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Gnial, that's a really good suggestion. You truly do have to forget about your 1's preconceptions because 2's is a completely different game that seems to be very cheese heavy for the time being. That said, if you can get past the cheese, it's a nice change from 1's with all the cool unit combos. My terran partner and I have recently been experimenting with a zealot thor rush with me (toss) dishing him all my gas in the early game. It's surprisingly effective and fun to play with.
Back on topic, one other idea I was thinking about is a simple game change in 2's not allowing buildings to be placed on the opposing side of the map for the first ~2-3 minutes. This would probably completely wipe proxy gates/reapers from 2's (which is fine by me), and not really effect any race's ability to scout or rush normally.
I was intrigued by the idea of rocks separating the teams but that does seem to cause scouting problems. We shouldn't pass that off as such a bad suggestion yet, but it would need tweaking. A modification of that could be to have the rocks have less life than the normal destructible rocks, so that they can be taken down by a single probe in ~30 sec to 1 min (or have them automatically blow up after a certain time). This would slow down cheese enough that it would be much more difficult to pull off, and really doesn't slow down scouting too much. It would give enough time to probably completely wall off on most maps though. I don't really see this a too big of a deal because a wall off can give you hints as to what your opponents are planning in and of itself.
PS I also have been working on your stalker void ray build against terran in 1's, and it's seen great success lately. I am almost on top of my diamond division. I've found that it is such a great response to the bio ball that damn near every terran I seem to play opens with. That was an awesome thread (although, like every other thread full of newbs)!
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For any "suggestion" i am just dismissing until I see replay proof. I don't want to sound like an ass, but everything I have read I already know an easy cheese counter, but find it useless to type out each one.
And again no, this is not like an issue of scouting, like cheese is with 1v1's. We both always scout early and see almost every cheese coming. In fact when we see a match up, we already prepare for the cheese and still can not beat it.
Stop saying 800 elo is bad, because its not, for 2v2's. We are top 100 NA, so we are at the very least competent. And with 200 games played, we've seen it all.
No the rocks don't lead to mass air games. The rocks don't even have to be that strong, maybe just 300 hp. The whole point is so reaper+ling/zealot would have the lings/zealots delayed, just enough to have some sort of build decision making.
This doesn't lead to any sort of mid-game disadvantage for any race, as rocks are easily taken out. Even with blistering sands 1v1 rocks don't effect build choices for the midgame too much, have 2 players wouldn't do any much more.
Edit: The idea of scouting denying is sort of an issue with the rocks. There are ways around this like having mineral patches being able to be drilled through like on some BW maps. Again this "con" to my idea can be avoided, with proper map making.
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On September 01 2010 22:02 Slayer91 wrote:
These rushes are more than stoppable on maps with shared main. Don't do greedy openings and have good coordination with your ally. If you're talking random (randomy ally) 2v2 well nothing you can do about that.
Well OK the maps without a shared main maybe you can't hold these off. But really if you go like
10 gate
12 pool
9/10 rax
instead of
13 gate
14 pool
12 rax
you should be able to hold it off.
Maybe it's because you both play random, but I don't see why you can't hold them off if you're so highly rated.
I might have replays as Z/P or P/Z but not on my main comp until thursday.
Perhaps picking double random is the main problem.
Z/P and Z/T seem to be the best teams. Zerglings allow quick aid to your ally and queen+spinecrawler+lings defends everything except proxy gates very easily. (6 pools are way too slow vs 12 pool on big 2v2 maps)
If you're like T/P the only way you can do anything is to go reaper to help your P ally and wall in to defend yourself.
Sorry for the double post, but I feel like i should comment on this one.
Yeah we have been experimenting with 10pooling when one of us is zerg. The problem with zergs are that if you have any sort of lings VS reapers, your basically not even in the game, until u get to roaches. Even if u get to speedlings you have probably lost enough lings/drones/made spines that you cant get that critical mass to stop the larger reaper force. And all during this time your teammate has been dying. Since reapers with the upgrade pack are so strong.
This entire game mechanic also applies to p. Since zealots while beefier still can't touch reapers.
Imagine 2x reaper vs ZvP. Ouch. Whats worse is that since its 2x reapers you can get to that critical mass of building sniping reapers twice as fast. Even if you can get a stalker building, your core can be sniped with 2-3 lobs.
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double terran is lame as hell because of double reapers and double bioball
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No, you cannot scout on maps with the rocks. That just makes cheese even easier, if a bit delayed. I do have a few small points though.
Scouting is KEY. 2s you need to send out earlier scouts because cheese is more effective and the maps are larger. 9th worker should generally be sent (latest).
I agree with Gnial - you need to throw out 1v1's principles. Static D in moderation is very useful on maps where your bases are positioned far enough away, but I don't think against a lot of rush game cheeses your static defense will be up by the time the enemy units arrive.
Another 1v1 principle you should throw out is that losing a base is bad. Don't try to save your ally's base if the game is still early. Just fast tech up to "hard hard" counters (banshees, void rays, mutas, dts). 1v2 is still fine because if you can survive you're in a big eco lead. Before the 200/200 mark you should be well ahead of the combined forces of the other two.
I generally try to wall off (as P/T, or position my queen well with a spine as Z), fast tech while macroing. With air I can generally cripple or kill one and set the other pretty far behind. Then with my eco advantage I abuse the upgrades - if totally they have the same resources as me, I only have to upgrade once for all of my units while they have to do it twice.
Also a trick with T while being cannon or bunker rushed is to lift off the CC and take the natural. By this time your barracks should be up or your ally should have units for you.
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In 2v2 or larger teamgames we always send our first peon out to scout.
I play zerg and usually send the first drone i produce.
Scouting this early means i'm able to decide between 10 pool or 13 pool based on scouting information instead of doing a wild guess. It makes a huge difference.
We arrive soon enough to see if its Barracks first (reaper) or supply first( econ build) or if its 8 pool, 10 pool before ol, 10 pool after ol or 13 pool. And we can change our Buildorder based on the information.
We are also able to scout empty mains if they are proxy'ing and can react to it.
I highly suggest trying this super early scouting.
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Lot of Good advice here specifically the points about scouting, taking towers when it makes sense, walling off completely as protoss when facing 6 pools, and having your ally send 1-2 Tier 1 units each against both of them while you defend against a double cheese attack all of which I've been doing successfully in my Diamond 2s.
I also fully agree that utilizing shared control is key, if they double cheese a single guy, he is most likely going to be wiped out no matter what you do, the trick is making sure your opponent pays for that by ensuring the surviving person makes the two attacking people pay for it, continues to out-economy them while successfully defending their base.
The key to always defeating cheese is by reacting appropriately and not over-reacting. Each case is different but every strategy is counterable, even if it isn't scouted in time.
The more traditional double rush (non cheese) defense strategies should be obvious and counterably by anyone in diamond at this point.
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The best solution imo is to simply have bigger maps.
Think about it.
In 1v1 on 1v1 maps, there is a whole lot more cheese than on 4 player maps. You know where to rush, you can sneak a probe in his base without having to see him, and thus never appearing on his minimap, you know where to put the proxy, and so on.
I think the same principle should apply to multiplayer, not shared bases or noobie rocks.
Just playing 2v2 on an 8 player map instead of a 4 player map would seriously weaken a lot of proxy and rush action.
The maps wouldnt have to be that much bigger, you could cut down on the number of "additional" expos near the middle to still have roughly the same number of bases available on the map.
Tempest and high ground, with a few modifications, thats the maps we should play 2v2 on!
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Yea i agree, most maps are too close and easy to rush. I tell ya, as protoss playing 2v2 if I see my opponents are Z/T, I already know they're going ling/reaper, which is a nightmare. Normally vs 6pool I rush for zealots, vs proxy rax reaper, I rush for stalkers. When I have both of them coming my way, I might as well just hit f10->n...
I think next time I see people cheesing me on 2v2 like that, I'm just gonna play cannon defence 
NME
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http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1333926/NME
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I'm the same as u -100 rating in 1's and 2's and I am frustrated and have no answer to the cheese except to also cheese. I actually like the destructable rocks idea because it is just so annoying playing cheese every single game and I have yet to hear of a better idea to stop it.
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play terran. they are un-cheesable. rank 1 gold 2v2, i played P for ages, switched to T and its easy to defend cheese. ling/zeal rush = wall and repair while pumping rines, reapers = mauraders with concus. most cheeses you can also just lift of your buildings if you really need to while your partner goes air or something similar.
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On September 02 2010 09:48 Jayzo wrote:
play terran. they are un-cheesable. rank 1 gold 2v2, i played P for ages, switched to T and its easy to defend cheese. ling/zeal rush = wall and repair while pumping rines, reapers = mauraders with concus. most cheeses you can also just lift of your buildings if you really need to while your partner goes air or something similar.
uhm, ling/zeal is not the problem and going fast marauder in 2on2 is generally not that good advice. zerglings or zealots will own it.
the protoss solution sounds good, walling of will really help against this and a fast tower at the choke will prevent zealots and zerglings supporting the reapers. problem could be that you need a really good cannon placement against his reapers because your stalker will be very late. thus your pretty immobile.
seems like zerg is the only race that can't react properly without setting themselves behind. you can't build at the choke because there is no creep this early in the game and throwing down crawlers costs you a lot of economy.
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On September 01 2010 20:35 kAra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:59 Tmdemo wrote:
I think the solution would be to change the maps! Not with destructable rocks, but to simply put allies bases right next to each other with only one entrance (which is the case in some of the maps). This way you wont have to fight 2v1 cause your ally is right next to you. This would make for some much more interesting matches. I actually enjoy 2v2 the most, but am getting sick of these annoying cheese tactics. Been playing som 3v3 and 4v4 lately and here it is even worse. It is all about who can rush the fastest and it kinda sucks! ah this is actually even worse of an idea, sounds like you enjoy bronze 2x2
All I hear is blatant negativity and no actual productive input. The thing is kAra, you can't "improve" anything by saying "No that's wrong." Yeah that's one part of the equation but it'd probably help more if you'd say yourself what you think is right and build up on that.
I don't agree with the destructible rocks, I think they'd just lead to mass tech as mentioned before.
I feel the one choke thing is interesting, but I doubt it'll solve any cheese. What I think 2v2 might need to stop all this cheese is just have a really long rush distance, like in the old Twilight Fortress back in Beta.
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i go 14 pool mass ling speed, my friend goes mass marine nothing on 8 or w/e and nothing beats us really except banelings i understand theres alot of cheese n stuff but 2bh you can beat it its not unstoppable
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remove reapers, balance problem solved. Across the board for early game. Or make reaper cliff hopping ability part of the nitro pack upgrade, to slow it down.
The problem with reapers cliff hopping, is that they can do it SOOO early. Take colossus it can cliff walk, But it comes mid/late game when its POSSIBLE for the enemy to defend it.
To have such a versatile unit able to pop out Sooo early messes things up.
EASIEST fix... IMO is to make the maps with uncrossable/unjumpable "mote" around bases, with only the choke being the access point AS normal.
Nullifies early reaper harass or at least a LITTLE easier to deal with since you only have to defend choke, still allows other races to behave normally.
ALOT of the issues can be help with mapping.
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Wow, lots of players have same problems it seems =)
Thing is, it's not the late game me and the OP are worried about I guess. Since me and my mate usually come up as winners (TZ), it's the damn first 5-7 mins in the game, esp it's hard for him since he's Z and kinda forced to either go heavy defence or cheese back and we're not huge fans of him going 6pool either, he thinks it's lame.But wth, it works for so many we meet=(
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One thing I do agree with is double zerg would have a much harder time and ZP the P is in a far worse position to counter attack. You should expect to not be able to use the 1v1 strategies in 2v2 though, on the one hand, cheese is harder to deal with, on the other hand I think the economic disadvantage you go by going a slightly earlier pool/gate as a team when the opponents don't cheese is also relatively diminished ( and you end up being able to pressure them yourself)
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I think "getting rid of the 1on1 assumptions" was the best thing said in this thread.
Just try to play 2on2 with a complete different mindset, like it was a complete different game.
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Indeed, thanks Gnial! That simple line helped me and my team mate a ton. We're playing ZP and it has worked really well with just a cannon or two if we scout an early pool and early two gate/proxy gate coming up. He just makes a couple of sunkens and focuses a little more on defense, in worst case I'll send him minerals with my chronoboosted probes.
It's pretty funny though, more than half the games where we defend the early cheese, they simply leave instantly without a word.
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There's a lot you can do in 2's to counter cheese and live through it. Unfortunately most of it does involve sacrifices to your econ but like others said, forget how 1v1 econ / build orders go otherwise you're going to continue to die and continue to whine about the cheese. A lot of whining is going on about reapers but there's actually things you can do to really screw up early reaper rushes a lot. Send an early scout, sit on the tech lab spot. I've started even throwing a pylon on the tech lab spot which forces them to lift the barracks and it's easier keeping a probe under the barracks so it can't land than it is keeping it on the tech lab spot with SCV's after you.
Some might now point out the proxy reaper, yeah those suck too but are fairly easily managed. You scout and don't find the rax then obviously the proxy is coming as well as something else from the ally. Wall completely off right then so support can't get in with the reaper since it's pretty much all in cheese and they lose if they don't kill one of you.
I use a different build in 2's, I will pretty much always 10-11 gate and also immediately core as gate finishes. These I always place at ramp to create a 1 space wall. I don't make the 1 zealot instead I sit on 100 minerals with a probe in that 1 square opening on hold P ready to make a pylon if i see lings or something. Chrono out the stalker to handle the reaper, wall keeps lings or whatever out so I can deal with them later, or maybe ally can kill them for me.
Overall the biggest breakthrough for me was when I just got over the fact that my econ is just not gonna be as great if I want to be sure I can live through cheese which happens so frequently. Take the hit, scout early, cut a couple early workers when your early scout spots the cheese. I've found how to deal with mostly all of it as protoss now, just takes time, practice, and trying to figure something out rather than just bitching about losing to it.
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EPT
