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On September 14 2010 12:52 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 12:23 sooch wrote:I accidentally posted one of the replays where I didn't take your advice to delay hatch to 21...the other one should be pretty much exactly as you described. Expo not happening until I can really afford it, 2 drones off gas when speed is started, +1 started AS SOON AS 100 gas from 1 drone was achieved, and that upgrade still didn't finish until 8:10...I'm not sure how you're getting it so early when there's only 2 things I'm spending gas on, and I'm removing drones exactly as you say. This is the one to watch: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79987-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dnaMy battle micro/choosing where to fight early/mid/late game has to be the thing I need to improve most, so that's fine and I definitely agree with that comment. MrBitter said he has been succeeding with stopping drones at ~26-28 food, which is pretty much 22 drones and 2 queens, so that's what I've been doing. A blank replay would be good, a replay of you beating 4gate on xelnaga with this build would be even better though. Next time I get 4gated on ladder there I'll be sure to post it. I'll edit my post when I finish the rep. Also, I'm pretty sure he said 26-28 drones, not food.
On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:
If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door.
Nah he said food, not drones 
I'll edit my post when you edit yours 
Thanks in advance for the advice btw. What's your id/code?
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On September 14 2010 13:04 sooch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 12:52 sixghost wrote:On September 14 2010 12:23 sooch wrote:I accidentally posted one of the replays where I didn't take your advice to delay hatch to 21...the other one should be pretty much exactly as you described. Expo not happening until I can really afford it, 2 drones off gas when speed is started, +1 started AS SOON AS 100 gas from 1 drone was achieved, and that upgrade still didn't finish until 8:10...I'm not sure how you're getting it so early when there's only 2 things I'm spending gas on, and I'm removing drones exactly as you say. This is the one to watch: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79987-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dnaMy battle micro/choosing where to fight early/mid/late game has to be the thing I need to improve most, so that's fine and I definitely agree with that comment. MrBitter said he has been succeeding with stopping drones at ~26-28 food, which is pretty much 22 drones and 2 queens, so that's what I've been doing. A blank replay would be good, a replay of you beating 4gate on xelnaga with this build would be even better though. Next time I get 4gated on ladder there I'll be sure to post it. I'll edit my post when I finish the rep. Also, I'm pretty sure he said 26-28 drones, not food. Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:
If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door. Nah he said food, not drones I'll edit my post when you edit yours Thanks in advance for the advice btw. What's your id/code?
Yeah you were right, I guess I'm just greedy. Also, after watching those reps a few times, you should really find a different P to practice this build, I've never seen anyone do that build before, and it's really not the typical ladder 4gate.
sixghost.219
We can just play a few games if you're on right now.
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http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3628
I just finished playing that game. I know its not zealot/sentry, but it shows my timings on things like +1, take'n guys off gas, etc. (8:10 is when my +1 finishes)
Also notice where I chose to make that surround: In range of my spines, but not on top of them.
The biggest mistake I'm seeing through other guys in this thread is just choosing to fight your battles in bad positions.
edit:
On September 14 2010 12:23 sooch wrote:I accidentally posted one of the replays where I didn't take your advice to delay hatch to 21...the other one should be pretty much exactly as you described. Expo not happening until I can really afford it, 2 drones off gas when speed is started, +1 started AS SOON AS 100 gas from 1 drone was achieved, and that upgrade still didn't finish until 8:10...I'm not sure how you're getting it so early when there's only 2 things I'm spending gas on, and I'm removing drones exactly as you say. This is the one to watch: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79987-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dnaMy battle micro/choosing where to fight early/mid/late game has to be the thing I need to improve most, so that's fine and I definitely agree with that comment. MrBitter said he has been succeeding with stopping drones at ~26-28 food, which is pretty much 22 drones and 2 queens, so that's what I've been doing. A blank replay would be good, a replay of you beating 4gate on xelnaga with this build would be even better though.
K, just watched this replay.
1st: Yes, this is an atypical 4 gate... But that's no biggy. (imo)
2nd: Toss leaves his base with 7 sentries and 2 zealots while you have 26 lings on the field. At that instant, you need to either run into his main, or crush him. He can have the best forcefields in the world, but if you just back up after he casts them, there's no way in hell he's going to be able to kill 26 lings with that tiny army.
But more importantly, just run into his main! It delays his push, and if you do it, you're going to inflict critical economic damage.
3rd: I really dislike your spine placement and timing. They're very late, and they're way out in front of your hatch. If he had run straight up your ramp, or straight behind your minerals, the spines would have been completely uninvolved in the fight.
In part, that's what ends up happening. One gets picked off, and the other gets dodged all together.
4th: You just can't let the Protoss fight with his back to the wall.
I'd be glad to try playing against your buddy with this build.
My Bnet ID: Flabulous, 625
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Yeah...I have a hard time picking when to engage that army because basically he wall walks all the way past the rocks to the third back to the mineral line, and fighting him there is even worse than anywhere else. Engaging him at that wall seems to be the lesser of two evils...maybe xelnaga is just bad for this build :/
7 sentries and 2 zealots actually do pretty well against 26 lings, maybe it's just RoD but it's not so easy to just bait him into using force fields that trap few or no lings. He waits until he really sees commitment to FF and I always just end up losing more than I gain. Runbys are a good thing to try, definitely, just on the off chance that they don't have anything on the ramp.
@sixghost: How is the evo late btw? It pops as soon as I get my 2nd 100 gas (unless you put 3 drones back on gas soon after starting expo, then that would explain how yours comes out faster).
I'll add both of you and see if I can get some other P's on my F list to 4gate some more.
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On September 14 2010 21:33 sooch wrote:
Yeah...I have a hard time picking when to engage that army because basically he wall walks all the way past the rocks to the third back to the mineral line, and fighting him there is even worse than anywhere else. Engaging him at that wall seems to be the lesser of two evils...maybe xelnaga is just bad for this build :/
7 sentries and 2 zealots actually do pretty well against 26 lings, maybe it's just RoD but it's not so easy to just bait him into using force fields that trap few or no lings. He waits until he really sees commitment to FF and I always just end up losing more than I gain. Runbys are a good thing to try, definitely, just on the off chance that they don't have anything on the ramp.
@sixghost: How is the evo late btw? It pops as soon as I get my 2nd 100 gas (unless you put 3 drones back on gas soon after starting expo, then that would explain how yours comes out faster).
I'll add both of you and see if I can get some other P's on my F list to 4gate some more.
I've never really experienced that strategy on xel, but maybe the solution is to just stick a sunken way over there so that it's in range of his units if he decides to hug that wall and constantly FF.
I'd have to play a couple games vs that strategy, but I'd like to try some stuff like getting 6-8 earlier zerglings and using them to try and snipe 1-2 of those sentries early on to prevent him having like 600-700 total energy once he attacks. Also, I think it would be smart to maybe make 4 sunkens in pairs of 2 and give up 2-3 pairs of lings. Sunkens seem like a huge weakness of that strategy.
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I find that a fast evo is really good against both T (+1 armor) and P (+1 attack). Especially if you throw in banelings (against T) and transition straight to infestors and (eventually) ultras.
Seriously, upgraded speedling/rollypoly/infestor is one of the best combos in the game, especially on creep; and not just in terms of unit combination but also in their macro balance (as long as you throw down an aux hatch w/ queen in your main to keep the larva count up).
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I watched some of the replay and testing the build myself I made this build, very similiar to Dimagas and the others who posted in this thread:
9 Overlord
14 Extractor
14 Spawning Pool
15 Overlord
16 Zerglings
17 Queen
19 Metabolic Boost and pull two drones of gas.
21 Hatchery
23 Queen
25 Overlord
25 Evolution Chamber
26 6 Zerglings
29 Melee Attacks Level 1 and pull last drone of gas.
29 Zerglings or Drones depending on the situation.
4 Gate: Zerglings
Expand or tech: Drones
~40 Drones to gas again
@ 100 Gas: Lair
1/3 Lair: 3 Extractors
Infestation Pit when you either defended the 4 Gate or scouted something else.
Drones, Drones, Drones if you survived the 4 Gate.
Ground Carapace Level 1 and add another Evolution Chamber and get Melee Attacks Level 2.
Hive as soon as Infestation Pit finishes.
@ Hive finish: Ultralisk Cavern and save resources for Ultralisks.
Expand, Expand and Expand.
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In the 10 pages someone might have already responded to this, but what build should I transition to if the opponent goes 2gate?
I get early Roaches and repel his early aggression but then they they turtle up and throw down some more gates (or get some collosi) for a later attack which I almost inevitably crumble to.
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On September 16 2010 01:42 Sensator wrote:
In the 10 pages someone might have already responded to this, but what build should I transition to if the opponent goes 2gate?
I get early Roaches and repel his early aggression but then they they turtle up and throw down some more gates (or get some collosi) for a later attack which I almost inevitably crumble to.
You can go roach, into roach/hydra, or you can go roach, into fast hive ultra. (basically just resuming the build after thwarting the aggression)
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I have been practicing this build against a friend of mine on Xel'naga, I was testing it against a 4gate. I am having similar problems as some others in this thread, i am unable to avoid the insta-loss. He comes in with the 4gate at around 8:00 minutes when i have 56 +1 lings and 2 spine crawlers.
I sum up my loss to poor ling control (it was quite bad). Is there anything else obvious that i am doing wrong? I messed up the build a little and got supply blocked but managed to recover before the attack happened. His unit mix is largely zealot sentry with a couple stalkers, which seems quite affective.
replay: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3713
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I feel like forcefields decrease the effectiveness of this build greatly. The lings are honestly only effective if you get a nice surround and catch the push off guard as well as snipe the proxying probe and the pylon. Otherwise he'll engage at your natural and use forcefields to either make your lings stuck or unable to attack his units while most of his will be ranged.
I have also seen dimaga do this build less and less since beta ended. Just my view though
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I'm starting to agree with Tiaan, with better control i could have done a bit better but i got owned so hard... don't know what it would take to actually win the engagement.
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My sense is that the key to this is being so active with the mass lings that your protoss opponent spends more time than he otherwise would in his base. For instance on kulas I constantly bounce back between the choke at the front and the rocks at the back, making him defend both at once. The point is not to get in, but rather to put him on the defensive while you macro hard. Even if he comes out strong, I have three or four hatches by that point and can just constantly pump a stream of zerglings. It's actually a struggle to use all of the minerals you end up having.
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On September 16 2010 15:22 pwadoc wrote:
My sense is that the key to this is being so active with the mass lings that your protoss opponent spends more time than he otherwise would in his base. For instance on kulas I constantly bounce back between the choke at the front and the rocks at the back, making him defend both at once. The point is not to get in, but rather to put him on the defensive while you macro hard. Even if he comes out strong, I have three or four hatches by that point and can just constantly pump a stream of zerglings. It's actually a struggle to use all of the minerals you end up having.
^^ This is good advice.
You have to use that mobility, you have to control your lings well, and you have to pick your battles wisely.
I crossed over the 1300 Diamond threshold yesterday, and this is the build I open with in 100% of my ZvPs.
A couple things:
The longer you delay the toss push, the more spines you're going to need.
Always be looking for an opportunity to run into the toss base.
You want to initiate your surround so that his army is in range of your spines, but not on top of them. That way your lings soak damage, while the spines dish it out.
Never let toss fight with his back to a wall.
K, now for this:
On September 16 2010 13:25 Xeiph wrote:I have been practicing this build against a friend of mine on Xel'naga, I was testing it against a 4gate. I am having similar problems as some others in this thread, i am unable to avoid the insta-loss. He comes in with the 4gate at around 8:00 minutes when i have 56 +1 lings and 2 spine crawlers. I sum up my loss to poor ling control (it was quite bad). Is there anything else obvious that i am doing wrong? I messed up the build a little and got supply blocked but managed to recover before the attack happened. His unit mix is largely zealot sentry with a couple stalkers, which seems quite affective. replay: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/3713
Yea, your ling control was not the best.
1st: You need units outside his base. When he pushes out, threaten him with that run-by. It delays that push, giving you time to get more units out, and adequate spines up.
2nd: You have to get a surround. If you let him fight with his back to the wall like you did, you're going to lose every time.
3rd: I will concede that Xel'Naga Caverns is hard on this build. I'm not ready to say its impossible though. I shut down 4 gates here all the time.
4th: Get a couple more spines. I might need to make some changes to the OP, but I've been getting 3-4 spines almost every game these days.
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Can this BO be used to safely tech to mutas instead of ultras?
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On September 18 2010 05:30 Swig wrote:
Can this BO be used to safely tech to mutas instead of ultras?
Yes, I actually use this variation myself instead of fast teching to Ultralisks.
Basically when you push back the 4gate, you should be having a bit of surplus of minerals, I pump drones and take my Gas. I also always leave 1 guy at gas so you should have more then 100 for the lair. Then as money allows I just take all my gasses. Usually I get enough gas for around 5-6 Mutalisks. How you balance your drones / Zerglings after beating the 4 gate and your spire getting done, is up to you and very important, experience will make you better at this. But usually it's relatively safe to pump lots of drones.
This works greatly because Mutaling > robo bay tech especially if you start out with an advantage, which is the normal follow up to 4 gate.
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So far this build has been working GREAT for me, and i havnt used it on Scrap station yet (amazing havnt had to play on the map since i started using it). Rather effective opener, and leave you with some good options for transitions, especially if you just universally open with +armor. BUT i have only been playing against Plat players so. Currently sitting on a 7-1 record against Plat Toss since i started experimenting/using so.
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I like to use this build, but rather than take the Drones OFF gas, I keep them on, and make 2 Evolution Chambers, both at about 30 food (approx. 26 drones) This lets me get the +1 Melee and +1 Carapace at the same time.
Then it's just a matter of pumping lings to about 60 food, then pushing, and teching a lair. During the lair tech, I make my remaining 3 extractors, and pump drones from all my larvae (Injected and natural)
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I can't tell you how much this build has helped my game. My maco isn't that good, so I always drop down a second hatch in my main to keep my minerals low.
Ling mobility is probably the strongest aspect of this matchup. If you have a well defended expo, and his army is out of his base, you can go for his main.
It's also helped my ZvZ match up as well.
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Looks really good, I'll be sure to try it out 
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EPT
