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Tmdemo
Denmark17 Posts
On September 01 2010 20:35 kAra wrote: ah this is actually even worse of an idea, sounds like you enjoy bronze 2x2 please eaborate sweetie! im 800 diamond in 2v2. nickname tmdemo on eu server. how does this not solve the problem? | ||
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kAra
Germany1405 Posts
so i think you can just trust me that your idea is one of the worst i heared in the last weeks about 2x2 | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On September 01 2010 21:00 Tmdemo wrote: please eaborate sweetie! im 800 diamond in 2v2. nickname tmdemo on eu server. how does this not solve the problem? there is nothing to elaborate. not many people enjoy the crappy 2v2 maps with shared bases and choke. it takes away so many strategies and leads to a tech fest. this would just make 2v2 VERY boring. so i think you can just trust me that your idea is one of the worst i heared in the last weeks about 2x2 you could at least state your reasons. why should anybody trust you just because say your top 5? | ||
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kAra
Germany1405 Posts
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Nafaltar
Germany302 Posts
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Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
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Tmdemo
Denmark17 Posts
On September 01 2010 21:02 kAra wrote: 800 points is a very low rank atm and consits 50% of bonus pool, im currently top5 on the server with an ally i never played before(in sc1) and with playing my offrace so i think you can just trust me that your idea is one of the worst i heared in the last weeks about 2x2 Well congratulations - you must be so proud! I dont care what rank you are. I only stated my rank cause you rudely said that in order for me to think it was a good idea i had to be a bronze player! Whether or not you like the maps with shared bases really doesnt have anything to do with how good you are! I like the long macrogames, and always have the most fun in these maps. It is perfectly fine if you and most others think otherwise but i couldnt really know that before i stated this as an option! With that said i really dont know why you think it takes away a lot of strategies? what stategies are you talking about - except for cheese? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Well OK the maps without a shared main maybe you can't hold these off. But really if you go like 10 gate 12 pool 9/10 rax instead of 13 gate 14 pool 12 rax you should be able to hold it off. Maybe it's because you both play random, but I don't see why you can't hold them off if you're so highly rated. I might have replays as Z/P or P/Z but not on my main comp until thursday. Perhaps picking double random is the main problem. Z/P and Z/T seem to be the best teams. Zerglings allow quick aid to your ally and queen+spinecrawler+lings defends everything except proxy gates very easily. (6 pools are way too slow vs 12 pool on big 2v2 maps) If you're like T/P the only way you can do anything is to go reaper to help your P ally and wall in to defend yourself. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On September 01 2010 22:00 Tmdemo wrote: Well congratulations - you must be so proud! I dont care what rank you are. I only stated my rank cause you rudely said that in order for me to think it was a good idea i had to be a bronze player! Whether or not you like the maps with shared bases really doesnt have anything to do with how good you are! I like the long macrogames, and always have the most fun in these maps. It is perfectly fine if you and most others think otherwise but i couldnt really know that before i stated this as an option! With that said i really dont know why you think it takes away a lot of strategies? what stategies are you talking about - except for cheese? army separation for example plays a huge role in every map with split bases. and it should be a viable strategy in 2on2s to separat the opposing armys or to force 2x 1v1. you just can't do that when they are on 1 base and only move out together. also rushes should be viable and not completely blocked. IMHO it is just the fucking overpowered reaper that makes this strategies nearly unstoppable. a zergling/zealot rush can be repelled at the choke as can zealot/marine, etc. it is only when reapers start wrecking havoc in your main and you have to abandon your choke when it becomes a severe problem as the zerglings or zealots can get in unhindered. just because of the reaper you have to defend ALL of your main and not only the choke which is really hard in the early game. | ||
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Capteone
United States197 Posts
Also I think BO's need to be developed that get units out faster in order to prevent cheese (despite that it may put you behind if no cheese comes). I have noticed that cheese can be stopped pretty easily as long as you get some well-placed static D. (Protoss has the toughest time with this). As zerg getting an early pool and 1-2x Spine Crawlers can stop reapers & lings (assuming you get like 2-4 lings of your own). This definitely isn't ideal, but neither is losing to cheese each and every game. As Terran going 9-10 Rax, building compact and getting a bunker up will shut down just about anything in the early minutes. Good thing about this is that you can recover using Mules and always salvage the bunker when its safe. Protoss has the toughest time, you could go forge first but that is asking for your teammate to be killed. Personally I have seen the most success fending off cheese with either proxy-ing your own gates (allows you to at least base trade with 1 player especially zerg), or going 2x gate in main, but then you absolutely need your teammate to help handle reapers as the zealots will only buy time. | ||
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Immersion_
United Kingdom794 Posts
If your ally is terran and knows what bunkers are this is literally a free win and we have never lost to cheese. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On September 01 2010 22:26 Immersion_ wrote: I have yet to see a 2v2 cheese strategy that cannot be countered by your ally building a reasonable defence and quickly counter attacking both their workers (literally a zealot each/4 marines/2 reapers/10 lings will accomplish this) while you are dying. Use your remaining SCVs to go and kill the enemy SCVs and slow them down as they won't be doing anything either. At the end of the day they cripple themselves 2v1ing you and it is so easy to mop up once their few workers have been taken care of. If your ally is terran and knows what bunkers are this is literally a free win and we have never lost to cheese. what about zergling/reaper or zealot/reaper? you will be dead too if you decide to leave your base while your ally is being destroyed. bunkers won't help you against reapers you know? they will either ignore them or tear them down REALLY fast with zealots or zerglings tanking. i really don't think you play in diamond 2on2 if you've never lost to cheese.... | ||
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Immersion_
United Kingdom794 Posts
On September 01 2010 22:35 fleeze wrote: what about zergling/reaper or zealot/reaper? you will be dead too if you decide to leave your base while your ally is being destroyed. bunkers won't help you against reapers you know? they will either ignore them or tear them down REALLY fast with zealots or zerglings tanking. i really don't think you play in diamond 2on2 if you've never lost to cheese.... How many reapers do you think he can pump out if all his SCVs are dead? You need a lot of reapers to take down bunkers with anyone but the slowest of "oh god I should probably repair that bunker" people. You don't need to 'abandon' your base as I said literally 2 units can shut down their economy, counter reapers being the best method. Edit: Just for clarification, my ally always walls in, the second we see the cheese he puts a bunker behind his wall, if we see reapers he also puts a bunker at his mineral line, sends out a few units while I'm dying, and then builds up. We share units so he can defend while I do the most effective harass on the enemy workers. And yes I play in diamond 2v2. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On September 01 2010 22:39 Immersion_ wrote: How many reapers do you think he can pump out if all his SCVs are dead? You need a lot of reapers to take down bunkers with anyone but the slowest of "oh god I should probably repair that bunker" people. You don't need to 'abandon' your base as I said literally 2 units can shut down their economy, counter reapers being the best method. And yes I play in diamond 2v2. and your playing TT or what? since your ally has bunkers and you go reaper rush yourself... the bunker will be ignored if you decide to repair it you will lose LOTS of scvs. mostly the bunker will be surrounded by zerglings/zealots so there is no place to repair. and who let's his economy get shut down by 2 reapers? with both proxying ok hard to hold a counter, but what about a zerg in play? 2 reapers will lose against the queen and he will be reproducing zerglings which will own your 2 reapers and can eventually save his ally. i don't believe you have never lost to cheese. NOBODY plays that perfect, especially in 2on2. and not everyone plays terran.... and therefore can't counter reapers with reapers. | ||
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Immersion_
United Kingdom794 Posts
On September 01 2010 22:51 fleeze wrote: and your playing TT or what? since your ally has bunkers and you go reaper rush yourself... the bunker will be ignored if you decide to repair it you will lose LOTS of scvs. mostly the bunker will be surrounded by zerglings/zealots so there is no place to repair. and who let's his economy get shut down by 2 reapers? with both proxying ok hard to hold a counter, but what about a zerg in play? 2 reapers will lose against the queen and he will be reproducing zerglings which will own your 2 reapers and can eventually save his ally. i don't believe you have never lost to cheese. NOBODY plays that perfect, especially in 2on2. and not everyone plays terran.... and therefore can't counter reapers with reapers. I don't understand he can't attack the bunker with lings/lots it's behind a wall of buildings, if he ignores the one at ur line with reapers they will die in seconds. How can two well microd reapers possibly die to a queen, even supposing he somehow manages to get one out by the time you counter and not have <6 lings? At the very worst it becomes 1v1 and my ally has a better econ, you will kill all the Terran/Protoss workers 100% of the time and usually most of the zergs. If he 6/7 pooled/8 reapered by the time he tries to save his ally the damage has been done and my ally is at banshees. We play random + Terran. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On September 01 2010 22:59 Immersion_ wrote: I don't understand he can't attack the bunker with lings/lots it's behind a wall of buildings, if he ignores the one at ur line with reapers they will die in seconds. How can two well microd reapers possibly die to a queen, even supposing he somehow manages to get one out by the time you counter and not have <6 lings? At the very worst it becomes 1v1 and my ally has a better econ, you will kill all the Terran/Protoss workers 100% of the time and usually most of the zergs. If he 6/7 pooled/8 reapered by the time he tries to save his ally the damage has been done and my ally is at banshees. We play random + Terran. i thought the bunker was in the base of the first rush victim, whos wall-in will go down pretty fast. if i see a bunker in the second base and an additional one in the mineral line, i'd just fall back and macro up, especially if reapers are on the way to my base. how do you 100% kill P or T workers? the enemys don't react or what? pulling back his own reapers and zergling, though vs zealots it will probably work cuz they take ages to walk back into the base. but even then you won't kill most workers of 2 bases with 2 reapers alone... at least not on the level i'm playing on. what about 10 pool/ 9 rax? which has a way better economy then the all-in 6 pool (which even won't have speed). you just point out one specific counter, which ONLY works if your ally is terran, going for reapers himself and is not getting rushed, ignoring the rest of the problem. | ||
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Immersion_
United Kingdom794 Posts
On September 01 2010 23:33 fleeze wrote: i thought the bunker was in the base of the first rush victim, whos wall-in will go down pretty fast. if i see a bunker in the second base and an additional one in the mineral line, i'd just fall back and macro up, especially if reapers are on the way to my base. how do you 100% kill P or T workers? the enemys don't react or what? pulling back his own reapers and zergling, though vs zealots it will probably work cuz they take ages to walk back into the base. but even then you won't kill most workers of 2 bases with 2 reapers alone... at least not on the level i'm playing on. what about 10 pool/ 9 rax? which has a way better economy then the all-in 6 pool (which even won't have speed). you just point out one specific counter, which ONLY works if your ally is terran, going for reapers himself and is not getting rushed, ignoring the rest of the problem. Terran will ALWAYS wall in so they always rush the non terran, the person being cheesed (6pool + reaper) is automatically dead, the point is you should realize this and use the time provided to gain the upper hand for your ally. Therefore this works if one member of your team is Terran, marines work just as well as reapers for harass (he has nothing in his base) 10 pool 9 rax if you lose to it and didn't wall in time you need to learn to scout/wall in, and that is not what this post was concerning. This is an entire solution to being super cheesed (variants inc in OP) provided one member of your team is terran, I think that's reasonably helpful. | ||
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starrywisdom
United States26 Posts
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Gnial
Canada907 Posts
(Disclaimer: high diamond 1's and 2's. I was having a lot of trouble with cheeses in 2v2 largely since my main 2v2 matchup is PP, and PP is pretty easy to cheese against. In 1v1 there is this great taboo against static D since you cannot threaten attack with it. In 2v2, I think you just need to throw off all your 1's pre-conceptions about static D and just go for it (when you scout cheese). It works so freaking well. The build order I have been using with my several protoss 2's partners for REALLY early cheese is as follows: 1. 10 or 12 gate partial wall at ramp, scout on 9 or 10 pylon. 2. Do not build anything else, unless it is a really long scout distance, until you know what is going on. 3. If early cheese is scouted, if in separate bases stop making probes, chrono zealot and both throw down forge, and pylon back at main. If in a shared base, 1 person forge, 1 person cyber. The reason for forge is that they are hurting their own economy to cheese so early, so you can throw down that forge without disadvantaging yourself down the road. 4. Depending on the type of cheese, if zealots/zerglings are involved, FULLY WALL OFF with 1+ cannons behind. Depending on how many terrans, or if your teammate has stalkers, build a cannon or 2 at your mineral line. Note that the wall-off and early zealot can delay any ground push until the cannon gets up. Reapers take a bit of extra time anyways - you can micro probes/scvs/drones to buy time. Problem solved! Now you have cannons up for later on in the game, forges for a quick upgrade timing attack, and an economic (and possibly a tech) advantage! Just knock down a building in your wall to push out. This strat also works for Terran, who can wall off and build bunkers. (Ideally try to get a marauder for dealing with reapers) I don't have a solution for any sort of Z matchup. I suppose I would recommend mass sunken? Just haven't tried it enough...Perhaps if you have a Z on your team you should be doing the early cheese  | ||
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Lipstickz
Denmark16 Posts
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