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peon.power
Germany43 Posts
To underline my argument i just tested 24 +1 Attack Lings with speed against 4 Zealots and 1 Colossus with range upgrade. 8 Lings survived. Things get worse as the colossi stack up and you dont want to engage him near high grounds at all, but i guess till he has 2-4 colossi of one base you shouldve a way better eco, lairtech units and +1 carapace coming (You really dont want to loose the upgrade battle in PvZ) | ||
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Roconar
United States30 Posts
 But the point is that the timings for colosi and ultras are nowhere close, so it seems like a reasonable counter. If you look at more recent HuK games, he almost always gets an early robo for scouting purposes and goes from there. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
+1 attack is def a huge help against the 1armor P units but you never want to fall behind on armor upgrades. since the build doesnt need much gas at all for the majority of the game couldnt you start a 2nd evo pretty soon like when the lair started morphing? | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On September 09 2010 03:37 Roconar wrote: @ MrBitter: I agree with most of your points, but I think you underestimate a bit just how early a toss can get collosi. (Sandbox it if you like ... the fastest you can get one + about 4 zealots is ca. 6:40. If you do something more reasonable and time the collosus to pop @8:30, you can have a good econ with a sentry, some stalkers and lots of zealots for support.) In any case, why wouldn't the toss do some sort of fast colossus build once he scouts an expansion+evo chamber? So, he starts 1-2 extra gates after the cybercore and if he sees that you will go with lots of zerglings he builds a robo. Btw, you save two crono boosts to build them faster. Care to explain how a toss is going to reliably get a scout in at that stage of the game? | ||
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phfantunes
Brazil170 Posts
So, while I really do like the idea behind this strategy, I don't think it's solid enough and works most of the time because people have never seem it. As they adapt and get only Zealots, Protoss will have the upper hand, since the efectiveness of Zealots against Zerglings increases as their numbers grow. Found the game: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-147423.jpg) | ||
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Roconar
United States30 Posts
Edit: Dimaga killed off a zealot push early but lost to dark templars. | ||
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
 Interestingly, he didn't take his natural until he made a LOT of zerglings...possibly a response to the chronod zealots and the wide open nat? | ||
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
On September 09 2010 04:14 phfantunes wrote: As they adapt and get only Zealots, Protoss will have the upper hand, since the efectiveness of Zealots against Zerglings increases as their numbers grow. Fortunately for the zerg, the effectiveness of banelings grows as zealot numbers grow as well. | ||
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phfantunes
Brazil170 Posts
On September 09 2010 04:57 Johnny_Vegas wrote: Fortunately for the zerg, the effectiveness of banelings grows as zealot numbers grow as well. Maybe, but to kill 1 Zealot you need 5 Banelings, which translates as 125/125. I'm guessing here, but the splash radius of the explosion could hit maybe 4-5 Zealots? I'm not so sure that's a good trade-off. I'd also consider that this build uses almost no gas at all, so Banelings are kind of off and would delay your Ultras by a lot. You do make a valid point, but I overall just hate Banelings vs P. If a tech switch in reaction to mass Zealots is necessary, I'd prefer going Roaches. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 09 2010 05:05 phfantunes wrote: Maybe, but to kill 1 Zealot you need 5 Banelings, which translates as 125/125. I'm guessing here, but the splash radius of the explosion could hit maybe 4-5 Zealots? I'm not so sure that's a good trade-off. I'd also consider that this build uses almost no gas at all, so Banelings are kind of off and would delay your Ultras by a lot. You do make a valid point, but I overall just hate Banelings vs P. If a tech switch in reaction to mass Zealots is necessary, I'd prefer going Roaches. But sentries can completely screw roaches if it's mass sentry/zealot. Banelings good vs light means they'd counter both sentries and zealots, and yes it's fairly worth it as the splash allows you to just run over the enemy and completely turns around the "more zealots more effective" mentality. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
With that said, I'm a bit disappointed after reading thru and checking the replays. Why? Well... this strat is more focused to help Zerg against builds we were already strong against, rather than addressing the current builds that are difficult. Zerg has always been able to tear up Stalker-based play - lings are so cheap and allows you to spend the extra gas on teching. The primary issue that I (and the Zerg players that I know) have been struggling with, is 2-gate Zealot pressure in to 4-gate. Especially since Blizz announced the patch notes with the Zealot changes - it's like all the Protoss are taking advantage of them before the nerf comes thru. This strat sadly leaves us vulnerable to this common strategy. I know I know... just transition to Roaches. But there are a few problems with that. Sure Roaches will work if they do 2gate in to early aggression, but it will usually delay or prevent the early expansion, which is where Zerg really gets screwed. To make it a bit worse, Protoss are not forced in to that aggression. I've found they send a small skirmish to harass ur expand, and once thats done and they force Roaches, they see that you went Roaches and simply delay the actual push. At this point, your screwed as they transition in to 4-gate pressure and ur stuck w/ an economy that's far behind. You may have been able to defend that push they set up at that time, but since they delayed it your screwed. It sucks because this problem in early game is obvious if you check the graphs at the end of the game. If your resource collection graph is anywhere near to theirs your unit graph will be far behind, if your army graph is on par with theirs your resource collection graph will be behind, which leads to your army graph declining as the game goes longer. Now I know in a week or so Blizz is going to be releasing the patch that will weaken the Protoss early game, but I don't think that's an acceptable reason to stop trying to figure out how to counteract it now. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to adjust a similar build to counteract 2gate in to 4gate Zealot/sentry pressure, rather than Stalker pressure? | ||
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maniac1122
United States111 Posts
This will be my standard once i can practice it more :D | ||
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archon256
United States363 Posts
Not sure if it's the build itself or just my poor macro skills showing, but it seems to be a lot more apparent for this build than the usual Roach-Hydra/Muta-ling builds. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On September 09 2010 07:44 archon256 wrote: I'm a low diamond player, and I just want to say that this build is pretty taxing macro-wise. I've lost quite a few games early because I didn't spawn larva in time and didn't have enough larvae to spam Zerglings (which eat up larvae like anybody's business), or I end up supply blocking myself. Not sure if it's the build itself or just my poor macro skills showing, but it seems to be a lot more apparent for this build than the usual Roach-Hydra/Muta-ling builds. Yeah it's pretty unforgiving if you can't keep up with the macro, but maybe try adding another hatchery in your main or nat since you won't really be able to spend all your minerals if you aren't hitting your injects regularly. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 09 2010 07:44 archon256 wrote: I'm a low diamond player, and I just want to say that this build is pretty taxing macro-wise. I've lost quite a few games early because I didn't spawn larva in time and didn't have enough larvae to spam Zerglings (which eat up larvae like anybody's business), or I end up supply blocking myself. Not sure if it's the build itself or just my poor macro skills showing, but it seems to be a lot more apparent for this build than the usual Roach-Hydra/Muta-ling builds. If you have this much trouble keeping up with your queens and ovies so early in the game, you really need to just go spend some time in a build order tester, and iron that out. Lings are fragile, so if you end up being stuck with 25 instead of 50, you're going to find that the build loses all viability. However, you shouldn't let your weak macro be an excuse to use different play styles. Force yourself to use builds that are hard to execute. That way, after you've perfected those builds, you'll find that you're overall mechanics have gotten better too. Now, side-step: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3386 This BO vs. a zealot/archon/sentry/stalker push. It also gets bonus points for the toss being so darn angry at the end. He pushes around 8:30 with 5 zeals, an archon, 3 stalkers, 2 sentries, and, of course, reinforcements to follow. This push was not hard to stop at all. I had 48 lings when he left his base, and, including my reinforcements, 41 after cleaning up his push. (I lost about 20 in the fight, but replacing lings is ezmode.) Now if toss pushes with purely zeal archon, it might be a little scarier. 12 zlots, 2-3 archons... Kind of reminiscent of some BW PvZ timing pushes... That said, that kind of push would come later, would be easy to scout (no anti air) and could probably be easily squashed by adding 3-5 spines. And one more side-step: I'm going to start experimenting with an in-base hatch before lair. I'm finding that I always have excess minerals that DO get used up eventually, but that would probably be better served by being turned into a hatch as soon as its available. Also gives me a place to dump energy, as my injects are faaar from perfect. (lol 100+ energy at the end of ^^ that replay.) | ||
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Karthane
United States1183 Posts
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
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eth3n
718 Posts
-edit also this makes me want them to remove ram via patch now, annoying to only be able to attack one building at a time (60 with splash v 75, what were they thinking?) | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 09 2010 11:55 eth3n wrote: How early do you suggest 2nd evo chamber? ASAP during drone pump? -edit also this makes me want them to remove ram via patch now, annoying to only be able to attack one building at a time I try to line my 2nd evo chamber up with my 2nd round of upgrades... usually sometime around Lair finishing. So I'll get +1, lots and lots of lings, lair, and then +2, +1 at the same time. | ||
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