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eth3n
718 Posts
On September 09 2010 12:02 MrBitter wrote: I try to line my 2nd evo chamber up with my 2nd round of upgrades... usually sometime around Lair finishing. So I'll get +1, lots and lots of lings, lair, and then +2, +1 at the same time. thx | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 10 2010 03:00 Najda wrote: Would a 3rd inbase hatchery be worth it since your just making so many cheap units? I imagine it'd be hard to keep your money down making T1 Zerg units even with perfect injections. I do it all the time. May not be necessary for the pros if they have perfect injections and timings but helps me a ton (1000 Diamond). The last D9Daily was more or less on this topic (or some very related ones) and Check drops a third in base hatchery as well (very ling heavy composition) before taking a 3rd base. | ||
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mind1337
France107 Posts
Pro tip : Don't gas steal with this strat :D I just lost a game where I gas steal the protoss, that forced him to make like 10 zealots and only a few stalkers for his 1st push, ofc I only had lings and spines, dumb me. Just let the P take his 2 gas and make mass stalkers, it will be way easier to crush him :D | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
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whomybuddy
United States620 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 10 2010 03:00 Najda wrote: Would a 3rd inbase hatchery be worth it since your just making so many cheap units? I imagine it'd be hard to keep your money down making T1 Zerg units even with perfect injections. When I'm kick'n ass with my queens, keeping their energy down, etc., I have no need for that in base hatch. If I lose track for a second, though, there's no harm in throwing it down. It certainly doesn't hurt to do so if you've allowed your minerals to creep up. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 10 2010 05:59 whomybuddy wrote: Wonder what will happen to mass lings when colossus or force shield places all over your base. Fast tech to ultra is way way way too risky. Have you tried this? It really sounds like you haven't and don't have any idea of the numbers of lings involved. The other key point which is in fact the focus of day9daily 174 is the counterattack. When you see those colossi near your base, run at his. His single colossus or 2-3 zealots will get annihilated and nothing beats zerglings in a base race. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
Similarly, you don't really need the precise timing (100 gas when pool finishes) that 14-gas 14-pool offers you. Toss has no fast early harrassment units (hellions or reapers or other speedlings) that you need ling-speed super early to deal with, so you can delay it in favor of getting a stronger econ (pool first is slightly stronger) Also, though this build might not be a be-all end-all, i'm super excited to use it a bunch, because it's gonna be damn great for laddering. I think my main concern would be a 2-gate where the toss doesn't attack (but forces you to go roach nonetheless) and then adds on a robo and either attacks with collosus-zealot-sentry before ultras are out or expands, and goes 4-warpgate 2-robo with lots of immortals for the ultras. We'll see though, i'm definitely going to give it a solid playing. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 10 2010 09:40 Lobotomist wrote: I really, really prefer getting the pool before the gas for this build, and ZvP in general. If you find out that your opponent is 2-gating you (or god help, proxy 2-gating you) the gas will not be needed for ling speed. I dunno if this is consensus, but I feel that it's always better, if you're going for roaches, to go pool then gas. Similarly, you don't really need the precise timing (100 gas when pool finishes) that 14-gas 14-pool offers you. Toss has no fast early harrassment units (hellions or reapers or other speedlings) that you need ling-speed super early to deal with, so you can delay it in favor of getting a stronger econ (pool first is slightly stronger) Also, though this build might not be a be-all end-all, i'm super excited to use it a bunch, because it's gonna be damn great for laddering. I think my main concern would be a 2-gate where the toss doesn't attack (but forces you to go roach nonetheless) and then adds on a robo and either attacks with collosus-zealot-sentry before ultras are out or expands, and goes 4-warpgate 2-robo with lots of immortals for the ultras. We'll see though, i'm definitely going to give it a solid playing. On most maps, if you leave your lings at his front, you don't really have to make any roaches until he actually pushes. Just use the lings to spot his army, and if he commits, then que up 4-5 roach. This way, if he does some sneaky robo switch, you've been playing your build at normally, barring the RW, and can still crush his push. | ||
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Zvendetta
United States321 Posts
they just quite suck at this point of the game. Speedlings are absolutely awesome to start with always, but to be honest midgame/lategame strategy has to be a little more diverse. Zerg air superiority is absolfrikken awesome. Ultras, meh. Oh and this strategy has little to no use of infesters, which is bad for zerg in general. I like IdrA play because he absolutely loves infesters. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 10 2010 10:47 Zvendetta wrote: I like IdrA play because he absolutely loves infesters. Get outta here with your IdrA love. This thread is for Dimaga fanboys only. ; ) | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 10 2010 10:35 MrBitter wrote: On most maps, if you leave your lings at his front, you don't really have to make any roaches until he actually pushes. Just use the lings to spot his army, and if he commits, then que up 4-5 roach. This way, if he does some sneaky robo switch, you've been playing your build at normally, barring the RW, and can still crush his push. This. The warren isn't a terribly large investment so put it down and just keep drones on gas (earlier lair if you don't need the roaches). As for the ultras ... I think they are a good option but the key point of this build is a good econ and upgrades early while the ling defense is cheap and very good at punishing any errors. One of the classic problems with zerg is the inability to counter attack or punish a bad choice by the opponent, the attack upgraded lings allow a lot of this as even 8-10 in a mineral line will destroy it. One of the strengths of zerg is building a bunch of units on short notice. The roach option is one use of it, building a hydra den can be another as can a baneling nest against Terran. Having a good econ and a bunch of hatcheries is the best way to capitalize on this advantage we have. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On September 09 2010 12:02 MrBitter wrote: I try to line my 2nd evo chamber up with my 2nd round of upgrades... usually sometime around Lair finishing. So I'll get +1, lots and lots of lings, lair, and then +2, +1 at the same time. Where are you getting all this gas? I follow dimaga's usual gas timings of 2/3/4 all being added after lair is done, and I've never been able to afford anything more than starting my 2nd up without delaying my hive by a minute or two. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 10 2010 11:49 sixghost wrote: Where are you getting all this gas? I follow dimaga's usual gas timings of 2/3/4 all being added after lair is done, and I've never been able to afford anything more than starting my 2nd up without delaying my hive by a minute or two. -shrug-, If you add 2nd-4th gas when you start lair, you should have an excess by the time you start hive. Dimaga's actual style for the 2nd round of upgrades might be a little different. I haven't really scrutinized that aspect of his play. But yea... I usually have no issue start'n up both upgrades between lair and hive. | ||
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LuDwig-
Italy1143 Posts
Also it seems really weak on maps like blistering or scrap sattion where the opponent can use a different path avoiding your sunkens... | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 10 2010 15:55 LuDwig- wrote: My biggest problem: i am not able to exit my base until i have ultra. I am blocked inside my natural waiting for ultra to coem out witohut the chance to take third...is it normal ?lol Also it seems really weak on maps like blistering or scrap sattion where the opponent can use a different path avoiding your sunkens... You're doing it wrong. You need to have 10-20 lings constantly poking at his front, and another 30-40 on the naga towers around the map. Don't even build the spines unless your front pokes reveal an extremely zealot-centric army that you're not sure you can crush. When he pushes, fall back with your first group, and position your 2nd group in a good flanking position. Keep tabs on him the whole time. If you have spines in your nat, let him push all the way to your nat. If not, you can go for the engagement in the middle of the map - just be sure you can win. (Never initiate a fight that you're not sure you can win) After he's pushed out far enough, surround with your lings and obliterate his push. Pretty solid example of this can be seen here: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3270 After you squash the first push, resume poking at his front with your 10-20 lings, while retaking the naga towers with the rest of your army. When ultras pop, push for the win. edit: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3445 This might be a better example. ^^ Couple of pretty decent surround in that rep. Also shows how take'n an early 3rd is not always a great idea for Z. | ||
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eth3n
718 Posts
Clearly I will have +3 ground armor for ultras by the time I move out with my first wave, however I am wondering how far I should go with ground weapons, and whether or not I should get adrenal glands... Anyone know the math on what would be a better choice? both 200/200, but +3 ground weapons is 220 seconds whereas adrenal are 130 (clearly they can be upgraded concurrently). I am wondering if these upgrades are worth waiting for or if they are unnecessary. I know ultras will benefit moderately from +3 weapons but i dunno. Still figuring out how to time 2nd evo chamber properly to be set up for ultra push | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
If you're comparing +3 attack to adrenal glands, the attack speed is going to win. +3 = lings do 8 damage Adrenal Glands = 20% attack speed - essentially 20% more damage. 7*1.2 = 8.4. This is napkin math, and I could be completely off with it. I'm an English major, after all. As for waiting for the upgrades to finish - no, don't do that. One of the builds strengths is the fast ultras. You really want to do damage as soon as they pop. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
One problem i have is not scouting this early enough. but sometimes i do scout it in what seems like a reasonable amount of time and i still get crushed. edit: one thing i could do is send my lings to his base when i see vr's coming. | ||
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