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On September 13 2010 12:15 vOddy wrote:This build order seems awesome, but if he goes 2 stargate phoenix I think you will die because there is no way to scout it in time.  I mean, on some maps you really can't scout their entire main if they cover the edges with a stalker or two. On Lost Temple for example, a Protoss could easily hide two stargates.
This has only been covered about a hundred times in this thread. If you can't scout stargate tech, you're bad. End of discussion.
edit:
(unless its proxied)
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hm, I like the sound of this, i'm going to have to give it a shot. Too bad at lower levels all protoss do is cannon rush  , oh well, guess i'll just focus on scouting!
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Biggest problem i see in PvZ as a zerg with a build similar to this is vs a good player with forcefield placement with some sort of warpgate push. I've lost fights where hes whacked down lets say 5-8 forcefields all around my swarm of lings (i do a full surround from 2 sides with anything from 30-60 lings). The lings end up getting caught in and seem to stack on each other(bug?) and don't attack just other then die
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On September 13 2010 07:20 sooch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games. You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push. If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door. I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason. The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79177-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsEdited with replay.
Hopefully this doesn't come off as too mean, but here I go:
-First off, your build was just awful. I don't know if 13/13 is your normal but it's just all around worse than 14/14 if you ask me
-You went 10 ovie instead of 9, wasn't it proven a while ago that 9ovie is the better opening economically? Also, I've never really seen someone do that extractor trick, but w/e.
-It's a small thing, but around 14-15 supply you have 3 patches that aren't being mined, yet you have 6 drones mining the 3 right-most patches. Automine is great but it doesn't correct for that stuff, you need to manually adjust that stuff.
-Here's where you build just becomes a disaster. First of all, pull 2 drones off gas once you start speed, you don't need your next 100 gas for a while, and it's more important to start your 2nd hatchery, 2nd queen, and more drones.
-You take your nat at 18, which I just don't understand. You cut way too many drones for my liking. Instead, try pulling 2 drones off gas, keep on droning, start your nat hatch at 21, then start your evo and and 2nd queen once you have the minerals.
-Your still cutting drones, this time to get your 2nd queen out
-You had 124 gas for over a minute before you needed it. All that could have been more mining time on minerals.
-You made an ovie at 21/26 for some reason, at least 3 drones before you needed it.
-Your flanking lings completely ran past the battle, it happens, but it hurt you a ton.
-You need to split your lings into 2 groups in your nat, then just run them all into a surround. Instead you just a-moved them right into the zealots while the stalkers sat there and dished out damage.
You seem like an ok player but your build was just so god damn inefficient. I just did a few dry-runs to test your unit counts against a propely executed BO, and you are behind on drones virtually the entire game. The actual build should look something like this:
9ovie
14gas
14pool
15ovie
pool finishes:
queen, speed, 2lings, 2drones off gas
21hatchery
drones back on gas
24queen / start melee up / pull 2 drones off gas
start massing lings whenever you feel you need to. Like the OP says 26-30 is good. Also, I tend to use my first 25energy with my first queen to spawn creep since you don't need to larvae that early.
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I have been working on this build (and transitions from it). I find making a bunch of queens to be a great idea regardless. Also, don't skimp on the spine crawlers against a 4 gate.
In my experience you can get an extra batch of drones out and drop 4 spine crawlers (so you have an extra 4-5 drones) while making about 20 fewer lings. 4-5 Queens on 2 base help destroy 4 gate pushes (transfusing the crawlers and supporting lings) and prevents a couple of void rays ruining your day.
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Are you telling me you tranfuse your lings, sorry but I will never be that damn good. 
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On September 13 2010 13:38 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:20 sooch wrote:On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games. You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push. If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door. I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason. The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79177-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsEdited with replay. Hopefully this doesn't come off as too mean, but here I go: -First off, your build was just awful. I don't know if 13/13 is your normal but it's just all around worse than 14/14 if you ask me -You went 10 ovie instead of 9, wasn't it proven a while ago that 9ovie is the better opening economically? Also, I've never really seen someone do that extractor trick, but w/e. -It's a small thing, but around 14-15 supply you have 3 patches that aren't being mined, yet you have 6 drones mining the 3 right-most patches. Automine is great but it doesn't correct for that stuff, you need to manually adjust that stuff. -Here's where you build just becomes a disaster. First of all, pull 2 drones off gas once you start speed, you don't need your next 100 gas for a while, and it's more important to start your 2nd hatchery, 2nd queen, and more drones. -You take your nat at 18, which I just don't understand. You cut way too many drones for my liking. Instead, try pulling 2 drones off gas, keep on droning, start your nat hatch at 21, then start your evo and and 2nd queen once you have the minerals. -Your still cutting drones, this time to get your 2nd queen out -You had 124 gas for over a minute before you needed it. All that could have been more mining time on minerals. -You made an ovie at 21/26 for some reason, at least 3 drones before you needed it. -Your flanking lings completely ran past the battle, it happens, but it hurt you a ton. -You need to split your lings into 2 groups in your nat, then just run them all into a surround. Instead you just a-moved them right into the zealots while the stalkers sat there and dished out damage. You seem like an ok player but your build was just so god damn inefficient. I just did a few dry-runs to test your unit counts against a propely executed BO, and you are behind on drones virtually the entire game. The actual build should look something like this: 9ovie 14gas 14pool 15ovie pool finishes: queen, speed, 2lings, 2drones off gas 21hatchery drones back on gas 24queen / start melee up / pull 2 drones off gas start massing lings whenever you feel you need to. Like the OP says 26-30 is good. Also, I tend to use my first 25energy with my first queen to spawn creep since you don't need to larvae that early.
-14/14 is my standard but I 13/13 on steppes/xelnaga because they're small and 15 feels too late to pool against a 2gate
-I overlord on 10, scout on 11 with extractor trick drone, I'm aware of the 10 minerals I'm losing out on, I've seen the thread
-OL on 21 lets you spend all larvae from the first inject without getting capped iirc
-I'm not sure what you mean by "cutting drones"...obviously you stop producing drones to build things other than drones if you're keeping your money low. How do you build a hatchery while constantly producing drones unless you have 18+ drones already? Zergling/drone production off one base with queen requires 16 drones.
-I add 2 drones to closer patches in order to get the minerals faster, a minor thing that leads to those patches being depleted earlier but w/e
Thanks for the criticism, but I think some of it is unfounded and not keeping with the nature of the build. The micro errors were there, I definitely agree with that, but +1 Melee BARELY finishes in time for 4gate without pulling guys off gas, the build you suggested is more of a standard macro build. Note that your 21 expansion timing is actually seeming quite late and I feel it would be a liability vs 4gate.
It's fine to criticize little things, but if you really don't want to come across as a douche, it's not hard to avoid saying things like "first off, your build was awful." I'm not a super sensitive person or anything, but if you want someone to give you their best, unbiased response, it's better to use nice, unbiased language
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On September 13 2010 14:36 OdinPimphammer wrote:Are you telling me you tranfuse your lings, sorry but I will never be that damn good.
You transfuse the spine crawlers or the other queens. The queen's energy can also be useful to the lings in the form of creep tumors mind you. when you have a good creep spread it makes it very hard for the toss to attack because you get a speed boost and he can't place proxy pylons on the creep (you also get good vision without risking overlords to the stalkers).
4-5 queens with a fair bit of energy (spread between them, don't always inject larvae with the same one) can hold off a LOT.
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On September 13 2010 14:57 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 14:36 OdinPimphammer wrote:Are you telling me you tranfuse your lings, sorry but I will never be that damn good. 4-5 queens with a fair bit of energy (spread between them, don't always inject larvae with the same one) can hold off a LOT.
^^ Really good advice.
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On September 13 2010 14:54 sooch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 13:38 sixghost wrote:On September 13 2010 07:20 sooch wrote:On September 13 2010 07:12 MrBitter wrote:On September 13 2010 07:11 sooch wrote:
I've been 4gated a couple times now, while trying to execute this build and...I'm not sure it can reliably hold 4gate. It certainly doesn't "crush" 4gate, especially if he manages to get to your ramp to cut off your reinforcement lings. 4gate comes slightly before you get the #s of lings you want, generally I have something like 25 or so when the proxy pylon goes down. Then I'm in the difficult position of a) waiting until I get more lings and engaging at my base where I have a crawler or 2 OR b) going in with suboptimal #s of lings in hopes of killing the initial force and the pylon before he can start reinforcing. +1 melee finishes in time for 4 gate, easily. But it is still really, really scary and out of 10 games I'm not sure I could defend 4gate with this build more than 5 of those games. You're doing something wrong if you've only got 25 lings out for the push. If you start pumping pure ling at 25-26 supply, you should easily be able to get 40-50 on the field before toss can start knock'n at your front door. I've been starting ling production at ~30 supply with only the original 2 lings I produced at first to start with, the rest being drones/queens...that could be the reason. The OP says "drone to 26-30" but then below it says "around 30 supply start pumping lings". I think you need to be pumping lings on the lower side of 26-30 than the higher side for this to work. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79177-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsEdited with replay. Hopefully this doesn't come off as too mean, but here I go: -First off, your build was just awful. I don't know if 13/13 is your normal but it's just all around worse than 14/14 if you ask me -You went 10 ovie instead of 9, wasn't it proven a while ago that 9ovie is the better opening economically? Also, I've never really seen someone do that extractor trick, but w/e. -It's a small thing, but around 14-15 supply you have 3 patches that aren't being mined, yet you have 6 drones mining the 3 right-most patches. Automine is great but it doesn't correct for that stuff, you need to manually adjust that stuff. -Here's where you build just becomes a disaster. First of all, pull 2 drones off gas once you start speed, you don't need your next 100 gas for a while, and it's more important to start your 2nd hatchery, 2nd queen, and more drones. -You take your nat at 18, which I just don't understand. You cut way too many drones for my liking. Instead, try pulling 2 drones off gas, keep on droning, start your nat hatch at 21, then start your evo and and 2nd queen once you have the minerals. -Your still cutting drones, this time to get your 2nd queen out -You had 124 gas for over a minute before you needed it. All that could have been more mining time on minerals. -You made an ovie at 21/26 for some reason, at least 3 drones before you needed it. -Your flanking lings completely ran past the battle, it happens, but it hurt you a ton. -You need to split your lings into 2 groups in your nat, then just run them all into a surround. Instead you just a-moved them right into the zealots while the stalkers sat there and dished out damage. You seem like an ok player but your build was just so god damn inefficient. I just did a few dry-runs to test your unit counts against a propely executed BO, and you are behind on drones virtually the entire game. The actual build should look something like this: 9ovie 14gas 14pool 15ovie pool finishes: queen, speed, 2lings, 2drones off gas 21hatchery drones back on gas 24queen / start melee up / pull 2 drones off gas start massing lings whenever you feel you need to. Like the OP says 26-30 is good. Also, I tend to use my first 25energy with my first queen to spawn creep since you don't need to larvae that early. -14/14 is my standard but I 13/13 on steppes/xelnaga because they're small and 15 feels too late to pool against a 2gate -I overlord on 10, scout on 11 with extractor trick drone, I'm aware of the 10 minerals I'm losing out on, I've seen the thread -OL on 21 lets you spend all larvae from the first inject without getting capped iirc -I'm not sure what you mean by "cutting drones"...obviously you stop producing drones to build things other than drones if you're keeping your money low. How do you build a hatchery while constantly producing drones unless you have 18+ drones already? Zergling/drone production off one base with queen requires 16 drones. -I add 2 drones to closer patches in order to get the minerals faster, a minor thing that leads to those patches being depleted earlier but w/e Thanks for the criticism, but I think some of it is unfounded and not keeping with the nature of the build. The micro errors were there, I definitely agree with that, but +1 Melee BARELY finishes in time for 4gate without pulling guys off gas, the build you suggested is more of a standard macro build. Note that your 21 expansion timing is actually seeming quite late and I feel it would be a liability vs 4gate. It's fine to criticize little things, but if you really don't want to come across as a douche, it's not hard to avoid saying things like "first off, your build was awful." I'm not a super sensitive person or anything, but if you want someone to give you their best, unbiased response, it's better to use nice, unbiased language
Well I was just commenting on your build, so hopefully you didn't take personal offense. Feel free to not take my advice, but I'm just relaying to info that's helped me stop 4gates in the past. I looked over some of my own replays vs 4gate, and did a few practice runs of the build, and you are about 4-5 drones behind a proper build from 5:00 on.
Also, just to drive home this point. The proper build pulls guys off gas, and STILL finishes +1 melee at least 10-20 seconds fast than your build depending on whether you start it before the ovie. Your's finished at 7:50ish, compared to 7:30 or 7:40. Getting +1 that slowly is going to kill you against a better 4gate. That guy's attack came at like 8:20, which has to be one of the latest 4gates I've ever seen still work.
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I'll try pulling guys off gas earlier then, hopefully it helps.
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I'm loving this build!
I just did it against a practice partner, and it completely obliterated his stalker-heavy force. When he went zealot/sentry, however, it was a fair bit harder to win (I lost the first few games he went that), so I tried banelings. Only 8 was what I needed, and I killed those pushes too, but on a lot more even terms than it would have been had he gone stalker. But I don't know a good timing on the baneling nest is - I was doing it ~30.
Also: Guys, stop the flame war. One person has their build they like, another has theirs, live with it. You'll win with yours, he'll win with his.
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Actually, even if I don't scout phoenixes (and I never do on Lost Temple, because it's ridiclously easy to hide the stargates in your main on that map), I can win. I have an evolution chamber so I can easily get spores. Once I even lost all of my overlords but I still won because my economy was so damn awesome from the drone whoring. You get so many drones by doing this, and because of that you get so many lings. 4 gate is a joke. I'm starting to love blistering sands because it's a free win for me now since every Protoss blindly does 4 gate on that map, and this build smacks it.
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On September 14 2010 08:53 sooch wrote:More replays vs 4gate on xelnaga - http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79986-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dnaPulled drones off gas this time, tried 14/14, I think it was pretty close to optimal with the exception of getting supply capped for a short amount of time...evo chamber and 100 gas were pretty much identical in timing. I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting the build and I should be getting hydra tech if I suspect 4gate, or if people think lings should actually be able to hold this. last replay - http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79987-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsGot supply blocked at 60 for an entire overlord...that was bad, and crawlers were also slightly late. Maybe you can get some info from it though.
The build did what it was supposed to, even though you still rushed your nat hatchery and evo chamber. Like I said earlier, you keep on cutting drones get that evo chamber, yet it doesn't get your +1 atk to finish any earlier than mine. Anyway...
You stopped drones extremely early(22), but you held off the attack really easily, yet your battle micro still left a bit to desire. One thing I've noticed in most of your replays is that you always get sunkens, yet you never wait for the protoss to attack into them before you go for the surround. You're really just wasting a drone and 100mins if you do that, plus you lose the benefit of your queen getting in on the fight.
But w/e, you won the fight easily, but after the fight was CLEARLY won (around 8:32) you still made 18 zerglings, all of which needed to be drones, especially considering how few drones you made earlier on in the game. You losing to that attack 7-8 minutes later was 100% a direct result of your crappy economy. If you had more drones you would have easily been able to afford 3-4 or even 5 more sunkens when it was clear he was 100% all-in, which would have virtually won you the game.
Do you want me to post a blank replay of the proper build?
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I accidentally posted one of the replays where I didn't take your advice to delay hatch to 21...the other one should be pretty much exactly as you described. Expo not happening until I can really afford it, 2 drones off gas when speed is started, +1 started AS SOON AS 100 gas from 1 drone was achieved, and that upgrade still didn't finish until 8:10...I'm not sure how you're getting it so early when there's only 2 things I'm spending gas on, and I'm removing drones exactly as you say.
This is the one to watch: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79987-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dna
My battle micro/choosing where to fight early/mid/late game has to be the thing I need to improve most, so that's fine and I definitely agree with that comment. MrBitter said he has been succeeding with stopping drones at ~26-28 food, which is pretty much 22 drones and 2 queens, so that's what I've been doing.
A blank replay would be good, a replay of you beating 4gate on xelnaga with this build would be even better though.
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On September 14 2010 06:46 WhoDoYouThink wrote:
I'm loving this build!
I just did it against a practice partner, and it completely obliterated his stalker-heavy force. When he went zealot/sentry, however, it was a fair bit harder to win (I lost the first few games he went that), so I tried banelings. Only 8 was what I needed, and I killed those pushes too, but on a lot more even terms than it would have been had he gone stalker. But I don't know a good timing on the baneling nest is - I was doing it ~30.
Also: Guys, stop the flame war. One person has their build they like, another has theirs, live with it. You'll win with yours, he'll win with his.
I have found you can try to force a stalker composition.
There are several ways, the first is to throw down a fast roach warren when he scouts (and even canceling it if you want). Either way you can deny scouting after the first few lings so giving false information is possible.
I would opt for roaches over banelings to stop zealot/sentry, the other option is spine crawler to tier 2 units. Generally speaking any form of early protoss play can be stopped while expending nothing but 100 gas for speed and 100 for the +1 attack (or +1 carapace for 150). I get the extra queen(s) against void ray (also helpful against 4 gate) and spine crawlers (4 ?).
Even pure zealot sentry has huge problems with zergling+spine crawler+queens (and transfusing the crawlers and good creep spread). The guardian shields are almost irrelevant, force fields get in the zealots' way more than anything (lings are there more as a threat to the sentries or as extra damage if anything tries to focus spine crawlers) and zealots do very poorly when they are against healed crawlers (especially aligned so only 2-3 zealots get in there).
This means all your gas can be put into tech, whether fast ultras, hydras, mutas or infestors.
I am actually interested in what you think about fast infestors against protoss. Where it gets really crazy is that I want to try the infestor mostly for burrowed move and ITs. This is great harass/map control, forces observers (and probably more than just the usual 1-2) while infestors can still kill observers if you spot them (fungal revealing and 2 fungals kills 100 gas worth). The protoss don't have a cheap detection option, towers are limited coverage and expensive, observers are gas heavy and extremely fragile (not to mention a tech commitment).
My favorite part of this idea is that it gets you closer to tier 3 (even just for adrenal glands ?) and isn't a huge commitment (600 gas? 4 larvae?). This allows you to still get hydras or mutas depending on how the opponent (over)reacts. The infested terrans+fungal can also perform the role of hydras in absolutely annihilating a delayed 4 gate push.
Come to think of it, 400 energy of ITs is reasonnable for 3-4 infestors and 16 ITs can annihilate a base.
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Going through my recent games, I can't find a ZvP on Xel'Naga where the toss tries to 4 gate. Seems like the trend lately is Stargates.
I will try and con one of my practice partners into letting me run over them a few times so that I can show you how I do it.
The real trick to killing zealot/sentry 4 gates is delaying the push as long as you possibly can with ling pokes, and not committing to the surround until he's in range of your spines.
As for the infestor idea - That's a little too cute for me. ; )
I'm sure someone can make it work, but I'd just end up blundering my macro and getting squashed.
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On September 14 2010 12:23 sooch wrote:I accidentally posted one of the replays where I didn't take your advice to delay hatch to 21...the other one should be pretty much exactly as you described. Expo not happening until I can really afford it, 2 drones off gas when speed is started, +1 started AS SOON AS 100 gas from 1 drone was achieved, and that upgrade still didn't finish until 8:10...I'm not sure how you're getting it so early when there's only 2 things I'm spending gas on, and I'm removing drones exactly as you say. This is the one to watch: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/79987-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dnaMy battle micro/choosing where to fight early/mid/late game has to be the thing I need to improve most, so that's fine and I definitely agree with that comment. MrBitter said he has been succeeding with stopping drones at ~26-28 food, which is pretty much 22 drones and 2 queens, so that's what I've been doing. A blank replay would be good, a replay of you beating 4gate on xelnaga with this build would be even better though.
Next time I get 4gated on ladder there I'll be sure to post it. I'll edit my post when I finish the rep. Also, I'm pretty sure he said 26-28 drones, not food.
edit:
You pretty much got the build down, you just built the evo a bit too late. I get it with my first 75 mins after I start my second queen(2nd queen is usually at 22/26)
Anyway, that's a really weird 4gate style your buddy is doing. It's sort of a soft-counter to this build. To be honest, you could probably go ahead and snipe a few of those sentries when he moves out with like 7-8sentries and 2 zealots, at the very least you'd get him to waste a few FFs.
Basically his entire strategy is to mass FF your army and hopefully cut off or glitch a bunch of lings. When someone does something like this, it's even more important to wait for him to get in range of your sunkens before you go for the surround. Also, you really really can let him force you to fight against a wall like that, You're basically giving him a permanent forcement for 180 degrees of his unit ball.
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On September 14 2010 12:45 MrBitter wrote:
As for the infestor idea - That's a little too cute for me. ; )
I'm sure someone can make it work, but I'd just end up blundering my macro and getting squashed.
It is kind of a cute idea but I am wondering about just using infestors for ITs.
We lack a ranged ball units other than hydras. Hydras are cool but colossi and storms really hurt them whereas infestors can be used for other things.
I just find hydras to be a big commitment and too hard countered. Infested Terrans seem extremely cost efficient and high DPS. An infestor in this case would essentially be a unit that constantly produces more swarm for me. The fact that said units can be sneakily deployed is a bonus.
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EPT
