I've been practicing with something that can be called a contaminate build. After getting Zerling Speed and Queen all the gas goes to get 3 overseers. After I get them, I use them to cast Contaminate on the hatchery - with 3 overseers, you can do that all the time.
Contaminate blocks additional larva from being spawn and also pauses the Spawn Larva ability and all the research at the hatchery. There's more - if the enemy Queen uses Spawn Larva on a contaminated hatchry then the Spawn Larva resets.
By doing that, I can just produce anything I want (I preffer to early produce zerlings and tech to Muta after 3 overseers) and the enemy just can't keep up. It's a real production victory
The replay below is against medium AI, as it's rather a concept, then an actual build.
I've actually been thinking about doing something like this to delay that lair tech and slowly come out ahead with spire tech, I may explore this more later.
This is incredibly interesting...i'm wondering right now if it would still work against a 2-base build (FE, or just a second hatch, if you can get it up safely before the overseers come).
Regardless, it seems that the overseers would be up before you would expect mutas in ZvZ, so it's definitely an interesting move, at least as a surprise tactic. Gonna test this out, see how it goes.
dont open a trash topic like this, if you have an idea, make it happen, analyze it, post replays and tell about details... The concept isnt that horrible but these kind of threads drive me crazy
On September 09 2010 00:07 Geo.Rion wrote: dont open a trash topic like this, if you have an idea, make it happen, analyze it, post replays and tell about details... The concept isnt that horrible but these kind of threads drive me crazy
Sorry, but not everybody have the time to do the research. And what if somebody already tried it? Then all the things I would do would just be a waste of time. Anyway, I will try to do some research and then I will just simply get back here... That's how things work, right?
On September 09 2010 00:07 Geo.Rion wrote: dont open a trash topic like this, if you have an idea, make it happen, analyze it, post replays and tell about details... The concept isnt that horrible but these kind of threads drive me crazy
In no way do i feel this is a trash topic. The OP is simply suggesting a theory that he wants to discuss.
Anyways, I think this is a very interesting concept considering zvz mostly revolves around 1 hatchery for the majority of the game. IT seems like it would work very well if you can pop out a lair and get the 3 overseers before he can get mutas. Assuming you are correct about 3 overseers being able to constantly contaminate I think this might turn into a 100% victory strat.^^
Can't watch the replay because I'm at work, but how do you protect the overseers against the double queens? Flood the base with speedlings until the queen is dead?
On September 09 2010 00:23 drats wrote: Can't watch the replay because I'm at work, but how do you protect the overseers against the double queens? Flood the base with speedlings until the queen is dead?
Well in my situation the enemy got 1 queen. Need to test it, but it's possible to stop the second queen with the first overseer. Overseers are faster then overlords, to they won't be takan down so easily. And you can always produce more Overseers and focus on zerlings.
The other thing I've noticed it's that you force your enemy to get Mutas... And you can early on plan on how to deal with that.
One thing I miss is that contaminate doesn't work on photon cannons anymore. Anyone know if fortresses and bunkers still attack? I recall a game contaminating a bunker, but couldn't tell if it was still attacking.
Fortresses attack as far as I know, so it would be safe to assume bunkers attack too, and simply cannot be laoded/unloaded/salvaged while under spell.
300 gas is it for 3 overseers? If you've both raced to Tier 2, I would assume he would put down a spire? Where would it go from there? As long as you can keep him permanently in lockdown.. But then again he can simply throw down spores after an evo cahmber?
On September 09 2010 00:57 febreze wrote: One thing I miss is that contaminate doesn't work on photon cannons anymore. Anyone know if fortresses and bunkers still attack? I recall a game contaminating a bunker, but couldn't tell if it was still attacking.
Contaminate blocks production now, so it just makes the PF unable to produce SCVS but it can still attack. Contaminate on a bunker MAY block salvage but I'm not sure about that.
On September 09 2010 00:07 Geo.Rion wrote: dont open a trash topic like this, if you have an idea, make it happen, analyze it, post replays and tell about details... The concept isnt that horrible but these kind of threads drive me crazy
Sorry, but not everybody have the time to do the research. And what if somebody already tried it? Then all the things I would do would just be a waste of time. Anyway, I will try to do some research and then I will just simply get back here... That's how things work, right?
NO, definetly not, at least it should not, but who am i kidding... Threads like this remaining open, makes me want to quit posting. You dont have time? Absolutely no problem, dont open a topic then. You have an idea want to get out of yourself? Make a blog, as the content you put in it is no way worthy of a thread.
On September 09 2010 00:07 Geo.Rion wrote: dont open a trash topic like this, if you have an idea, make it happen, analyze it, post replays and tell about details... The concept isnt that horrible but these kind of threads drive me crazy
Sorry, but not everybody have the time to do the research. And what if somebody already tried it? Then all the things I would do would just be a waste of time. Anyway, I will try to do some research and then I will just simply get back here... That's how things work, right?
NO, definetly not, at least it should not, but who am i kidding... Threads like this remaining open, makes me want to quit posting. You dont have time? Absolutely no problem, dont open a topic then. You have an idea want to get out of yourself? Make a blog, as the content you put in it is no way worthy of a thread.
Did you have a bad day? Maybe your dad didn't hug you enough . Anyways, I'm happy this was posted, as a 700+ diamond I've hit a wall in zvz and now I have something new to try. Cheers OP, I probably wouldn't have though of this .
WTF, last I remember testing, contaminate didn't do anything for hatcheries I thought (except block queen or research of course).
So you're saying now for sure that it pauses both spawn larva timer (and lets the player cast another spawn larva even though there's already one that's frozen?) and normal hatchery larva production?
Nonetheless, while much more useful vs zerg than vs terran or protoss, I think this build is not really viable, because it requires quite a bit of gas investment quite early on, at which point the opponent could very well outpower the player. Queen fire will eventually make the overseer(s) unable to go in again without dying, too.
Most high level ZvZs start out with Baneling wars, then turning into mutalisk war. If you manage to survive the baneling war with this build he will have 3 more mutas than you due to not wasting 150/300 resources, and once his mutas are out he can go overseer hunting.
I've seen a lot of these overseer theorycrafting threads for all match ups, never seen a high level replay of someone making use of it. Its just not practical.
On September 09 2010 00:32 fazir wrote: The other thing I've noticed it's that you force your enemy to get Mutas... And you can early on plan on how to deal with that.
Err, its ZvZ, Mutas are always in the game... It is simply so much better to get mutas than be on the other end...
On September 09 2010 00:07 Geo.Rion wrote: dont open a trash topic like this, if you have an idea, make it happen, analyze it, post replays and tell about details... The concept isnt that horrible but these kind of threads drive me crazy
Sorry, but not everybody have the time to do the research. And what if somebody already tried it? Then all the things I would do would just be a waste of time. Anyway, I will try to do some research and then I will just simply get back here... That's how things work, right?
NO, definetly not, at least it should not, but who am i kidding... Threads like this remaining open, makes me want to quit posting. You dont have time? Absolutely no problem, dont open a topic then. You have an idea want to get out of yourself? Make a blog, as the content you put in it is no way worthy of a thread.
Be clear about the topic and the feedback your are hoping for
This is the most open form of thread. Use a Discussion thread if you are not certain about some game mechanic and you want to get the feedback from other players. This can be about strategy and tactics, the role and viability of certain units, rock paper scissor counters, etc. The building blocks of what becomes sound SC2 strategy.
While the thread is less formal, please be clear and concise on the topic you want to discuss about, and open with your own opinion. Don’t make the topic too broad.
This is the perfect way to post a strategy you came up with that is not quite ready to be turned into a guide (See below). Post your strategy and point out the areas where you are not sure about it’s validity and ask for feedback.
Get acquainted with the guidelines before you attempt to play god again, Mister Snob.
On topic, OP's idea is pretty good. I had no idea that Contaminate resets Spawn Larvae and also halts production of larvae as well. This would actually be really effective in ZvZ. Muta/ling/bling's gonna turn into Muta/Overseer, haha. Basically, whoever produces more will simply win.
You really gotta kill the first queen for this to have a prayer of happening. Overseers don't last forever. If indeed contaminate blocks larva creation AND inject larva's mechanic, then I'd just expand to use the resources I can't use yet. My army on the ground actually has gas spent on units that are more powerful that your mostly-zergling army so you have no ability to deny my expansions.
I consider this theorycrafting better discussed with a practice partner as you try it against regular ZvZ builds like speedling/baneling and roach openings. Then you get it down to a phantom timing where you can stop his army cold and he can't' rebuild fast enough or whatever. Assuming this is accomplished, you upload a couple proof-of-concept replays showing the refinements you've put on there after losing to your partner many, many times. Then you get some recognition for making a thread with substance--good replays!!--instead of another thought experiment of what could be.
Better yet, why not just use additional gas for blings or upgrades and overwhelm him, put mutas aside. If your good at this you could force him to go hydras or lings himself since he will most likely only have 1 queen. Just defend the blings well and start massing your ling army while larva blocking him. Sounds legit? Can't wait to try it out.
I just had a zvz and tried contaminating the hatch, works pretty nice actually. I wouldnt consider getting 3 overseers tho :s. Still, makes for a nice trick to halt production. Too nice as a matter of fact...
On September 09 2010 17:37 Neuuubeh wrote: I just had a zvz and tried contaminating the hatch, works pretty nice actually. I wouldnt consider getting 3 overseers tho :s. Still, makes for a nice trick to halt production. Too nice as a matter of fact...
PS. Blings arent all that hot you know...
Eh, at top 30 diamond thats all I get haha. Sorry. Maybe things change in the higher ranks.
Well dunno, Im defo lower than that, hovering at around 650ish (had a huuuuuuge loss streak when I got into diamond lolol :D). I mean blings are nice and stuff, I like the unit myself. However if you see them coming, its so easy to make a wall with a few evos or something and drop 2-3 spines around the ramps/chokes. In fact, I started using pool and other buildings to wall off the mineral line a bit, which paired with some static defense seems to work wonders. Again, this is somewhat early game
Then again, as I said, im a lowbie naab :D. I kinda prefer blings for mass ling and especially hydra annihilation
The biggest problem i see with this is actually getting to T2 and having 300 gas spare for this kind of shenanigans. In a standard ling/bling fight game this is not exactly easy without being far behind due to alot of static defense (and then your opponent just expands). furthermore, i always thought that contaminate doesnt block spawn larvae timer, but maybe i was wrong on that.
On September 09 2010 17:49 DarKFoRcE wrote: The biggest problem i see with this is actually getting to T2 and having 300 gas spare for this kind of shenanigans. In a standard ling/bling fight game this is not exactly easy without being far behind due to alot of static defense (and then your opponent just expands). furthermore, i always thought that contaminate doesnt block spawn larvae timer, but maybe i was wrong on that.
Just tried it, it blocks natural larva production from the hatchery, as well as spawn larva. Didnt know that myself
It's a good thought, but I just don't see this working in most games on ladder. Maybe in a game where both zergs decide to FE and macro up. 99% of my ZvZ ladder games, the enemy goes speedling/baneling. It's way too much early pressure.
On September 09 2010 00:07 Geo.Rion wrote: dont open a trash topic like this, if you have an idea, make it happen, analyze it, post replays and tell about details... The concept isnt that horrible but these kind of threads drive me crazy
Sorry, but not everybody have the time to do the research. And what if somebody already tried it? Then all the things I would do would just be a waste of time. Anyway, I will try to do some research and then I will just simply get back here... That's how things work, right?
NO, definetly not, at least it should not, but who am i kidding... Threads like this remaining open, makes me want to quit posting. You dont have time? Absolutely no problem, dont open a topic then. You have an idea want to get out of yourself? Make a blog, as the content you put in it is no way worthy of a thread.
I'm surprised someone thats been around as long as you have in the community will still post garbage bashing comments unrelated to the topic. If you think this thread is a waste a time, why be so hypocritical and spam on the thread? Id think maybe you'd figure out how teamliquid works by now. New builds and Ideas created never come out polished from its first iteration. Just look at the 5 RR build, it wasn't perfect when Fistdantilus first posted it up, but now it has more depth and transitions further optimizing the original build.
Anyways like someone said before, this thread comes as a discussion so heres my two cents on it:
This 3 overseer contaminate strategy was actually used by Argos Zenith in a zvz game to stop larvae production:
Although I'm not sure the viability in creating a build with the 3 overseer being the ultimate goal, I do see this strategy working in a zvz when the game is mirrored and progresses into lair tech. That is, zvz is very erratic as the balance of favor tips with 1 small mistake, and often goes back and forth that requires quick counters between banelings, spines and roaches so any planned build up to lair tech is pretty much useless.
Therefore, instead of this becoming a straight up build I see this tactic as an option in the case that your zvz game progress to lair tech and you guys continue to mirror each other, this might be the split tactic where he goes mutas and you go 3 overseer roach and/or zergling push
On September 09 2010 17:49 Neuuubeh wrote: Well dunno, Im defo lower than that, hovering at around 650ish (had a huuuuuuge loss streak when I got into diamond lolol :D). I mean blings are nice and stuff, I like the unit myself. However if you see them coming, its so easy to make a wall with a few evos or something and drop 2-3 spines around the ramps/chokes. In fact, I started using pool and other buildings to wall off the mineral line a bit, which paired with some static defense seems to work wonders. Again, this is somewhat early game
Then again, as I said, im a lowbie naab :D. I kinda prefer blings for mass ling and especially hydra annihilation
I would say this strat is a win against a no bling build, due to massive amounts of lings then pumping drones/expanding when you start cycling the contaminates... pretty much a win if it does completely eliminate the ability to spawn ANY larva, although I find it hard to believe that they don't even produce a larva every 10 or so seconds.
I would say this strat is a win against a no bling build, due to massive amounts of lings then pumping drones/expanding when you start cycling the contaminates... pretty much a win if it does completely eliminate the ability to spawn ANY larva, although I find it hard to believe that they don't even produce a larva every 10 or so seconds.[/QUOTE]
Try it out, I first did it in the unit tester, then tried it on a ladder game. Again, I dont think this will be game breaking unless you invest in 3 overseers and catch him by surprise, but still, another harrassment trick up the sleeve . Which can't be a bad thing, but as I mentioned, I do think this might be toooooo good to be in the game currently. One unit halting any larva (essentially unit) production for 30 secs... cant be right
If my hatch got contaminated two times in a row, i'd put up spore crawlers immediately. I'd still be behind a bit, but three overseers aren't cheap either.
its such a large investment early game that I find it hard to comprehend its effectiveness.
You would need double gas, you wouldn't get banelings or roaches and no upgrades. If your opponent moves out with a roach push or a baneling opening would destroy this build also mid game into late game I cant see the investment being worth it since most mid games either have mutas or hydras.
in zvp and zvt however contaminate is AMAZING for delaying death pushes with collosus or thors and even early voids if you do a standard opening.
NO, definetly not, at least it should not, but who am i kidding... Threads like this remaining open, makes me want to quit posting. You dont have time? Absolutely no problem, dont open a topic then. You have an idea want to get out of yourself? Make a blog, as the content you put in it is no way worthy of a thread.
Please do, your posts are the least usefu on this thread.
As for the topic, seems like a great idea and I remember seeing something like this on a replay Crota cast ... http://www.youtube.com/user/BlizShouter#p/u/13/HveAkF9Npnw Argos vs Carrain, Argos 6 pools and follows up with that I believe to get back in the game.
It is actually great. You stop opposing production meaning that even if he got his lair up, he can't get many mutas for a little longer, so you should be ahead.
Depending on the situation it can either lock his lair down (if it is late) or stop production from it. Overseers morph in pretty fast and can be right next to his base already (at least 1 or 2 overlords should be around there) so it doesn't take much to get in there before his lair is finished (and you will almost always make it before the spire finishes).
I've had thoughts about using Overseers to perma-freeze a Hatchery for a while. The problem is that to really be effective, you need probably 3+, as well as Pneumatized Carapace. So that's 250/400 investment, and assumes you don't lose any Overseers. It also will tax your macro, because it adds in another timer of 30s, on top of your 40s Spawn Larva and 15s Creep Tumor timers.
That being said, maybe if you somehow adapt a 'quick' Lair into a ZvZ build without dying right off, you can start to shut down your opponent completely. Incredibly effective if you manage to incorporate a push.
I just don't see it happening, though. Perhaps if Overseers were 50/50, it'd be more viable.
I like the concept too, I just don't think its practical.
You can't get overseers faster than player Z can bring Blings, Slings, Roaches. Most ZvZ from that point evolves into Muta war, as others have said. Essentially, you leave yourself open to normal ZvZ attacks if you try to quick tech T2. Essentially, you'd only pull this off at a normal T2 time, which is probably around the same time as your opponent. Then, you'd have to time the overseers to beat his spire and prevent Muta production, hope he doesn't have multiple queens, and is flustered enough to not just lay down another hatch.
To me, while it seems like an underused harass tool, to rely on it as a 'strategy' is weak since its countered pretty easily via normal Z production. I think your better served only making one overseer and stopping production occasionally (a harassment tool) vs. investing 300gas right when you both hit T2 on something that isn't mutas or hydras.
I think this build could be effective. I already tried out contaminate in the unit testing map, and figured out it takes about 4 overseers to keep something permanently contaminated. The overseer gets close to 18 energy back throughout the life of the contaminate spell. 3 seems to work perfectly fine in a real game though if you have a bit of surplus energy before you contaminate.
I practiced 2 games with my ~1000k protoss buddy. He doesn't play zerg, but it was the only person to practice with since no one ever replies in #tlpickup. I suppose it works somewhat, but I can't really gauge how well since I won basically because I am better at ZvZ. He didn't exactly play an orthodox zerg build either since he is a protoss player. I do think it has potential though and would like to flesh it out more. If anyone would like to practice this strat send me a PM. I'm ~1000 random. Replays below.
You actually need at least 5 overseers to permanently shut down a hatchery. I think four can technically keep a building locked down forever, but you have to cast corruption the instant the previous corruption wears off. If you consistently cast slightly early with four, eventually the corruption cycle will time out before your overseers have regenerated enough mana to cast again. If you cast even a split second late, then the building you're trying to contaminate will obviously get a split second of production in. Normally a split second of production wouldn't matter very much, but if a hatchery sits uncontaminated for any time at all a larva will spawn. If that larva is morphed into either a mutalisk or a hydralisk, your overseers will not be able to survive much longer unless they retreat.
I've been playing around with a Roach opening followed by a rush to 3 Overseers at the ladder, rating around 1200-1300.
The build is rather useless vs a 15 Hatch opening, and I think you're in a rather uncomfortable situation vs 1 Hatch Muta rush too - unless he opened Banelings first. However, vs everything else it's pretty sweet.
After losing twice to the Muta rush I decided to change my follow up. The new one is undefeated so far, but it's rather gimmicky so it won't hold in the long run. You could probably transition straight into a common Hydra/Infestor 2 base build on some maps though.
Contamine opens up a rather huge timing window vs some builds, where you can simply kill them straight off. Other times it prevents Drone production in situations where both players would prefer to just sit still and macro up. It also provides perfect intellligence. The huge downside is that you have to give up map control vs Mutalisk builds and your own economy isn't the greatest either.
Does it stop building from morphing? Say a spire being build. Lets say after some opening battles and you both get to lair at about the same time and plant down spire at about same time. While spire is being built, get 2 overseers to contaminate the morphing spire and the lair. The problem is that overseer doesn't have enough energy right way. The timing might not be fast enough?
So there is a bug (or maybe intended) use with contaminate, i had my hatch contaminated today with spawn larva 50% done, and when the contaminate ended, my spawn larva was at 0% and had to start over, and another time he contaminated me just as the timer ended but in that window before the larva appear, and i got those larva stolen from me, they never spawned, even after it ended.
On September 15 2010 15:45 zomgtossrush wrote: This should be entitlted "Contaminate forces restart on spawning larvae." because thats all you have proven.
Maybe for a mid-late game tactic. But I am not sure how i can survive any god bling play having 0 roaches and 0 mutas untill Lair +300 gas.
In my replay I got 2 gas early but once I had 300 gas for the overseers I put them all back on minerals and built some spine crawlers.
For this to be effective you're going to need to take the time that their production is screwed to gain some huge, huge advantage over them. The most obvious solution is Zergling spam, but that can be weak to a small number of Banelings. Roaches work in a similar vein, but are more expensive and tech-dependent. You don't have to try and end the game and instead expand once or even twice, but you'll still have to defend that against your opponent's superior army (since you've been focusing on those Overseers). Tech would work similarly, but that would again be tougher because of the 300 sunk in the Overseers. This looks like it has potential in a very precise timing push, but outside of that, not much..
On September 15 2010 15:45 zomgtossrush wrote: This should be entitlted "Contaminate forces restart on spawning larvae." because thats all you have proven.
Maybe for a mid-late game tactic. But I am not sure how i can survive any god bling play having 0 roaches and 0 mutas untill Lair +300 gas.
In my replay I got 2 gas early but once I had 300 gas for the overseers I put them all back on minerals and built some spine crawlers.
This is how I read your replay.
I get to 2 gas early, so i have hardly any lings to defend eary ling pressure, then after i got 300 gas, i waste more resources not getting lings or blings, then i put drones on minerals, since i dont have any blings or roaches, and then get spine crawlers, to defend the 2 drones i have left from the opponents lings, blings and roaches.
I am not trying to troll or anything, but you cant suggest a theory and have people take you seriously when you play a medium AI. Try this vs a few diamond level z's and see how easy it is to mine 300 gas without getting roflstomped, then post THOSE replays.
Doesn't contaminate 'pause' a making building? Also if you contaminate a tech building (like a spire), doesn't that mean you can't produce units allowed by it(mutas)? That could also get a good edge in a ling/bling/muta mirror.
I really don't see how you can use up that 300 gas and not die. So you spent gas on, zerglings speed, lair, and 3 overseers. You have 6 drones in gas, so unless you are pumping drones, you won't have enough minerals. How can you defend banelings with this build?
The only major problem with this is nothing really prevents your opponent from doing it back to you. It is not like he's going to be able to use his resources for anything else.
My understand is that it does not reset spawn larva timer if you revomit on the hatchery. What happens is the larva 'spawns' but is stuck in the hatchery due to contaminate. This lets the queen revomit and create 4 more larva that are stuck in the hatchery. When contaminate ends all of the larva explode out of the hatchery, but maybe the OP has tested it more thoroughly than I have.
The time when I'd use this really is when your opponent goes roaches. You can go overseer+eco->roaches to abuse his lack of AA.
The big problem I see here is that you're investing 300/300 for 3 overseers in hopes of shutting down a hatchery. Building a second hatchery costs 350/0. Even if you were able to perfectly shut down a hatchery (you won't be able to for long), your opponent can easily neutralize your tactic by making an extra hatchery. After AA comes online, the harass will be less effective, and your left with 3 expensive flying paperweights and he has an extra hatchery.
In the best case scenario, you're spending 300/300 to disrupt his production for a minute and make him spend 350 minerals, but his investment has greater utility throughout the game. Even in the best-case scenario, I think you're on the losing end of the trade unless you can figure out a way to parlay the minute of disrupted production into something more meaningful (like a quick win or a significant economy lead). With so much gas invested into the harassment, I doubt it will work out tho.
On September 15 2010 15:45 zomgtossrush wrote: This should be entitlted "Contaminate forces restart on spawning larvae." because thats all you have proven.
Maybe for a mid-late game tactic. But I am not sure how i can survive any god bling play having 0 roaches and 0 mutas untill Lair +300 gas.
In my replay I got 2 gas early but once I had 300 gas for the overseers I put them all back on minerals and built some spine crawlers.
This is how I read your replay.
I get to 2 gas early, so i have hardly any lings to defend eary ling pressure, then after i got 300 gas, i waste more resources not getting lings or blings, then i put drones on minerals, since i dont have any blings or roaches, and then get spine crawlers, to defend the 2 drones i have left from the opponents lings, blings and roaches.
I am not trying to troll or anything, but you cant suggest a theory and have people take you seriously when you play a medium AI. Try this vs a few diamond level z's and see how easy it is to mine 300 gas without getting roflstomped, then post THOSE replays.
I am not the original poster and you did not see my replay. See the replay submitted under my name.
if you can keep your opponents queens down, this will work, but if you can keep your opponents queen down, this is pointless. very limited situational uses for this in a zvz imo.
On September 09 2010 00:32 fazir wrote: The other thing I've noticed it's that you force your enemy to get Mutas... And you can early on plan on how to deal with that.
Err, its ZvZ, Mutas are always in the game... It is simply so much better to get mutas than be on the other end...
This is what I thought until two infestors killed my 12 mutas.
the zergs dependence on a single building for all tech is a serious weakness. If the player does not already have either lair or a second hatch out when you start this, they are probably in serious trouble.
I tried this actually, the main problem is if theyve expanded 2 hatch/2 queen gives an excess of larvae usually since drone count is usually fairly low since the bling/ling war is so deadly. So they have slightly hindered production, but still enough.
However if theyre still on one base...you can completely stop production until they decide to make a new hatchery, and then win with basically any unit combo.
Unfortunately this requires: they have on hatch only not much aa (2 queens is probably the most you could handle-any spores, hydras or mutas and it would be impossible) the game lasted until tier 2, and you had 400 gas for overseers (500 if speed)
I just played a zvz with this, though my build order was a little bit different. I didnt get zergling speed because what I had mind in the beginning was to get some lings, but carry a general weight on roaches and go to spire and mutas. (I dislike banelings, and I knew my opponent was going to get them)
Anyway based on the scout information I noticed I had some little more time as my opponent was overdroning, thus I gave this idea a go.
Please note that I am not a good player, especially not a good zerg because I started out as terran and switched my race to zerg because of imbalance discussions and to see if there really was a problem with zerg (and I dislike the idea of my opponents having an idea like they lost because my race was bugged) so even though I could create a kind of three-overseer-hatchery-lockdown, I am not entirely sure this was the reason I won the game. I am trying to add the replay, so comments are welcome.
In my opinion, this is definately worth trying, at least for the fact that it was fun and a welcomed difference in ZvZ for me.
On September 09 2010 00:07 Geo.Rion wrote: dont open a trash topic like this, if you have an idea, make it happen, analyze it, post replays and tell about details... The concept isnt that horrible but these kind of threads drive me crazy
Sorry, but not everybody have the time to do the research. And what if somebody already tried it? Then all the things I would do would just be a waste of time. Anyway, I will try to do some research and then I will just simply get back here... That's how things work, right?
NO, definetly not, at least it should not, but who am i kidding... Threads like this remaining open, makes me want to quit posting. You dont have time? Absolutely no problem, dont open a topic then. You have an idea want to get out of yourself? Make a blog, as the content you put in it is no way worthy of a thread.
Be clear about the topic and the feedback your are hoping for
This is the most open form of thread. Use a Discussion thread if you are not certain about some game mechanic and you want to get the feedback from other players. This can be about strategy and tactics, the role and viability of certain units, rock paper scissor counters, etc. The building blocks of what becomes sound SC2 strategy.
While the thread is less formal, please be clear and concise on the topic you want to discuss about, and open with your own opinion. Don’t make the topic too broad.
This is the perfect way to post a strategy you came up with that is not quite ready to be turned into a guide (See below). Post your strategy and point out the areas where you are not sure about it’s validity and ask for feedback.
Get acquainted with the guidelines before you attempt to play god again, Mister Snob.
On topic, OP's idea is pretty good. I had no idea that Contaminate resets Spawn Larvae and also halts production of larvae as well. This would actually be really effective in ZvZ. Muta/ling/bling's gonna turn into Muta/Overseer, haha. Basically, whoever produces more will simply win.
I'd rather just use 2 banelings and kill all of his larva in 1 shot
On October 28 2010 21:48 fazir wrote: Just a fun fact - oGsZenio just used contaminate/roches build against Idra in GSL Ro16 and won, maybe there is a future for this build :D
Yeah, it's good on a map like DT because there's so much space of nothing behind hatcheries over there. Although I feel that idra should've went infestation pit instead of hydra den, and also throw down at least one spore crawler.
In addition to DQ being friendly to air attacks, I'd say the contaminate build suited it because it's hard for zerg to fast expand, meaning they are likely to be on one hatch. Idra was lucky in this case that he'd decided to go for the rear expansion quickly, as it actually made the contaminate into roach push less effective. Gave him a good chance against it, but he couldn't pull it off.
I saw this topic a while ago, and thought : hmmm good idea. And then I read the comments, there were so much flaming about this, and treated the OP like shit. If I were the author of this thread, I'd be so happy right now, knowing my strat was used (GSL spoiler)+ Show Spoiler +
to kick Idra out of the GSL Ro16
Great concept, and definetely a great build. This game was really entertaining to watch. You, Sir, were a pionneer.
On October 28 2010 21:48 fazir wrote: Just a fun fact - oGsZenio just used contaminate/roches build against Idra in GSL Ro16 and won, maybe there is a future for this build :D
On September 16 2010 03:08 Fatalll wrote: if you can keep your opponents queens down, this will work, but if you can keep your opponents queen down, this is pointless. very limited situational uses for this in a zvz imo.
It takes 25 shots (with 0 regen and no upgrades) for a queen to kill an overseer.
Thats 23.45 game seconds to kill the overseer, queens are less of an issue than you think. If you do hit and run sweeps, he'll probably get ~10 hits off if he has 2 queens.
Now if they have anything more than 2 queens, your boned, unless you make it a suicide run.
Yeah that's accurate Cow. When I used to do this way back when a single queen couldn't kill an overseer.
Still the weakness should be simply putting down a spore crawler, or maybe 2, and maybe some other stuff in there to be able to hold off if he pushes with roaches (on DQ my thought would be a spine crawler or 2. His investment in overseers isn't trivial. Not overreacting is also important. It'll be interesting to see the games.
TBH, the GSL match today made it seem almost overpowered when used against Hatch/Lair/Hive. I mean, Contaminate is always useful, but Zerg is the only race that is so completely reliant on one building. If you contaminate any given Toss or Terran building you delay one upgrade or unit, which if its a worker can somewhat delay their economy...if you contaminate a hatch, you absolutely cripple your opponent.
I have to commend the OP for thinking of this, as I have a feeling it could really change the ZvZ matchup going forward.
BronzeLeagueDude here I was searching to see if anybody had tried this before. Good to see it has been rejected by people who never even tried it, and it actually worked competitively. Thought I was on to something new, but nope.
Ret also did this several days ago in some event or other, right? I'm not just making that up, am I? (Not saying Zenio got it from him or anything dumb like that.)
On October 29 2010 00:15 awesomoecalypse wrote: TBH, the GSL match today made it seem almost overpowered when used against Hatch/Lair/Hive.(...)
Got to disagree here, if Idra had had his roaches in proper position at the ramp he would have been in great position. Don't get me wrong, it definitely is viable but from that single game it certainly did not look overpowered to me.
Wow, that Zenio vs Idra game blew my mind. I didn't like seeing the ling/bling builds of the previous ZvZ games and I was so happy to see such innovative ZvZ play.
When I clicked on this thread, I thought it was an analysis of the build in the game. When I saw the date of the OP, I was stunned. Congrats to the OP of thinking of an innovative strat!
Figured I would post here rather than make a new thread.
I think this would work best on a map that u could block with 2 queens.
The idea is to get to lair faster than him, and have 3+ over lords ready to be changed right as lair finishes.
The early queens (the defender's advantage+queen's measly dps+rush time+transfuse)
If you can stop him getting lair you can one base to 4-6 mutas control the entire map(where he doesn't have a hatch already) and just out expand him. If you are rushing to lair, with decent scouting u can block a roach bust, but zerlings and banelings are already stopped by having 3 queens. Well if I saw 3 queens i'd just expand. Perhaps with more micro u'd only need 2 queens.
With some proper practice and thinking I bet we could figure out a way of making this work, just have to make this 'smooth'. Probably would only work on small ramp maps where u can turtle a bit.
EPT
. Anyways, I'm happy this was posted, as a 700+ diamond I've hit a wall in zvz and now I have something new to try. Cheers OP, I probably wouldn't have though of this 
.
. Which can't be a bad thing, but as I mentioned, I do think this might be toooooo good to be in the game currently. One unit halting any larva (essentially unit) production for 30 secs... cant be right
