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On September 07 2010 19:07 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 19:03 grobo wrote:
In both of the reps linked DIMAGA goes for +1 armor, not +1 attack even though there were no forge to be seen. I'm gonna dig up some more Dimaga reps where he gets +1 attack instead. I know I've seen this build on other maps, its just a pain to dig through so many replays looking for it. That said, thanks for pointing that out. I might need to go back and change the OP to reflect it.
No biggie, just a little thing i noticed when i watched the reps.
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interesting strategy. will try this out!
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This build is actually quite genius. What you do:
-Get fast +1 lings, this is one of dimagas orginals for holding off the 1 base toss.
-Extra queens, this is against something a lot of people do against a 1 base because they're really good
-Fast tech to hive
Now you have upgraded, ultra/ling, with queens for tranfusion and you only need maybe 3 bases because you spend so little gas.
+1 attack lings weakness is +1 attack zealot/sentry but if its a map without backdoor spinecrawler+queen+ling beats that.
Queens are the best anti air unit the zerg has with tranfusion so its not weak to that. Immortal/zealot/sentry is probably the direct way to attack this build.
Getting +1 armour makes no sense unless he's going +1 attack himself btw. But if it gets scouted at all you really don't want to risk +1 attack lings vs +1 attack zealots, +1 armour is more solid.
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is that Dimaga style? i was doing sg similar and recommending to others, and nobody said it Dimaga does that, lol, truth to be told, as much as i love dimaga i only DLed his ZvTs and some ZvZ
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I played my last games like this and it works quite well, but i wonder if good forcefields completely annihilate this.
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On September 07 2010 18:14 Chaosvuistje wrote:
I do this a lot. The only thing that differs in my play is that I go
14 gas
14 pool
15 evo chamber.
The evo chamber finishes just as you have about 100 gas. Get +1 first and then speed. Speed finishes later but you have the +1 sooner. They finish at about the same time.
Its very good against 4 gates. When I get home I will edit this post with some replays of my version of this build.
I have been experimenting with something similar, as well. Here's a replay (level: approximately 800 diamond, EU servers). http://replayfu.com/r/J0pwg
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FE into double stargate looks to rape this build. But who does that anyway? I guess you shouldn't oversimplify the build. Sometimes gidra switch is necessary.
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u posted wrong link for 2 of ur own replays
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On September 07 2010 20:50 Cheerio wrote:
FE into double stargate looks to rape this build. But who does that anyway? I guess you shouldn't oversimplify the build. Sometimes gidra switch is necessary.
You should pretty much always get hydra den after lair just as extra valuable tech for such situations.
I just player this build FE into 2 (at least) stargate and won.
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On September 07 2010 20:58 boneyz wrote:
u posted wrong link for 2 of ur own replays
Whoops. Fixed. Thanks.
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Isn't this vulnerable against fast forge into expand?
You probably won't have the gas to punish him with fast hydras or mutas.
Or you'd rather go for a fast third then?
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On September 07 2010 20:50 Cheerio wrote:
FE into double stargate looks to rape this build. But who does that anyway? I guess you shouldn't oversimplify the build. Sometimes gidra switch is necessary.
LOL, FE into double stargate, if that gets scouted all you need is like 1 queen per void ray which is 150 minerals for 250/150 and then get 1 infestor while teching to hive or hydra.
If it doesn't get scouted and you win well grats but chances of dimaga not scouting it?
I imagine against FE he wouldn't do this build anyway. Its designed to take down 1 base protoss 2 base you can play normally and maybe stick with the upgrades but get 2 bases and mass drones using ling/queen to survive any warpgate attacks off 2 base.
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The 2nd and 3rd replays of your own play - the links don't work for me. Looking forward to watching the replays :-)
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On September 07 2010 21:30 Recidivist wrote:
The 2nd and 3rd replays of your own play - the links don't work for me. Looking forward to watching the replays :-)
I thought I fixed this. The links are working for me. Can anyone else download them?
On September 07 2010 21:19 amorpheus wrote:
Isn't this vulnerable against fast forge into expand?
You probably won't have the gas to punish him with fast hydras or mutas.
Or you'd rather go for a fast third then?
I actually address this in the OP. Against forge openings, Dimaga typically responds by getting lots of roaches, and going all in - often with Nydus Worms.
Your other option is to skip the lings and just drone like a mad man.
If Toss goes forge first, Z is going to scout it well before he wants to start pumping lings. In this case, just don't make the lings. Drone up, add gas, and go muta.
On September 07 2010 20:50 Cheerio wrote:
FE into double stargate looks to rape this build. But who does that anyway? I guess you shouldn't oversimplify the build. Sometimes gidra switch is necessary.
Yes. Sometimes tech switch is necessary. Again, read the OP. This build really shines against one base warpgate builds. If Toss goes void ray, and catches you with your pants down, then its your fault for getting caught. No biggy, it happens to us all sometimes.
That said, its easy to get 1-2 extra queens out. And 3-4 queens can easily stall voids long enough for hydra to come into play.
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Downloads working now, thx!
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...what level are the protoss you're playing? the guy on scrap station had 1500 minerals.. with a 4 warp gate build..! and refused to expand until his army died so it just got shut down immediately. If he'd macro'd properly and expanded asap I think he'd have beaten you easily. Hell if he hadn't thrown his army away for nothing he would've been in a good position
not that I'm saying this build is completely invalid but the games you show are, he completely repelled your zergling army and your economy was terrible (about 3 drones mining the natural minerals iirc). Ignoring the fact he could've killed you but backed off giving you the time to throw up 4 spine crawlers :p
I think if a smart protoss scouts a heavy-zergling composition he's going to have a pretty sentry-skewed composition so your zerglings are going to have a super difficult time making anything happen
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As promised, here are the replays =).
http://replayfu.com/download/UlB3F
This is a replay versus a standard 4 gate.
http://replayfu.com/download/YeOEn
This game was on Delta quadrant, against a 4 gate + robo for immortals.
http://replayfu.com/download/RVZNy
This was against a 3 gate robo push.
http://replayfu.com/download/DlvZe
Aaaand this one against a 2gate into 4gate.
However, I'll have you know that this isn't the end all be all build. I've lost to some protoss mainly due to skill difference of my opponents or general baneling mistakes on my part. Like the replays below.
http://replayfu.com/download/rva4O
http://replayfu.com/download/OzReX
My version is to add banelings when the zealot count gets too high. Forcefields do work wonders against this, however, a sentry can only forcefield so much. If the opponent needs sentries to stay alive, then you're fairly ahead since he can't tech as fast due to the 100 gas for each sentry.
I have yet to use this build against a 4 gate blink stalker build though, but I expect that it would do great due to the cooldown of blink. Unless ofcourse you are fighting near a ridge. Then again, with this build, you can choose where to attack. Thus you can avoid ridges altogether if you play it smart.
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How does this build go vs fast phoenix or colossi? How do you adapt it? Have you actually been in a situation where your toss opponent did such things? I imagine with a +8 minute lair and delayed gas harvesting, you'd have trouble defending against a well timed zealot push with support from 2 colossi and sentries.
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On September 08 2010 01:08 LilClinkin wrote:
How does this build go vs fast phoenix or colossi? How do you adapt it? Have you actually been in a situation where your toss opponent did such things? I imagine with a +8 minute lair and delayed gas harvesting, you'd have trouble defending against a well timed zealot push with support from 2 colossi and sentries.
One of the Dimaga reps shows the build vs. fast phoenix. Against a fast colossus, I would imagine things might get pretty hairy. I've not run into any fast colossus play lately, but I think it'd be very hard to handle.
On September 08 2010 00:41 Setanta wrote:
...what level are the protoss you're playing? the guy on scrap station had 1500 minerals.. with a 4 warp gate build..! and refused to expand until his army died so it just got shut down immediately. If he'd macro'd properly and expanded asap I think he'd have beaten you easily. Hell if he hadn't thrown his army away for nothing he would've been in a good position
not that I'm saying this build is completely invalid but the games you show are, he completely repelled your zergling army and your economy was terrible (about 3 drones mining the natural minerals iirc). Ignoring the fact he could've killed you but backed off giving you the time to throw up 4 spine crawlers :p
I think if a smart protoss scouts a heavy-zergling composition he's going to have a pretty sentry-skewed composition so your zerglings are going to have a super difficult time making anything happen
My replays were all from ladder, so I'm guessing they're ~1k toss users. That said, I don't claim to be anything special, nor do I think any of my competition necessarily is. If you want to see polished execution of this build, watch Dimaga.
edit:
And for what its worth (spoiler below)
+ Show Spoiler +Cool used something very similar to this build to beat an all-inning Protoss opponent in the GSL earlier today. You could go look that game up, too.
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EPT
