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Hi all,
I'm looking to have a discussion about the main tech flow you choose in the Z vs Z games. Obviously a large portion of early game centers around speedling baneling, but as we progress into the midgame we've got two main choices... Hydralisks or Mutalisks.
Mutalisks definately have the chance for a fast win, if you catch your opponent off guard with only 1-2 queens, no evo chamber or still not quite at lair tech it's almost always gg. Even if they are close behind your teching, or have some spores up you can do some very effective harass in regards to their stray overlords or unprotected portions of their base.
On the flip side of things, I find usually a small amount of hydralisks rip the shreds out of mutalisks (assuming one side isn't dramatically outnumbered). Once you've got hydra's up you can counter mutalisks fairly easily, and can often win with a push supported by speedlings. Of course however you're now still a little vulnerable to banelings.
Often the way I'm viewing it now is if I go mutalisk I've got a small chance of a quick win, however a large portion of the time I'm countered by hydra's (basically a neutral / negative scenario), where if I go hydra's I won't always get a quick gg, but I'll be good against muta's or at least even (a neutral / positive scenario).
I'm just curious as to what the majority of people usually transition into for Z v Z, and what criteria you use to make the decision? Do you estimate how far behind they are with tech, and if it's a reasonable amount go muta's? Do you go hydra's pretty much all the time?
Cheers.
Poll: What is the main tech you choose?Mutalisks (173) 62% Hydralisks (108) 38% 281 total votes Your vote: What is the main tech you choose? (Vote): Hydralisks
(Vote): Mutalisks
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While fragile, you get a lot of map control with the mutas (and, with your minerals, lings). If you can harass workers, keep them afraid of expanding (while expanding yourself), and get ahead economically, that more than closes the gap in straight up army strength. In Sc1 hydras were a lot faster, but now mutas are about just as fast and hydras have been nerfed.
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Infestors into ultralisks allllll the way.
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Hydra's can be killed by lings and banelings. Mutas are a good tech choice because if someone keeps going ling baneling you will win, if you go hydra with lingbaneling he doesn't even need muta to kill you.
If you want a "counter" to muta go infestors with fungal+IT and add a couple queens.
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Ive found that in numbers hydras decimate mutas, so ive started using mutas for support and harras and going for baneling/speedlings, with muta backup and micro it can be quite effective, but if you get caught in a good fungal growth or are behind in upgrades its an uphill struggle.
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Here's an example of where I think mutalisks can leave you short however,
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/78910-1v1-zerg-steppes-of-war
I completely agree that there is pretty bad play in this game, however I think the principle still shows that muta's can leave you vulnerable when forced to confront hydra's (base defense is an example of where you can force this situation).
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I usually go Muta, and only go Hydra if I know I'm behind the other player and need a quick response.
The problem with going Hydras is that it opens up for Baneling play, and Banelings completely own Hydras. And even with Spore Colonies and constant Queen/Hydra reinforcement, you can continue to Muta harass Overlords, Extractors, mineral lines, Queens, lone Hydras, etc., until your enemy is at the breaking point.
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Once you have +2 upgrades on melee, two banelings (100/50) kill a hydra (100/50). Sinking all your gas in mutalisks is going to be a problem, but if you go muta/baneling then you can handle hydras pretty easily. Of course, well-used infestors will completely ruin your day.
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Add 3-5 infestors to a hydra ball and no ling/baneling will touch them
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I open with queens (like...8 of them) roaches and hydras and a fast expand. I looooove when someone goes ling/bling/muta because it means another win for me. Even if they get banelings, micro them properly, and take down my hydras (3 rather large ifs), roaches protect the queens from ling, and queens wreck mutas.
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Roach Hydra Infestor has never seen me lose to Muta/Baneling. Fungal growth and a Roach wall stops the Banelings cold, and the Hydras melt the Fungal'd Mutars.
Then they will panic spam Lings that are eaten by the Roaches. gg.
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In ZvZ I like to go roach hydra infestor.
The Hydra alone puts the hydra player into a disadvantage compared to the muta player.
The unit that flipps that advantage is the infestor.
Some well placed fungal growth and all mutas are gone, also banelngs simply melt in fungal growth.
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Mutalisks, in ZvZ containment is key, so keeping him in his base will force him into Hydra, then that's your cue to go baneling.
...Unless he has infestors, then it could get tricky.
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roach/hydra/infestor into ultras. Fungal solves the muta/ling/bling problem
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It depends on the size of the map
A small map favours hydra play while a large map favours muta play.
Mutas win when you can exploit the hydras lack of mobility. Hydras win when you can force combat without being decimated back home.
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On September 13 2010 00:55 Altsa wrote:
Add 3-5 infestors to a hydra ball and no ling/baneling will touch them
If you have 3-5 infestors no amount of muta is going to matter anyway, so why not go roaches? Pure roach can just power through hydra infestor.
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Yeah, ZvZ is gonna eventually be Infestor vs infestor 
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On September 13 2010 01:31 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 00:55 Altsa wrote:
Add 3-5 infestors to a hydra ball and no ling/baneling will touch them If you have 3-5 infestors no amount of muta is going to matter anyway, so why not go roaches? Pure roach can just power through hydra infestor.
No way...proper fungals means you're fighting with at most 1/2 of your supply at once vs the other player's entire army of 6 range hydras. Hydra infestor >>>> pure roach.
Midgame zvz all comes down to who has better infestor positioning imo. Even if you're going roach and he's going hydras, if you get the better fungals off then you might still be able to win even with your 3 range deficit.
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On September 13 2010 00:55 Bair wrote:
I open with queens (like...8 of them) roaches and hydras and a fast expand. I looooove when someone goes ling/bling/muta because it means another win for me. Even if they get banelings, micro them properly, and take down my hydras (3 rather large ifs), roaches protect the queens from ling, and queens wreck mutas.
Problem with this is that I'd just run my banelings past ur queens and take out the mineral line. I've tried this before too and it doesn't work out so well for me. Maybe you've been able to make it work though.
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EPT
