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Having played another 20 2v2's, and most of them involving some combination of cheese involving:
6/7/8 Pool ling
6/7/8 Rax Reaper -> more reapers
2 gate proxy
While dealing with any 1 of these in 1v1's is a breeze with scouting, trying to do so in 2v2's with certain match ups lends some problems. I was thinking about listing each issue, but I don't want to read 20 replays reading like "Hey there, I have the solution for you(probably pretty unsupported and saturated with theorycrafting). In short, when walling off, it leaves u susceptible to reapers in your main. When turtling up it leaves your opponent out to dry.
This thought crossed my mind. What if some 2v2 maps incorporated breakable rocks via the main ground path between bases? Just like those old novice maps, which allows the newest of players to have the ability to breath and play for at least a few minutes.
This can or can not(im leaning towards cannot) block reaper movement. I don't really think it should because some maps, the mains are already fairly protected. But having JUST reapers are fine and are balanced well for cheese. This suggestion would mainly slow down the rine/zealot addition to the reapers. Not enough to not make it impossible to still cheese, but just enough to allow the non-zerg teammate to get something out and turn the cheeses into micro battles, as opposed to just build order choices.
I have been browsing alot of "2v2 help" threads and ALOT if not all replys are chucked full of theory craft that look great on paper, but aren't realistically possible versus proper cheeses.
Again, this is just off a whym to help improve the evolution of 2v2's and isn't an idea I am 100% for, just wanted to post my thoughts and see what the community can think up on the suggestion.
Please read before posting
+ Show Spoiler +
I am a 1000 Diamond 1v1 Random player.
I am also a 800-900 Diamond 2v2 Random player
My partner is basically the same 1v1 Random Skill player
My partner is also the same level Diamond Random Player(duh)
This is not a "whine" thread saying cheese is OP.
I am not trying to ask players for specific advice on how to counter cheeses.
With over 200 games played (just post retail) in 2v2's both as random players, we have tried every combination of builds/wall in techniques. And the issue isn't about scouting, because even seeing it there is no proper response to handle a 2v1
I am not trying to sound like an elitist and i KNOW i am not the greatest SC2 player in the world, and that Blizz ranks are FUBAR, but please do respect my decently high experience and refrain from the notion of "i am better than you, I have the answer" unless of course you have a REPLAY supported counter cheese strategy.
Please keep posts on topic
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Hey mate.
First of all, thx for the stream tonight (EU player here). Started to watch it and was really pleased how you and your buddy hadle things and "sometimes" don't take it seriously when you loose to those things you've pointed out. Me? I need to take s freaking smoke after another 6pool owning me or my friend, we're pretty casual and both play diamond 1v1, but just started in 2v2 and HELL YEAH it's so frustrating atm...
After we got quite easy into top platina, the only thing we meet now is some kinda of "cheese" builds or MU, like double Z or P, just going proxy or both 6 pools etc.
It's not easy to find a decent strat for 2v2 atm, honestly I don't understand why. Maybe people tend to go 1v1 more or coz it's so damn annoying from time to time.
Again, thx alot for the stream, came home late and wanted to check out something and stumbled upon you 2. Say hello to your partner and keep up the good work. It was fun to watch you guys.
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On September 01 2010 15:55 BreakUrSelf wrote:
Hey mate.
First of all, thx for the stream tonight (EU player here). Started to watch it and was really pleased how you and your buddy hadle things and "sometimes" don't take it seriously when you loose to those things you've pointed out. Me? I need to take s freaking smoke after another 6pool owning me or my friend, we're pretty casual and both play diamond 1v1, but just started in 2v2 and HELL YEAH it's so frustrating atm...
After we got quite easy into top platina, the only thing we meet now is some kinda of "cheese" builds or MU, like double Z or P, just going proxy or both 6 pools etc.
It's not easy to find a decent strat for 2v2 atm, honestly I don't understand why. Maybe people tend to go 1v1 more or coz it's so damn annoying from time to time.
Again, thx alot for the stream, came home late and wanted to check out something and stumbled upon you 2. Say hello to your partner and keep up the good work. It was fun to watch you guys.
Thanks for your post, its nice to know someone appreciates the 2v2's. I've been meaning to do it since I don't know of any other serious 2v2's streams. I will stream more often.
Whenever we get past that "cheese" stage we have some pretty amazing games with some great team tactic strategies, didn't get to showcase too many of them tonight, but hopefully after the patch cheeses wont be seen as often.
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im not a fan of the breakable rocks idea, your basically punishing zerg and protoss for not having reapers early
honestly just use a less economical opening as the default for 2v2 and cheese wont hinder you as much
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I think it'll be better after next patch. I hate the destructible rock idea. What's to stop two terrans from both going reaper and killing the zerg? Then you can't even help defend or counter attack because the destructible rocks actually work in favour of terran going reaper.
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I agree that 2v2 (and greater) cheese is much more prevalant and effective, cause there's a lot less you can do when you get lingreapered in the first minutes of a game. In a 1v1, you can stop it, but you're not dealing with both at the same time. In 2v2, because both of the units in question are pretty damn fast, there's no way your ally can save you in time.
Or you're on a map like twilight fortress, which has a 10 mile walk from base to base and the whole shared base thing with in-house naturals, and it instead probably turns into mass battlecruiser or something equally ridiculous due to how easy it is to turtle on 4 combined bases.
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On September 01 2010 16:39 guitarizt wrote:
I think it'll be better after next patch. I hate the destructible rock idea. What's to stop two terrans from both going reaper and killing the zerg? Then you can't even help defend or counter attack because the destructible rocks actually work in favour of terran going reaper.
I was implying the rocks would be between "us" and "them." Not between teammates bases. But yeah double reaper would still be a problem too.
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I think the main issue is that the game is not balanced around 2v2. Some things, like 6pool+7rax proxy reapers, are impossible to defend.
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the destructible rocks idea is just horrible.
so only terrans will be able to rush in 2vs2s now?
taking out rushes via those newbie rocks cannot be the solution.
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Having the exact same issues. After having played a ton of team games it seems like it's just rolling the dice. One build order will keep you save against cheese A and B, but if he goes C or D with a team mate or two, you're dead. Early pool and just massing lings till the enemy falls over coupled with mass reapers seems to be the worst combination. In 1v1 I've absolutely no issue with cheese, but it's another thing when it's 2v1.
Maybe do something about the ramps? In team games, they're absurdly large, and in 3v3+ there are often multiply entrances to your base which makes early pool mass ling really hard to deal with, especially if there's 2+ zerg doing it, since you just can't wall off fast enough.
The distances seems really short as well and really promotes rushing early too.
I find it acceptable that it's possible to win by microing well with a small skirmish force early on, but when it's pretty much impossible to scout in time and then react to it, it becomes a problem and extremely frustrating to play. A vast majority of the games just seems to be who can cheese or proxy the other team fastest, which I personally find extremely lacklustering and boring.
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I think the destructible rock stuff would be detrimental for game quality overall, being unable to scout your opponent unless you are Z (overlord) or T (reaper/scan) makes for a really stupid gambling game. Early scouting and safe play does hold of cheeses even in 2v2, at least as Z+T the only time I have lost more than an off game to cheese was when the 6/7/8 pool+6/7 rax reapers first surfaced, but adapting my allies build to a slightly earlier reaper resulted in us easily crushing these builds.
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On September 01 2010 18:25 Lipstickz wrote:
Having the exact same issues. After having played a ton of team games it seems like it's just rolling the dice. One build order will keep you save against cheese A and B, but if he goes C or D with a team mate or two, you're dead. Early pool and just massing lings till the enemy falls over coupled with mass reapers seems to be the worst combination. In 1v1 I've absolutely no issue with cheese, but it's another thing when it's 2v1.
Maybe do something about the ramps? In team games, they're absurdly large, and in 3v3+ there are often multiply entrances to your base which makes early pool mass ling really hard to deal with, especially if there's 2+ zerg doing it, since you just can't wall off fast enough.
The distances seems really short as well and really promotes rushing early too.
I find it acceptable that it's possible to win by microing well with a small skirmish force early on, but when it's pretty much impossible to scout in time and then react to it, it becomes a problem and extremely frustrating to play. A vast majority of the games just seems to be who can cheese or proxy the other team fastest, which I personally find extremely lacklustering and boring.
while i agree that the rushes are an issue in 2v2 i don't think these are suitable solutions.
when fixing this it should not be that 1 race has a distinct disadvantage or advantage.
with rocks between the bases you will make terran and reapers even more op, since every protoss or zerg will have to prepare for reapers, if they go for an economical build your behind and you can't punish them.
changing ramps and chokes will set zerg behind. they can't wall in so every team with a zerg will be at a disadvantage. it's hard enough atm as zerg if your getting rushed by 2 enemys so giving t and p an even greater advantage (they can at least block their choke on most maps even now).
easiest solution would be taking reapers out of the game 
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Destructable rocks will only lead into mass air tech, same as it does in the practice leagues.
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ha ha i love 2v2 with a good player as a partner. me and my mate have just become awesome in late game 2v2s. once you get games with no cheese they are so GREAT!
i play zerg my friend players protoss and we pull out some of the sickest gameplay combos.
some of them:
fungal growth + psi storm = dead anything 
contaminate on OC + DT massacre = bm'd opponents
mothership vortex + banelings = OMFG ROFL LOL!!!!!! BANELINGS KILLED VOID RAYS!!!!!!
colosus push + burrowed infestors walling off their flank with IT's = ground units getting raped.
sentry forcefield behind units + banelings charging like ninja horsies = dead stuff
Phoenix lifting tanks + ling surge = epic movie scene battle.
love the shit you can do in 2v2
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Cheese is way too prominent in 2v2s, I agree. Every other game is just filled with cheese, to the point where it's like a cheese fountain just looking a the 2v2 selection button.
But seriously. What's worse is that I almost always choose the wrong opening. If I do an anti-rush build, they go econ/tech. If I do the econ/tech opening, they do cheese/early push.
And, being Zerg, it's almost impossible to survive a cheese/early push because the lack of a wall punishes you double. Maybe you can survive a single-person cheese, but doubled up? No way. You'll be crippled or dead before your partner can get to you on most maps.
On September 01 2010 19:04 TyrantPotato wrote:
i play zerg my friend players protoss and we pull out some of the sickest gameplay combos.
Another good combo is Muta+Banshee harass. Ohmy, the fun my 2v2 partner and I have when we pull that off.
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fine for you, but bragging about late game strategies in 2v2 is no solution against early game cheeses which this thread is about...
if you have nothing to contribute why bother posting and pulling this thread off topic?
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worst idea for 2x2 i heared in a while ..
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It really comes down to proper micro/scouting. My partner and I share control and that helps, but it does come down to a lot of trust and feeling for your teammate. One of us might have to buy time and take damage, run workers, etc, but the other one has enough time to be in a nice macro position to curbstomp both rushers. You have to spread the damage/time of their rush across buildings, workers, units in such a way that they exhaust themselves.
Also there are times when it is totally legit to lay down 4 spines; you gotta do whatever it takes vs a 2v1 sometimes.
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I think the solution would be to change the maps! Not with destructable rocks, but to simply put allies bases right next to each other with only one entrance (which is the case in some of the maps). This way you wont have to fight 2v1 cause your ally is right next to you. This would make for some much more interesting matches. I actually enjoy 2v2 the most, but am getting sick of these annoying cheese tactics. Been playing som 3v3 and 4v4 lately and here it is even worse. It is all about who can rush the fastest and it kinda sucks!
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On September 01 2010 19:59 Tmdemo wrote:
I think the solution would be to change the maps! Not with destructable rocks, but to simply put allies bases right next to each other with only one entrance (which is the case in some of the maps). This way you wont have to fight 2v1 cause your ally is right next to you. This would make for some much more interesting matches. I actually enjoy 2v2 the most, but am getting sick of these annoying cheese tactics. Been playing som 3v3 and 4v4 lately and here it is even worse. It is all about who can rush the fastest and it kinda sucks!
ah this is actually even worse of an idea, sounds like you enjoy bronze 2x2
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EPT
