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After playing another game against a 1400~ diamond zerg I'm really at a loss on how to handle the mass mutaslisk harass. I hover around the 1200~ rank. Here's the common setting...
It's Lost temple, cross positions. I early gas+factory and wall my ramp against the current flavor of the month which seems to be a six roach push. I don't like using "reaper cheese" but I did drop a tank on the ridge stalling his expansion so I'm doing good. I'm ahead in mineral pull, expanded before him and sitting on two factory, 3 barracks (2 tech, 1 reactor) and 1 starport and I'm pumping a few tanks, 1 thror, marine/marauder and medivacs.....then come the mutalisks.
As he bounces around my base constantly (I've even got turreted sensor towers to get a little warning), I'm basically running back and forth trying to fight them off. Even with stim done I barely catch one usually as he pulls out. He snipes a tank and then finally hits the critical amount to take on my turrets without much problem....which makes it even worse. He finally decides to fight in a full showdown after a few small skirmishes. I've got 10-12 marines with stim/shield, 2 thror and 2 medivac at this point (and maybe 8 turrets around my base). He did out maneuver me a bit (fighting at my expo so he could run in 10-15 lings) but using the "magic box" technique and bringing in some overlords for cover my thrors are basically useless and he takes everything I have with 3-4 mutas left. I had a higher army count. They chase my few tanks around and from this point on a constant stream of lings/mutas run into the base as mutas kill the few marines that step out.
How can I keep up with the mutas without winning early reapers? As more people start to use the "magic box" to make thrors pointless I'm really struggling with a way to handle zerg without trying full bio but there are a lot of counters to it (especially baneling/infestor). Given how mobile the mutalisks are on some larger maps, I can't jump around to defend. Vikings seem pretty useless given the number required to handle them and raven missiles (lol) are a joke.
Here's a great example of the "style" of harass (http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4095292/) but it was just worse honestly given the distance between expos in Lost Temple.
Help?
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If you know he's going mutas and you've kept him to 1 base, you can mass vikings more efficiently than he can mass mutas, and vikings will win 1:1 against mutas.
That is just a suggestion though, but I am not 1200 level zerg or terran.
When they're on one base, even just going marine medivac hellion (with maybe some marauders and/or tank and/or thor thrown in) would do pretty well I think, as long as attack is done before they get expansion secured and infestors. Problem with that would be counter-attacks with mutas, but with a relitively early attack, I don't think they'd have enough mutas to stop out much important stuff when there's several turrets being repaired by SCVs.
While what you said you did was similar to my second paragraph, the main problem might have been that you got both tanks and thors. You shouldn't need both when facing mutas, you can use the extra gas for more of the other, and/or the extra minerals for more marines or hellions.
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I've read your entire post, but I don't think I can give you a good and useful answer without a replay.
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i'm going through the exact same thing right now =[.
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Thors and Marines. You seem to have the idea that your Thors shut down and fall apart the moment they come out, since Magic Box was discovered. Thors still kill Mutas cost for cost, and they are required to fly directly over top of your Thors in order to work effectively. Marines with Stim make that impossible. Turrets are also cheap, quick to build and very strong, especially with armor upgrade (seriously, get it).
Thors, protected by Marines with stim and Turrets in your main.
Don't leave your Thors alone, or they will get picked off.
Keep in mind he can't be magic boxing while Harassing, and he can't be stacked while killing thors. This means any pot shots you can get while he is stacked are super effective. Magic Boxing takes planning and positioning and really can't be just done on a whim.
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If you have like 4-6 thors, even one volley will kill quite a bit of mutas. They can't magic box while flying around your base. Also get that +2 building armor early.
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I am not diamond, but from my experience and what i have seen in replays and streams mech is a bad idea vs mutas because it has very low mobility. Bio ball moves faster (stim) and you have the benefits of burst DPS from stim which help snipe mutas in the short moments they appear to harass.
Yes Thors are good, but since they are slow you are basically comitting to a defensive play which means the zerg player can double expand, have gas from 3 bases and get that critical mass of mutas so damn fast that you won't know what hit you. (I am random player and i do mutas as zerg, and i can tell you if you keep the zerg in 1 or 2 bases his mutas will not be a significant threat for a while, especially if he keeps harassing and losing a couple at a time to your stimed marines.)
Also tower range upgrade and optionally armor if you are on 2 bases are very important.
What I do when I am human vs muta zerg is to 1) make 3-4 well placed towers near my mineral line so i can keep some mobility 2) macro up the SVCs count and deny his expansion as much as possible then 3) do an almost all in timing push with all i got before he gets a critical mass of mutas that would obsolete the missile towers. It generally burns down to my bio ball micro / control / placement vs his banelings... But overall i'd rather deal with banelings than with the nightmare that is a huge well microed muta ball.
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On September 09 2010 16:50 Xapti wrote:
If you know he's going mutas and you've kept him to 1 base, you can mass vikings more efficiently than he can mass mutas, and vikings will win 1:1 against mutas.
That is just a suggestion though, but I am not 1200 level zerg or terran.
When they're on one base, even just going marine medivac hellion (with maybe some marauders and/or tank and/or thor thrown in) would do pretty well I think, as long as attack is done before they get expansion secured and infestors. Problem with that would be counter-attacks with mutas, but with a relitively early attack, I don't think they'd have enough mutas to stop out much important stuff when there's several turrets being repaired by SCVs.
While what you said you did was similar to my second paragraph, the main problem might have been that you got both tanks and thors. You shouldn't need both when facing mutas, you can use the extra gas for more of the other, and/or the extra minerals for more marines or hellions.
vikings > mutas 1:1 ?? are you sure?? mutas have that ricochet effect, in large numbers I can't see vikings winning 1 to 1
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same problem, expanded as well as 3rd base, went to wipe his base out but he just kept spamming mutas so i made 40 turrets to defend my main and expo, still not enough and ended up losing to pure mutas
had 4 thors, massive mmm ball, few tanks.
just when i thought 40 wouldve been more than sufficient or an overkill... nope
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Actually I'm in fear of this tactics since Beta phase one. Fortunatelly most Zergs still think Mutas were bad as soon as a Thor appears, but simply mass Muta contain is so efficient and easy and they take down a thor in like a second before even the second saliva gets fired.
I think the Viking idea is really good. Just Viking/Marine will hold him off and if he doesn't switch he might lose the air fight and all overlords afterwards. Vikings are really good at defending and scale very well with armory techs.
On September 09 2010 17:20 Sotamursu wrote:
If you have like 4-6 thors, even one volley will kill quite a bit of mutas. They can't magic box while flying around your base. Also get that +2 building armor early.
Commiting on Thors against mass Mutalisk is like a statement "I will never ever ever get out of my base again". Really. Once those Thors leave the base, the Mutas fly in and have destroyed everything before the thors are even half way to the Zerg base, where they then get destroyed by other zerg forces plus the homecoming mutas, who are very strong against Thors as well once they have huge numbers.
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If you kept him on one base and then he went mutas...he should have at most 5-8 mutas that come and harass. If you turreted the mineral line then your scvs should be safe for a while. But since he is on 1 base, you should take your forces and go crush him... Force him to defend with his mutas at his base while you are ahead. If you run around your base, you're giving him time to catch up and contain you.
Obviously this is alot harder to beat if the zerg is ahead of you or is on equal bases with you because then he will have numerous ground forces in addition to his air.
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-147616.jpg)
Here is an example from ~1k Diamond, and my first encounter with the Muta/Ling harass build as shown in Day[9]'s daily of Maka vs. Check... not my finest game as it was very late. I know I botched my Reaper harass and should have left my Marauders at least to defend my natural at the beginning of his Muta harass, but still this is a very difficult strategy to beat (just as Reaper opening feels for Zerg I imagine). I also realize I should have thrown down a sensor tower to help protect my backdoor, yet I don't think it would have lived long, and upgraded range/building armor.
Terran just can't be stimming Marines every time the Mutas move from your backdoor to natural or 3rd, you need probably 4-6 Thor out at once to properly defend. Plus the Zerg just throws Speedlings wherever your force isn't...
Edit: I can't believe I'm saying it but I think ~3 Ravens with Seeker Missiles might be the best way to defend... 125 energy will make the Mutas at least back up and if they commit to an attack then 2 Seeker Missiles should put a large dent in their numbers. Thoughts?
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Well, if you're buiding turrets in time, getting loads of anti air and keeping your medivacs and tanks away from the sniping mutalisks (my most hated TvZ thing, ARGH! STAY AWAY FROM MY PRECIOUS TANKS YOU UNHOLY FUCKER OF MOTHERS!) then what's to say? You know what you're supposed to do, just do it better!
If there's one way to mutas away from your base it's pretend to push (or actually push!) 9/10 of hte time the zerg moevs his mutas back because he has to defend now or risk losing everything in a most inefficient manner.
the magic box does own thor vs mutas, but marines balance that out as no fucking way does a zerg want to go near your marine mass with mutas.
If you've got your turrets up, got a thor or two out and a good deal of marines then you are prepared. FULLY PREPARED. For mutas. Just remember the constraints of Zerg and you'll be fine. If he tries to brutalise turrets then quickly pull some scv's to repair it. Lots of SCV's. It is very hard for mutas to crunch through a massively repaired turret or two.
It is very inefficient for the zerg to just keep massing mutalisks like that. It's a transitionary thing, and if they don't transition from their muta/bling/ling combination then the terran just has to grind the zerg into the ground with repeated marine/tank/dropship/marauder pushes.
What else can you do? Well, some poeple like to get ghosts. 3 snipes = dead mutalisk. 30 snipes = 10 dead mutas! I basically never get ghosts (only viable from a 3base economy) but if you are in a 3 base position then why not? What you gonna spend all that gas on anyway? This happened to me yesterday. I didn't get ghosts vs his constant muta/blin/ling combo and I ended the game with like 1600 gas. That could have been ghosts! Holy crap!
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TBH I am not sure if their is a way to stop mass muta/ling when they get the 2nd base up and running. They pump them out too fast and they can fly around between bases so easy it will near impossible to defend everything. The only way to stop this unfortunately is to win before the spire gets up otherwise it is GG.
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few turrets and a thor or two
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I'm having this problem for a very long time and I can't actually find a replay where a terran wins against muta baneling (mass muta's + speedling + banelings). I'm a 1050 diamond terran.
People who advice to build "a few turrets and a thor or two": when muta's reach a critical mass your turrets are worth nothing. They just lose some muta's but that's no problem since they are expanding like crazy. I think there is a small timing window where you can beat the zerg (early game when his muta count is low) but it's hard. There are games where I attacked the zerg and while moving towards his base, he makes some speedlings and banelings and always destroys my army. If I attack him with whole my army then he just destroys my turrets, kill some scv's and then fly to my army that is entering his base. Somethimes I kill his second or third base, but that doesn't matter it seems.
Zergs advice me:
- to drop more units in his base: muta's always catch my medivacs. Overlords on key spots and there is no way that you reach his base.
- to harass more: the only thing that works are reapers. Helions are ALWAYS shut down by a queen at the ramp and a spinecrawler at the natural. Yes, I pressure him with hellions so he has to make more units, but most of the time it doesn't do enough damage.
I'm atm winning more then 60% of my TvT and TvP, but only 20% of my TvZ (and those wins are coming from 5rax reaper abuse...). I'm losing to 600 diamond zerg players but winning against 1000+ terrans and protosses. I made a thread and I followed every single advice given there, but nothing works. Can some topterrans help or can anyone post some nice TvZ replays where a terran doesn't win because of 5rax reaper?
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Hyrule19029 Posts
Keep defending, get 4 Marauders in a Dropship and eat his Hatch, then laugh.
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On September 09 2010 20:41 Dente wrote:
I'm having this problem for a very long time and I can't actually find a replay where a terran wins against muta baneling (mass muta's + speedling + banelings). I'm a 1050 diamond terran.
People who advice to build "a few turrets and a thor or two": when muta's reach a critical mass your turrets are worth nothing. They just lose some muta's but that's no problem since they are expanding like crazy. I think there is a small timing window where you can beat the zerg (early game when his muta count is low) but it's hard. There are games where I attacked the zerg and while moving towards his base, he makes some speedlings and banelings and always destroys my army. If I attack him with whole my army then he just destroys my turrets, kill some scv's and then fly to my army that is entering his base. Somethimes I kill his second or third base, but that doesn't matter it seems.
Zergs advice me:
- to drop more units in his base: muta's always catch my medivacs. Overlords on key spots and there is no way that you reach his base.
- to harass more: the only thing that works are reapers. Helions are ALWAYS shut down by a queen at the ramp and a spinecrawler at the natural. Yes, I pressure him with hellions so he has to make more units, but most of the time it doesn't do enough damage.
I'm atm winning more then 60% of my TvT and TvP, but only 20% of my TvZ (and those wins are coming from 5rax reaper abuse...). I'm losing to 600 diamond zerg players but winning against 1000+ terrans and protosses. I made a thread and I followed every single advice given there, but nothing works. Can some topterrans help or can anyone post some nice TvZ replays where a terran doesn't win because of 5rax reaper?
couple of turrets and a thor or two is to defend until you have enough tanks/marine/medivac to push his base, its like in BW, you defend vs mutas until your army is big enough to make a push
if he keeps harassing your base when you push him with 40 marines 2-3 thors and 10tanks he's gonna die so hard
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On September 09 2010 20:48 Pulimuli wrote:
couple of turrets and a thor or two is to defend until you have enough tanks/marine/medivac to push his base, its like in BW, you defend vs mutas until your army is big enough to make a push
if he keeps harassing your base when you push him with 40 marines 2-3 thors and 10tanks he's gonna die so hard
When you have a thor or two, enough turrets and an army that can fight the zerg, the zerg is 2 base ahead and you lose when you move out. You need marines and a good zerg will ALWAYS flank you and block your marines with his speedlings. Result: banelings destroy every marine and the muta's eat your tanks for breakfast.
Thanks to the new larvae mechanic, the zerg can just make enough units to defend in a minute. I ALWAYS lose my army when I push out, any time. I want to see replays.
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On September 09 2010 20:50 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 20:48 Pulimuli wrote:
couple of turrets and a thor or two is to defend until you have enough tanks/marine/medivac to push his base, its like in BW, you defend vs mutas until your army is big enough to make a push
if he keeps harassing your base when you push him with 40 marines 2-3 thors and 10tanks he's gonna die so hard When you have a thor or two, enough turrets and an army that can fight the zerg, the zerg is 2 base ahead and you lose when you move out. You need marines and a good zerg will ALWAYS flank you and block your marines with his speedlings. Result: banelings destroy every marine and the muta's eat your tanks for breakfast. Thanks to the new larvae mechanic, the zerg can just make enough units to defend in a minute. I ALWAYS lose my army when I push out, any time. I want to see replays.
lol dont A-move your units in 1 hotkey
micro the marines back so the tanks kill the banelings and the thor+marines kill the mutas
even if the zerg is 1 or 2 bases ahead, a well positioned terran army demolishes zerg - which is why they need to have more bases than terran
if both Zerg and Terran are on 2 bases, Zerg is gonna get steamrolled
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EPT
