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Unless you've been living under a rock for the past several months, if you play Zerg, you know, love, adore and want to make sweet love to Dimaga. Touted for his creativity, Dimaga is also one of the strongest all-around, mechanical Zerg players that there is today.
Recently I've been struggling with my ZvP. After many nights of despair, rage, and lousy ladder losses, I decided to turn to Dimaga for answers. Dimaga does lots of crazy stuff when he plays, but what I want to focus on right now is what I'm going to call his "standard" ZvP BO.
First, a couple replays:
vs. Huk on Scrap Station - http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/1817
vs. WhiteRa on Scrap Station - http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/1426
The fact that they're both on scrap station may be significant... Or it may not be. I'll throw up some of my own replays at the end to show the build on other maps. In the mean time, if anyone else has reps of this build on other maps, please cough 'em up.
The Build:
14 Gas
14/15 Pool
Expo around 21
Ling Speed + Drone to 26-30
Evolution Chamber
+1 Attack (unless you see a forge, in which case you get carapace)
After you have enough gas for speed and +1, pull all drones off gas
Around 30 supply, pump lot's and lot's and looots of lings. 50-60 Zerglings.
Once this is done, put drones back on gas, and get lair. At this point, you're pumping purely drones.
As soon as Lair is done, infestation pit >> hive.
This is around the time, or perhaps slightly after most Toss will be making their first pushes.
If you CAN'T defend with just your lings, and if you CAN'T deter an attack by threatening run-bys, add 3-6 spines at your front.
As soon as Hive is up, ultra den goes down, and army production can kick back in again.
What this build does:
The massive zergling numbers do a surprisingly good job of shutting down most Toss pushes. Your numbers are just so overwhelming, that even largely zealot-centric armies will fold to the lings. The +1 is also a big help here.
Against 4 gate, and 3 gate+robo builds, this BO truly shines. The first push will be utterly obliterated, and if Toss goes home to turtle up until colossus, the ultra timing works out so that you have war-rhinos ready when he comes back out.
Against Stargate builds, the Zerg player is going to have to pump extra queens. This is because our Lair is pretty significantly delayed. (Dimaga usually gets his AFTER 8 minutes) However, assuming we can sniff out the stargate tech, queens do an excellent job at handling both voids and phoenixes until other tech kicks in.
What this build does not do:
This build does not do well against 2 gate pressure. If you go look up more Dimaga replays, any time he sees 2 gate, he transitions immediately to roach. The reason this build suffers vs. 2 gate, is because the zealot numbers get pretty high before we can start pumping lings.
This build also doesn't handle forge cuteness all that well. Lings just die too quickly to cannons. Again, if you look at Dimaga replays, you'll see that he opts for roaches against forge first builds also.
Now, since I was only able to dig up Dimaga reps using this build on Scrap Station, I've prepared a few of my own replays on other maps.
I'm a 1k-1.2k Zerg player.
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3270 - vs 4 gate on Xel'Naga Caverns
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3274 - vs 4 gate on Scrap Station
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3275 - vs a Zealot heavy open that got shut down by run-bys on Steppes of War
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3276 - vs 3 gate robo (immortal push)
I'm going to wrap this up by saying I really am blown away by how awesome this build is. Lings are so cost effective, and so good at buying you time until ultras pop. I would definitely advise anyone at any skill level to give this build a shot.
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So the point of this is to fast tech to ultras but at the same time, delay tech and mass lings?
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On September 07 2010 16:31 bananengurke wrote:
So the point of this is to fast tech to ultras but at the same time, delay tech and mass lings?
No. The point is to safely tech to ultras.
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On September 07 2010 16:31 bananengurke wrote:
So the point of this is to fast tech to ultras but at the same time, delay tech and mass lings?
Unlike Protoss and Terran zerg can't wall behind one unit and tech to t3. Seems interesting I might fool around with it.
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Looks interesting... I've been getting flattened by 4 gate builds lately (I guess they figured out if they go economy first they can make the first push huge).
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what about fully charged void rays?
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How are you going to scout what they are getting (robo/gateway/twilight/stargate) Suiciding 1-3 overlords and hope you're lucky and that you see what he's getting on the first overlord?
I also don't see this working at all vs a 1 gate core into 3-4 gate zealot-sentry attack, as long as the protoss is being careful, so I guess one has to rush to roaches when the ovie spots a bunch of zealots and/or sentries?
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I get lots of lulz out of people saying "this build that Dimaga uses regularly will never work".
If they go air >> get queens until you can have hydras out. This happens in one of the Dimaga replays linked in the OP.
As for scouting: Use this build if they don't 2 gate, or go forge first. Simple as that. It works very well against the vast majority of typical mid-game toss plays.
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I do this a lot. The only thing that differs in my play is that I go
14 gas
14 pool
15 evo chamber.
The evo chamber finishes just as you have about 100 gas. Get +1 first and then speed. Speed finishes later but you have the +1 sooner. They finish at about the same time.
Its very good against 4 gates. When I get home I will edit this post with some replays of my version of this build.
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As for scouting: Use this build if they don't 2 gate, or go forge first. Simple as that. It works very well against the vast majority of typical mid-game toss plays.
what if they prevent further scouting with your overlords, scout that you have less anti-air and go double cb'd stargate? a few queens are not sufficient to stop that.
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I have been using this build since early beta, and I have never considered another alternative to be superior. I even used it in ZvZ back before the roach nerf and blings became the standard. Lings just handle EVERYTHING if you defend outside your choke and bait forcefields to get a decent surround. I know it doesn't mean much, but I never deviate from this build against single digit diamonds and the way I generally lose is either being outplayed (obviously), or just having bad positioning and not being able to fit enough of my forces through a small area. I can't recall a time I wasn't properly prepared for a push or felt my force was inadequate.
Edit: I just want to emphasize that lings can literally handle every unit the gateway makes except templar. If you are getting taken down by sentry/zealot you simply need to work on your FF baits and positioning. I don't actually know if +1 melee is superior to armor vs zealots, but it has been working so far  As for voidrays, just make another queen, same as every other build -_-
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This build can work vs T too?( ling+baneling into ultra)
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I've been doing a similar style of ZvP lately, and it works surprisingly well,
1/0 lings are cost effective vs all 0/0 gateway units until t3
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What happens if/when the P opts to go for some upgrades, especially armor ones? *More* lings? =)
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Can someone post a replay of beating an 4g zeal/sentry push with lings? I think that would be the hardest part to beat.
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On September 07 2010 18:21 nomatchh wrote:
This build can work vs T too?( ling+baneling into ultra)
You would go ling + infestor into ultra. Blings would be a bonus. With 8+ infestors, you can whittle down any army, with the focus on targeting hellions (as they just roast your lings). Tanks will end up hurting the terran army more than your own if you can position things correctly.
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In both of the reps linked DIMAGA goes for +1 armor, not +1 attack even though there were no forge to be seen.
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On September 07 2010 19:03 grobo wrote:
In both of the reps linked DIMAGA goes for +1 armor, not +1 attack even though there were no forge to be seen.
Vs. WhiteRa he goes + attack afair.
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On September 07 2010 19:03 grobo wrote:
In both of the reps linked DIMAGA goes for +1 armor, not +1 attack even though there were no forge to be seen.
I'm gonna dig up some more Dimaga reps where he gets +1 attack instead. I know I've seen this build on other maps, its just a pain to dig through so many replays looking for it.
That said, thanks for pointing that out. I might need to go back and change the OP to reflect it.
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On September 07 2010 19:07 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 19:03 grobo wrote:
In both of the reps linked DIMAGA goes for +1 armor, not +1 attack even though there were no forge to be seen. I'm gonna dig up some more Dimaga reps where he gets +1 attack instead. I know I've seen this build on other maps, its just a pain to dig through so many replays looking for it. That said, thanks for pointing that out. I might need to go back and change the OP to reflect it.
No biggie, just a little thing i noticed when i watched the reps.
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interesting strategy. will try this out!
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This build is actually quite genius. What you do:
-Get fast +1 lings, this is one of dimagas orginals for holding off the 1 base toss.
-Extra queens, this is against something a lot of people do against a 1 base because they're really good
-Fast tech to hive
Now you have upgraded, ultra/ling, with queens for tranfusion and you only need maybe 3 bases because you spend so little gas.
+1 attack lings weakness is +1 attack zealot/sentry but if its a map without backdoor spinecrawler+queen+ling beats that.
Queens are the best anti air unit the zerg has with tranfusion so its not weak to that. Immortal/zealot/sentry is probably the direct way to attack this build.
Getting +1 armour makes no sense unless he's going +1 attack himself btw. But if it gets scouted at all you really don't want to risk +1 attack lings vs +1 attack zealots, +1 armour is more solid.
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is that Dimaga style? i was doing sg similar and recommending to others, and nobody said it Dimaga does that, lol, truth to be told, as much as i love dimaga i only DLed his ZvTs and some ZvZ
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I played my last games like this and it works quite well, but i wonder if good forcefields completely annihilate this.
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On September 07 2010 18:14 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I do this a lot. The only thing that differs in my play is that I go
14 gas
14 pool
15 evo chamber.
The evo chamber finishes just as you have about 100 gas. Get +1 first and then speed. Speed finishes later but you have the +1 sooner. They finish at about the same time.
Its very good against 4 gates. When I get home I will edit this post with some replays of my version of this build.
I have been experimenting with something similar, as well. Here's a replay (level: approximately 800 diamond, EU servers). http://replayfu.com/r/J0pwg
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FE into double stargate looks to rape this build. But who does that anyway? I guess you shouldn't oversimplify the build. Sometimes gidra switch is necessary.
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u posted wrong link for 2 of ur own replays
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On September 07 2010 20:50 Cheerio wrote:
FE into double stargate looks to rape this build. But who does that anyway? I guess you shouldn't oversimplify the build. Sometimes gidra switch is necessary.
You should pretty much always get hydra den after lair just as extra valuable tech for such situations.
I just player this build FE into 2 (at least) stargate and won.
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On September 07 2010 20:58 boneyz wrote:
u posted wrong link for 2 of ur own replays
Whoops. Fixed. Thanks.
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Isn't this vulnerable against fast forge into expand?
You probably won't have the gas to punish him with fast hydras or mutas.
Or you'd rather go for a fast third then?
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On September 07 2010 20:50 Cheerio wrote:
FE into double stargate looks to rape this build. But who does that anyway? I guess you shouldn't oversimplify the build. Sometimes gidra switch is necessary.
LOL, FE into double stargate, if that gets scouted all you need is like 1 queen per void ray which is 150 minerals for 250/150 and then get 1 infestor while teching to hive or hydra.
If it doesn't get scouted and you win well grats but chances of dimaga not scouting it?
I imagine against FE he wouldn't do this build anyway. Its designed to take down 1 base protoss 2 base you can play normally and maybe stick with the upgrades but get 2 bases and mass drones using ling/queen to survive any warpgate attacks off 2 base.
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The 2nd and 3rd replays of your own play - the links don't work for me. Looking forward to watching the replays :-)
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On September 07 2010 21:30 Recidivist wrote:
The 2nd and 3rd replays of your own play - the links don't work for me. Looking forward to watching the replays :-)
I thought I fixed this. The links are working for me. Can anyone else download them?
On September 07 2010 21:19 amorpheus wrote:
Isn't this vulnerable against fast forge into expand?
You probably won't have the gas to punish him with fast hydras or mutas.
Or you'd rather go for a fast third then?
I actually address this in the OP. Against forge openings, Dimaga typically responds by getting lots of roaches, and going all in - often with Nydus Worms.
Your other option is to skip the lings and just drone like a mad man.
If Toss goes forge first, Z is going to scout it well before he wants to start pumping lings. In this case, just don't make the lings. Drone up, add gas, and go muta.
On September 07 2010 20:50 Cheerio wrote:
FE into double stargate looks to rape this build. But who does that anyway? I guess you shouldn't oversimplify the build. Sometimes gidra switch is necessary.
Yes. Sometimes tech switch is necessary. Again, read the OP. This build really shines against one base warpgate builds. If Toss goes void ray, and catches you with your pants down, then its your fault for getting caught. No biggy, it happens to us all sometimes.
That said, its easy to get 1-2 extra queens out. And 3-4 queens can easily stall voids long enough for hydra to come into play.
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Downloads working now, thx!
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...what level are the protoss you're playing? the guy on scrap station had 1500 minerals.. with a 4 warp gate build..! and refused to expand until his army died so it just got shut down immediately. If he'd macro'd properly and expanded asap I think he'd have beaten you easily. Hell if he hadn't thrown his army away for nothing he would've been in a good position
not that I'm saying this build is completely invalid but the games you show are, he completely repelled your zergling army and your economy was terrible (about 3 drones mining the natural minerals iirc). Ignoring the fact he could've killed you but backed off giving you the time to throw up 4 spine crawlers :p
I think if a smart protoss scouts a heavy-zergling composition he's going to have a pretty sentry-skewed composition so your zerglings are going to have a super difficult time making anything happen
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As promised, here are the replays =).
http://replayfu.com/download/UlB3F
This is a replay versus a standard 4 gate.
http://replayfu.com/download/YeOEn
This game was on Delta quadrant, against a 4 gate + robo for immortals.
http://replayfu.com/download/RVZNy
This was against a 3 gate robo push.
http://replayfu.com/download/DlvZe
Aaaand this one against a 2gate into 4gate.
However, I'll have you know that this isn't the end all be all build. I've lost to some protoss mainly due to skill difference of my opponents or general baneling mistakes on my part. Like the replays below.
http://replayfu.com/download/rva4O
http://replayfu.com/download/OzReX
My version is to add banelings when the zealot count gets too high. Forcefields do work wonders against this, however, a sentry can only forcefield so much. If the opponent needs sentries to stay alive, then you're fairly ahead since he can't tech as fast due to the 100 gas for each sentry.
I have yet to use this build against a 4 gate blink stalker build though, but I expect that it would do great due to the cooldown of blink. Unless ofcourse you are fighting near a ridge. Then again, with this build, you can choose where to attack. Thus you can avoid ridges altogether if you play it smart.
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How does this build go vs fast phoenix or colossi? How do you adapt it? Have you actually been in a situation where your toss opponent did such things? I imagine with a +8 minute lair and delayed gas harvesting, you'd have trouble defending against a well timed zealot push with support from 2 colossi and sentries.
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On September 08 2010 01:08 LilClinkin wrote:
How does this build go vs fast phoenix or colossi? How do you adapt it? Have you actually been in a situation where your toss opponent did such things? I imagine with a +8 minute lair and delayed gas harvesting, you'd have trouble defending against a well timed zealot push with support from 2 colossi and sentries.
One of the Dimaga reps shows the build vs. fast phoenix. Against a fast colossus, I would imagine things might get pretty hairy. I've not run into any fast colossus play lately, but I think it'd be very hard to handle.
On September 08 2010 00:41 Setanta wrote:
...what level are the protoss you're playing? the guy on scrap station had 1500 minerals.. with a 4 warp gate build..! and refused to expand until his army died so it just got shut down immediately. If he'd macro'd properly and expanded asap I think he'd have beaten you easily. Hell if he hadn't thrown his army away for nothing he would've been in a good position
not that I'm saying this build is completely invalid but the games you show are, he completely repelled your zergling army and your economy was terrible (about 3 drones mining the natural minerals iirc). Ignoring the fact he could've killed you but backed off giving you the time to throw up 4 spine crawlers :p
I think if a smart protoss scouts a heavy-zergling composition he's going to have a pretty sentry-skewed composition so your zerglings are going to have a super difficult time making anything happen
My replays were all from ladder, so I'm guessing they're ~1k toss users. That said, I don't claim to be anything special, nor do I think any of my competition necessarily is. If you want to see polished execution of this build, watch Dimaga.
edit:
And for what its worth (spoiler below)
+ Show Spoiler +Cool used something very similar to this build to beat an all-inning Protoss opponent in the GSL earlier today. You could go look that game up, too.
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I copy this build but I time it around the queens.
If you watch Dimaga he gets 100 gas for speed then leaves ONE drone on gas.
When the second queen is about half done he goes back to 3 drones so he has exaclty 100 gas when the 2nd queen pops so he can start lair immediately.
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When do you usually take your 2nd/3rd/4th gases?
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On September 08 2010 03:07 sooch wrote:
When do you usually take your 2nd/3rd/4th gases?
I usually start mine after starting lair. This is the point in the game when you're powering drones, so its not a burden on your economy.
On September 08 2010 03:07 Klive5ive wrote:
I copy this build but I time it around the queens.
If you watch Dimaga he gets 100 gas for speed then leaves ONE drone on gas.
When the second queen is about half done he goes back to 3 drones so he has exaclty 100 gas when the 2nd queen pops so he can start lair immediately.
Don't forget the extra 100-150 gas for +1
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Without even watching reps, I'm pretty confident in this build. In the early days of beta, this kind of build (+1 atk mass lings) was strong against the 3 gate/robo that was popular at the time, and also really good against a zerg going mass roach.
One interesting thing about going mass lings is how important it is to have the correct number of them. I recall testing various forces in the Unit Tester, and finding (for example) that 40 lings lose to a 4 gate protoss force, but 50 lings absolutely crush that same force, with like 15 - 20 lings left over.
The reason +1 attack is so strong for mass lings is of course, because of the high unit count the upgrade is applying itself to, and because +1 attack is a whopping 20% increase for a zergling's 5 damage, AND because zerglings attack so quickly (0.69 cooldown), making the upgrade magnified by the sheer number of attacks taking place.
Comparably, +1 attack for roaches (making them go from 16 dmg to 18) is rather weak, as their cooldown is 2.00 and you won't have nearly as many roaches as lings, so the upgrade is minimized.
Even though I knew how awesome +1 attack was for mass lings, I generally forgot about it and haven't used this much at all lately... nice post!
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I've tried this play in a few games vs Toss.. I will say that it is probably effective against a 4 gate, but forge into FE rapes this build.. it allows the toss to wall off which prevents any real aggressiveness when you are sitting with like 50-60 lings, and once he gets a ball of sentry/zealot/stalker and 1-2 colossus no matter how many lings you have you can't break it. I've transitioned into mutas as well which does help but mass phoenix rape this build hard core.
The life of a zerg...
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I'd like to hear what you think about the order of the upgrades in this build. In both of the replays you posted I think Dimaga went armor ->attack -> armor, which makes me wonder if that +1 melee attack is worth it because, like in the dima/huk replay, getting that melee up lets the P catch up in weapons/upgrades. In the huk replay there was a timing of like 30 seconds where dimaga was 1/1 and huk was 2/0. That seems even more significant in sc2 since both zealots and colossi benefit a ton from being ahead in that upgrade race.
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I tried this my last ZvP vs what I thought was 4 gate. But it was 3 gate colossus.
I waited and waited for the attack to come. Delayed ultras to long and the two colossus won him the battle. But I still almost had him.
So I definitely think there is value in this strategy I was surprised by how much he lost despite having 2 collo. Haven't had time playing SC2 much last days
Just gotta be careful vs fast colossus tech cause that will roll you over. However once scouted 3 gate colossus is weak to lots of other things so shouldn't be a huge problem.
But can you scout a good P without lair tech?
anyways thanks for highlighting the BO. will try it out more gave me more confidence in this working.
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On September 08 2010 05:26 Skarra wrote:
I've tried this play in a few games vs Toss.. I will say that it is probably effective against a 4 gate, but forge into FE rapes this build.. it allows the toss to wall off which prevents any real aggressiveness when you are sitting with like 50-60 lings, and once he gets a ball of sentry/zealot/stalker and 1-2 colossus no matter how many lings you have you can't break it. I've transitioned into mutas as well which does help but mass phoenix rape this build hard core.
The life of a zerg...
Forge builds, as stated in the OP, are typically gonna' do well against this, since you're not really coming out ahead in the economy race.
If you scout forge, do something else. Simple as that.
Phoenix builds should not give you any trouble. Toss will be behind in army, and queens handle phoenixes easily.
Now if you don't scout, or you don't realize he's going phoenix, that's a different ball game. The fault here is on you, though, not the build.
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Sounds interesting. But is it possible to go for a mutalisk variation properly?
The way I see it:
Protoss does 4 gate
You hold it off with the 1+ mass ling.
Protoss expanded while fightning
You start teching towards mutalisks while droning / adding zerglings if neccessary.
Mass muta and mass lings > into a delayed Hive then suggested, but allows the Zerg to be more aggressive more earlier I suppose. (Muta harrass.)
Thoughts?
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On September 08 2010 05:51 NonFactor wrote:
Sounds interesting. But is it possible to go for a mutalisk variation properly?
The way I see it:
Protoss does 4 gate
You hold it off with the 1+ mass ling.
Protoss expanded while fightning
You start teching towards mutalisks while droning / adding zerglings if neccessary.
Mass muta and mass lings > into a delayed Hive then suggested, but allows the Zerg to be more aggressive more earlier I suppose. (Muta harrass.)
Thoughts?
I've tried this. My personal feeling was stalkers numbers got too high, and ultras were delayed just a little bit too long to swing the fight back my way.
That said, I'm kind of uncomfortable going muta vP. Maybe someone more confident in that play and mathcup could be more successful with it.
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As a 700 Diamond Protoss Player, I find this build really effective, and hard to counter. I think good forcefields are the way to go against this , but you'll require a lot as a protoss. Does anyone have a replay of them getting defeated by a protoss with this tactic aside from the protoss using 2gate?
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On September 07 2010 18:21 nomatchh wrote:
This build can work vs T too?( ling+baneling into ultra)
vs bio it can probably work (theory).
vs mech, thors own ultras, so you're screwed. Plus mass lings would force mech because hellions counter lings so well.
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On September 08 2010 06:09 obidan wrote:
As a 700 Diamond Protoss Player, I find this build really effective, and hard to counter. I think good forcefields are the way to go against this , but you'll require a lot as a protoss. Does anyone have a replay of them getting defeated by a protoss with this tactic aside from the protoss using 2gate?
Here's one of Dimaga losing to some pretty exceptional blink micro. (and Kulas.)
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/1245
On September 08 2010 06:15 Antares777 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 18:21 nomatchh wrote:
This build can work vs T too?( ling+baneling into ultra)
vs bio it can probably work (theory). vs mech, thors own ultras, so you're screwed. Plus mass lings would force mech because hellions counter lings so well.
Thors owning ultras? I don't really agree there. I don't know how this type of build would work against T, though. I have to feel like he would just turtle behind his wall until marines got to critical mass, though, and then push before ultras came into play.
Or, as was already mentioned, just make some blue flame hellions.
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My version of this build:
Get the +1 attack and speed upgrades for the lings, expand around 20, spam lings and drones, get spire + a lot of gas, and second evo chamber as my third builds. I then build an infestation Pit and tech to Hive and stop mutalisk production and save all of my gas for upgrades and ultras.
I think that this build is too weak vs. a vr/ phoenix rush so I added mutas to prevent toss from even thinking about getting that stargate. Then Ultraling just rapes 4 gate and 3 gate robo. The only problem is if he goes phoenixes. Then you should stop muta production early and get more queens and if he is massing, maybe even spore crawlers. If you cannot break his ramp, just drop in his base.
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when first seen by dimaga i played that in different variations.
overall i like to tech to lair and hive much faster out of 2 bases to get 2 base ling ultra fast than pushing and securing a third when ultra is out, seems really save
against a macrotoss that is not going for any push and just keeps expanding i like to stay on lair and get 8-10 muta before hive to snipe some probes
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I've been having an awesome time with heavy-ling early to mid games lately at 1000-1200, especially against 4 gates. Sometimes I don't even drone my expansion at all. It's easy to deny scouts later on when they 4 gate, and when they push out they get immediately overrun. +1 could only make it better :D
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On September 07 2010 18:21 nomatchh wrote:
This build can work vs T too?( ling+baneling into ultra)
So for kicks and giggles I tried this:
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3339
The Terran was bad. 950 diamond, though, and it worked out.
I do not feel like this is going to be real viable vT. I felt like there was a large period of time where he could have pushed and killed me, but instead he opted to set up a contain outside my nat, which got utterly squashed once ultras were out.
I might experiment with it some more, but for now, I'd say steer clear of this one in ZvT.
On September 08 2010 06:39 Tsagacity wrote:
I've been having an awesome time with heavy-ling early to mid games lately at 1000-1200, especially against 4 gates. Sometimes I don't even drone my expansion at all. It's easy to deny scouts later on when they 4 gate, and when they push out they get immediately overrun. +1 could only make it better :D
Funny that you mention not droning your expo. When I do this build, I'll maynard 4-5 drones over, and maybe make 1-2 from the first larvae that pop, but that's it. From that point on its all lings until I start my lair.
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OP, you stated to start pumping out lings after 30...what if protoss attacks before then? say zeal rush?
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On September 08 2010 06:42 Arterial wrote:
OP, you stated to start pumping out lings after 30...what if protoss attacks before then? say zeal rush?
Hopefully I will have scouted it, and can respond accordingly.
As stated in the OP, if you scout 2 gate, you're better off transitioning to roach.
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This is some really cool stuff, I'm gonna have to try it when I get back home from work.
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sorry i dont read all this comments but this strategie has one more hole TT its fast dark
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Ah okay.
This may have been addressed already but has anyone crunched the numbers in terms of upgrades (attack and defence)? I don't quite understand...
Lings have 35 HP
Zealot does 8x2
With +1 carapace would that make it 7x2? which equals 14 damage? Wouldnt it still take 3 shots from teh zealot to kill the ling?
Explanation would help heaps guys
many thanks.
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On September 08 2010 03:07 sooch wrote:
When do you usually take your 2nd/3rd/4th gases?
He get's the 2nd gas immediately after he starts Lair and has both Queens up. That gives you just enough for spire when the Lair finishes.
The first larvae inject pop is usually an entire round of zerglings since this is around the timing you're weak (before the mutas pop). If you're sure you are safe then you can get more drones and take 3/4th gas, if not then you have to keep pumping lings.
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On September 07 2010 19:03 grobo wrote:
In both of the reps linked DIMAGA goes for +1 armor, not +1 attack even though there were no forge to be seen.
Getting +1 armour vs zwealots still makes the zealots kill lings in 3 hits so +1 more attack makes more sense you obviously want to get +1 armour if you see their forge in production
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On September 08 2010 06:56 Arterial wrote:Ah okay. This may have been addressed already but has anyone crunched the numbers in terms of upgrades (attack and defence)? I don't quite understand... Lings have 35 HP Zealot does 8x2 With +1 carapace would that make it 7x2? which equals 14 damage? Wouldnt it still take 3 shots from teh zealot to kill the ling? Explanation would help heaps guys many thanks.
The only reason you get +1 carapace is to negate Zealots +1 attack. This way lings still take 3 hits to die, instead of just 2.
On September 08 2010 07:05 NoXiOuS36th wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 19:03 grobo wrote:
In both of the reps linked DIMAGA goes for +1 armor, not +1 attack even though there were no forge to be seen. Getting +1 armour vs zwealots still makes the zealots kill lings in 3 hits so +1 more attack makes more sense you obviously want to get +1 armour if you see their forge in production
^^ This is correct. Forge means upgrades for toss. Negate that with armor.
On September 08 2010 06:56 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 03:07 sooch wrote:
When do you usually take your 2nd/3rd/4th gases? He get's the 2nd gas immediately after he starts Lair and has both Queens up. That gives you just enough for spire when the Lair finishes. The first larvae inject pop is usually an entire round of zerglings since this is around the timing you're weak (before the mutas pop). If you're sure you are safe then you can get more drones and take 3/4th gas, if not then you have to keep pumping lings.
lol, not sure what this guy is talking about. =p
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ohhh I see now. many thanks Mr Bitter.
I'll definitely be trying this build tonight. I've been mainly doing 5RR build.
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On September 08 2010 06:40 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 18:21 nomatchh wrote:
This build can work vs T too?( ling+baneling into ultra)
So for kicks and giggles I tried this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3339The Terran was bad. 950 diamond, though, and it worked out. I do not feel like this is going to be real viable vT. I felt like there was a large period of time where he could have pushed and killed me, but instead he opted to set up a contain outside my nat, which got utterly squashed once ultras were out. I might experiment with it some more, but for now, I'd say steer clear of this one in ZvT. Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 06:39 Tsagacity wrote:
I've been having an awesome time with heavy-ling early to mid games lately at 1000-1200, especially against 4 gates. Sometimes I don't even drone my expansion at all. It's easy to deny scouts later on when they 4 gate, and when they push out they get immediately overrun. +1 could only make it better :D Funny that you mention not droning your expo. When I do this build, I'll maynard 4-5 drones over, and maybe make 1-2 from the first larvae that pop, but that's it. From that point on its all lings until I start my lair. Yeah that sounds about right. Even if there weren't econ benefits it's still suspicious if they do get a probe scout in somehow and you dont have a single drone at your nat. I just tried this twice more making sure to add +1 and both games went splendid :>
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It works, but i have 2 problems:
If he scouts the evo chamber he can forge and chronoboost upgrades getting them finished way earlier then yours. Lings will be dead meat.
I cannot hold the 4gate with that build on steppes of war. Do you stop droning here earlier?
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On September 08 2010 07:22 peon.power wrote:
It works, but i have 2 problems:
If he scouts the evo chamber he can forge and chronoboost upgrades getting them finished way earlier then yours. Lings will be dead meat.
I cannot hold the 4gate with that build on steppes of war. Do you stop droning here earlier?
You need to scout forge, and get +1 carapace. Even with chrono boost, the window where he's ahead is not going to be a large one... If there's a window at all.
That said, evo chamber should go down after your expansion. At this point you should be denying scouts pretty easily.
If he scouts it with an obs, he's already behind.
I've only been able to try this on steppes a few times, but it sounds to me like you're not adding spines. Spines + a zillion lings make defense ezmode.
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Steppes is also one of the few maps (only maybe?) with an especially wide-open middle, so it's much harder for them to hug a wall in addition to force fields.
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Been trying this the past few games and it works pretty well, also it lets you transition really comfortably to mutaling. Something to consider, specially when in close positions (ie scrap station) is that you already have a evo chamber so you can throw a spore colony just in case.
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I will be trying this build out tomorrow.
Just a question, given the focus on drones and lings which are larvae intensive would it be worth having and extra hatchery in base (with or without the extra queen) ?
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On September 08 2010 11:41 Sixes wrote:
I will be trying this build out tomorrow.
Just a question, given the focus on drones and lings which are larvae intensive would it be worth having and extra hatchery in base (with or without the extra queen) ?
You really don't have an excess of minerals with this build since you are teching so fast.
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On September 08 2010 11:49 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 11:41 Sixes wrote:
I will be trying this build out tomorrow.
Just a question, given the focus on drones and lings which are larvae intensive would it be worth having and extra hatchery in base (with or without the extra queen) ? You really don't have an excess of minerals with this build since you are teching so fast.
^^ This.
Minerals and gas should start stacking up a little bit as your hive is finishing. This is ok, though, since you're going to use it all on ultras, anyway.
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I used this build 4-5 times today and it's pretty fucking awesome when P sticks to the standard ground armies, but the hardest thing to deal with is when P gets a stargate and starts making a combination of phoenix/void. It takes alot of game sense to determain exactly how many queens you should make, but with some transfusions you can hold off a surprised amount of air.
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Ive tried this build already on 5 games an i only lost once. My music was to loud so i could hear lings getting slaughtered by the P moving out. I dont rush to ultras cause i dont really find them all too effective just transition to mutas most of the time. I believe the best time to start Lair is when you see the Robo/Stargate.
Specially against Robo after lair i get an insta overseer to contaminate an delay him.
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I love that build, thanks for the thread !
My end game is always lings/ultra against toss, but i'm going there by roach/hydra to handle those 4 gate pressure and Air rush. Now we can handle ground with ling and air with queens ( only minerals, which is why this build interest me so much ). If you suspect to much air, placing a hydra den don't seems so useless.
Also getting a 3rd queen appears quite good to me, tumours, transfuse later on ultra etc... Even a nydus ( if you have extra gaz ) to make some queen join you're army allowing you to place tumours everywhere and heal those huge monsters. I love that build so much ! ^^
I'm just concern about a fast DT, probably put some anti air defence if you don't scout anything and see just a small army blocking their ramp, since it's the only T1 detection and we already got the evolution chamber ( and it's only minerals too ). But still, it's a great way to access end game composition quickly, thanks a lot.
Edit : ho by the way, just a question, is a spore crawler un-burrowed is still a detector ? If it's positive you could go with just one or two since they move at a quite decent speed on creep.
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30pop -> 50+ lings? Eco doesn't sound to be too healthy like that. I suspect he gets like 10drones more during that lingmassing depending what's expected to come from opponent. Otherwise I like the introduced style in theory.
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Love this. But I drop a spire just in case but not for mutas. Corruptors are pretty handy if he goes for colossi or a stargate.
And becaue you have hive, you can get a greater spire if required.
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I just jizzed in my pants - gonna watch these reps. Ive been beaten up by no brainer 4 gate all in pushes and crying like a little kid when i lose to it which i do 95% of the time. Ive done everything to try to fiend that shit off. Lets see if dimaga knows something i don't :D
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so pure lings-ultras huh... and how about void rays or even carriers?
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This build is INCREDIBLY effective. Zerglings with +1 attack are absurdly effective at dealing with the vast majority of the protoss army.
In a lot of my games I found my protoss opponent fast expanding and just did a simple baneling bust w/ about ~12 banelings and the timing was such that my lings were 1/1. It was definitely an all-in strategy at around 50-60 food but it worked so well all four times I've tried it. The most interesting thing was that not only did it completely obliterate his expansion and give me the economic advantage being up a base and workers, but all four games I just won the game right then and there.
Well-timed sentries are obviously very effective against zerglings but they're 50/100 and you're zerglings are 50/0. I <3 it.
PS. Getting queens for air is a better decision than hydras imo. The extra creep tumors are invaluable and transfusing ultras late game is SOOOO good. Dimaga does that well in the game vs. Huk. If you can get adequate anti-air for no gas it really frees you up for additional upgrades and a lot of ultras.
TLDR: This build is F$%&ING BRILLIANT.
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Thank you for posting this build and the replays. I was very much underestimating how much the +1 upgrade helped the lings vs the toss army. I played with it a bit last night but only ran into two toss players, one went fast Phoenix and when I saw them I just attacked his base and won, the other went fast void and I just attacked his base and won.
I don't understand the concern about lack of air defense, no build will account for everything. If you think he's going air turn out another couple queens, drop a spore crawler or two if you're really that worried and get on with your life.
At a minimum try this out just so you can see how big a difference the +1 makes.
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Basically what i do vs every protoss, 90% of the time i get 4 gated and this works sooooo well against a 4 gate
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Practicing this last night, my friend and I both found that our minerals were getting high. Timings will improve with more practice, however anyone else experiencing this with this build? Any tips on how to keep it down? Maybe I'm just not making enough lings...
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On September 08 2010 21:22 ffswowsucks wrote:
so pure lings-ultras huh... and how about void rays or even carriers?
For fast void rays just rush him and kill him (not to mention a few queens can hold off until you get hydras, your lair is delayed but not so much that he can have 8 rays out). You can also put down spore crawlers as you have a good econ and the evo already (and toss going fast void ray is behind by an expand and likely can't expand because of the lings).
I had someone try void rays late game ... he found the colossus/stalker/zealot was not working against 3/0 lings (he had no forge). He had gone 4 gate into fast colossus I believe, getting all his armies swarmed by lings. When I saw the void rays I took the 5 ultras and 100 lings I had and attacked his base, by the time he got from my 3rd to his base (on Xel naga) he had 1 pylon and 1 gateway left (on 2 bases). It's amazing what 100 lings 3/0 can do to a base ...
And this was all with my relatively poor macro (not enough drones, in base hatch because I wasn't quite on time with the larvae spawns) and forgetting adrenal glands.
Absolutely great strategy, the start is so similar to a roach rush you can pop out roaches if you see a 2 gate. Remember to keep upgrading, there is no reason not to get 2/0 and 3/0 as well as carapace if a toss is upgrading his attack.
Had a problem with a cannon FE on scrap station but I think if I had pumped roaches at the right time (I had the warren down but only made 5 before massing lings) I could have broken through and taken out the expand.
The greatest part is that toss players seem to always just make lots of zealots to counter lings. If they don't get their upgrades though 2/0 or 3/0 lings start eating zealots alive.
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On September 08 2010 23:06 Recidivist wrote:
Practicing this last night, my friend and I both found that our minerals were getting high. Timings will improve with more practice, however anyone else experiencing this with this build? Any tips on how to keep it down? Maybe I'm just not making enough lings...
I had this issue a little before ultras popped, I think its just due to non-pro macro :p.
My solution is to drop an in base hatch. If you don't already have extra queens, make some and go from there.
If I see a 4 gate massing I will likely get an extra queen or two regardless because transfusing spine crawlers is wonderful. They also defend air and can pump larvae for an in base hatch so really there is no reason not to get 3-4 queens on your 2 bases. They also help keep minerals down because they don't use larvae.
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In the second replay, DIMAGA had ultras morphing at ~12 minute mark. A 4gate all-in push would come before that time, right?
Ultra rush!
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On September 08 2010 23:06 Recidivist wrote:
Practicing this last night, my friend and I both found that our minerals were getting high. Timings will improve with more practice, however anyone else experiencing this with this build? Any tips on how to keep it down? Maybe I'm just not making enough lings...
1.) Stay on top of your queens. More larvae means spending more money
2.) Make extra queens. Seriously, if you've got extra money, there's no reason no to.
3.) Expand again, or drop an in base hatch. Personally I would advise against expanding a 2nd time until you've won a major engagement.
4.) Make note of how close you are to hive. You're going to need a lot of money to crank out ultras. Even Dimaga lets his money start stacking up pretty high between lair and hive.
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About fast DTs
Can't you just put down a spore or two at you nat/choke to buy time for teching and fend of the first few fast DTs?
Evo is already up and 1-2 spores aren't that huge of an investment. Especially not considering he might go air. And you can move the spores around as you need them depending on your scouting.
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On September 08 2010 21:22 ffswowsucks wrote:
so pure lings-ultras huh... and how about void rays or even carriers?
I love when people out and out dismiss a strategy by simply pointing out the 1-2 units that counter the unit composition. Is the zerg not allowed to scout and react accordingly?
On September 08 2010 21:05 Ouga wrote:
30pop -> 50+ lings? Eco doesn't sound to be too healthy like that. I suspect he gets like 10drones more during that lingmassing depending what's expected to come from opponent. Otherwise I like the introduced style in theory.
This is why you can't lay builds in stone for Zerg. The 30 drones thing is just a recommendation for a good place to stop against common 4gate timings. Ps economy isn't going to be much better if he is 4gating.
On September 08 2010 21:11 DoomSpirit wrote:
Love this. But I drop a spire just in case but not for mutas. Corruptors are pretty handy if he goes for colossi or a stargate.
And becaue you have hive, you can get a greater spire if required.
That's a viable way to play, but it's really not the same build. Getting the spire will just delay your ultras and force you to play mutaling. If you scout a stargate you can just get a 3rd/4th queen and a hydra den while still teching to ultra extremely quickly.
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I've also had a lot of trouble with ZvP and this makes a lot of sense! As the OP (and some other posts) have mentioned, this is vulnerable to a fast colossus/zealot push. I've tried to play through some colossus/zealot builds to see how the timings work out, but my toss is really bad, so I don't know what is reasonable. Any good replays of this against fast colossi?
Specific concerns are:
-a ling only army means he doesn't need thermal lance, which frees up quite a bit of gas.
(thermal lance helps against spine crawlers, so maybe one should still get it with fast colossi?)
-if the toss gets a few stalkers early, then scouting this and distinguishing it from a slower
3-gate robo seems tough.
The second replay has lings killing three collosi, but that's mostly bad positioning on whitera's part.
Cheers
P.S.: Really looking forward to the Dimaga/Kiwikaki showmatch. Hopefully we'll see something like this in action
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Concerning the colossus, is fungal stop them ? I think it is, only ultra are immune. But i'm not sure.
Cause if you scout a fast colo, maybe it's a viable solution, it's delaying your ultra a little bit, but not so much cause you won't have to build another structure, you already have the infestation pit. And Ultra are so long to pop that the timing push with colo is dangerous . So maybe blocking them, not allowing them to get up on a cliff is a solution, get them separate from the army seems even better but it's situational.
Also, infestor/queen are ubber good against a fast air, you can't be completely wrong by spending some gaz on infestor i guess.
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-if the toss gets a few stalkers early, then scouting this and distinguishing it from a slower
3-gate robo seems tough.
yeah thats my concern to. At my level of play it wont factor into it though so I'm gonna do this when I can get back to playing =)
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Playing around with this it's very strong, I like it.
The primary counter/concern my friends and I found was 1 base archon / 1 base archon -> expand as silly as that sounds. A push with zealots and 1-2 archons can devastate your ling numbers and archons are useful enough vs roaches to not be an instant loss. If they've put down a bunch of spine crawlers in anticipation you can safely expand and enter into more of a macro game as you have a great setup for chargelot+ht or warp prism play.
Of note is that the person was reeeallllllllyyyy delaying their lair, and earlier lair + spine crawlers might let you hold the first push then adjust to what else you need better.
Fortunately for really fast archons the twilight council would be placed after lings come out and chase the probe away making it difficult to safely go for an archon push.
Not that it makes the build useless, but it's important to understand what can cause it some trouble.
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I have to feel like you guys are over-thinking this colossus thing.
First: 3 gate colossus is a pretty insanely uncommon build because of the costs and build times involved. While it might blind counter this build, in theory, it loses to so many other builds that very few toss are going to use it.
Second: No toss is ever going to get colossus without thermal lance.
Third: Even with colossus presenting a significant obstacle for the build, I have to feel like the threat of ling run-bys can force the toss to sit back long enough for you to muster some kind of defense.
The strength of 3 gate robo is getting a strong ground army with immortal support to blast through static defense and armored units. If you try using colossi instead, you have to wait for another tech structure to warp in before you can even start unit production, and they build sooo slow that by the time 2 are out, a Zerg player using this build should really be closing in on his hive tech.
Now there's certainly a timing window between hitting hive and ultras actually spawning that toss might be able to hit, but that's why you threaten aggression with all your lings.
And again, 50-60 pop of lings is sooo much. One misstep with his colossi, and they all die. If a player of WhiteRa's caliber can make that mistake, do you really think the scrubs on ladder won't mess up in the same way?
That said, I'm going to change gears a bit, and share a funny replay of this build:
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3376
Scrap Station is possibly the best map for this. It sure seems to work out great for Dimaga and me. In the above replay, I forgot to hotkey my natural hatchery. So when toss makes his 4 gate push, my minerals are stacking up (over 1k at one point) my army is looking small, and I'm like "wtf is going on here!?".
It wasn't until he was on top of my nat that I noticed all the larvae and spawned like 30 lings right under his feet.
The beautiful thing is, those lings were still able to clean up and win me the game.
=D
Man I love this build.
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Also you don't HAVE to go for ultras right away (though obviously it's a different build if you go for something else)
+1 attack lings with delayed lair is a good opening
Ultras with upgrades is a good middle/end
There's nothing that says you can't take that opening and put something else in there say maybe +1 attack ling -> mutas -> broodlords for example or +1 attack ling into a more traditional hydra based mid game then into ultras.
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I hate when I forget to hotkey my natural hatch. It happens like once every few weeks, but it hurts every time. I would tend to agree that a 3 gate colossus build is not that scary - the amount of colossi that can be built out of one robo can easily be dealt with by the 50 zerglings you have. And all that gas to tech means less sentries for lifesaving forcefields (not that you could protect a colossus with FF's anyway, because they knock them down).
IMO you don't even need to threaten runbys, you can just kill him.
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@ MrBitter: I agree with most of your points, but I think you underestimate a bit just how early a toss can get collosi. (Sandbox it if you like ... the fastest you can get one + about 4 zealots is ca. 6:40. If you do something more reasonable and time the collosus to pop @8:30, you can have a good econ with a sentry, some stalkers and lots of zealots for support.)
In any case, why wouldn't the toss do some sort of fast colossus build once he scouts an expansion+evo chamber? So, he starts 1-2 extra gates after the cybercore and if he sees that you will go with lots of zerglings he builds a robo.
Btw, you save two crono boosts to build them faster.
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I've been doing
14 gas
14 pool
16 queen/speed
Then evo chamber and +1 armor then +1 attack. I'm getting in this habit because it's going to be very useful against siege tanks post 1.1 and still just as useful as it is now vs zealots. 34 damage siege shots a ling will survive.
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1 Colossus and 4 Zealots will die so easily to mass +1 lings. Really. The strength of the colossus is its range. If you dont have enough stuff to block between the colossus and the enemies units they die fast.
To underline my argument i just tested 24 +1 Attack Lings with speed against 4 Zealots and 1 Colossus with range upgrade. 8 Lings survived.
Things get worse as the colossi stack up and you dont want to engage him near high grounds at all, but i guess till he has 2-4 colossi of one base you shouldve a way better eco, lairtech units and +1 carapace coming (You really dont want to loose the upgrade battle in PvZ)
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@peon.power: The 1 colossus + 4 zealots was an extreme example ... obviously no one would tech that But the point is that the timings for colosi and ultras are nowhere close, so it seems like a reasonable counter. If you look at more recent HuK games, he almost always gets an early robo for scouting purposes and goes from there.
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mmhh what would be the best time to squeeze in another evo for dual upgrades?
+1 attack is def a huge help against the 1armor P units but you never want to fall behind on armor upgrades. since the build doesnt need much gas at all for the majority of the game couldnt you start a 2nd evo pretty soon like when the lair started morphing?
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On September 09 2010 03:37 Roconar wrote:
@ MrBitter: I agree with most of your points, but I think you underestimate a bit just how early a toss can get collosi. (Sandbox it if you like ... the fastest you can get one + about 4 zealots is ca. 6:40. If you do something more reasonable and time the collosus to pop @8:30, you can have a good econ with a sentry, some stalkers and lots of zealots for support.)
In any case, why wouldn't the toss do some sort of fast colossus build once he scouts an expansion+evo chamber? So, he starts 1-2 extra gates after the cybercore and if he sees that you will go with lots of zerglings he builds a robo.
Btw, you save two crono boosts to build them faster.
Care to explain how a toss is going to reliably get a scout in at that stage of the game?
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We all know that T3 is really strong against Protoss, so it's only natural that people try to find a "suave" way to tech that high. The first game I saw of this strategy (apparently not listed in the op) was Dimaga vs HuK on Kula's Ravine where he lost to mass Zealot and Sentries. The difference here was that HuK got +1 Weapon not scouted by Zerg and was possibly already expecting this play from him, as he didn't build a single Stalker the entire game. When DIMAGA got his Ultras out it was already too late.
So, while I really do like the idea behind this strategy, I don't think it's solid enough and works most of the time because people have never seem it. As they adapt and get only Zealots, Protoss will have the upper hand, since the efectiveness of Zealots against Zerglings increases as their numbers grow.
Found the game:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-147423.jpg)
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dimaga doing this build right now against kiwikaki in game 3.
Edit: Dimaga killed off a zealot push early but lost to dark templars.
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Damn, beat me to it 
Interestingly, he didn't take his natural until he made a LOT of zerglings...possibly a response to the chronod zealots and the wide open nat?
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On September 09 2010 04:14 phfantunes wrote:
As they adapt and get only Zealots, Protoss will have the upper hand, since the efectiveness of Zealots against Zerglings increases as their numbers grow.
Fortunately for the zerg, the effectiveness of banelings grows as zealot numbers grow as well.
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On September 09 2010 04:57 Johnny_Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 04:14 phfantunes wrote:
As they adapt and get only Zealots, Protoss will have the upper hand, since the efectiveness of Zealots against Zerglings increases as their numbers grow.
Fortunately for the zerg, the effectiveness of banelings grows as zealot numbers grow as well.
Maybe, but to kill 1 Zealot you need 5 Banelings, which translates as 125/125. I'm guessing here, but the splash radius of the explosion could hit maybe 4-5 Zealots? I'm not so sure that's a good trade-off. I'd also consider that this build uses almost no gas at all, so Banelings are kind of off and would delay your Ultras by a lot.
You do make a valid point, but I overall just hate Banelings vs P. If a tech switch in reaction to mass Zealots is necessary, I'd prefer going Roaches.
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On September 09 2010 05:05 phfantunes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 04:57 Johnny_Vegas wrote:On September 09 2010 04:14 phfantunes wrote:
As they adapt and get only Zealots, Protoss will have the upper hand, since the efectiveness of Zealots against Zerglings increases as their numbers grow.
Fortunately for the zerg, the effectiveness of banelings grows as zealot numbers grow as well. Maybe, but to kill 1 Zealot you need 5 Banelings, which translates as 125/125. I'm guessing here, but the splash radius of the explosion could hit maybe 4-5 Zealots? I'm not so sure that's a good trade-off. I'd also consider that this build uses almost no gas at all, so Banelings are kind of off and would delay your Ultras by a lot. You do make a valid point, but I overall just hate Banelings vs P. If a tech switch in reaction to mass Zealots is necessary, I'd prefer going Roaches.
But sentries can completely screw roaches if it's mass sentry/zealot. Banelings good vs light means they'd counter both sentries and zealots, and yes it's fairly worth it as the splash allows you to just run over the enemy and completely turns around the "more zealots more effective" mentality.
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G3 was going pretty well for Dimaga until those DTs focused the nat hatch, really nice play by kiwikaki.
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I've always thought that this type of build was somewhat standard against a straight robo player. It's pretty much what I've done since release, aside from scouting to possibly mix in Hydras if required for air threats. Lings are incredibly strong vs all robo up to Colossi, in which case Ultras (or Roaches if they come earlier) are the ideal unit to counteract that respond.
With that said, I'm a bit disappointed after reading thru and checking the replays. Why? Well... this strat is more focused to help Zerg against builds we were already strong against, rather than addressing the current builds that are difficult.
Zerg has always been able to tear up Stalker-based play - lings are so cheap and allows you to spend the extra gas on teching.
The primary issue that I (and the Zerg players that I know) have been struggling with, is 2-gate Zealot pressure in to 4-gate. Especially since Blizz announced the patch notes with the Zealot changes - it's like all the Protoss are taking advantage of them before the nerf comes thru. This strat sadly leaves us vulnerable to this common strategy.
I know I know... just transition to Roaches. But there are a few problems with that. Sure Roaches will work if they do 2gate in to early aggression, but it will usually delay or prevent the early expansion, which is where Zerg really gets screwed.
To make it a bit worse, Protoss are not forced in to that aggression. I've found they send a small skirmish to harass ur expand, and once thats done and they force Roaches, they see that you went Roaches and simply delay the actual push. At this point, your screwed as they transition in to 4-gate pressure and ur stuck w/ an economy that's far behind. You may have been able to defend that push they set up at that time, but since they delayed it your screwed.
It sucks because this problem in early game is obvious if you check the graphs at the end of the game. If your resource collection graph is anywhere near to theirs your unit graph will be far behind, if your army graph is on par with theirs your resource collection graph will be behind, which leads to your army graph declining as the game goes longer.
Now I know in a week or so Blizz is going to be releasing the patch that will weaken the Protoss early game, but I don't think that's an acceptable reason to stop trying to figure out how to counteract it now.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to adjust a similar build to counteract 2gate in to 4gate Zealot/sentry pressure, rather than Stalker pressure?
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I find this build to be much more reliable then standard ling->roach->hydra. I need to practice it worse, and practicing on ladder is annoying b/c people play their best builds. I LOVE how you insta- win if the toss 4gates.
This will be my standard once i can practice it more :D
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I'm a low diamond player, and I just want to say that this build is pretty taxing macro-wise. I've lost quite a few games early because I didn't spawn larva in time and didn't have enough larvae to spam Zerglings (which eat up larvae like anybody's business), or I end up supply blocking myself.
Not sure if it's the build itself or just my poor macro skills showing, but it seems to be a lot more apparent for this build than the usual Roach-Hydra/Muta-ling builds.
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On September 09 2010 07:44 archon256 wrote:
I'm a low diamond player, and I just want to say that this build is pretty taxing macro-wise. I've lost quite a few games early because I didn't spawn larva in time and didn't have enough larvae to spam Zerglings (which eat up larvae like anybody's business), or I end up supply blocking myself.
Not sure if it's the build itself or just my poor macro skills showing, but it seems to be a lot more apparent for this build than the usual Roach-Hydra/Muta-ling builds.
Yeah it's pretty unforgiving if you can't keep up with the macro, but maybe try adding another hatchery in your main or nat since you won't really be able to spend all your minerals if you aren't hitting your injects regularly.
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On September 09 2010 07:44 archon256 wrote:
I'm a low diamond player, and I just want to say that this build is pretty taxing macro-wise. I've lost quite a few games early because I didn't spawn larva in time and didn't have enough larvae to spam Zerglings (which eat up larvae like anybody's business), or I end up supply blocking myself.
Not sure if it's the build itself or just my poor macro skills showing, but it seems to be a lot more apparent for this build than the usual Roach-Hydra/Muta-ling builds.
If you have this much trouble keeping up with your queens and ovies so early in the game, you really need to just go spend some time in a build order tester, and iron that out. Lings are fragile, so if you end up being stuck with 25 instead of 50, you're going to find that the build loses all viability. However, you shouldn't let your weak macro be an excuse to use different play styles. Force yourself to use builds that are hard to execute. That way, after you've perfected those builds, you'll find that you're overall mechanics have gotten better too.
Now, side-step:
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3386
This BO vs. a zealot/archon/sentry/stalker push. It also gets bonus points for the toss being so darn angry at the end.
He pushes around 8:30 with 5 zeals, an archon, 3 stalkers, 2 sentries, and, of course, reinforcements to follow.
This push was not hard to stop at all. I had 48 lings when he left his base, and, including my reinforcements, 41 after cleaning up his push. (I lost about 20 in the fight, but replacing lings is ezmode.)
Now if toss pushes with purely zeal archon, it might be a little scarier. 12 zlots, 2-3 archons... Kind of reminiscent of some BW PvZ timing pushes... That said, that kind of push would come later, would be easy to scout (no anti air) and could probably be easily squashed by adding 3-5 spines.
And one more side-step:
I'm going to start experimenting with an in-base hatch before lair. I'm finding that I always have excess minerals that DO get used up eventually, but that would probably be better served by being turned into a hatch as soon as its available. Also gives me a place to dump energy, as my injects are faaar from perfect. (lol 100+ energy at the end of ^^ that replay.)
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Been doing this my past few games vs protoss and i have won all of them. Basically drone hard and mass lings + queens for any air. If they get collosi usually your lings can beat it easily, and if not, you have plenty of gas to throw down a spire and get some corroptors out. Just keep your opponent scouted and it should be any easy win for zerg if they macro it right.
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@MrBitter: I take a quick 3rd and mass spine crawlers, after showing my lings and establishing map control and during the hive tech. Having a 3rd expo just for gas might help you spend your money.
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How early do you suggest 2nd evo chamber? ASAP during drone pump?
-edit
also this makes me want them to remove ram via patch now, annoying to only be able to attack one building at a time (60 with splash v 75, what were they thinking?)
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On September 09 2010 11:55 eth3n wrote:
How early do you suggest 2nd evo chamber? ASAP during drone pump?
-edit
also this makes me want them to remove ram via patch now, annoying to only be able to attack one building at a time
I try to line my 2nd evo chamber up with my 2nd round of upgrades... usually sometime around Lair finishing.
So I'll get +1, lots and lots of lings, lair, and then +2, +1 at the same time.
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On September 09 2010 12:02 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 11:55 eth3n wrote:
How early do you suggest 2nd evo chamber? ASAP during drone pump?
-edit
also this makes me want them to remove ram via patch now, annoying to only be able to attack one building at a time I try to line my 2nd evo chamber up with my 2nd round of upgrades... usually sometime around Lair finishing. So I'll get +1, lots and lots of lings, lair, and then +2, +1 at the same time.
thx
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Would a 3rd inbase hatchery be worth it since your just making so many cheap units? I imagine it'd be hard to keep your money down making T1 Zerg units even with perfect injections.
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On September 10 2010 03:00 Najda wrote:
Would a 3rd inbase hatchery be worth it since your just making so many cheap units? I imagine it'd be hard to keep your money down making T1 Zerg units even with perfect injections.
I do it all the time.
May not be necessary for the pros if they have perfect injections and timings but helps me a ton (1000 Diamond). The last D9Daily was more or less on this topic (or some very related ones) and Check drops a third in base hatchery as well (very ling heavy composition) before taking a 3rd base.
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I find this straegy very effective at my level (1000 Diamond) since 90% of the protoss players will just 1 base 4gate (sometimes transition to colossus) until they are mined out and forced to type gg.
Pro tip : Don't gas steal with this strat :D
I just lost a game where I gas steal the protoss, that forced him to make like 10 zealots and only a few stalkers for his 1st push, ofc I only had lings and spines, dumb me.
Just let the P take his 2 gas and make mass stalkers, it will be way easier to crush him :D
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I feel like a 3rd hatchery is necessary if you get decent saturation and are still playing ling-heavy. You shouldn't need a 3rd during that initial ling phase though.
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Wonder what will happen to mass lings when colossus or force shield places all over your base. Fast tech to ultra is way way way too risky.
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On September 10 2010 03:00 Najda wrote:
Would a 3rd inbase hatchery be worth it since your just making so many cheap units? I imagine it'd be hard to keep your money down making T1 Zerg units even with perfect injections.
When I'm kick'n ass with my queens, keeping their energy down, etc., I have no need for that in base hatch.
If I lose track for a second, though, there's no harm in throwing it down. It certainly doesn't hurt to do so if you've allowed your minerals to creep up.
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On September 10 2010 05:59 whomybuddy wrote:
Wonder what will happen to mass lings when colossus or force shield places all over your base. Fast tech to ultra is way way way too risky.
Have you tried this? It really sounds like you haven't and don't have any idea of the numbers of lings involved.
The other key point which is in fact the focus of day9daily 174 is the counterattack. When you see those colossi near your base, run at his. His single colossus or 2-3 zealots will get annihilated and nothing beats zerglings in a base race.
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I really, really prefer getting the pool before the gas for this build, and ZvP in general. If you find out that your opponent is 2-gating you (or god help, proxy 2-gating you) the gas will not be needed for ling speed. I dunno if this is consensus, but I feel that it's always better, if you're going for roaches, to go pool then gas.
Similarly, you don't really need the precise timing (100 gas when pool finishes) that 14-gas 14-pool offers you. Toss has no fast early harrassment units (hellions or reapers or other speedlings) that you need ling-speed super early to deal with, so you can delay it in favor of getting a stronger econ (pool first is slightly stronger)
Also, though this build might not be a be-all end-all, i'm super excited to use it a bunch, because it's gonna be damn great for laddering.
I think my main concern would be a 2-gate where the toss doesn't attack (but forces you to go roach nonetheless) and then adds on a robo and either attacks with collosus-zealot-sentry before ultras are out or expands, and goes 4-warpgate 2-robo with lots of immortals for the ultras. We'll see though, i'm definitely going to give it a solid playing.
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On September 10 2010 09:40 Lobotomist wrote:
I really, really prefer getting the pool before the gas for this build, and ZvP in general. If you find out that your opponent is 2-gating you (or god help, proxy 2-gating you) the gas will not be needed for ling speed. I dunno if this is consensus, but I feel that it's always better, if you're going for roaches, to go pool then gas.
Similarly, you don't really need the precise timing (100 gas when pool finishes) that 14-gas 14-pool offers you. Toss has no fast early harrassment units (hellions or reapers or other speedlings) that you need ling-speed super early to deal with, so you can delay it in favor of getting a stronger econ (pool first is slightly stronger)
Also, though this build might not be a be-all end-all, i'm super excited to use it a bunch, because it's gonna be damn great for laddering.
I think my main concern would be a 2-gate where the toss doesn't attack (but forces you to go roach nonetheless) and then adds on a robo and either attacks with collosus-zealot-sentry before ultras are out or expands, and goes 4-warpgate 2-robo with lots of immortals for the ultras. We'll see though, i'm definitely going to give it a solid playing.
On most maps, if you leave your lings at his front, you don't really have to make any roaches until he actually pushes. Just use the lings to spot his army, and if he commits, then que up 4-5 roach.
This way, if he does some sneaky robo switch, you've been playing your build at normally, barring the RW, and can still crush his push.
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I like the opening a lot, but I never rely my games on ultras. Frankly,
they just quite suck at this point of the game. Speedlings are absolutely awesome to start with always, but to be honest midgame/lategame strategy has to be a little more diverse. Zerg air superiority is absolfrikken awesome. Ultras, meh. Oh and this strategy has little to no use of infesters, which is bad for zerg in general.
I like IdrA play because he absolutely loves infesters.
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On September 10 2010 10:47 Zvendetta wrote:
I like IdrA play because he absolutely loves infesters.
Get outta here with your IdrA love. This thread is for Dimaga fanboys only.
; )
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On September 10 2010 10:35 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 09:40 Lobotomist wrote:
I really, really prefer getting the pool before the gas for this build, and ZvP in general. If you find out that your opponent is 2-gating you (or god help, proxy 2-gating you) the gas will not be needed for ling speed. I dunno if this is consensus, but I feel that it's always better, if you're going for roaches, to go pool then gas.
Similarly, you don't really need the precise timing (100 gas when pool finishes) that 14-gas 14-pool offers you. Toss has no fast early harrassment units (hellions or reapers or other speedlings) that you need ling-speed super early to deal with, so you can delay it in favor of getting a stronger econ (pool first is slightly stronger)
Also, though this build might not be a be-all end-all, i'm super excited to use it a bunch, because it's gonna be damn great for laddering.
I think my main concern would be a 2-gate where the toss doesn't attack (but forces you to go roach nonetheless) and then adds on a robo and either attacks with collosus-zealot-sentry before ultras are out or expands, and goes 4-warpgate 2-robo with lots of immortals for the ultras. We'll see though, i'm definitely going to give it a solid playing. On most maps, if you leave your lings at his front, you don't really have to make any roaches until he actually pushes. Just use the lings to spot his army, and if he commits, then que up 4-5 roach. This way, if he does some sneaky robo switch, you've been playing your build at normally, barring the RW, and can still crush his push.
This.
The warren isn't a terribly large investment so put it down and just keep drones on gas (earlier lair if you don't need the roaches).
As for the ultras ... I think they are a good option but the key point of this build is a good econ and upgrades early while the ling defense is cheap and very good at punishing any errors.
One of the classic problems with zerg is the inability to counter attack or punish a bad choice by the opponent, the attack upgraded lings allow a lot of this as even 8-10 in a mineral line will destroy it.
One of the strengths of zerg is building a bunch of units on short notice. The roach option is one use of it, building a hydra den can be another as can a baneling nest against Terran. Having a good econ and a bunch of hatcheries is the best way to capitalize on this advantage we have.
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On September 09 2010 12:02 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 11:55 eth3n wrote:
How early do you suggest 2nd evo chamber? ASAP during drone pump?
-edit
also this makes me want them to remove ram via patch now, annoying to only be able to attack one building at a time I try to line my 2nd evo chamber up with my 2nd round of upgrades... usually sometime around Lair finishing. So I'll get +1, lots and lots of lings, lair, and then +2, +1 at the same time.
Where are you getting all this gas? I follow dimaga's usual gas timings of 2/3/4 all being added after lair is done, and I've never been able to afford anything more than starting my 2nd up without delaying my hive by a minute or two.
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On September 10 2010 11:49 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 12:02 MrBitter wrote:On September 09 2010 11:55 eth3n wrote:
How early do you suggest 2nd evo chamber? ASAP during drone pump?
-edit
also this makes me want them to remove ram via patch now, annoying to only be able to attack one building at a time I try to line my 2nd evo chamber up with my 2nd round of upgrades... usually sometime around Lair finishing. So I'll get +1, lots and lots of lings, lair, and then +2, +1 at the same time. Where are you getting all this gas? I follow dimaga's usual gas timings of 2/3/4 all being added after lair is done, and I've never been able to afford anything more than starting my 2nd up without delaying my hive by a minute or two.
-shrug-, If you add 2nd-4th gas when you start lair, you should have an excess by the time you start hive.
Dimaga's actual style for the 2nd round of upgrades might be a little different. I haven't really scrutinized that aspect of his play. But yea... I usually have no issue start'n up both upgrades between lair and hive.
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My biggest problem: i am not able to exit my base until i have ultra. I am blocked inside my natural waiting for ultra to coem out witohut the chance to take third...is it normal ?lol
Also it seems really weak on maps like blistering or scrap sattion where the opponent can use a different path avoiding your sunkens...
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On September 10 2010 15:55 LuDwig- wrote:
My biggest problem: i am not able to exit my base until i have ultra. I am blocked inside my natural waiting for ultra to coem out witohut the chance to take third...is it normal ?lol
Also it seems really weak on maps like blistering or scrap sattion where the opponent can use a different path avoiding your sunkens...
You're doing it wrong.
You need to have 10-20 lings constantly poking at his front, and another 30-40 on the naga towers around the map. Don't even build the spines unless your front pokes reveal an extremely zealot-centric army that you're not sure you can crush.
When he pushes, fall back with your first group, and position your 2nd group in a good flanking position. Keep tabs on him the whole time. If you have spines in your nat, let him push all the way to your nat. If not, you can go for the engagement in the middle of the map - just be sure you can win. (Never initiate a fight that you're not sure you can win)
After he's pushed out far enough, surround with your lings and obliterate his push.
Pretty solid example of this can be seen here: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3270
After you squash the first push, resume poking at his front with your 10-20 lings, while retaking the naga towers with the rest of your army.
When ultras pop, push for the win.
edit:
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3445
This might be a better example. ^^ Couple of pretty decent surround in that rep. Also shows how take'n an early 3rd is not always a great idea for Z.
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since this build is ling intensive, i have some semi-relevant questions about melee weapon/adrenal upgrades...
Clearly I will have +3 ground armor for ultras by the time I move out with my first wave, however I am wondering how far I should go with ground weapons, and whether or not I should get adrenal glands...
Anyone know the math on what would be a better choice? both 200/200, but +3 ground weapons is 220 seconds whereas adrenal are 130 (clearly they can be upgraded concurrently). I am wondering if these upgrades are worth waiting for or if they are unnecessary. I know ultras will benefit moderately from +3 weapons but i dunno.
Still figuring out how to time 2nd evo chamber properly to be set up for ultra push
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I don't have any math, but once you hit hive, you're going to have a pile of money. Make that first wave of ultras, and then start every upgrade you can afford. There's just no reason not to.
If you're comparing +3 attack to adrenal glands, the attack speed is going to win.
+3 = lings do 8 damage
Adrenal Glands = 20% attack speed - essentially 20% more damage. 7*1.2 = 8.4. This is napkin math, and I could be completely off with it. I'm an English major, after all.
As for waiting for the upgrades to finish - no, don't do that. One of the builds strengths is the fast ultras. You really want to do damage as soon as they pop.
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what do you guys do if you scout starports? this is the one drawback. at my level (im like 5th in my plat division) void rays are fairly common (1 in 3 or 4 toss i play goes vr). What is the correct response? especially if i was trying to do this ling heavy dimaga build. if i want to tech switch to air i think mutas are better against vr then corrupter right?
One problem i have is not scouting this early enough. but sometimes i do scout it in what seems like a reasonable amount of time and i still get crushed.
edit: one thing i could do is send my lings to his base when i see vr's coming.
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I just make 3-4 queens every time vs a toss, and add maybe 2 more if I scout a stargate. It will deflect most cheesy void ray rushes and leave you in a good position to continue to win the game. I usually don't even go for hive when I defend the initial 2-3-4 void rays, I just pump 20 hydras and push out with them and the lings and win since the void rays usually mean there isn't much of a ground army with void rays being as expensive as they are.
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One thing I don't understand about this and other builds like it is it seems like you're sacrificing a lot of minerals/timing early only to pull drones off gas later. If you aren't going to get speed until after the expansion, why not build refinery later or only put 1 drone on it.
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On September 11 2010 09:44 fantomex wrote:
One thing I don't understand about this and other builds like it is it seems like you're sacrificing a lot of minerals/timing early only to pull drones off gas later. If you aren't going to get speed until after the expansion, why not build refinery later or only put 1 drone on it.
What? It's a regular 14/14 with speed as soon as you have 100 gas.
On September 11 2010 08:35 Vaporized wrote:
what do you guys do if you scout starports? this is the one drawback. at my level (im like 5th in my plat division) void rays are fairly common (1 in 3 or 4 toss i play goes vr). What is the correct response? especially if i was trying to do this ling heavy dimaga build. if i want to tech switch to air i think mutas are better against vr then corrupter right?
One problem i have is not scouting this early enough. but sometimes i do scout it in what seems like a reasonable amount of time and i still get crushed.
edit: one thing i could do is send my lings to his base when i see vr's coming.
If you haven't scouted the stargates but just want to be relatively safe vs them, just get a 3rd/4th queen when you can afford it. If you're 100% sure it's 2stargates just throw down a hydra den and play from there.
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I guess I misread the OP it looked like expansion followed by speed.
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cool! i'll have to try this out.
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On September 11 2010 09:48 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 09:44 fantomex wrote:
One thing I don't understand about this and other builds like it is it seems like you're sacrificing a lot of minerals/timing early only to pull drones off gas later. If you aren't going to get speed until after the expansion, why not build refinery later or only put 1 drone on it. What? It's a regular 14/14 with speed as soon as you have 100 gas. Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 08:35 Vaporized wrote:
what do you guys do if you scout starports? this is the one drawback. at my level (im like 5th in my plat division) void rays are fairly common (1 in 3 or 4 toss i play goes vr). What is the correct response? especially if i was trying to do this ling heavy dimaga build. if i want to tech switch to air i think mutas are better against vr then corrupter right?
One problem i have is not scouting this early enough. but sometimes i do scout it in what seems like a reasonable amount of time and i still get crushed.
edit: one thing i could do is send my lings to his base when i see vr's coming. If you haven't scouted the stargates but just want to be relatively safe vs them, just get a 3rd/4th queen when you can afford it. If you're 100% sure it's 2stargates just throw down a hydra den and play from there.
I just want to comment that having a hydra den and ranged upgrades (eventually) on the way is really good when you're planning on ultras, because one response to mass ultraling is to get void rays, which own given that your composition has zero AA. And we all know how hydras do against void rays, so it's a good safety net to have even if you see only one stargate (if that one stargate continuously produces phoenixes it can get almost as bad as if there were 2 stargates in that you can't make queens to keep up with it).
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The truth of the matter is, unless Toss proxies his stargates, you should never be surprised by them. Right now maps are pretty small. As a side effect of this, mains are also pretty small. Between what you scout with your drone, what you can see at the front with lings, and how much of a main you can scout my saccing an overlord, there is absolutely no reason to ever get surprised by an inbase Stargate play.
And even if he does proxy his stargates, his main should still scream "I'm up to something get more queens!!!".
Does he have 2 gas, 2 gates, and no additional tech structures? Guess what Toss's only viable option is...
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Gonna' give this a little bump since its fallen to page 4.
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I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games.
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On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games.
You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push.
If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door.
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On September 11 2010 06:53 MrBitter wrote:
I don't have any math, but once you hit hive, you're going to have a pile of money. Make that first wave of ultras, and then start every upgrade you can afford. There's just no reason not to.
If you're comparing +3 attack to adrenal glands, the attack speed is going to win.
+3 = lings do 8 damage
Adrenal Glands = 20% attack speed - essentially 20% more damage. 7*1.2 = 8.4. This is napkin math, and I could be completely off with it. I'm an English major, after all.
As for waiting for the upgrades to finish - no, don't do that. One of the builds strengths is the fast ultras. You really want to do damage as soon as they pop.
It is only about 18% more damage actually, the tooltip isn't accurate. Adrenaline glands changes the zerg attack speed from 0.696, to 0.587.
So, DPS for +2 without AG:
7 damage / 0.696 seconds = 10.06 dps
DPS for +2 and Adrenaline glands:
7 damage / 0.587 seconds = 11.93 dps
DPS for +3 no AG:
8 damage / 0.696 seconds = 11.49 dps
DPS for +3 +AG:
8 damage / 0.587 seconds = 13.63 dps
So, if we are playing theorycraft, it is better to just get Adrenaline glands, however since you are getting Ultra's +6(+6 to armored) looks a lot scarier than +4(+4 to armored) does... So i personally would place the +1.43 ling DPS increase in addition to the +2.32(+2.32 to armored) DPS increase for the ultra over the adrenaline glands upgrade.
I mean, that 0.4 dps can build up when you have a ton of lings, but as you have Ultras, that removes a ton of ling surface area anyway.
/shrug
So personally, if i had to choose between the two, i would choose the +3 attack upgrade.
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On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games. You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push. If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door.
I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason.
The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79177-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Edited with replay.
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ty for the maths. Numbers increase dramatically when you consider Ultra aoe, too.
edit:
On September 13 2010 07:20 sooch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games. You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push. If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door. I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason. The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work.
I would agree with this. It really comes down to scouting, though. If I get a real sense of aggression from the P, I'll start lings at 25/26. If I feel like he's being more complacent, or if I see that he's getting lots of stalkers, I'll wait til 29/30.
It's a fine line, I guess. =D
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On September 13 2010 07:23 MrBitter wrote:ty for the maths. Numbers increase dramatically when you consider Ultra aoe, too. edit: Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:20 sooch wrote:On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games. You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push. If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door. I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason. The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work. I would agree with this. It really comes down to scouting, though. If I get a real sense of aggression from the P, I'll start lings at 25/26. If I feel like he's being more complacent, or if I see that he's getting lots of stalkers, I'll wait til 29/30. It's a fine line, I guess. =D
I posted a replay so you can see if maybe there was something else I did wrong that was a larger contributor to the loss than waiting 4-5 supply too late to start pumping lings.
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On September 13 2010 07:27 sooch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:23 MrBitter wrote:ty for the maths. Numbers increase dramatically when you consider Ultra aoe, too. edit: On September 13 2010 07:20 sooch wrote:On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games. You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push. If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door. I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason. The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work. I would agree with this. It really comes down to scouting, though. If I get a real sense of aggression from the P, I'll start lings at 25/26. If I feel like he's being more complacent, or if I see that he's getting lots of stalkers, I'll wait til 29/30. It's a fine line, I guess. =D I posted a replay so you can see if maybe there was something else I did wrong that was a larger contributor to the loss than waiting 4-5 supply too late to start pumping lings.
Liked a lot of what I saw. You scouted well, and knew exactly what was coming. You did start pump'n lings pretty late. One thing I've been doing lately: Never pump drones from the nat. Once that hatch comes up, maynard 4-5 drones over, and go heavy into ling pump mode.
Still, I feel like you would have held that had you controlled your units a bit differently. I also would like to have seen 1-2 more spines sooner.
I like that you tried to split some lings off to go to his base, but I would have liked it more if you had used them to kill his forward pylon.
Ultimately, I think you lost that game because you let all your lings get tanked by zealots. Gotta' surround those stalkers. Only one stalker took ANY damage in that fight.
edit: You also booger your surround pretty badly. =p The lings you brought from behind just ran past the fight and made camp behind your natural minerals.
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Yeah I pretty much saw the same thing. I guess I'll just pump lings 3-4 supply earlier and see what happens. My favourite part of this build has to be how you end up with incredible upgrades so early in the game...orange weapons look so much cooler than green weapons
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To the people saying what about air, that question or a similar one could be asked about ANY build... What if? You don't take this BO and follow it like a bible every single game you play, you use this build when it's appropriate and don't use it when it's not, duh.
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I was inspired by Dimaga and so, read this thread.. and did a little twist....
BTW.. im just a Platinum player... Dont expect much but seems to be working... hehe
i start out with
9 OV
13 Gas
13 Pool
Queen when pool pops
1 larva for a pair of lings(use this to sit outside his base or do a scout on what his door looks like)
Get ling speed for 1st 100 gas...
Get Evo chamber when you upgrade speed...
Usually start pumping lings around 19 or 20 supply
Upgrade your ling when EVO pops
Just to be safe. I usually place 1 Spore behind my mineral line. 1 Queen n 1 Spore =anti Dark/Vray/Banshee.
This is where you react:
Vs. Terrans (+1 Attack) usually i expand tech up n get banelings after this(most of the time.. i got map control) no way in hell he can expand with upgraded speedlings running around.
Vs. Protoss (+1 Carapace) either he has attempted to get collusis coz he saw my number of lings. or air.. which is easily countered by Mutas/Corruptor.. Run your OV over its base hehehe.. worth the 100 min.. or maybe a Overseer.. just let it ran pass.. Contaminate his gateway hehehe
Vs. Zerg (+1 Attack) i'd go baneling, and tech up to Muta while trying to kill him or forcing him to make inferior lings to counter my power lings. trickiest of them all.. yeah. i've tried this with someone going mass roach.. you just have to do a surround, just like sniping a zealot. A good surround can kill a roach with minimal damage to you. my lings seems to have survived and it was all downhill for him after that. The weakness of the roaches.. is speed. the lings snipes drones then runs, snipes the queen, and just plays tag in his camp. unless Mutas gets in on the battle, its GG when you can get 1 baneling into his mineral line.
IMPT part: when you speed upgrade the lings.. throw down your EVO.
by the time it pops you'll have a 100++ gas.. this is where you make a decision.. attack or carapace..?? for me.. vs Protoss.. i go carapace (to counter its +1 attack so that my lings wont die with just 2 hits) and vs Terran +1 attack. Although in the end.. i usually end up with +1 on both.
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This build order seems awesome, but if he goes 2 stargate phoenix I think you will die because there is no way to scout it in time. 
I mean, on some maps you really can't scout their entire main if they cover the edges with a stalker or two. On Lost Temple for example, a Protoss could easily hide two stargates.
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On September 13 2010 11:28 sandman_sy wrote:I was inspired by Dimaga and so, read this thread.. and did a little twist.... BTW.. im just a Platinum player... Dont expect much but seems to be working... hehe i start out with 9 OV 13 Gas 13 Pool Queen when pool pops 1 larva for a pair of lings(use this to sit outside his base or do a scout on what his door looks like) Get ling speed for 1st 100 gas... Get Evo chamber when you upgrade speed... Usually start pumping lings around 19 or 20 supply Upgrade your ling when EVO pops Just to be safe. I usually place 1 Spore behind my mineral line. 1 Queen n 1 Spore =anti Dark/Vray/Banshee. This is where you react: Vs. Terrans (+1 Attack) usually i expand tech up n get banelings after this(most of the time.. i got map control) no way in hell he can expand with upgraded speedlings running around. Vs. Protoss (+1 Carapace) either he has attempted to get collusis coz he saw my number of lings. or air.. which is easily countered by Mutas/Corruptor.. Run your OV over its base hehehe.. worth the 100 min.. or maybe a Overseer.. just let it ran pass.. Contaminate his gateway hehehe Vs. Zerg (+1 Attack) i'd go baneling, and tech up to Muta while trying to kill him or forcing him to make inferior lings to counter my power lings. trickiest of them all.. yeah. i've tried this with someone going mass roach.. you just have to do a surround, just like sniping a zealot. A good surround can kill a roach with minimal damage to you. my lings seems to have survived and it was all downhill for him after that. The weakness of the roaches.. is speed. the lings snipes drones then runs, snipes the queen, and just plays tag in his camp. unless Mutas gets in on the battle, its GG when you can get 1 baneling into his mineral line. IMPT part: when you speed upgrade the lings.. throw down your EVO. by the time it pops you'll have a 100++ gas.. this is where you make a decision.. attack or carapace..?? for me.. vs Protoss.. i go carapace (to counter its +1 attack so that my lings wont die with just 2 hits) and vs Terran +1 attack. Although in the end.. i usually end up with +1 on both.
You need an expansion dude.
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On September 13 2010 12:15 vOddy wrote:This build order seems awesome, but if he goes 2 stargate phoenix I think you will die because there is no way to scout it in time. I mean, on some maps you really can't scout their entire main if they cover the edges with a stalker or two. On Lost Temple for example, a Protoss could easily hide two stargates.
This has only been covered about a hundred times in this thread. If you can't scout stargate tech, you're bad. End of discussion.
edit:
(unless its proxied)
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hm, I like the sound of this, i'm going to have to give it a shot. Too bad at lower levels all protoss do is cannon rush , oh well, guess i'll just focus on scouting!
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Biggest problem i see in PvZ as a zerg with a build similar to this is vs a good player with forcefield placement with some sort of warpgate push. I've lost fights where hes whacked down lets say 5-8 forcefields all around my swarm of lings (i do a full surround from 2 sides with anything from 30-60 lings). The lings end up getting caught in and seem to stack on each other(bug?) and don't attack just other then die
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On September 13 2010 07:20 sooch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games. You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push. If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door. I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason. The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79177-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsEdited with replay.
Hopefully this doesn't come off as too mean, but here I go:
-First off, your build was just awful. I don't know if 13/13 is your normal but it's just all around worse than 14/14 if you ask me
-You went 10 ovie instead of 9, wasn't it proven a while ago that 9ovie is the better opening economically? Also, I've never really seen someone do that extractor trick, but w/e.
-It's a small thing, but around 14-15 supply you have 3 patches that aren't being mined, yet you have 6 drones mining the 3 right-most patches. Automine is great but it doesn't correct for that stuff, you need to manually adjust that stuff.
-Here's where you build just becomes a disaster. First of all, pull 2 drones off gas once you start speed, you don't need your next 100 gas for a while, and it's more important to start your 2nd hatchery, 2nd queen, and more drones.
-You take your nat at 18, which I just don't understand. You cut way too many drones for my liking. Instead, try pulling 2 drones off gas, keep on droning, start your nat hatch at 21, then start your evo and and 2nd queen once you have the minerals.
-Your still cutting drones, this time to get your 2nd queen out
-You had 124 gas for over a minute before you needed it. All that could have been more mining time on minerals.
-You made an ovie at 21/26 for some reason, at least 3 drones before you needed it.
-Your flanking lings completely ran past the battle, it happens, but it hurt you a ton.
-You need to split your lings into 2 groups in your nat, then just run them all into a surround. Instead you just a-moved them right into the zealots while the stalkers sat there and dished out damage.
You seem like an ok player but your build was just so god damn inefficient. I just did a few dry-runs to test your unit counts against a propely executed BO, and you are behind on drones virtually the entire game. The actual build should look something like this:
9ovie
14gas
14pool
15ovie
pool finishes:
queen, speed, 2lings, 2drones off gas
21hatchery
drones back on gas
24queen / start melee up / pull 2 drones off gas
start massing lings whenever you feel you need to. Like the OP says 26-30 is good. Also, I tend to use my first 25energy with my first queen to spawn creep since you don't need to larvae that early.
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I have been working on this build (and transitions from it). I find making a bunch of queens to be a great idea regardless. Also, don't skimp on the spine crawlers against a 4 gate.
In my experience you can get an extra batch of drones out and drop 4 spine crawlers (so you have an extra 4-5 drones) while making about 20 fewer lings. 4-5 Queens on 2 base help destroy 4 gate pushes (transfusing the crawlers and supporting lings) and prevents a couple of void rays ruining your day.
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Are you telling me you tranfuse your lings, sorry but I will never be that damn good.
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On September 13 2010 13:38 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:20 sooch wrote:On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games. You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push. If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door. I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason. The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79177-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsEdited with replay. Hopefully this doesn't come off as too mean, but here I go: -First off, your build was just awful. I don't know if 13/13 is your normal but it's just all around worse than 14/14 if you ask me -You went 10 ovie instead of 9, wasn't it proven a while ago that 9ovie is the better opening economically? Also, I've never really seen someone do that extractor trick, but w/e. -It's a small thing, but around 14-15 supply you have 3 patches that aren't being mined, yet you have 6 drones mining the 3 right-most patches. Automine is great but it doesn't correct for that stuff, you need to manually adjust that stuff. -Here's where you build just becomes a disaster. First of all, pull 2 drones off gas once you start speed, you don't need your next 100 gas for a while, and it's more important to start your 2nd hatchery, 2nd queen, and more drones. -You take your nat at 18, which I just don't understand. You cut way too many drones for my liking. Instead, try pulling 2 drones off gas, keep on droning, start your nat hatch at 21, then start your evo and and 2nd queen once you have the minerals. -Your still cutting drones, this time to get your 2nd queen out -You had 124 gas for over a minute before you needed it. All that could have been more mining time on minerals. -You made an ovie at 21/26 for some reason, at least 3 drones before you needed it. -Your flanking lings completely ran past the battle, it happens, but it hurt you a ton. -You need to split your lings into 2 groups in your nat, then just run them all into a surround. Instead you just a-moved them right into the zealots while the stalkers sat there and dished out damage. You seem like an ok player but your build was just so god damn inefficient. I just did a few dry-runs to test your unit counts against a propely executed BO, and you are behind on drones virtually the entire game. The actual build should look something like this: 9ovie 14gas 14pool 15ovie pool finishes: queen, speed, 2lings, 2drones off gas 21hatchery drones back on gas 24queen / start melee up / pull 2 drones off gas start massing lings whenever you feel you need to. Like the OP says 26-30 is good. Also, I tend to use my first 25energy with my first queen to spawn creep since you don't need to larvae that early.
-14/14 is my standard but I 13/13 on steppes/xelnaga because they're small and 15 feels too late to pool against a 2gate
-I overlord on 10, scout on 11 with extractor trick drone, I'm aware of the 10 minerals I'm losing out on, I've seen the thread
-OL on 21 lets you spend all larvae from the first inject without getting capped iirc
-I'm not sure what you mean by "cutting drones"...obviously you stop producing drones to build things other than drones if you're keeping your money low. How do you build a hatchery while constantly producing drones unless you have 18+ drones already? Zergling/drone production off one base with queen requires 16 drones.
-I add 2 drones to closer patches in order to get the minerals faster, a minor thing that leads to those patches being depleted earlier but w/e
Thanks for the criticism, but I think some of it is unfounded and not keeping with the nature of the build. The micro errors were there, I definitely agree with that, but +1 Melee BARELY finishes in time for 4gate without pulling guys off gas, the build you suggested is more of a standard macro build. Note that your 21 expansion timing is actually seeming quite late and I feel it would be a liability vs 4gate.
It's fine to criticize little things, but if you really don't want to come across as a douche, it's not hard to avoid saying things like "first off, your build was awful." I'm not a super sensitive person or anything, but if you want someone to give you their best, unbiased response, it's better to use nice, unbiased language
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On September 13 2010 14:36 OdinPimphammer wrote:Are you telling me you tranfuse your lings, sorry but I will never be that damn good.
You transfuse the spine crawlers or the other queens. The queen's energy can also be useful to the lings in the form of creep tumors mind you. when you have a good creep spread it makes it very hard for the toss to attack because you get a speed boost and he can't place proxy pylons on the creep (you also get good vision without risking overlords to the stalkers).
4-5 queens with a fair bit of energy (spread between them, don't always inject larvae with the same one) can hold off a LOT.
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On September 13 2010 14:57 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 14:36 OdinPimphammer wrote:Are you telling me you tranfuse your lings, sorry but I will never be that damn good. 4-5 queens with a fair bit of energy (spread between them, don't always inject larvae with the same one) can hold off a LOT.
^^ Really good advice.
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On September 13 2010 14:54 sooch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 13:38 sixghost wrote:On September 13 2010 07:20 sooch wrote:On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games. You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push. If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door. I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason. The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79177-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsEdited with replay. Hopefully this doesn't come off as too mean, but here I go: -First off, your build was just awful. I don't know if 13/13 is your normal but it's just all around worse than 14/14 if you ask me -You went 10 ovie instead of 9, wasn't it proven a while ago that 9ovie is the better opening economically? Also, I've never really seen someone do that extractor trick, but w/e. -It's a small thing, but around 14-15 supply you have 3 patches that aren't being mined, yet you have 6 drones mining the 3 right-most patches. Automine is great but it doesn't correct for that stuff, you need to manually adjust that stuff. -Here's where you build just becomes a disaster. First of all, pull 2 drones off gas once you start speed, you don't need your next 100 gas for a while, and it's more important to start your 2nd hatchery, 2nd queen, and more drones. -You take your nat at 18, which I just don't understand. You cut way too many drones for my liking. Instead, try pulling 2 drones off gas, keep on droning, start your nat hatch at 21, then start your evo and and 2nd queen once you have the minerals. -Your still cutting drones, this time to get your 2nd queen out -You had 124 gas for over a minute before you needed it. All that could have been more mining time on minerals. -You made an ovie at 21/26 for some reason, at least 3 drones before you needed it. -Your flanking lings completely ran past the battle, it happens, but it hurt you a ton. -You need to split your lings into 2 groups in your nat, then just run them all into a surround. Instead you just a-moved them right into the zealots while the stalkers sat there and dished out damage. You seem like an ok player but your build was just so god damn inefficient. I just did a few dry-runs to test your unit counts against a propely executed BO, and you are behind on drones virtually the entire game. The actual build should look something like this: 9ovie 14gas 14pool 15ovie pool finishes: queen, speed, 2lings, 2drones off gas 21hatchery drones back on gas 24queen / start melee up / pull 2 drones off gas start massing lings whenever you feel you need to. Like the OP says 26-30 is good. Also, I tend to use my first 25energy with my first queen to spawn creep since you don't need to larvae that early. -14/14 is my standard but I 13/13 on steppes/xelnaga because they're small and 15 feels too late to pool against a 2gate -I overlord on 10, scout on 11 with extractor trick drone, I'm aware of the 10 minerals I'm losing out on, I've seen the thread -OL on 21 lets you spend all larvae from the first inject without getting capped iirc -I'm not sure what you mean by "cutting drones"...obviously you stop producing drones to build things other than drones if you're keeping your money low. How do you build a hatchery while constantly producing drones unless you have 18+ drones already? Zergling/drone production off one base with queen requires 16 drones. -I add 2 drones to closer patches in order to get the minerals faster, a minor thing that leads to those patches being depleted earlier but w/e Thanks for the criticism, but I think some of it is unfounded and not keeping with the nature of the build. The micro errors were there, I definitely agree with that, but +1 Melee BARELY finishes in time for 4gate without pulling guys off gas, the build you suggested is more of a standard macro build. Note that your 21 expansion timing is actually seeming quite late and I feel it would be a liability vs 4gate. It's fine to criticize little things, but if you really don't want to come across as a douche, it's not hard to avoid saying things like "first off, your build was awful." I'm not a super sensitive person or anything, but if you want someone to give you their best, unbiased response, it's better to use nice, unbiased language
Well I was just commenting on your build, so hopefully you didn't take personal offense. Feel free to not take my advice, but I'm just relaying to info that's helped me stop 4gates in the past. I looked over some of my own replays vs 4gate, and did a few practice runs of the build, and you are about 4-5 drones behind a proper build from 5:00 on.
Also, just to drive home this point. The proper build pulls guys off gas, and STILL finishes +1 melee at least 10-20 seconds fast than your build depending on whether you start it before the ovie. Your's finished at 7:50ish, compared to 7:30 or 7:40. Getting +1 that slowly is going to kill you against a better 4gate. That guy's attack came at like 8:20, which has to be one of the latest 4gates I've ever seen still work.
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I'll try pulling guys off gas earlier then, hopefully it helps.
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I'm loving this build!
I just did it against a practice partner, and it completely obliterated his stalker-heavy force. When he went zealot/sentry, however, it was a fair bit harder to win (I lost the first few games he went that), so I tried banelings. Only 8 was what I needed, and I killed those pushes too, but on a lot more even terms than it would have been had he gone stalker. But I don't know a good timing on the baneling nest is - I was doing it ~30.
Also: Guys, stop the flame war. One person has their build they like, another has theirs, live with it. You'll win with yours, he'll win with his.
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Actually, even if I don't scout phoenixes (and I never do on Lost Temple, because it's ridiclously easy to hide the stargates in your main on that map), I can win. I have an evolution chamber so I can easily get spores. Once I even lost all of my overlords but I still won because my economy was so damn awesome from the drone whoring. You get so many drones by doing this, and because of that you get so many lings. 4 gate is a joke. I'm starting to love blistering sands because it's a free win for me now since every Protoss blindly does 4 gate on that map, and this build smacks it.
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On September 14 2010 08:53 sooch wrote:More replays vs 4gate on xelnaga - http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79986-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dnaPulled drones off gas this time, tried 14/14, I think it was pretty close to optimal with the exception of getting supply capped for a short amount of time...evo chamber and 100 gas were pretty much identical in timing. I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting the build and I should be getting hydra tech if I suspect 4gate, or if people think lings should actually be able to hold this. last replay - http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79987-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsGot supply blocked at 60 for an entire overlord...that was bad, and crawlers were also slightly late. Maybe you can get some info from it though.
The build did what it was supposed to, even though you still rushed your nat hatchery and evo chamber. Like I said earlier, you keep on cutting drones get that evo chamber, yet it doesn't get your +1 atk to finish any earlier than mine. Anyway...
You stopped drones extremely early(22), but you held off the attack really easily, yet your battle micro still left a bit to desire. One thing I've noticed in most of your replays is that you always get sunkens, yet you never wait for the protoss to attack into them before you go for the surround. You're really just wasting a drone and 100mins if you do that, plus you lose the benefit of your queen getting in on the fight.
But w/e, you won the fight easily, but after the fight was CLEARLY won (around 8:32) you still made 18 zerglings, all of which needed to be drones, especially considering how few drones you made earlier on in the game. You losing to that attack 7-8 minutes later was 100% a direct result of your crappy economy. If you had more drones you would have easily been able to afford 3-4 or even 5 more sunkens when it was clear he was 100% all-in, which would have virtually won you the game.
Do you want me to post a blank replay of the proper build?
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I accidentally posted one of the replays where I didn't take your advice to delay hatch to 21...the other one should be pretty much exactly as you described. Expo not happening until I can really afford it, 2 drones off gas when speed is started, +1 started AS SOON AS 100 gas from 1 drone was achieved, and that upgrade still didn't finish until 8:10...I'm not sure how you're getting it so early when there's only 2 things I'm spending gas on, and I'm removing drones exactly as you say.
This is the one to watch: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79987-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dna
My battle micro/choosing where to fight early/mid/late game has to be the thing I need to improve most, so that's fine and I definitely agree with that comment. MrBitter said he has been succeeding with stopping drones at ~26-28 food, which is pretty much 22 drones and 2 queens, so that's what I've been doing.
A blank replay would be good, a replay of you beating 4gate on xelnaga with this build would be even better though.
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On September 14 2010 06:46 WhoDoYouThink wrote:
I'm loving this build!
I just did it against a practice partner, and it completely obliterated his stalker-heavy force. When he went zealot/sentry, however, it was a fair bit harder to win (I lost the first few games he went that), so I tried banelings. Only 8 was what I needed, and I killed those pushes too, but on a lot more even terms than it would have been had he gone stalker. But I don't know a good timing on the baneling nest is - I was doing it ~30.
Also: Guys, stop the flame war. One person has their build they like, another has theirs, live with it. You'll win with yours, he'll win with his.
I have found you can try to force a stalker composition.
There are several ways, the first is to throw down a fast roach warren when he scouts (and even canceling it if you want). Either way you can deny scouting after the first few lings so giving false information is possible.
I would opt for roaches over banelings to stop zealot/sentry, the other option is spine crawler to tier 2 units. Generally speaking any form of early protoss play can be stopped while expending nothing but 100 gas for speed and 100 for the +1 attack (or +1 carapace for 150). I get the extra queen(s) against void ray (also helpful against 4 gate) and spine crawlers (4 ?).
Even pure zealot sentry has huge problems with zergling+spine crawler+queens (and transfusing the crawlers and good creep spread). The guardian shields are almost irrelevant, force fields get in the zealots' way more than anything (lings are there more as a threat to the sentries or as extra damage if anything tries to focus spine crawlers) and zealots do very poorly when they are against healed crawlers (especially aligned so only 2-3 zealots get in there).
This means all your gas can be put into tech, whether fast ultras, hydras, mutas or infestors.
I am actually interested in what you think about fast infestors against protoss. Where it gets really crazy is that I want to try the infestor mostly for burrowed move and ITs. This is great harass/map control, forces observers (and probably more than just the usual 1-2) while infestors can still kill observers if you spot them (fungal revealing and 2 fungals kills 100 gas worth). The protoss don't have a cheap detection option, towers are limited coverage and expensive, observers are gas heavy and extremely fragile (not to mention a tech commitment).
My favorite part of this idea is that it gets you closer to tier 3 (even just for adrenal glands ?) and isn't a huge commitment (600 gas? 4 larvae?). This allows you to still get hydras or mutas depending on how the opponent (over)reacts. The infested terrans+fungal can also perform the role of hydras in absolutely annihilating a delayed 4 gate push.
Come to think of it, 400 energy of ITs is reasonnable for 3-4 infestors and 16 ITs can annihilate a base.
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Going through my recent games, I can't find a ZvP on Xel'Naga where the toss tries to 4 gate. Seems like the trend lately is Stargates.
I will try and con one of my practice partners into letting me run over them a few times so that I can show you how I do it.
The real trick to killing zealot/sentry 4 gates is delaying the push as long as you possibly can with ling pokes, and not committing to the surround until he's in range of your spines.
As for the infestor idea - That's a little too cute for me. ; )
I'm sure someone can make it work, but I'd just end up blundering my macro and getting squashed.
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On September 14 2010 12:23 sooch wrote:I accidentally posted one of the replays where I didn't take your advice to delay hatch to 21...the other one should be pretty much exactly as you described. Expo not happening until I can really afford it, 2 drones off gas when speed is started, +1 started AS SOON AS 100 gas from 1 drone was achieved, and that upgrade still didn't finish until 8:10...I'm not sure how you're getting it so early when there's only 2 things I'm spending gas on, and I'm removing drones exactly as you say. This is the one to watch: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79987-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dnaMy battle micro/choosing where to fight early/mid/late game has to be the thing I need to improve most, so that's fine and I definitely agree with that comment. MrBitter said he has been succeeding with stopping drones at ~26-28 food, which is pretty much 22 drones and 2 queens, so that's what I've been doing. A blank replay would be good, a replay of you beating 4gate on xelnaga with this build would be even better though.
Next time I get 4gated on ladder there I'll be sure to post it. I'll edit my post when I finish the rep. Also, I'm pretty sure he said 26-28 drones, not food.
edit:
You pretty much got the build down, you just built the evo a bit too late. I get it with my first 75 mins after I start my second queen(2nd queen is usually at 22/26)
Anyway, that's a really weird 4gate style your buddy is doing. It's sort of a soft-counter to this build. To be honest, you could probably go ahead and snipe a few of those sentries when he moves out with like 7-8sentries and 2 zealots, at the very least you'd get him to waste a few FFs.
Basically his entire strategy is to mass FF your army and hopefully cut off or glitch a bunch of lings. When someone does something like this, it's even more important to wait for him to get in range of your sunkens before you go for the surround. Also, you really really can let him force you to fight against a wall like that, You're basically giving him a permanent forcement for 180 degrees of his unit ball.
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On September 14 2010 12:45 MrBitter wrote:
As for the infestor idea - That's a little too cute for me. ; )
I'm sure someone can make it work, but I'd just end up blundering my macro and getting squashed.
It is kind of a cute idea but I am wondering about just using infestors for ITs.
We lack a ranged ball units other than hydras. Hydras are cool but colossi and storms really hurt them whereas infestors can be used for other things.
I just find hydras to be a big commitment and too hard countered. Infested Terrans seem extremely cost efficient and high DPS. An infestor in this case would essentially be a unit that constantly produces more swarm for me. The fact that said units can be sneakily deployed is a bonus.
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On September 14 2010 12:52 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 12:23 sooch wrote:I accidentally posted one of the replays where I didn't take your advice to delay hatch to 21...the other one should be pretty much exactly as you described. Expo not happening until I can really afford it, 2 drones off gas when speed is started, +1 started AS SOON AS 100 gas from 1 drone was achieved, and that upgrade still didn't finish until 8:10...I'm not sure how you're getting it so early when there's only 2 things I'm spending gas on, and I'm removing drones exactly as you say. This is the one to watch: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79987-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dnaMy battle micro/choosing where to fight early/mid/late game has to be the thing I need to improve most, so that's fine and I definitely agree with that comment. MrBitter said he has been succeeding with stopping drones at ~26-28 food, which is pretty much 22 drones and 2 queens, so that's what I've been doing. A blank replay would be good, a replay of you beating 4gate on xelnaga with this build would be even better though. Next time I get 4gated on ladder there I'll be sure to post it. I'll edit my post when I finish the rep. Also, I'm pretty sure he said 26-28 drones, not food.
On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:
If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door.
Nah he said food, not drones
I'll edit my post when you edit yours 
Thanks in advance for the advice btw. What's your id/code?
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On September 14 2010 13:04 sooch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 12:52 sixghost wrote:On September 14 2010 12:23 sooch wrote:I accidentally posted one of the replays where I didn't take your advice to delay hatch to 21...the other one should be pretty much exactly as you described. Expo not happening until I can really afford it, 2 drones off gas when speed is started, +1 started AS SOON AS 100 gas from 1 drone was achieved, and that upgrade still didn't finish until 8:10...I'm not sure how you're getting it so early when there's only 2 things I'm spending gas on, and I'm removing drones exactly as you say. This is the one to watch: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79987-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dnaMy battle micro/choosing where to fight early/mid/late game has to be the thing I need to improve most, so that's fine and I definitely agree with that comment. MrBitter said he has been succeeding with stopping drones at ~26-28 food, which is pretty much 22 drones and 2 queens, so that's what I've been doing. A blank replay would be good, a replay of you beating 4gate on xelnaga with this build would be even better though. Next time I get 4gated on ladder there I'll be sure to post it. I'll edit my post when I finish the rep. Also, I'm pretty sure he said 26-28 drones, not food. Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:
If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door. Nah he said food, not drones I'll edit my post when you edit yours Thanks in advance for the advice btw. What's your id/code?
Yeah you were right, I guess I'm just greedy. Also, after watching those reps a few times, you should really find a different P to practice this build, I've never seen anyone do that build before, and it's really not the typical ladder 4gate.
sixghost.219
We can just play a few games if you're on right now.
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http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3628
I just finished playing that game. I know its not zealot/sentry, but it shows my timings on things like +1, take'n guys off gas, etc. (8:10 is when my +1 finishes)
Also notice where I chose to make that surround: In range of my spines, but not on top of them.
The biggest mistake I'm seeing through other guys in this thread is just choosing to fight your battles in bad positions.
edit:
On September 14 2010 12:23 sooch wrote:I accidentally posted one of the replays where I didn't take your advice to delay hatch to 21...the other one should be pretty much exactly as you described. Expo not happening until I can really afford it, 2 drones off gas when speed is started, +1 started AS SOON AS 100 gas from 1 drone was achieved, and that upgrade still didn't finish until 8:10...I'm not sure how you're getting it so early when there's only 2 things I'm spending gas on, and I'm removing drones exactly as you say. This is the one to watch: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79987-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dnaMy battle micro/choosing where to fight early/mid/late game has to be the thing I need to improve most, so that's fine and I definitely agree with that comment. MrBitter said he has been succeeding with stopping drones at ~26-28 food, which is pretty much 22 drones and 2 queens, so that's what I've been doing. A blank replay would be good, a replay of you beating 4gate on xelnaga with this build would be even better though.
K, just watched this replay.
1st: Yes, this is an atypical 4 gate... But that's no biggy. (imo)
2nd: Toss leaves his base with 7 sentries and 2 zealots while you have 26 lings on the field. At that instant, you need to either run into his main, or crush him. He can have the best forcefields in the world, but if you just back up after he casts them, there's no way in hell he's going to be able to kill 26 lings with that tiny army.
But more importantly, just run into his main! It delays his push, and if you do it, you're going to inflict critical economic damage.
3rd: I really dislike your spine placement and timing. They're very late, and they're way out in front of your hatch. If he had run straight up your ramp, or straight behind your minerals, the spines would have been completely uninvolved in the fight.
In part, that's what ends up happening. One gets picked off, and the other gets dodged all together.
4th: You just can't let the Protoss fight with his back to the wall.
I'd be glad to try playing against your buddy with this build.
My Bnet ID: Flabulous, 625
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Yeah...I have a hard time picking when to engage that army because basically he wall walks all the way past the rocks to the third back to the mineral line, and fighting him there is even worse than anywhere else. Engaging him at that wall seems to be the lesser of two evils...maybe xelnaga is just bad for this build :/
7 sentries and 2 zealots actually do pretty well against 26 lings, maybe it's just RoD but it's not so easy to just bait him into using force fields that trap few or no lings. He waits until he really sees commitment to FF and I always just end up losing more than I gain. Runbys are a good thing to try, definitely, just on the off chance that they don't have anything on the ramp.
@sixghost: How is the evo late btw? It pops as soon as I get my 2nd 100 gas (unless you put 3 drones back on gas soon after starting expo, then that would explain how yours comes out faster).
I'll add both of you and see if I can get some other P's on my F list to 4gate some more.
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On September 14 2010 21:33 sooch wrote:
Yeah...I have a hard time picking when to engage that army because basically he wall walks all the way past the rocks to the third back to the mineral line, and fighting him there is even worse than anywhere else. Engaging him at that wall seems to be the lesser of two evils...maybe xelnaga is just bad for this build :/
7 sentries and 2 zealots actually do pretty well against 26 lings, maybe it's just RoD but it's not so easy to just bait him into using force fields that trap few or no lings. He waits until he really sees commitment to FF and I always just end up losing more than I gain. Runbys are a good thing to try, definitely, just on the off chance that they don't have anything on the ramp.
@sixghost: How is the evo late btw? It pops as soon as I get my 2nd 100 gas (unless you put 3 drones back on gas soon after starting expo, then that would explain how yours comes out faster).
I'll add both of you and see if I can get some other P's on my F list to 4gate some more.
I've never really experienced that strategy on xel, but maybe the solution is to just stick a sunken way over there so that it's in range of his units if he decides to hug that wall and constantly FF.
I'd have to play a couple games vs that strategy, but I'd like to try some stuff like getting 6-8 earlier zerglings and using them to try and snipe 1-2 of those sentries early on to prevent him having like 600-700 total energy once he attacks. Also, I think it would be smart to maybe make 4 sunkens in pairs of 2 and give up 2-3 pairs of lings. Sunkens seem like a huge weakness of that strategy.
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I find that a fast evo is really good against both T (+1 armor) and P (+1 attack). Especially if you throw in banelings (against T) and transition straight to infestors and (eventually) ultras.
Seriously, upgraded speedling/rollypoly/infestor is one of the best combos in the game, especially on creep; and not just in terms of unit combination but also in their macro balance (as long as you throw down an aux hatch w/ queen in your main to keep the larva count up).
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I watched some of the replay and testing the build myself I made this build, very similiar to Dimagas and the others who posted in this thread:
9 Overlord
14 Extractor
14 Spawning Pool
15 Overlord
16 Zerglings
17 Queen
19 Metabolic Boost and pull two drones of gas.
21 Hatchery
23 Queen
25 Overlord
25 Evolution Chamber
26 6 Zerglings
29 Melee Attacks Level 1 and pull last drone of gas.
29 Zerglings or Drones depending on the situation.
4 Gate: Zerglings
Expand or tech: Drones
~40 Drones to gas again
@ 100 Gas: Lair
1/3 Lair: 3 Extractors
Infestation Pit when you either defended the 4 Gate or scouted something else.
Drones, Drones, Drones if you survived the 4 Gate.
Ground Carapace Level 1 and add another Evolution Chamber and get Melee Attacks Level 2.
Hive as soon as Infestation Pit finishes.
@ Hive finish: Ultralisk Cavern and save resources for Ultralisks.
Expand, Expand and Expand.
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In the 10 pages someone might have already responded to this, but what build should I transition to if the opponent goes 2gate?
I get early Roaches and repel his early aggression but then they they turtle up and throw down some more gates (or get some collosi) for a later attack which I almost inevitably crumble to.
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On September 16 2010 01:42 Sensator wrote:
In the 10 pages someone might have already responded to this, but what build should I transition to if the opponent goes 2gate?
I get early Roaches and repel his early aggression but then they they turtle up and throw down some more gates (or get some collosi) for a later attack which I almost inevitably crumble to.
You can go roach, into roach/hydra, or you can go roach, into fast hive ultra. (basically just resuming the build after thwarting the aggression)
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I have been practicing this build against a friend of mine on Xel'naga, I was testing it against a 4gate. I am having similar problems as some others in this thread, i am unable to avoid the insta-loss. He comes in with the 4gate at around 8:00 minutes when i have 56 +1 lings and 2 spine crawlers.
I sum up my loss to poor ling control (it was quite bad). Is there anything else obvious that i am doing wrong? I messed up the build a little and got supply blocked but managed to recover before the attack happened. His unit mix is largely zealot sentry with a couple stalkers, which seems quite affective.
replay: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3713
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I feel like forcefields decrease the effectiveness of this build greatly. The lings are honestly only effective if you get a nice surround and catch the push off guard as well as snipe the proxying probe and the pylon. Otherwise he'll engage at your natural and use forcefields to either make your lings stuck or unable to attack his units while most of his will be ranged.
I have also seen dimaga do this build less and less since beta ended. Just my view though
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I'm starting to agree with Tiaan, with better control i could have done a bit better but i got owned so hard... don't know what it would take to actually win the engagement.
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My sense is that the key to this is being so active with the mass lings that your protoss opponent spends more time than he otherwise would in his base. For instance on kulas I constantly bounce back between the choke at the front and the rocks at the back, making him defend both at once. The point is not to get in, but rather to put him on the defensive while you macro hard. Even if he comes out strong, I have three or four hatches by that point and can just constantly pump a stream of zerglings. It's actually a struggle to use all of the minerals you end up having.
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On September 16 2010 15:22 pwadoc wrote:
My sense is that the key to this is being so active with the mass lings that your protoss opponent spends more time than he otherwise would in his base. For instance on kulas I constantly bounce back between the choke at the front and the rocks at the back, making him defend both at once. The point is not to get in, but rather to put him on the defensive while you macro hard. Even if he comes out strong, I have three or four hatches by that point and can just constantly pump a stream of zerglings. It's actually a struggle to use all of the minerals you end up having.
^^ This is good advice.
You have to use that mobility, you have to control your lings well, and you have to pick your battles wisely.
I crossed over the 1300 Diamond threshold yesterday, and this is the build I open with in 100% of my ZvPs.
A couple things:
The longer you delay the toss push, the more spines you're going to need.
Always be looking for an opportunity to run into the toss base.
You want to initiate your surround so that his army is in range of your spines, but not on top of them. That way your lings soak damage, while the spines dish it out.
Never let toss fight with his back to a wall.
K, now for this:
On September 16 2010 13:25 Xeiph wrote:I have been practicing this build against a friend of mine on Xel'naga, I was testing it against a 4gate. I am having similar problems as some others in this thread, i am unable to avoid the insta-loss. He comes in with the 4gate at around 8:00 minutes when i have 56 +1 lings and 2 spine crawlers. I sum up my loss to poor ling control (it was quite bad). Is there anything else obvious that i am doing wrong? I messed up the build a little and got supply blocked but managed to recover before the attack happened. His unit mix is largely zealot sentry with a couple stalkers, which seems quite affective. replay: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3713
Yea, your ling control was not the best.
1st: You need units outside his base. When he pushes out, threaten him with that run-by. It delays that push, giving you time to get more units out, and adequate spines up.
2nd: You have to get a surround. If you let him fight with his back to the wall like you did, you're going to lose every time.
3rd: I will concede that Xel'Naga Caverns is hard on this build. I'm not ready to say its impossible though. I shut down 4 gates here all the time.
4th: Get a couple more spines. I might need to make some changes to the OP, but I've been getting 3-4 spines almost every game these days.
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Can this BO be used to safely tech to mutas instead of ultras?
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On September 18 2010 05:30 Swig wrote:
Can this BO be used to safely tech to mutas instead of ultras?
Yes, I actually use this variation myself instead of fast teching to Ultralisks.
Basically when you push back the 4gate, you should be having a bit of surplus of minerals, I pump drones and take my Gas. I also always leave 1 guy at gas so you should have more then 100 for the lair. Then as money allows I just take all my gasses. Usually I get enough gas for around 5-6 Mutalisks. How you balance your drones / Zerglings after beating the 4 gate and your spire getting done, is up to you and very important, experience will make you better at this. But usually it's relatively safe to pump lots of drones.
This works greatly because Mutaling > robo bay tech especially if you start out with an advantage, which is the normal follow up to 4 gate.
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So far this build has been working GREAT for me, and i havnt used it on Scrap station yet (amazing havnt had to play on the map since i started using it). Rather effective opener, and leave you with some good options for transitions, especially if you just universally open with +armor. BUT i have only been playing against Plat players so. Currently sitting on a 7-1 record against Plat Toss since i started experimenting/using so.
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I like to use this build, but rather than take the Drones OFF gas, I keep them on, and make 2 Evolution Chambers, both at about 30 food (approx. 26 drones) This lets me get the +1 Melee and +1 Carapace at the same time.
Then it's just a matter of pumping lings to about 60 food, then pushing, and teching a lair. During the lair tech, I make my remaining 3 extractors, and pump drones from all my larvae (Injected and natural)
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I can't tell you how much this build has helped my game. My maco isn't that good, so I always drop down a second hatch in my main to keep my minerals low.
Ling mobility is probably the strongest aspect of this matchup. If you have a well defended expo, and his army is out of his base, you can go for his main.
It's also helped my ZvZ match up as well.
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Looks really good, I'll be sure to try it out
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Has anyone else played this with a baneling midgame? I like doing a similar opening vs protoss, with a baneling nest before the push comes. A 4-gate with mostly zealot+sentry is rough on speedlings, but both units are light armor type, so banelings do a lot of damage to them. +1 melee attacks are awesome for banelings too, I think it only takes 4 to kill zealots as opposed to 5 without an upgrade. It is a pretty easy tech switch and you can implement it as the enemy is moving out for your natural, provided you've got one or two extractors running. I also like 3 queens, for more aggressive creep spreading. Speedling runbys are nasty, but if you peel a couple off and morph banelings you can hurt the drones even more.
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Aw man, I'm really pissed off about reading this!
I came up with a strategy really really close to that one and I won a lot of PvPs, and now everyone is gonna learn how to counter it because everyone is gonna start doing it.
Nooooo!
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Voids are f.cking me, queens are useless against them....
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Thanks for the BO, I started to use this strategy. I can do well against 4 gate, but I cannot stop 3 Gate-1 Stargate, which result in 2 fast Voidrays. I cannot scout it, because, protoss always blocks the ramp with buildings and zealots. Overlords are too slow.
At around 7:30 Protoss can attack with 2 Voids, 8 zealots ,1-2 stalkers. Ground force is no problem for speedlings, however 2 queens cannot defend the base from 2 Voids. At that time with this BO I don't have lair for Hydra Den.
How do you manage to beat this?
Thanks in advance.
If you want I can upload a replay.
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On September 26 2010 22:18 thevassago wrote:
Thanks for the BO, I started to use this strategy. I can do well against 4 gate, but I cannot stop 3 Gate-1 Stargate, which result in 2 fast Voidrays. I cannot scout it, because, protoss always blocks the ramp with buildings and zealots. Overlords are too slow.
At around 7:30 Protoss can attack with 2 Voids, 8 zealots ,1-2 stalkers. Ground force is no problem for speedlings, however 2 queens cannot defend the base from 2 Voids. At that time with this BO I don't have lair for Hydra Den.
How do you manage to beat this?
Thanks in advance.
If you want I can upload a replay.
I'm having the exact same problem. Push looks exactly like a standard 4 gate so I usually can't see the voids until they start moving out. I've started just blindly making three queens and when I see the voids move out I sometimes have time to make 2 more, sometimes not. I've tried using spore colonies with some success but then I feel trapped in my base.
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On September 26 2010 22:42 Bull-Demon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 22:18 thevassago wrote:
Thanks for the BO, I started to use this strategy. I can do well against 4 gate, but I cannot stop 3 Gate-1 Stargate, which result in 2 fast Voidrays. I cannot scout it, because, protoss always blocks the ramp with buildings and zealots. Overlords are too slow.
At around 7:30 Protoss can attack with 2 Voids, 8 zealots ,1-2 stalkers. Ground force is no problem for speedlings, however 2 queens cannot defend the base from 2 Voids. At that time with this BO I don't have lair for Hydra Den.
How do you manage to beat this?
Thanks in advance.
If you want I can upload a replay. I'm having the exact same problem. Push looks exactly like a standard 4 gate so I usually can't see the voids until they start moving out. I've started just blindly making three queens and when I see the voids move out I sometimes have time to make 2 more, sometimes not. I've tried using spore colonies with some success but then I feel trapped in my base.
You guys just have to be super aggressive with your scouting. You should have overlords on both sides of P's base long before he's ready to push. Sac both of them if you have to. You HAVE to know what he's up to.
Blindly making the 3rd queen is fine. Another thing you can do is add 1 spore to each mineral line. Once you clean up the ground army, send lings to his base, and make his voids navigate spores.
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On September 27 2010 02:05 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 22:42 Bull-Demon wrote:On September 26 2010 22:18 thevassago wrote:
Thanks for the BO, I started to use this strategy. I can do well against 4 gate, but I cannot stop 3 Gate-1 Stargate, which result in 2 fast Voidrays. I cannot scout it, because, protoss always blocks the ramp with buildings and zealots. Overlords are too slow.
At around 7:30 Protoss can attack with 2 Voids, 8 zealots ,1-2 stalkers. Ground force is no problem for speedlings, however 2 queens cannot defend the base from 2 Voids. At that time with this BO I don't have lair for Hydra Den.
How do you manage to beat this?
Thanks in advance.
If you want I can upload a replay. I'm having the exact same problem. Push looks exactly like a standard 4 gate so I usually can't see the voids until they start moving out. I've started just blindly making three queens and when I see the voids move out I sometimes have time to make 2 more, sometimes not. I've tried using spore colonies with some success but then I feel trapped in my base. You guys just have to be super aggressive with your scouting. You should have overlords on both sides of P's base long before he's ready to push. Sac both of them if you have to. You HAVE to know what he's up to. Blindly making the 3rd queen is fine. Another thing you can do is add 1 spore to each mineral line. Once you clean up the ground army, send lings to his base, and make his voids navigate spores.
Thanks for the tip. What do you think is the optimal time to sac an overlord? Is 30 supply early enough, or should I sac one earlier?
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On September 27 2010 14:55 thevassago wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 02:05 MrBitter wrote:On September 26 2010 22:42 Bull-Demon wrote:On September 26 2010 22:18 thevassago wrote:
Thanks for the BO, I started to use this strategy. I can do well against 4 gate, but I cannot stop 3 Gate-1 Stargate, which result in 2 fast Voidrays. I cannot scout it, because, protoss always blocks the ramp with buildings and zealots. Overlords are too slow.
At around 7:30 Protoss can attack with 2 Voids, 8 zealots ,1-2 stalkers. Ground force is no problem for speedlings, however 2 queens cannot defend the base from 2 Voids. At that time with this BO I don't have lair for Hydra Den.
How do you manage to beat this?
Thanks in advance.
If you want I can upload a replay. I'm having the exact same problem. Push looks exactly like a standard 4 gate so I usually can't see the voids until they start moving out. I've started just blindly making three queens and when I see the voids move out I sometimes have time to make 2 more, sometimes not. I've tried using spore colonies with some success but then I feel trapped in my base. You guys just have to be super aggressive with your scouting. You should have overlords on both sides of P's base long before he's ready to push. Sac both of them if you have to. You HAVE to know what he's up to. Blindly making the 3rd queen is fine. Another thing you can do is add 1 spore to each mineral line. Once you clean up the ground army, send lings to his base, and make his voids navigate spores. Thanks for the tip. What do you think is the optimal time to sac an overlord? Is 30 supply early enough, or should I sac one earlier?
Here are some more tips for scouting Stargate play:
How fast did protoss take his second gas? If you see 2 geysers running with your drone scout, you need to start getting suspicious.
What do you see with your first 2 lings? You should be poking up his ramp as often as you can. Are his stalker numbers really low? Do you see a few more zealots than is normal? If the Toss ground army looks like its light on gas, you need to start getting suspicious.
How many gateways can you see? Obviously you can't always count on scouting his gateway count, but if your scout is killed, and if you see a low gateway count at the top of his ramp, then you need to start getting suspicious.
After all that, if you're still not sure what's going on, sac that overlord. 30 supply is a little bit late. You should aim to sac an overlord between 24-26 supply.
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I'm loving this strategy atm has really made ZvP enjoyable again completely catches 4 gate off guard and anything air i just go mass queen as there is an abundance of minerals with this build. My only loss with it so far is when they went fast collosi.
I've been skimming the thread for a solution but havent found a definitive answer, ive survived a few times against faster than normal but not super fast collosi by adding in roaches while teching to hive once my gas has been started again. But how do I stop this really early collosi play i tried getting roaches and muta but it seemed pretty ineffective.
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micro micro micro i got a replay of this build between me 1200zerg and a 1500toss he went for a 3gate fast collosus you just gotta get a little lucky and flank flank flank zerglings are fast for a reason also spine crawlers are your friend as much as telling you to build d leaves a foul taste in my mouth and makes me think of terran you need spine crawlers for toss.
ill upload replay when ig et home
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why are fast void rays a problem? If anything, ling/queen builds hard counter fast air due to TRANSFUSION. You should let your queens gather energy. I find that 4 queens is enough to counter any fast air.
I had P once bring 4 phoenix and 1 VR and I was able to defeat all of them with 4 queens due to transfusion (You can transfuse while Graviton Beam'd). If you can't beat fast air, then you need to learn to watch your wireframe health levels and transfuse accordingly.
Queens rock the house against VRs, but you have to let them gather enough energy to be effective. Once you get 5 - 7 queens, your base becomes an iron fortress against anything P has for air due to transfusion.
Also, against Z Queens also counter baneling heavy builds. Banelings are not cost effective against Queens even though blings have bonus damage against them. You'd have to sacrifice 5 blings (250m, 125g) to kill a Queen (150m).
So yeah, trade lings for queens and you can easily counter any fast air threat. Use the extra energy from the queens for transfusion or spread creep. Additional queens are rarely bad for Z against any opponent
Use transfusion micro with your queens to make them last longer. If you consider that a fully charged queen can repair a whopping 500 HP and you have 6 queens all full of energy, that's 3000 HP + 175 HP * 6 queens... that's a lot to punch through. It's no surprise that Blizzard labeled these guys defensive units because they are very, very good at defense.
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On September 26 2010 22:08 desh00 wrote:
Voids are f.cking me, queens are useless against them....
You have to suicide an overlord or two (At the same time usually) to scout what he's going for. Most protoss go for the 4 gate push but if they go for phoenix/void ray or fast tech collosus or some other thing you have to respond by making either hydras (Stargate) or Roaches untill you can get ultras (Collosus). No build is 1 shoe fits all but this one applies to most PvZ builds for protoss
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I'm a 1200 diamond player & i've been going over the basics again & this is one of the builds i love opening with in zvp makes me feel like the computer in single player alittle :D. I've recently been running into a really strong timing attack in zvp, where the protoss go fast expand & tech straight to col & +2-3 attack then push out. Is anyone having trouble with this? I don't have any worthy replays to post so i'm just hoping someone in mid range diamond has run into the same problem when doing this build? the col are so hard to stop.....
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teching to ultra on 2 bases? seems risky :O
going pure zergling isn't that good against protoss imo
i've tried this build before as well, and i often run into the problem of sentry heavier armies
some good force fields really screw me over x.x
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building an extra queen "blindly" is useful anyway, because while your 2 queens at main and natural spit on the hatches, the 3rd can drop creep tumor-> more creep spread. this comes in handy especially for being able to get good surrounds. imo, i don't see why you wouldn't get an extra queen (unless hes doing a 2 gate opening)
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I think with the VR rush the reason that some people are getting creamed by VR's and others are saying queens are a good counter has to do with where the queens are and where the VR's are. If the queens are in place and ready for the VR's no problem, 3 queens with some energy can do well vs 2 VR's, at least enough to get another queen or hydras if your close already.
If the VR's catch you off guard and they have a few seconds to target a building your in trouble. Vs toss I generally have Overlords waiting in the places I would expect a VR rush as close to their base as possible. Yes i lose a few if they go phoenix but I don't lose my base. Some smart protoss players will actually ignore the overlord with the VR and go straight for your base so you have to pay attention to the minimap.
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On October 13 2010 03:13 lofi01 wrote:
I'm a 1200 diamond player & i've been going over the basics again & this is one of the builds i love opening with in zvp makes me feel like the computer in single player alittle :D. I've recently been running into a really strong timing attack in zvp, where the protoss go fast expand & tech straight to col & +2-3 attack then push out. Is anyone having trouble with this? I don't have any worthy replays to post so i'm just hoping someone in mid range diamond has run into the same problem when doing this build? the col are so hard to stop.....
That is the exact type of build this strategy should crush. Ultras are the ultimate zerg counter to colos. Try setting up a better flank so the colos don't burn through so many lings though.
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On September 07 2010 17:57 Xapti wrote:
How are you going to scout what they are getting (robo/gateway/twilight/stargate) Suiciding 1-3 overlords and hope you're lucky and that you see what he's getting on the first overlord?
I also don't see this working at all vs a 1 gate core into 3-4 gate zealot-sentry attack, as long as the protoss is being careful, so I guess one has to rush to roaches when the ovie spots a bunch of zealots and/or sentries?
i do this ling centric style against 3-4 gate zealot sentry stalker all the fucking time. it works if you have lings for spotting. ie at his choke. and you know when hes moving out. also baneling into zealot sentry and there all gone in an instant. then the lings clean up the remaining stalkers and the one or 2 wounded sentry/zealot
SCOUT THE FREAKIN FRONT!!!!!!! dont know how many times i have to repeat this critical zerg tactic. ITS YOUR MAIN METHOD OF SCOUTING EARLY GAME!!!!
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On September 07 2010 20:50 Cheerio wrote:
FE into double stargate looks to rape this build. But who does that anyway? I guess you shouldn't oversimplify the build. Sometimes gidra switch is necessary.
i am going to post a rep later of me doing this mass ling stuff, and raping the piss out of fe double stargate. reason you trump the stargate play is simple. you have massed 60 lings. they are teching. if you scout this going on you take some banelings break a hole and they simply will not have enough ground forces to hold off the lings.
as toss, seeing mass lings on multiple hatches, the last thing you wanna do is expand and tech. lol
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i just tried this... and it is fricking awsome. my hardest matchup just got a lot easier
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Honestly, I've been skeptic about the diamaga style of ling play for 2 weeks now, but after a lot of intellectual curiosity, I played it against a very hard protoss AI (with slight variation). Granted, the very hard ai goes 3 gate robo; however, the strategy as presented provides just enough defense to stop the first push, with about 6 lings left, and keeps you in position to pump out +1 speedlings, which I go to about 100 slings, and absolutely decimate his gateway units with them. I haven't been able to try the other stuff, AKA getting ultralisks which I know is the next step to improve my gameplay and use of this build if I want to survive the collosus play; however, winning on both Agria Valley which was a comfort zone for me and Blistering Sands where chokes were rather small when I engaged gave me great confidence to try to see this strat through.
Thanks Mr.Bitter. You always contribute a great deal for us swarm players.
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Can someone help?
what i did wrong here? [url blocked]
(replay)
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Thank you so much for this post, I've really struggled against terran and protoss when I have to go pool first and don't expand until around the 20supply mark. I'm definitely going to start trying this out but it seems like the crucial advantage this build has is that ultra timing is very good. I'm pretty sick of hatch first, then hydra/muta/ling.
Wondering if you have any replays of dimaga doing a similar pool first and hatch at 20supply kind of build against a terran?
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thanks Mr. Bitter, you helped me really much with this build. I have barely any problems vs protoss anymore (just became #1 in my gold division ..).
I modified the build a little and delayed gas, as the +1 upgrades wouldnt be ready for the first encounter anyway. In gold league i can build workers up to 30 before building lings, i also don't need spine crawlers. If you let 3 drones get gas you can tech up without much delay and complete adrenal glands at around 13th minute, while getting attack and carapace upgrades too. Tell me what you think about it. I hope this works in plat and diamond too..
14 pool
16 ovi
17 gas (you may let the drones at gas)
@ pool: queen
20 exe
23 ovi
@100 gas: metaboost
@hatch/ around 30: maynard around 5 drones to natural
30 ovi
30 evo
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EPT
