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[D] ZvP - Dimaga Style - Page 8

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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leser
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia239 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 23:43:10
September 10 2010 23:42 GMT
#141
I just make 3-4 queens every time vs a toss, and add maybe 2 more if I scout a stargate. It will deflect most cheesy void ray rushes and leave you in a good position to continue to win the game. I usually don't even go for hive when I defend the initial 2-3-4 void rays, I just pump 20 hydras and push out with them and the lings and win since the void rays usually mean there isn't much of a ground army with void rays being as expensive as they are.
lulz
fantomex
Profile Joined June 2009
United States313 Posts
September 11 2010 00:44 GMT
#142
One thing I don't understand about this and other builds like it is it seems like you're sacrificing a lot of minerals/timing early only to pull drones off gas later. If you aren't going to get speed until after the expansion, why not build refinery later or only put 1 drone on it.
Replay or GTFO
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-11 00:51:06
September 11 2010 00:48 GMT
#143
On September 11 2010 09:44 fantomex wrote:
One thing I don't understand about this and other builds like it is it seems like you're sacrificing a lot of minerals/timing early only to pull drones off gas later. If you aren't going to get speed until after the expansion, why not build refinery later or only put 1 drone on it.

What? It's a regular 14/14 with speed as soon as you have 100 gas.

On September 11 2010 08:35 Vaporized wrote:
what do you guys do if you scout starports? this is the one drawback. at my level (im like 5th in my plat division) void rays are fairly common (1 in 3 or 4 toss i play goes vr). What is the correct response? especially if i was trying to do this ling heavy dimaga build. if i want to tech switch to air i think mutas are better against vr then corrupter right?

One problem i have is not scouting this early enough. but sometimes i do scout it in what seems like a reasonable amount of time and i still get crushed.

edit: one thing i could do is send my lings to his base when i see vr's coming.

If you haven't scouted the stargates but just want to be relatively safe vs them, just get a 3rd/4th queen when you can afford it. If you're 100% sure it's 2stargates just throw down a hydra den and play from there.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
fantomex
Profile Joined June 2009
United States313 Posts
September 11 2010 00:49 GMT
#144
I guess I misread the OP it looked like expansion followed by speed.
Replay or GTFO
Malminos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States321 Posts
September 11 2010 00:57 GMT
#145
cool! i'll have to try this out.
"To dream of because become happiness "
sooch
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada299 Posts
September 11 2010 01:00 GMT
#146
On September 11 2010 09:48 sixghost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 09:44 fantomex wrote:
One thing I don't understand about this and other builds like it is it seems like you're sacrificing a lot of minerals/timing early only to pull drones off gas later. If you aren't going to get speed until after the expansion, why not build refinery later or only put 1 drone on it.

What? It's a regular 14/14 with speed as soon as you have 100 gas.

Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 08:35 Vaporized wrote:
what do you guys do if you scout starports? this is the one drawback. at my level (im like 5th in my plat division) void rays are fairly common (1 in 3 or 4 toss i play goes vr). What is the correct response? especially if i was trying to do this ling heavy dimaga build. if i want to tech switch to air i think mutas are better against vr then corrupter right?

One problem i have is not scouting this early enough. but sometimes i do scout it in what seems like a reasonable amount of time and i still get crushed.

edit: one thing i could do is send my lings to his base when i see vr's coming.

If you haven't scouted the stargates but just want to be relatively safe vs them, just get a 3rd/4th queen when you can afford it. If you're 100% sure it's 2stargates just throw down a hydra den and play from there.


I just want to comment that having a hydra den and ranged upgrades (eventually) on the way is really good when you're planning on ultras, because one response to mass ultraling is to get void rays, which own given that your composition has zero AA. And we all know how hydras do against void rays, so it's a good safety net to have even if you see only one stargate (if that one stargate continuously produces phoenixes it can get almost as bad as if there were 2 stargates in that you can't make queens to keep up with it).
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
September 11 2010 03:12 GMT
#147
The truth of the matter is, unless Toss proxies his stargates, you should never be surprised by them. Right now maps are pretty small. As a side effect of this, mains are also pretty small. Between what you scout with your drone, what you can see at the front with lings, and how much of a main you can scout my saccing an overlord, there is absolutely no reason to ever get surprised by an inbase Stargate play.

And even if he does proxy his stargates, his main should still scream "I'm up to something get more queens!!!".

Does he have 2 gas, 2 gates, and no additional tech structures? Guess what Toss's only viable option is...
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
September 12 2010 21:45 GMT
#148
Gonna' give this a little bump since its fallen to page 4.
sooch
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada299 Posts
September 12 2010 22:11 GMT
#149
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games.
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
September 12 2010 22:12 GMT
#150
On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games.


You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push.

If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door.
iCanada
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada10660 Posts
September 12 2010 22:13 GMT
#151
On September 11 2010 06:53 MrBitter wrote:
I don't have any math, but once you hit hive, you're going to have a pile of money. Make that first wave of ultras, and then start every upgrade you can afford. There's just no reason not to.

If you're comparing +3 attack to adrenal glands, the attack speed is going to win.

+3 = lings do 8 damage
Adrenal Glands = 20% attack speed - essentially 20% more damage. 7*1.2 = 8.4. This is napkin math, and I could be completely off with it. I'm an English major, after all.


As for waiting for the upgrades to finish - no, don't do that. One of the builds strengths is the fast ultras. You really want to do damage as soon as they pop.



It is only about 18% more damage actually, the tooltip isn't accurate. Adrenaline glands changes the zerg attack speed from 0.696, to 0.587.

So, DPS for +2 without AG:
7 damage / 0.696 seconds = 10.06 dps

DPS for +2 and Adrenaline glands:
7 damage / 0.587 seconds = 11.93 dps

DPS for +3 no AG:
8 damage / 0.696 seconds = 11.49 dps


DPS for +3 +AG:
8 damage / 0.587 seconds = 13.63 dps

So, if we are playing theorycraft, it is better to just get Adrenaline glands, however since you are getting Ultra's +6(+6 to armored) looks a lot scarier than +4(+4 to armored) does... So i personally would place the +1.43 ling DPS increase in addition to the +2.32(+2.32 to armored) DPS increase for the ultra over the adrenaline glands upgrade.

I mean, that 0.4 dps can build up when you have a ton of lings, but as you have Ultras, that removes a ton of ling surface area anyway.

/shrug

So personally, if i had to choose between the two, i would choose the +3 attack upgrade.
sooch
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada299 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-12 22:26:07
September 12 2010 22:20 GMT
#152
On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games.


You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push.

If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door.

I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason.

The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79177-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

Edited with replay.
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-12 22:25:11
September 12 2010 22:23 GMT
#153
ty for the maths. Numbers increase dramatically when you consider Ultra aoe, too.

edit:


On September 13 2010 07:20 sooch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:
On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games.


You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push.

If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door.

I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason.

The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work.



I would agree with this. It really comes down to scouting, though. If I get a real sense of aggression from the P, I'll start lings at 25/26. If I feel like he's being more complacent, or if I see that he's getting lots of stalkers, I'll wait til 29/30.

It's a fine line, I guess. =D
sooch
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada299 Posts
September 12 2010 22:27 GMT
#154
On September 13 2010 07:23 MrBitter wrote:
ty for the maths. Numbers increase dramatically when you consider Ultra aoe, too.

edit:


Show nested quote +
On September 13 2010 07:20 sooch wrote:
On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:
On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games.


You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push.

If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door.

I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason.

The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work.



I would agree with this. It really comes down to scouting, though. If I get a real sense of aggression from the P, I'll start lings at 25/26. If I feel like he's being more complacent, or if I see that he's getting lots of stalkers, I'll wait til 29/30.

It's a fine line, I guess. =D

I posted a replay so you can see if maybe there was something else I did wrong that was a larger contributor to the loss than waiting 4-5 supply too late to start pumping lings.
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-12 23:01:22
September 12 2010 23:00 GMT
#155
On September 13 2010 07:27 sooch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2010 07:23 MrBitter wrote:
ty for the maths. Numbers increase dramatically when you consider Ultra aoe, too.

edit:


On September 13 2010 07:20 sooch wrote:
On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:
On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games.


You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push.

If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door.

I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason.

The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work.



I would agree with this. It really comes down to scouting, though. If I get a real sense of aggression from the P, I'll start lings at 25/26. If I feel like he's being more complacent, or if I see that he's getting lots of stalkers, I'll wait til 29/30.

It's a fine line, I guess. =D

I posted a replay so you can see if maybe there was something else I did wrong that was a larger contributor to the loss than waiting 4-5 supply too late to start pumping lings.


Liked a lot of what I saw. You scouted well, and knew exactly what was coming. You did start pump'n lings pretty late. One thing I've been doing lately: Never pump drones from the nat. Once that hatch comes up, maynard 4-5 drones over, and go heavy into ling pump mode.

Still, I feel like you would have held that had you controlled your units a bit differently. I also would like to have seen 1-2 more spines sooner.

I like that you tried to split some lings off to go to his base, but I would have liked it more if you had used them to kill his forward pylon.

Ultimately, I think you lost that game because you let all your lings get tanked by zealots. Gotta' surround those stalkers. Only one stalker took ANY damage in that fight.

edit: You also booger your surround pretty badly. =p The lings you brought from behind just ran past the fight and made camp behind your natural minerals.
sooch
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada299 Posts
September 12 2010 23:14 GMT
#156
Yeah I pretty much saw the same thing. I guess I'll just pump lings 3-4 supply earlier and see what happens. My favourite part of this build has to be how you end up with incredible upgrades so early in the game...orange weapons look so much cooler than green weapons
ckw
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1018 Posts
September 13 2010 00:44 GMT
#157
To the people saying what about air, that question or a similar one could be asked about ANY build... What if? You don't take this BO and follow it like a bible every single game you play, you use this build when it's appropriate and don't use it when it's not, duh.
Being weak is a choice.
sandman_sy
Profile Joined September 2010
Philippines7 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-13 02:51:54
September 13 2010 02:28 GMT
#158
I was inspired by Dimaga and so, read this thread.. and did a little twist....

BTW.. im just a Platinum player... Dont expect much but seems to be working... hehe

i start out with
9 OV
13 Gas
13 Pool
Queen when pool pops
1 larva for a pair of lings(use this to sit outside his base or do a scout on what his door looks like)
Get ling speed for 1st 100 gas...
Get Evo chamber when you upgrade speed...
Usually start pumping lings around 19 or 20 supply
Upgrade your ling when EVO pops
Just to be safe. I usually place 1 Spore behind my mineral line. 1 Queen n 1 Spore =anti Dark/Vray/Banshee.

This is where you react:

Vs. Terrans (+1 Attack) usually i expand tech up n get banelings after this(most of the time.. i got map control) no way in hell he can expand with upgraded speedlings running around.

Vs. Protoss (+1 Carapace) either he has attempted to get collusis coz he saw my number of lings. or air.. which is easily countered by Mutas/Corruptor.. Run your OV over its base hehehe.. worth the 100 min.. or maybe a Overseer.. just let it ran pass.. Contaminate his gateway hehehe

Vs. Zerg (+1 Attack) i'd go baneling, and tech up to Muta while trying to kill him or forcing him to make inferior lings to counter my power lings. trickiest of them all.. yeah. i've tried this with someone going mass roach.. you just have to do a surround, just like sniping a zealot. A good surround can kill a roach with minimal damage to you. my lings seems to have survived and it was all downhill for him after that. The weakness of the roaches.. is speed. the lings snipes drones then runs, snipes the queen, and just plays tag in his camp. unless Mutas gets in on the battle, its GG when you can get 1 baneling into his mineral line.





IMPT part: when you speed upgrade the lings.. throw down your EVO.
by the time it pops you'll have a 100++ gas.. this is where you make a decision.. attack or carapace..?? for me.. vs Protoss.. i go carapace (to counter its +1 attack so that my lings wont die with just 2 hits) and vs Terran +1 attack. Although in the end.. i usually end up with +1 on both.
vOddy
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden402 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-13 03:17:38
September 13 2010 03:15 GMT
#159
This build order seems awesome, but if he goes 2 stargate phoenix I think you will die because there is no way to scout it in time.

I mean, on some maps you really can't scout their entire main if they cover the edges with a stalker or two. On Lost Temple for example, a Protoss could easily hide two stargates.
"You generate awesomeness. It just flows from you."
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
September 13 2010 03:21 GMT
#160
On September 13 2010 11:28 sandman_sy wrote:
I was inspired by Dimaga and so, read this thread.. and did a little twist....

BTW.. im just a Platinum player... Dont expect much but seems to be working... hehe

i start out with
9 OV
13 Gas
13 Pool
Queen when pool pops
1 larva for a pair of lings(use this to sit outside his base or do a scout on what his door looks like)
Get ling speed for 1st 100 gas...
Get Evo chamber when you upgrade speed...
Usually start pumping lings around 19 or 20 supply
Upgrade your ling when EVO pops
Just to be safe. I usually place 1 Spore behind my mineral line. 1 Queen n 1 Spore =anti Dark/Vray/Banshee.

This is where you react:

Vs. Terrans (+1 Attack) usually i expand tech up n get banelings after this(most of the time.. i got map control) no way in hell he can expand with upgraded speedlings running around.

Vs. Protoss (+1 Carapace) either he has attempted to get collusis coz he saw my number of lings. or air.. which is easily countered by Mutas/Corruptor.. Run your OV over its base hehehe.. worth the 100 min.. or maybe a Overseer.. just let it ran pass.. Contaminate his gateway hehehe

Vs. Zerg (+1 Attack) i'd go baneling, and tech up to Muta while trying to kill him or forcing him to make inferior lings to counter my power lings. trickiest of them all.. yeah. i've tried this with someone going mass roach.. you just have to do a surround, just like sniping a zealot. A good surround can kill a roach with minimal damage to you. my lings seems to have survived and it was all downhill for him after that. The weakness of the roaches.. is speed. the lings snipes drones then runs, snipes the queen, and just plays tag in his camp. unless Mutas gets in on the battle, its GG when you can get 1 baneling into his mineral line.





IMPT part: when you speed upgrade the lings.. throw down your EVO.
by the time it pops you'll have a 100++ gas.. this is where you make a decision.. attack or carapace..?? for me.. vs Protoss.. i go carapace (to counter its +1 attack so that my lings wont die with just 2 hits) and vs Terran +1 attack. Although in the end.. i usually end up with +1 on both.

You need an expansion dude.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
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