Extractors, mineral lines, Queens, lone Hydras, etc., until your enemy is at the breaking point.
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Once you have +2 upgrades on melee, two banelings (100/50) kill a hydra (100/50). Sinking all your gas in mutalisks is going to be a problem, but if you go muta/baneling then you can handle hydras pretty easily. Of course, well-used infestors will completely ruin your day.
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Add 3-5 infestors to a hydra ball and no ling/baneling will touch them
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I open with queens (like...8 of them) roaches and hydras and a fast expand. I looooove when someone goes ling/bling/muta because it means another win for me. Even if they get banelings, micro them properly, and take down my hydras (3 rather large ifs), roaches protect the queens from ling, and queens wreck mutas.
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Roach Hydra Infestor has never seen me lose to Muta/Baneling. Fungal growth and a Roach wall stops the Banelings cold, and the Hydras melt the Fungal'd Mutars.
Then they will panic spam Lings that are eaten by the Roaches. gg.
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In ZvZ I like to go roach hydra infestor.
The Hydra alone puts the hydra player into a disadvantage compared to the muta player.
The unit that flipps that advantage is the infestor.
Some well placed fungal growth and all mutas are gone, also banelngs simply melt in fungal growth.
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Mutalisks, in ZvZ containment is key, so keeping him in his base will force him into Hydra, then that's your cue to go baneling.
...Unless he has infestors, then it could get tricky.
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roach/hydra/infestor into ultras. Fungal solves the muta/ling/bling problem
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It depends on the size of the map
A small map favours hydra play while a large map favours muta play.
Mutas win when you can exploit the hydras lack of mobility. Hydras win when you can force combat without being decimated back home.
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On September 13 2010 00:55 Altsa wrote:
Add 3-5 infestors to a hydra ball and no ling/baneling will touch them
If you have 3-5 infestors no amount of muta is going to matter anyway, so why not go roaches? Pure roach can just power through hydra infestor.
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Yeah, ZvZ is gonna eventually be Infestor vs infestor 
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On September 13 2010 01:31 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 00:55 Altsa wrote:
Add 3-5 infestors to a hydra ball and no ling/baneling will touch them If you have 3-5 infestors no amount of muta is going to matter anyway, so why not go roaches? Pure roach can just power through hydra infestor.
No way...proper fungals means you're fighting with at most 1/2 of your supply at once vs the other player's entire army of 6 range hydras. Hydra infestor >>>> pure roach.
Midgame zvz all comes down to who has better infestor positioning imo. Even if you're going roach and he's going hydras, if you get the better fungals off then you might still be able to win even with your 3 range deficit.
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On September 13 2010 00:55 Bair wrote:
I open with queens (like...8 of them) roaches and hydras and a fast expand. I looooove when someone goes ling/bling/muta because it means another win for me. Even if they get banelings, micro them properly, and take down my hydras (3 rather large ifs), roaches protect the queens from ling, and queens wreck mutas.
Problem with this is that I'd just run my banelings past ur queens and take out the mineral line. I've tried this before too and it doesn't work out so well for me. Maybe you've been able to make it work though.
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Mutas are generlaly a lot better. With speelings/blings, mutas are extremely effective against a moving hydra army. The main thing of course, is the power of muta harass. Until you get a critical mass of hydras, your hydra army simply can't keep running around defending expos, buildings, ovies, etc. You end up spending a ton of money on more hydras/queens/spores and can't drone up/tech and do all that sort of stuff.
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On September 13 2010 02:48 Barrin wrote:
I always aim for infestor/hydra/roach/a few lings.
hydra > muta
infestors + hydra >>> lots of muta
infestor > baneling & zergling & mutas.
but
roach > hydra
roach > baneling
So basically what it comes down to is
roach > hydra
hydra > muta
muta > roach
and when i can take care of the mutas easily with a few infestors hydra+roach makes a lot of sense.
I may get contained but my army will destroy yours.
I guess it can eventually become
brood lords > hydra/roach/infestor
but then
corruptor > brood lord
I have been thinking recently about how infested terrans could be used in a straight up fight when im going hydra/infestor and they're countering it with roaches. Maybe hydra + infested terrans > roaches but I'm not sure yet.
I never find roaches to be worth it...I've always found that any money I spent on roaches would be better spent on other things like upgrades, expansions, or more hydras. How do you make them work against an opponent that uses infestors on your roaches to a) prevent them from getting in range and b) form an immobilized roach wall that stops your hydras from maneuvering as well as they would like?
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Mutas only seem real strong if they're not using infestors. If they are, it's very easy to loose a large amount of mutas just because you happened to pass near a couple infestors. That is, of course, assuming conventional ground->air doesn't shut you down.
The roach/infestor idea above sounds very interesting... going to have to try that. You can add a few hydras to be well-rounded, do burrow shenanigans, or just go straight to ultras.
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I prefer hydra. I have lost too many times with muta, they are just so fragile. Unless you have a large amount of ling to go with your muta, his hydras will just attack your base and you are forced to come defend, or base trade (he will generally have higher DPS) Plus if you stick with ling muta all he needs is a few banes to kill your lings, and then your muta are toast.
I generally go ling bane, into hydra to stop the harass. Then I get a few spines to defend my mineral lines, and I push. I do it around the time when we both just started to get out mutas for him, and hydra for me. With my banes I can crush his ling army, and then roll over his mutas that are trying to defend. If we started on uneven footing then this can be different, as in if he kills a ton of my workers early on or something.
Creep is a big must for this setup, you want to be able to hit his base fast once the hydra are out.
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Mutas are just so fantastic at harassment. And you can keep pumping out lings if youre short on gas.
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I've played a lot of ZvZ and I think it's probably my most solid match up. From my understanding going roach into infestor into hydra is the best choice. In general I will push if they go muta and just put up a massive amount of defense before leaving. If I can't push I exp and usually split my army in about half.
Roach Hydra Infestor is the best middle game combination, they do lose to late game such as ultra or broodlords, but both can still be beaten because you will usually take a good advantage middle game.
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Going muta gives you a few huge advantages. Don't count on the fast win because zergling scouting is so easy in ZvZ that you are not going to be able to hide lair tech, and lair always implies spire. Instead, you get a few big advantages:
1) You force them to invest minerals in spore crawler and queens
2) You force them to respond with either hydras or infestors and keep them in his base
3) You completely prevent their ability to expand
Mass mutas isn't really scared by any army unless it has infestors. A big ball of hydras is kinda scary, but you need to keep your muta count large enough that you force him to go back to his base. Plus ling/bling wrecks hydras.
Your army is a lot more versatile too. If you have muta/ling and 200 gas and you see he went heavy heavy hydra, morph some banelings. If he is getting lots of roaches or lings, then spend that gas on mutas instead.
The biggest thing is to just not go for the win right away. Containing them for 5 minutes while you are ahead on expansions will probably lead right to a win. Keep your army close to keep them from mass droning, but if they're on one base and you're on two victory will find itself.
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Hydra.
A few spores at your mineral lines will completely halt a muta harass unless he has a large group - which by then you should have stalled enough to have a good counter with hydras or if you managed in time infestors. You stall the harass the value of the muta goes down, as your force gets stronger overall.
Its not very hard to spread creep in a ZvZ for your hydra's and OLs make it even easier, its very simple to make a highway with just OLs and then use a queen to pop a few tumors in distant areas while the starting one at you base connects to them in a very short time, OL doodoo allowing you to skip waiting for the spread and pop the moment its off CD.
Now you have map awareness, easier transitions to expos, and faster movement.
this should apply to all match ups anyways. - off topic but in a long game with transport you can drop a queen at distant expos and use a tumor to slow down T/P enemies from expanding.
I also bring 2 overseers to watch for Bling traps.
roaches tank blings and lings. infestors destroy muta mobility - destroys blings/lings. While hydra's do terrible,terrible damage. Lings are insanely fast and can reinforce your army very quickly.
edit: burrow never hurt any drones ^^!
edit2: evo upgrades apply to all ground units while to get on the same upgrade speed as 2 evo's you'd need 2 spires.
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Hey there.
here's a link for a Z vs Z i played recently, my opponent played random so u might say that he didnt know how to play zerg, but still its kind of a funny replay and might be something to try against a real zerg player if you're having any problems against mutas in Z vs Z
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3570
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While I agree with Hydra/Roach/Infestor, I'm more concerned about the harassment that Mutas cause. IMHO, the harassment and mobility they have pose for more issues to me than a land-based army. Granted, FG the Mutas, and it's a field day, butttt....
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Speedling/Hydra/Infestor all the way. ZvZ is my best matchup, and I generally work towards this composition each game.
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I don't open with banelings or zerglings, and don't get mutas either.
In fact I'll add something to that statement:
In my entire history of playing ZvZ in SC2 I've almost never gone banelings or mutalisks or zerglings.
Had an 80% win rate in beta, and 70% now, and both of those are only that low because of mistakes I made and/or enemy cheese rushes.
I find a cautionary and reactionary tech to roaches and burrow-and/or-ranged -attack works well. At that point, you can go roach-hydra, which is good for an early offensive attack, but very risky, or sit in the base and expand with queens and infestors.
Anyway, my point is that infestors kill all/most mutalisks and banelings on sight.
All one needs to do is simcity and/or ramp block in the early game to protect from zerglings and banelings.
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When I go mustalisks I have tons of minerals left over for zerglings, and I mix a few banelings in there which will tear apart the hydralisks. I've never had a problem vs hydras in ZvZ, infestors are a much bigger threat.
I remember reading that infestor's fungal growth outranges everything the Z has except broodlords, so you can control where EVERY fight happens if your on top of your game.
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On smaller maps, I prefer roach/hydra. Very versatile, beats pure roach, beats muta, banelings aren't a problem, etc.
Use a nydus on larger maps to fix the hydra mobility problem.
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hydra-roach loses so badly vs ling-bling-muta it's not even funny... with early and well used infestors hydra-roach is strong, but only then
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if the rush distance is long, mutas probably better as you can harass, you have time to set up spines etc if he decides to push.
Mutas can fly around, delay, harass, kill expos... while hydras are more of to defend until you feel you have enough where it will force your opponent to pull mutas to defend himself. Either way it sounds like well used mutas should be the better way.
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Mutas are very strong against hydra/roach, but very weak against hydra/roach infestor, since one good fungal growth and you have lost your entire muta army.
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This is interesting. The majority of the poll goes to Muta play but the comments suggest that Hydra Infestor is really strong. Going to have to try Hydra/Infestor/Roach 'cos I HATE sling/bling + fast muta games.
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I want to say Mutalisks, just because they always are the first to pop, but I find that I always end up switching my tech over to Hydralisks.
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I'd say both are good, but I would lean on muta/ling.
If you open Roach/Hydra, you will have a time before you regain map control with infestors. So the Muta/Ling person can get an extra expansion and better economy to tech and/or get the large ling/bane army quicker. Just seems better for the macro play.
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Infestor/Hydra/Roach rapes Muta/Ling/Bling really badly. All you need is an Infestor and 2-3 hydras at your base area (when you're on two bases) to stop any kind of early Muta harass and then push-expand with the rest of your army when the harass comes. They're forced to retreat to defend their main (if they can) and by the time they get there usually the Banes are already dead due to FG. 75% of the time it's gg and almost 100% of the time you're in a better position than the opponent.
Muta/Ling/Bling is very good against Terran, but I think Zerg has too many good options to deal with it.
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I've switched to hydralisks on advice, due to my shitty apm. However in ZvZ the other guy always goes mutabling, so thanks for the advice on infestors, I really don't use them enough.
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I've said this in another thread but I will reiterate:
If you are the first person to get lair then you should go muta because mutas have much higher mobility than hydras and will give you map control and will allow you to take your 3rd base much faster than your opponent. If your opponent techs to spire himself his spire will be later than yours so you will win as long as you match his muta/corrupter production (i.e. so long as you retain air dominance, gas if obviously very important for this). If your opponent techs hydra then build a banelings nest if you do not already have one and get the speed upgrade. Banelings are effective against hydralisks. As the player with the higher mobility you should expand away from your opponent because it will be much harder for him to destroy the expansion. As the player who is facing someone who gets his spire faster than you can get hydralisks. The Hydra den builds a lot faster than spire so if you are not far behind you will easily be able to get some hydras before he gets his mutalisks to your base (and he will have to wait to get quite a few mutalisks anyway because queens can deal with a couple of them). The next thing to do as the hydralisk player is to get an infestation pit as fungal growth is ridiculously effective against mutalisks/lings/banelings. When you have enough infestors (2-4 I suppose) you need to push your opponent so that he doesn't simply sit back with his map control and get too much of a great economy. As the hydra player, expand towards your opponent when possible because if you are moving in the direction of your opponent the rush distance will be shortened and the weakness of your immobility will be reduced.
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On September 13 2010 16:53 Geo.Rion wrote:
hydra-roach loses so badly vs ling-bling-muta it's not even funny... with early and well used infestors hydra-roach is strong, but only then
seconded
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On September 13 2010 21:57 amorpheus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 16:53 Geo.Rion wrote:
hydra-roach loses so badly vs ling-bling-muta it's not even funny... with early and well used infestors hydra-roach is strong, but only then seconded
I always thought that Infestors made any army strong. I mean, nothing beats massing 30 Infestors and spitting Infested Terran out in their mineral lines
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Whenever i go hydra/roach and i leave my base to push, i utterly got destroyed by mutas that are raping my drones 
I seem to always be stuck in my one base, unable to take the initiative and only defend while my opponent controls the entire map with speedlings and mutas.
When going hydra/roach, would a nydus to the opponent's base be a viable offensive action vs mutas ?
How do you expand as hydra/roach user ? How do you split your army ?
The map where i have the most problems is desert oasis as it takes so long to reach opponent's base by ground.
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It's interesting that Mutas win the poll yet the consensus of comments, I think, seems to suggest that Festor/Hydra is very strong. Going to have to try the Infestor Hydra method since I HATE sling/bling / fast muta play.
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I'll take hydra over muta, with a properly spread creep even the slow hydras can get around your base fast + spore crawlers to help your lines + a good FG takes care of a muta ball. While NP sucks, FG and Infested Terran rock. Blings will take out Hydras yes, but infestors + your slings + roaches will help deal with them.
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It is hard to say just because you can't always just go one or the other. Largely players seem to lean towards mutas ... but that's also with the addition of lings in the mix. Every game is different and should largely be played in accordance with what it is you're dealing with. If what it is your your trying to get out of this post is an answer as to what units you should go, I would say your best bet is to do more scouting, a lot more scouting. Always know what your opponent is going and what his next move is going to be, let that allow your unit composition to fall in to play. It's just that a very large population of SC players do not scout nearly enough and / or gain map control in which will give you a lot more time to react to all situations. Hope this can help you in one way or another [{-_-}].
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fungal growth completely shuts down lings, banelings and muta harass.
while ling bling into muta is the "norm" for most zergs since it is so effective, if you face a zerg who gets a couple infestor out, FG will rape it harder then immortals do roaches.
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go hydras, with queen your covered and expand. gg.
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I used to go mutas all the time but ever since I've started playing 900+ diamond zergs I've found that my muta/ling/bane army cannot beat a hydra/roach/infestor army.
If your opponent manages to get a good ball of hydras and get 3+ infestors, your mutas and banelings will never touch his army. fungal growth on banelings stops them cold, and does the same thing to mutas. All it takes is one good fungal growth and you just lost your ball of 20 mutas. At that point the game is basically over. With well-placed spores and 1-2 extra queens, you can't really harass at all with mutas until you build up a huge ball, at which point your opponent will have infestors out.
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why dont you have infestors as an option? if your opponent is going muta. you can throw down an infestation pit and a hydra den at the same time. a good fungal growth in combination with hydras shuts down muta play pretty damn hard. a simple counter attack will win the game from there.
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Its all about how aggressive you are. If you're defensive then hydras are fine but it takes forever to get to the oppenent and in this time they can sidestep your army and attack your main. So I guess the choice comes down to maps. They probibly work best on small maps with little open spaces in the middle like steps of war.
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On September 13 2010 23:18 PovGosse wrote:Whenever i go hydra/roach and i leave my base to push, i utterly got destroyed by mutas that are raping my drones I seem to always be stuck in my one base, unable to take the initiative and only defend while my opponent controls the entire map with speedlings and mutas. When going hydra/roach, would a nydus to the opponent's base be a viable offensive action vs mutas ? How do you expand as hydra/roach user ? How do you split your army ? The map where i have the most problems is desert oasis as it takes so long to reach opponent's base by ground.
Well first you should expand early vs zerg, early pressure from zerg is super easy to deal with, especially if you're planning to go roach/hydra/infestor since roaches are already part of your tech.
If you have infestors, you hardly need anything to defend a muta harass as long as it's reasonable size (5-10), as I said before with minimal micro 1 infestor plus 2-3 hydras defend it with ease. I would have two squads like this on DO though, since the natural is a long way away. On maps with close natural you only really need 1 of these "Muta defense squads."
I would imagine a nydus would work well on DO, but on most maps I wouldn't say it's necessary because you've been spreading creep though whole game. Hydras and not stupidly slow on creep and speed roaches are actually pretty fast. If you hold off harass long enough you should have a Zerg ball + 2-3 infestors that can slice through muta/ling/bling like a cutco knife through ice cream.
I usually take my third after the first harass is shut down. The nice thing about infestors + hydras holding off harass is you don't just hold it off, you kill the units altogether. After that first harass they don't have much (You should have enough roaches to deal with sling/bling pushes at this point).
Muta build RELY on harass. If you can minimize the damage, you win.
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On September 13 2010 02:38 Zerksys wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 00:55 Bair wrote:
I open with queens (like...8 of them) roaches and hydras and a fast expand. I looooove when someone goes ling/bling/muta because it means another win for me. Even if they get banelings, micro them properly, and take down my hydras (3 rather large ifs), roaches protect the queens from ling, and queens wreck mutas. Problem with this is that I'd just run my banelings past ur queens and take out the mineral line. I've tried this before too and it doesn't work out so well for me. Maybe you've been able to make it work though.
The timing works out well. You basically get 2 queens and block your ramp with them, and standard ling/bling falls to it. There is a Day[9] daily about it. I have not lost to ling/bling/muta since doing it. Queens are far more beastly than people give them credit for, and are actually better against ling/bling than roaches are.
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On September 13 2010 00:55 Grimjim wrote:
Roach Hydra Infestor has never seen me lose to Muta/Baneling. Fungal growth and a Roach wall stops the Banelings cold, and the Hydras melt the Fungal'd Mutars.
Then they will panic spam Lings that are eaten by the Roaches. gg.
This.
My ZvZ is a roach openning, I can 95+% of the time take my ramp before hit the field, and 80% before lings get in my base, which get killed by my queen/initial lings.
On close position maps, I usually Roach/Mass Queen. On far positions, it's roach/hydra into Roach/Hydra/Infestor
I make 6-9 roaches, take my natural, get lair, gas up, and pump hydras/roaches until about hydra range finishes. I make extra queens. Once hydra range finishes, I push out. This push generally wins me the game against ling/bling/muta. While I'm pushing, I finish saturating my base (if necessary) and get an infestation pit. Pick up path glands, pump roach/hydra with 2 infestors and push again. This almost always wins me the game.
On September 13 2010 23:18 PovGosse wrote:Whenever i go hydra/roach and i leave my base to push, i utterly got destroyed by mutas that are raping my drones I seem to always be stuck in my one base, unable to take the initiative and only defend while my opponent controls the entire map with speedlings and mutas. When going hydra/roach, would a nydus to the opponent's base be a viable offensive action vs mutas ? How do you expand as hydra/roach user ? How do you split your army ? The map where i have the most problems is desert oasis as it takes so long to reach opponent's base by ground.
Pumping 2 queens per base, and making sure they're connected helps deal with this. Drop a spore crawler at each mineral line if you feel like your bases are too far apart.
Nydus worms work very well with Roach/Hydra/Infestor, though a lot of people seem to think that if you can't get into your opponent's base with them, they're useless. Nydusing to the opponent's cliff over their natural is really strong, and is very hard to counter without infestors. Also nydusing to a spot closer to your opponents base can help with closing the gap to his base off creep (since Hydras are so slow) and allows you to send a few units back if he's muta harassing very heavily. The Nydus network building also gives you a place to hide your drones safely.
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EPT
