EPT[D] ZvP - Dimaga Style - Page 5
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ffswowsucks
Greece2294 Posts
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ci_esteban
United States217 Posts
In a lot of my games I found my protoss opponent fast expanding and just did a simple baneling bust w/ about ~12 banelings and the timing was such that my lings were 1/1. It was definitely an all-in strategy at around 50-60 food but it worked so well all four times I've tried it. The most interesting thing was that not only did it completely obliterate his expansion and give me the economic advantage being up a base and workers, but all four games I just won the game right then and there. Well-timed sentries are obviously very effective against zerglings but they're 50/100 and you're zerglings are 50/0. I <3 it. PS. Getting queens for air is a better decision than hydras imo. The extra creep tumors are invaluable and transfusing ultras late game is SOOOO good. Dimaga does that well in the game vs. Huk. If you can get adequate anti-air for no gas it really frees you up for additional upgrades and a lot of ultras. TLDR: This build is F$%&ING BRILLIANT. | ||
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baneling
Canada56 Posts
I don't understand the concern about lack of air defense, no build will account for everything. If you think he's going air turn out another couple queens, drop a spore crawler or two if you're really that worried and get on with your life. At a minimum try this out just so you can see how big a difference the +1 makes. | ||
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AnodyneSea
Jamaica757 Posts
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Recidivist
United Kingdom62 Posts
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 08 2010 21:22 ffswowsucks wrote: so pure lings-ultras huh... and how about void rays or even carriers? For fast void rays just rush him and kill him (not to mention a few queens can hold off until you get hydras, your lair is delayed but not so much that he can have 8 rays out). You can also put down spore crawlers as you have a good econ and the evo already (and toss going fast void ray is behind by an expand and likely can't expand because of the lings). I had someone try void rays late game ... he found the colossus/stalker/zealot was not working against 3/0 lings (he had no forge). He had gone 4 gate into fast colossus I believe, getting all his armies swarmed by lings. When I saw the void rays I took the 5 ultras and 100 lings I had and attacked his base, by the time he got from my 3rd to his base (on Xel naga) he had 1 pylon and 1 gateway left (on 2 bases). It's amazing what 100 lings 3/0 can do to a base ... And this was all with my relatively poor macro (not enough drones, in base hatch because I wasn't quite on time with the larvae spawns) and forgetting adrenal glands. Absolutely great strategy, the start is so similar to a roach rush you can pop out roaches if you see a 2 gate. Remember to keep upgrading, there is no reason not to get 2/0 and 3/0 as well as carapace if a toss is upgrading his attack. Had a problem with a cannon FE on scrap station but I think if I had pumped roaches at the right time (I had the warren down but only made 5 before massing lings) I could have broken through and taken out the expand. The greatest part is that toss players seem to always just make lots of zealots to counter lings. If they don't get their upgrades though 2/0 or 3/0 lings start eating zealots alive. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 08 2010 23:06 Recidivist wrote: Practicing this last night, my friend and I both found that our minerals were getting high. Timings will improve with more practice, however anyone else experiencing this with this build? Any tips on how to keep it down? Maybe I'm just not making enough lings... I had this issue a little before ultras popped, I think its just due to non-pro macro :p. My solution is to drop an in base hatch. If you don't already have extra queens, make some and go from there. If I see a 4 gate massing I will likely get an extra queen or two regardless because transfusing spine crawlers is wonderful. They also defend air and can pump larvae for an in base hatch so really there is no reason not to get 3-4 queens on your 2 bases. They also help keep minerals down because they don't use larvae. | ||
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ZergSecks
Sweden35 Posts
Ultra rush! | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 08 2010 23:06 Recidivist wrote: Practicing this last night, my friend and I both found that our minerals were getting high. Timings will improve with more practice, however anyone else experiencing this with this build? Any tips on how to keep it down? Maybe I'm just not making enough lings... 1.) Stay on top of your queens. More larvae means spending more money 2.) Make extra queens. Seriously, if you've got extra money, there's no reason no to. 3.) Expand again, or drop an in base hatch. Personally I would advise against expanding a 2nd time until you've won a major engagement. 4.) Make note of how close you are to hive. You're going to need a lot of money to crank out ultras. Even Dimaga lets his money start stacking up pretty high between lair and hive. | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
Can't you just put down a spore or two at you nat/choke to buy time for teching and fend of the first few fast DTs? Evo is already up and 1-2 spores aren't that huge of an investment. Especially not considering he might go air. And you can move the spores around as you need them depending on your scouting. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On September 08 2010 21:22 ffswowsucks wrote: so pure lings-ultras huh... and how about void rays or even carriers? I love when people out and out dismiss a strategy by simply pointing out the 1-2 units that counter the unit composition. Is the zerg not allowed to scout and react accordingly? On September 08 2010 21:05 Ouga wrote: 30pop -> 50+ lings? Eco doesn't sound to be too healthy like that. I suspect he gets like 10drones more during that lingmassing depending what's expected to come from opponent. Otherwise I like the introduced style in theory. This is why you can't lay builds in stone for Zerg. The 30 drones thing is just a recommendation for a good place to stop against common 4gate timings. Ps economy isn't going to be much better if he is 4gating. On September 08 2010 21:11 DoomSpirit wrote: Love this. But I drop a spire just in case but not for mutas. Corruptors are pretty handy if he goes for colossi or a stargate. And becaue you have hive, you can get a greater spire if required. That's a viable way to play, but it's really not the same build. Getting the spire will just delay your ultras and force you to play mutaling. If you scout a stargate you can just get a 3rd/4th queen and a hydra den while still teching to ultra extremely quickly. | ||
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Roconar
United States30 Posts
Specific concerns are: -a ling only army means he doesn't need thermal lance, which frees up quite a bit of gas. (thermal lance helps against spine crawlers, so maybe one should still get it with fast colossi?) -if the toss gets a few stalkers early, then scouting this and distinguishing it from a slower 3-gate robo seems tough. The second replay has lings killing three collosi, but that's mostly bad positioning on whitera's part. Cheers P.S.: Really looking forward to the Dimaga/Kiwikaki showmatch. Hopefully we'll see something like this in action  | ||
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Super_bricklayer
France104 Posts
Cause if you scout a fast colo, maybe it's a viable solution, it's delaying your ultra a little bit, but not so much cause you won't have to build another structure, you already have the infestation pit. And Ultra are so long to pop that the timing push with colo is dangerous . So maybe blocking them, not allowing them to get up on a cliff is a solution, get them separate from the army seems even better but it's situational. Also, infestor/queen are ubber good against a fast air, you can't be completely wrong by spending some gaz on infestor i guess. | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
-if the toss gets a few stalkers early, then scouting this and distinguishing it from a slower 3-gate robo seems tough. yeah thats my concern to. At my level of play it wont factor into it though so I'm gonna do this when I can get back to playing =) | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
The primary counter/concern my friends and I found was 1 base archon / 1 base archon -> expand as silly as that sounds. A push with zealots and 1-2 archons can devastate your ling numbers and archons are useful enough vs roaches to not be an instant loss. If they've put down a bunch of spine crawlers in anticipation you can safely expand and enter into more of a macro game as you have a great setup for chargelot+ht or warp prism play. Of note is that the person was reeeallllllllyyyy delaying their lair, and earlier lair + spine crawlers might let you hold the first push then adjust to what else you need better. Fortunately for really fast archons the twilight council would be placed after lings come out and chase the probe away making it difficult to safely go for an archon push. Not that it makes the build useless, but it's important to understand what can cause it some trouble. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
First: 3 gate colossus is a pretty insanely uncommon build because of the costs and build times involved. While it might blind counter this build, in theory, it loses to so many other builds that very few toss are going to use it. Second: No toss is ever going to get colossus without thermal lance. Third: Even with colossus presenting a significant obstacle for the build, I have to feel like the threat of ling run-bys can force the toss to sit back long enough for you to muster some kind of defense. The strength of 3 gate robo is getting a strong ground army with immortal support to blast through static defense and armored units. If you try using colossi instead, you have to wait for another tech structure to warp in before you can even start unit production, and they build sooo slow that by the time 2 are out, a Zerg player using this build should really be closing in on his hive tech. Now there's certainly a timing window between hitting hive and ultras actually spawning that toss might be able to hit, but that's why you threaten aggression with all your lings. And again, 50-60 pop of lings is sooo much. One misstep with his colossi, and they all die. If a player of WhiteRa's caliber can make that mistake, do you really think the scrubs on ladder won't mess up in the same way? That said, I'm going to change gears a bit, and share a funny replay of this build: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3376 Scrap Station is possibly the best map for this. It sure seems to work out great for Dimaga and me. In the above replay, I forgot to hotkey my natural hatchery. So when toss makes his 4 gate push, my minerals are stacking up (over 1k at one point) my army is looking small, and I'm like "wtf is going on here!?". It wasn't until he was on top of my nat that I noticed all the larvae and spawned like 30 lings right under his feet. The beautiful thing is, those lings were still able to clean up and win me the game. =D Man I love this build. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
+1 attack lings with delayed lair is a good opening Ultras with upgrades is a good middle/end There's nothing that says you can't take that opening and put something else in there say maybe +1 attack ling -> mutas -> broodlords for example or +1 attack ling into a more traditional hydra based mid game then into ultras. | ||
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
IMO you don't even need to threaten runbys, you can just kill him. | ||
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Roconar
United States30 Posts
In any case, why wouldn't the toss do some sort of fast colossus build once he scouts an expansion+evo chamber? So, he starts 1-2 extra gates after the cybercore and if he sees that you will go with lots of zerglings he builds a robo. Btw, you save two crono boosts to build them faster. | ||
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CidO
United States695 Posts
14 gas 14 pool 16 queen/speed Then evo chamber and +1 armor then +1 attack. I'm getting in this habit because it's going to be very useful against siege tanks post 1.1 and still just as useful as it is now vs zealots. 34 damage siege shots a ling will survive. | ||
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