|
Having played another 20 2v2's, and most of them involving some combination of cheese involving:
6/7/8 Pool ling
6/7/8 Rax Reaper -> more reapers
2 gate proxy
While dealing with any 1 of these in 1v1's is a breeze with scouting, trying to do so in 2v2's with certain match ups lends some problems. I was thinking about listing each issue, but I don't want to read 20 replays reading like "Hey there, I have the solution for you(probably pretty unsupported and saturated with theorycrafting). In short, when walling off, it leaves u susceptible to reapers in your main. When turtling up it leaves your opponent out to dry.
This thought crossed my mind. What if some 2v2 maps incorporated breakable rocks via the main ground path between bases? Just like those old novice maps, which allows the newest of players to have the ability to breath and play for at least a few minutes.
This can or can not(im leaning towards cannot) block reaper movement. I don't really think it should because some maps, the mains are already fairly protected. But having JUST reapers are fine and are balanced well for cheese. This suggestion would mainly slow down the rine/zealot addition to the reapers. Not enough to not make it impossible to still cheese, but just enough to allow the non-zerg teammate to get something out and turn the cheeses into micro battles, as opposed to just build order choices.
I have been browsing alot of "2v2 help" threads and ALOT if not all replys are chucked full of theory craft that look great on paper, but aren't realistically possible versus proper cheeses.
Again, this is just off a whym to help improve the evolution of 2v2's and isn't an idea I am 100% for, just wanted to post my thoughts and see what the community can think up on the suggestion.
Please read before posting
+ Show Spoiler +
I am a 1000 Diamond 1v1 Random player.
I am also a 800-900 Diamond 2v2 Random player
My partner is basically the same 1v1 Random Skill player
My partner is also the same level Diamond Random Player(duh)
This is not a "whine" thread saying cheese is OP.
I am not trying to ask players for specific advice on how to counter cheeses.
With over 200 games played (just post retail) in 2v2's both as random players, we have tried every combination of builds/wall in techniques. And the issue isn't about scouting, because even seeing it there is no proper response to handle a 2v1
I am not trying to sound like an elitist and i KNOW i am not the greatest SC2 player in the world, and that Blizz ranks are FUBAR, but please do respect my decently high experience and refrain from the notion of "i am better than you, I have the answer" unless of course you have a REPLAY supported counter cheese strategy.
Please keep posts on topic
|
Hey mate.
First of all, thx for the stream tonight (EU player here). Started to watch it and was really pleased how you and your buddy hadle things and "sometimes" don't take it seriously when you loose to those things you've pointed out. Me? I need to take s freaking smoke after another 6pool owning me or my friend, we're pretty casual and both play diamond 1v1, but just started in 2v2 and HELL YEAH it's so frustrating atm...
After we got quite easy into top platina, the only thing we meet now is some kinda of "cheese" builds or MU, like double Z or P, just going proxy or both 6 pools etc.
It's not easy to find a decent strat for 2v2 atm, honestly I don't understand why. Maybe people tend to go 1v1 more or coz it's so damn annoying from time to time.
Again, thx alot for the stream, came home late and wanted to check out something and stumbled upon you 2. Say hello to your partner and keep up the good work. It was fun to watch you guys.
|
On September 01 2010 15:55 BreakUrSelf wrote:
Hey mate.
First of all, thx for the stream tonight (EU player here). Started to watch it and was really pleased how you and your buddy hadle things and "sometimes" don't take it seriously when you loose to those things you've pointed out. Me? I need to take s freaking smoke after another 6pool owning me or my friend, we're pretty casual and both play diamond 1v1, but just started in 2v2 and HELL YEAH it's so frustrating atm...
After we got quite easy into top platina, the only thing we meet now is some kinda of "cheese" builds or MU, like double Z or P, just going proxy or both 6 pools etc.
It's not easy to find a decent strat for 2v2 atm, honestly I don't understand why. Maybe people tend to go 1v1 more or coz it's so damn annoying from time to time.
Again, thx alot for the stream, came home late and wanted to check out something and stumbled upon you 2. Say hello to your partner and keep up the good work. It was fun to watch you guys.
Thanks for your post, its nice to know someone appreciates the 2v2's. I've been meaning to do it since I don't know of any other serious 2v2's streams. I will stream more often.
Whenever we get past that "cheese" stage we have some pretty amazing games with some great team tactic strategies, didn't get to showcase too many of them tonight, but hopefully after the patch cheeses wont be seen as often.
|
im not a fan of the breakable rocks idea, your basically punishing zerg and protoss for not having reapers early
honestly just use a less economical opening as the default for 2v2 and cheese wont hinder you as much
|
I think it'll be better after next patch. I hate the destructible rock idea. What's to stop two terrans from both going reaper and killing the zerg? Then you can't even help defend or counter attack because the destructible rocks actually work in favour of terran going reaper.
|
I agree that 2v2 (and greater) cheese is much more prevalant and effective, cause there's a lot less you can do when you get lingreapered in the first minutes of a game. In a 1v1, you can stop it, but you're not dealing with both at the same time. In 2v2, because both of the units in question are pretty damn fast, there's no way your ally can save you in time.
Or you're on a map like twilight fortress, which has a 10 mile walk from base to base and the whole shared base thing with in-house naturals, and it instead probably turns into mass battlecruiser or something equally ridiculous due to how easy it is to turtle on 4 combined bases.
|
On September 01 2010 16:39 guitarizt wrote:
I think it'll be better after next patch. I hate the destructible rock idea. What's to stop two terrans from both going reaper and killing the zerg? Then you can't even help defend or counter attack because the destructible rocks actually work in favour of terran going reaper.
I was implying the rocks would be between "us" and "them." Not between teammates bases. But yeah double reaper would still be a problem too.
|
I think the main issue is that the game is not balanced around 2v2. Some things, like 6pool+7rax proxy reapers, are impossible to defend.
|
the destructible rocks idea is just horrible.
so only terrans will be able to rush in 2vs2s now?
taking out rushes via those newbie rocks cannot be the solution.
|
Having the exact same issues. After having played a ton of team games it seems like it's just rolling the dice. One build order will keep you save against cheese A and B, but if he goes C or D with a team mate or two, you're dead. Early pool and just massing lings till the enemy falls over coupled with mass reapers seems to be the worst combination. In 1v1 I've absolutely no issue with cheese, but it's another thing when it's 2v1.
Maybe do something about the ramps? In team games, they're absurdly large, and in 3v3+ there are often multiply entrances to your base which makes early pool mass ling really hard to deal with, especially if there's 2+ zerg doing it, since you just can't wall off fast enough.
The distances seems really short as well and really promotes rushing early too.
I find it acceptable that it's possible to win by microing well with a small skirmish force early on, but when it's pretty much impossible to scout in time and then react to it, it becomes a problem and extremely frustrating to play. A vast majority of the games just seems to be who can cheese or proxy the other team fastest, which I personally find extremely lacklustering and boring.
|
I think the destructible rock stuff would be detrimental for game quality overall, being unable to scout your opponent unless you are Z (overlord) or T (reaper/scan) makes for a really stupid gambling game. Early scouting and safe play does hold of cheeses even in 2v2, at least as Z+T the only time I have lost more than an off game to cheese was when the 6/7/8 pool+6/7 rax reapers first surfaced, but adapting my allies build to a slightly earlier reaper resulted in us easily crushing these builds.
|
On September 01 2010 18:25 Lipstickz wrote:
Having the exact same issues. After having played a ton of team games it seems like it's just rolling the dice. One build order will keep you save against cheese A and B, but if he goes C or D with a team mate or two, you're dead. Early pool and just massing lings till the enemy falls over coupled with mass reapers seems to be the worst combination. In 1v1 I've absolutely no issue with cheese, but it's another thing when it's 2v1.
Maybe do something about the ramps? In team games, they're absurdly large, and in 3v3+ there are often multiply entrances to your base which makes early pool mass ling really hard to deal with, especially if there's 2+ zerg doing it, since you just can't wall off fast enough.
The distances seems really short as well and really promotes rushing early too.
I find it acceptable that it's possible to win by microing well with a small skirmish force early on, but when it's pretty much impossible to scout in time and then react to it, it becomes a problem and extremely frustrating to play. A vast majority of the games just seems to be who can cheese or proxy the other team fastest, which I personally find extremely lacklustering and boring.
while i agree that the rushes are an issue in 2v2 i don't think these are suitable solutions.
when fixing this it should not be that 1 race has a distinct disadvantage or advantage.
with rocks between the bases you will make terran and reapers even more op, since every protoss or zerg will have to prepare for reapers, if they go for an economical build your behind and you can't punish them.
changing ramps and chokes will set zerg behind. they can't wall in so every team with a zerg will be at a disadvantage. it's hard enough atm as zerg if your getting rushed by 2 enemys so giving t and p an even greater advantage (they can at least block their choke on most maps even now).
easiest solution would be taking reapers out of the game 
|
Destructable rocks will only lead into mass air tech, same as it does in the practice leagues.
|
ha ha i love 2v2 with a good player as a partner. me and my mate have just become awesome in late game 2v2s. once you get games with no cheese they are so GREAT!
i play zerg my friend players protoss and we pull out some of the sickest gameplay combos.
some of them:
fungal growth + psi storm = dead anything 
contaminate on OC + DT massacre = bm'd opponents
mothership vortex + banelings = OMFG ROFL LOL!!!!!! BANELINGS KILLED VOID RAYS!!!!!!
colosus push + burrowed infestors walling off their flank with IT's = ground units getting raped.
sentry forcefield behind units + banelings charging like ninja horsies = dead stuff
Phoenix lifting tanks + ling surge = epic movie scene battle.
love the shit you can do in 2v2
|
Cheese is way too prominent in 2v2s, I agree. Every other game is just filled with cheese, to the point where it's like a cheese fountain just looking a the 2v2 selection button.
But seriously. What's worse is that I almost always choose the wrong opening. If I do an anti-rush build, they go econ/tech. If I do the econ/tech opening, they do cheese/early push.
And, being Zerg, it's almost impossible to survive a cheese/early push because the lack of a wall punishes you double. Maybe you can survive a single-person cheese, but doubled up? No way. You'll be crippled or dead before your partner can get to you on most maps.
On September 01 2010 19:04 TyrantPotato wrote:
i play zerg my friend players protoss and we pull out some of the sickest gameplay combos.
Another good combo is Muta+Banshee harass. Ohmy, the fun my 2v2 partner and I have when we pull that off.
|
fine for you, but bragging about late game strategies in 2v2 is no solution against early game cheeses which this thread is about...
if you have nothing to contribute why bother posting and pulling this thread off topic?
|
worst idea for 2x2 i heared in a while ..
|
It really comes down to proper micro/scouting. My partner and I share control and that helps, but it does come down to a lot of trust and feeling for your teammate. One of us might have to buy time and take damage, run workers, etc, but the other one has enough time to be in a nice macro position to curbstomp both rushers. You have to spread the damage/time of their rush across buildings, workers, units in such a way that they exhaust themselves.
Also there are times when it is totally legit to lay down 4 spines; you gotta do whatever it takes vs a 2v1 sometimes.
|
I think the solution would be to change the maps! Not with destructable rocks, but to simply put allies bases right next to each other with only one entrance (which is the case in some of the maps). This way you wont have to fight 2v1 cause your ally is right next to you. This would make for some much more interesting matches. I actually enjoy 2v2 the most, but am getting sick of these annoying cheese tactics. Been playing som 3v3 and 4v4 lately and here it is even worse. It is all about who can rush the fastest and it kinda sucks!
|
On September 01 2010 19:59 Tmdemo wrote:
I think the solution would be to change the maps! Not with destructable rocks, but to simply put allies bases right next to each other with only one entrance (which is the case in some of the maps). This way you wont have to fight 2v1 cause your ally is right next to you. This would make for some much more interesting matches. I actually enjoy 2v2 the most, but am getting sick of these annoying cheese tactics. Been playing som 3v3 and 4v4 lately and here it is even worse. It is all about who can rush the fastest and it kinda sucks!
ah this is actually even worse of an idea, sounds like you enjoy bronze 2x2
|
On September 01 2010 20:35 kAra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:59 Tmdemo wrote:
I think the solution would be to change the maps! Not with destructable rocks, but to simply put allies bases right next to each other with only one entrance (which is the case in some of the maps). This way you wont have to fight 2v1 cause your ally is right next to you. This would make for some much more interesting matches. I actually enjoy 2v2 the most, but am getting sick of these annoying cheese tactics. Been playing som 3v3 and 4v4 lately and here it is even worse. It is all about who can rush the fastest and it kinda sucks! ah this is actually even worse of an idea, sounds like you enjoy bronze 2x2
please eaborate sweetie! im 800 diamond in 2v2. nickname tmdemo on eu server. how does this not solve the problem?
|
800 points is a very low rank atm and consits 50% of bonus pool, im currently top5 on the server with an ally i never played before(in sc1) and with playing my offrace
so i think you can just trust me that your idea is one of the worst i heared in the last weeks about 2x2
|
On September 01 2010 21:00 Tmdemo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 20:35 kAra wrote:On September 01 2010 19:59 Tmdemo wrote:
I think the solution would be to change the maps! Not with destructable rocks, but to simply put allies bases right next to each other with only one entrance (which is the case in some of the maps). This way you wont have to fight 2v1 cause your ally is right next to you. This would make for some much more interesting matches. I actually enjoy 2v2 the most, but am getting sick of these annoying cheese tactics. Been playing som 3v3 and 4v4 lately and here it is even worse. It is all about who can rush the fastest and it kinda sucks! ah this is actually even worse of an idea, sounds like you enjoy bronze 2x2 please eaborate sweetie! im 800 diamond in 2v2. nickname tmdemo on eu server. how does this not solve the problem?
there is nothing to elaborate. not many people enjoy the crappy 2v2 maps with shared bases and choke. it takes away so many strategies and leads to a tech fest.
this would just make 2v2 VERY boring.
so i think you can just trust me that your idea is one of the worst i heared in the last weeks about 2x2
you could at least state your reasons. why should anybody trust you just because say your top 5?
|
im not looking for attetion here, just trying to improve the 2vs2 discussion on this board, which is currently a joke.
|
You improve discussion by adding well reasoned input, not by simply stating your own belief and rudely telling people off for questioning them. That said this early in the game having a varied map pool is definitely the best as something can be said both for some of the joined/close allied base maps as well as for the more traditional maps. There are also enough down votes available to personalize your map pool to an acceptable degree.
|
I'd suggest something like a watch tower right near or perhaps inside the base. Currently, because 2v2 maps are just bigger than 1v1 maps, there is so many places you could possibly hide proxy. With additional sight, it can reduce the potency of some cheesy openings. It would take about 3 years to scout everything on some maps.
|
On September 01 2010 21:02 kAra wrote:
800 points is a very low rank atm and consits 50% of bonus pool, im currently top5 on the server with an ally i never played before(in sc1) and with playing my offrace
so i think you can just trust me that your idea is one of the worst i heared in the last weeks about 2x2
Well congratulations - you must be so proud! I dont care what rank you are. I only stated my rank cause you rudely said that in order for me to think it was a good idea i had to be a bronze player!
Whether or not you like the maps with shared bases really doesnt have anything to do with how good you are! I like the long macrogames, and always have the most fun in these maps. It is perfectly fine if you and most others think otherwise but i couldnt really know that before i stated this as an option!
With that said i really dont know why you think it takes away a lot of strategies? what stategies are you talking about - except for cheese?
|
These rushes are more than stoppable on maps with shared main. Don't do greedy openings and have good coordination with your ally. If you're talking random (randomy ally) 2v2 well nothing you can do about that.
Well OK the maps without a shared main maybe you can't hold these off. But really if you go like
10 gate
12 pool
9/10 rax
instead of
13 gate
14 pool
12 rax
you should be able to hold it off.
Maybe it's because you both play random, but I don't see why you can't hold them off if you're so highly rated.
I might have replays as Z/P or P/Z but not on my main comp until thursday.
Perhaps picking double random is the main problem.
Z/P and Z/T seem to be the best teams. Zerglings allow quick aid to your ally and queen+spinecrawler+lings defends everything except proxy gates very easily. (6 pools are way too slow vs 12 pool on big 2v2 maps)
If you're like T/P the only way you can do anything is to go reaper to help your P ally and wall in to defend yourself.
|
On September 01 2010 22:00 Tmdemo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:02 kAra wrote:
800 points is a very low rank atm and consits 50% of bonus pool, im currently top5 on the server with an ally i never played before(in sc1) and with playing my offrace
so i think you can just trust me that your idea is one of the worst i heared in the last weeks about 2x2 Well congratulations - you must be so proud! I dont care what rank you are. I only stated my rank cause you rudely said that in order for me to think it was a good idea i had to be a bronze player! Whether or not you like the maps with shared bases really doesnt have anything to do with how good you are! I like the long macrogames, and always have the most fun in these maps. It is perfectly fine if you and most others think otherwise but i couldnt really know that before i stated this as an option! With that said i really dont know why you think it takes away a lot of strategies? what stategies are you talking about - except for cheese?
army separation for example plays a huge role in every map with split bases. and it should be a viable strategy in 2on2s to separat the opposing armys or to force 2x 1v1. you just can't do that when they are on 1 base and only move out together.
also rushes should be viable and not completely blocked.
IMHO it is just the fucking overpowered reaper that makes this strategies nearly unstoppable. a zergling/zealot rush can be repelled at the choke as can zealot/marine, etc. it is only when reapers start wrecking havoc in your main and you have to abandon your choke when it becomes a severe problem as the zerglings or zealots can get in unhindered.
just because of the reaper you have to defend ALL of your main and not only the choke which is really hard in the early game.
|
I think the maps play a large role in the ability for cheese. Just having maps where your mineral line isn't by a cliff will prevent reapers from being able to harass non-stop.
Also I think BO's need to be developed that get units out faster in order to prevent cheese (despite that it may put you behind if no cheese comes). I have noticed that cheese can be stopped pretty easily as long as you get some well-placed static D. (Protoss has the toughest time with this).
As zerg getting an early pool and 1-2x Spine Crawlers can stop reapers & lings (assuming you get like 2-4 lings of your own). This definitely isn't ideal, but neither is losing to cheese each and every game.
As Terran going 9-10 Rax, building compact and getting a bunker up will shut down just about anything in the early minutes. Good thing about this is that you can recover using Mules and always salvage the bunker when its safe.
Protoss has the toughest time, you could go forge first but that is asking for your teammate to be killed. Personally I have seen the most success fending off cheese with either proxy-ing your own gates (allows you to at least base trade with 1 player especially zerg), or going 2x gate in main, but then you absolutely need your teammate to help handle reapers as the zealots will only buy time.
|
I have yet to see a 2v2 cheese strategy that cannot be countered by your ally building a reasonable defence and quickly counter attacking both their workers (literally a zealot each/4 marines/2 reapers/10 lings will accomplish this) while you are dying. Use your remaining SCVs to go and kill the enemy SCVs and slow them down as they won't be doing anything either. At the end of the day they cripple themselves 2v1ing you and it is so easy to mop up once their few workers have been taken care of.
If your ally is terran and knows what bunkers are this is literally a free win and we have never lost to cheese.
|
On September 01 2010 22:26 Immersion_ wrote:
I have yet to see a 2v2 cheese strategy that cannot be countered by your ally building a reasonable defence and quickly counter attacking both their workers (literally a zealot each/4 marines/2 reapers/10 lings will accomplish this) while you are dying. Use your remaining SCVs to go and kill the enemy SCVs and slow them down as they won't be doing anything either. At the end of the day they cripple themselves 2v1ing you and it is so easy to mop up once their few workers have been taken care of.
If your ally is terran and knows what bunkers are this is literally a free win and we have never lost to cheese.
what about zergling/reaper or zealot/reaper? you will be dead too if you decide to leave your base while your ally is being destroyed.
bunkers won't help you against reapers you know? they will either ignore them or tear them down REALLY fast with zealots or zerglings tanking.
i really don't think you play in diamond 2on2 if you've never lost to cheese....
|
On September 01 2010 22:35 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 22:26 Immersion_ wrote:
I have yet to see a 2v2 cheese strategy that cannot be countered by your ally building a reasonable defence and quickly counter attacking both their workers (literally a zealot each/4 marines/2 reapers/10 lings will accomplish this) while you are dying. Use your remaining SCVs to go and kill the enemy SCVs and slow them down as they won't be doing anything either. At the end of the day they cripple themselves 2v1ing you and it is so easy to mop up once their few workers have been taken care of.
If your ally is terran and knows what bunkers are this is literally a free win and we have never lost to cheese. what about zergling/reaper or zealot/reaper? you will be dead too if you decide to leave your base while your ally is being destroyed. bunkers won't help you against reapers you know? they will either ignore them or tear them down REALLY fast with zealots or zerglings tanking. i really don't think you play in diamond 2on2 if you've never lost to cheese....
How many reapers do you think he can pump out if all his SCVs are dead? You need a lot of reapers to take down bunkers with anyone but the slowest of "oh god I should probably repair that bunker" people.
You don't need to 'abandon' your base as I said literally 2 units can shut down their economy, counter reapers being the best method.
Edit: Just for clarification, my ally always walls in, the second we see the cheese he puts a bunker behind his wall, if we see reapers he also puts a bunker at his mineral line, sends out a few units while I'm dying, and then builds up. We share units so he can defend while I do the most effective harass on the enemy workers.
And yes I play in diamond 2v2.
|
On September 01 2010 22:39 Immersion_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 22:35 fleeze wrote:On September 01 2010 22:26 Immersion_ wrote:
I have yet to see a 2v2 cheese strategy that cannot be countered by your ally building a reasonable defence and quickly counter attacking both their workers (literally a zealot each/4 marines/2 reapers/10 lings will accomplish this) while you are dying. Use your remaining SCVs to go and kill the enemy SCVs and slow them down as they won't be doing anything either. At the end of the day they cripple themselves 2v1ing you and it is so easy to mop up once their few workers have been taken care of.
If your ally is terran and knows what bunkers are this is literally a free win and we have never lost to cheese. what about zergling/reaper or zealot/reaper? you will be dead too if you decide to leave your base while your ally is being destroyed. bunkers won't help you against reapers you know? they will either ignore them or tear them down REALLY fast with zealots or zerglings tanking. i really don't think you play in diamond 2on2 if you've never lost to cheese.... How many reapers do you think he can pump out if all his SCVs are dead? You need a lot of reapers to take down bunkers with anyone but the slowest of "oh god I should probably repair that bunker" people. You don't need to 'abandon' your base as I said literally 2 units can shut down their economy, counter reapers being the best method. And yes I play in diamond 2v2.
and your playing TT or what? since your ally has bunkers and you go reaper rush yourself...
the bunker will be ignored if you decide to repair it you will lose LOTS of scvs. mostly the bunker will be surrounded by zerglings/zealots so there is no place to repair.
and who let's his economy get shut down by 2 reapers? with both proxying ok hard to hold a counter, but what about a zerg in play? 2 reapers will lose against the queen and he will be reproducing zerglings which will own your 2 reapers and can eventually save his ally.
i don't believe you have never lost to cheese. NOBODY plays that perfect, especially in 2on2.
and not everyone plays terran.... and therefore can't counter reapers with reapers.
|
On September 01 2010 22:51 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 22:39 Immersion_ wrote:On September 01 2010 22:35 fleeze wrote:On September 01 2010 22:26 Immersion_ wrote:
I have yet to see a 2v2 cheese strategy that cannot be countered by your ally building a reasonable defence and quickly counter attacking both their workers (literally a zealot each/4 marines/2 reapers/10 lings will accomplish this) while you are dying. Use your remaining SCVs to go and kill the enemy SCVs and slow them down as they won't be doing anything either. At the end of the day they cripple themselves 2v1ing you and it is so easy to mop up once their few workers have been taken care of.
If your ally is terran and knows what bunkers are this is literally a free win and we have never lost to cheese. what about zergling/reaper or zealot/reaper? you will be dead too if you decide to leave your base while your ally is being destroyed. bunkers won't help you against reapers you know? they will either ignore them or tear them down REALLY fast with zealots or zerglings tanking. i really don't think you play in diamond 2on2 if you've never lost to cheese.... How many reapers do you think he can pump out if all his SCVs are dead? You need a lot of reapers to take down bunkers with anyone but the slowest of "oh god I should probably repair that bunker" people. You don't need to 'abandon' your base as I said literally 2 units can shut down their economy, counter reapers being the best method. And yes I play in diamond 2v2. and your playing TT or what? since your ally has bunkers and you go reaper rush yourself... the bunker will be ignored if you decide to repair it you will lose LOTS of scvs. mostly the bunker will be surrounded by zerglings/zealots so there is no place to repair. and who let's his economy get shut down by 2 reapers? with both proxying ok hard to hold a counter, but what about a zerg in play? 2 reapers will lose against the queen and he will be reproducing zerglings which will own your 2 reapers and can eventually save his ally. i don't believe you have never lost to cheese. NOBODY plays that perfect, especially in 2on2. and not everyone plays terran.... and therefore can't counter reapers with reapers.
I don't understand he can't attack the bunker with lings/lots it's behind a wall of buildings, if he ignores the one at ur line with reapers they will die in seconds. How can two well microd reapers possibly die to a queen, even supposing he somehow manages to get one out by the time you counter and not have <6 lings? At the very worst it becomes 1v1 and my ally has a better econ, you will kill all the Terran/Protoss workers 100% of the time and usually most of the zergs. If he 6/7 pooled/8 reapered by the time he tries to save his ally the damage has been done and my ally is at banshees. We play random + Terran.
|
On September 01 2010 22:59 Immersion_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 22:51 fleeze wrote:On September 01 2010 22:39 Immersion_ wrote:On September 01 2010 22:35 fleeze wrote:On September 01 2010 22:26 Immersion_ wrote:
I have yet to see a 2v2 cheese strategy that cannot be countered by your ally building a reasonable defence and quickly counter attacking both their workers (literally a zealot each/4 marines/2 reapers/10 lings will accomplish this) while you are dying. Use your remaining SCVs to go and kill the enemy SCVs and slow them down as they won't be doing anything either. At the end of the day they cripple themselves 2v1ing you and it is so easy to mop up once their few workers have been taken care of.
If your ally is terran and knows what bunkers are this is literally a free win and we have never lost to cheese. what about zergling/reaper or zealot/reaper? you will be dead too if you decide to leave your base while your ally is being destroyed. bunkers won't help you against reapers you know? they will either ignore them or tear them down REALLY fast with zealots or zerglings tanking. i really don't think you play in diamond 2on2 if you've never lost to cheese.... How many reapers do you think he can pump out if all his SCVs are dead? You need a lot of reapers to take down bunkers with anyone but the slowest of "oh god I should probably repair that bunker" people. You don't need to 'abandon' your base as I said literally 2 units can shut down their economy, counter reapers being the best method. And yes I play in diamond 2v2. and your playing TT or what? since your ally has bunkers and you go reaper rush yourself... the bunker will be ignored if you decide to repair it you will lose LOTS of scvs. mostly the bunker will be surrounded by zerglings/zealots so there is no place to repair. and who let's his economy get shut down by 2 reapers? with both proxying ok hard to hold a counter, but what about a zerg in play? 2 reapers will lose against the queen and he will be reproducing zerglings which will own your 2 reapers and can eventually save his ally. i don't believe you have never lost to cheese. NOBODY plays that perfect, especially in 2on2. and not everyone plays terran.... and therefore can't counter reapers with reapers. I don't understand he can't attack the bunker with lings/lots it's behind a wall of buildings, if he ignores the one at ur line with reapers they will die in seconds. How can two well microd reapers possibly die to a queen, even supposing he somehow manages to get one out by the time you counter and not have <6 lings? At the very worst it becomes 1v1 and my ally has a better econ, you will kill all the Terran/Protoss workers 100% of the time and usually most of the zergs. If he 6/7 pooled/8 reapered by the time he tries to save his ally the damage has been done and my ally is at banshees. We play random + Terran.
i thought the bunker was in the base of the first rush victim, whos wall-in will go down pretty fast.
if i see a bunker in the second base and an additional one in the mineral line, i'd just fall back and macro up, especially if reapers are on the way to my base.
how do you 100% kill P or T workers? the enemys don't react or what? pulling back his own reapers and zergling, though vs zealots it will probably work cuz they take ages to walk back into the base. but even then you won't kill most workers of 2 bases with 2 reapers alone... at least not on the level i'm playing on.
what about 10 pool/ 9 rax? which has a way better economy then the all-in 6 pool (which even won't have speed).
you just point out one specific counter, which ONLY works if your ally is terran, going for reapers himself and is not getting rushed, ignoring the rest of the problem.
|
On September 01 2010 23:33 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 22:59 Immersion_ wrote:On September 01 2010 22:51 fleeze wrote:On September 01 2010 22:39 Immersion_ wrote:On September 01 2010 22:35 fleeze wrote:On September 01 2010 22:26 Immersion_ wrote:
I have yet to see a 2v2 cheese strategy that cannot be countered by your ally building a reasonable defence and quickly counter attacking both their workers (literally a zealot each/4 marines/2 reapers/10 lings will accomplish this) while you are dying. Use your remaining SCVs to go and kill the enemy SCVs and slow them down as they won't be doing anything either. At the end of the day they cripple themselves 2v1ing you and it is so easy to mop up once their few workers have been taken care of.
If your ally is terran and knows what bunkers are this is literally a free win and we have never lost to cheese. what about zergling/reaper or zealot/reaper? you will be dead too if you decide to leave your base while your ally is being destroyed. bunkers won't help you against reapers you know? they will either ignore them or tear them down REALLY fast with zealots or zerglings tanking. i really don't think you play in diamond 2on2 if you've never lost to cheese.... How many reapers do you think he can pump out if all his SCVs are dead? You need a lot of reapers to take down bunkers with anyone but the slowest of "oh god I should probably repair that bunker" people. You don't need to 'abandon' your base as I said literally 2 units can shut down their economy, counter reapers being the best method. And yes I play in diamond 2v2. and your playing TT or what? since your ally has bunkers and you go reaper rush yourself... the bunker will be ignored if you decide to repair it you will lose LOTS of scvs. mostly the bunker will be surrounded by zerglings/zealots so there is no place to repair. and who let's his economy get shut down by 2 reapers? with both proxying ok hard to hold a counter, but what about a zerg in play? 2 reapers will lose against the queen and he will be reproducing zerglings which will own your 2 reapers and can eventually save his ally. i don't believe you have never lost to cheese. NOBODY plays that perfect, especially in 2on2. and not everyone plays terran.... and therefore can't counter reapers with reapers. I don't understand he can't attack the bunker with lings/lots it's behind a wall of buildings, if he ignores the one at ur line with reapers they will die in seconds. How can two well microd reapers possibly die to a queen, even supposing he somehow manages to get one out by the time you counter and not have <6 lings? At the very worst it becomes 1v1 and my ally has a better econ, you will kill all the Terran/Protoss workers 100% of the time and usually most of the zergs. If he 6/7 pooled/8 reapered by the time he tries to save his ally the damage has been done and my ally is at banshees. We play random + Terran. i thought the bunker was in the base of the first rush victim, whos wall-in will go down pretty fast. if i see a bunker in the second base and an additional one in the mineral line, i'd just fall back and macro up, especially if reapers are on the way to my base. how do you 100% kill P or T workers? the enemys don't react or what? pulling back his own reapers and zergling, though vs zealots it will probably work cuz they take ages to walk back into the base. but even then you won't kill most workers of 2 bases with 2 reapers alone... at least not on the level i'm playing on. what about 10 pool/ 9 rax? which has a way better economy then the all-in 6 pool (which even won't have speed). you just point out one specific counter, which ONLY works if your ally is terran, going for reapers himself and is not getting rushed, ignoring the rest of the problem.
Terran will ALWAYS wall in so they always rush the non terran, the person being cheesed (6pool + reaper) is automatically dead, the point is you should realize this and use the time provided to gain the upper hand for your ally. Therefore this works if one member of your team is Terran, marines work just as well as reapers for harass (he has nothing in his base) 10 pool 9 rax if you lose to it and didn't wall in time you need to learn to scout/wall in, and that is not what this post was concerning.
This is an entire solution to being super cheesed (variants inc in OP) provided one member of your team is terran, I think that's reasonably helpful.
|
My main issue with 2v2 aside from some the cheese that really is unstoppable - is how if you go 'random' 2v2 90% of the time it still matches you against a team - which is quite obnoxious. Every single one of my placement matches(and about 10 so after) were against a team of 2, alongside my one random - which is an overwhelming advantage for the other team 
|
No cheese is unstoppable in early 2v2.
(Disclaimer: high diamond 1's and 2's.
I was having a lot of trouble with cheeses in 2v2 largely since my main 2v2 matchup is PP, and PP is pretty easy to cheese against.
In 1v1 there is this great taboo against static D since you cannot threaten attack with it. In 2v2, I think you just need to throw off all your 1's pre-conceptions about static D and just go for it (when you scout cheese). It works so freaking well.
The build order I have been using with my several protoss 2's partners for REALLY early cheese is as follows:
1. 10 or 12 gate partial wall at ramp, scout on 9 or 10 pylon.
2. Do not build anything else, unless it is a really long scout distance, until you know what is going on.
3. If early cheese is scouted, if in separate bases stop making probes, chrono zealot and both throw down forge, and pylon back at main. If in a shared base, 1 person forge, 1 person cyber. The reason for forge is that they are hurting their own economy to cheese so early, so you can throw down that forge without disadvantaging yourself down the road.
4. Depending on the type of cheese, if zealots/zerglings are involved, FULLY WALL OFF with 1+ cannons behind. Depending on how many terrans, or if your teammate has stalkers, build a cannon or 2 at your mineral line. Note that the wall-off and early zealot can delay any ground push until the cannon gets up. Reapers take a bit of extra time anyways - you can micro probes/scvs/drones to buy time.
Problem solved! Now you have cannons up for later on in the game, forges for a quick upgrade timing attack, and an economic (and possibly a tech) advantage! Just knock down a building in your wall to push out.
This strat also works for Terran, who can wall off and build bunkers. (Ideally try to get a marauder for dealing with reapers)
I don't have a solution for any sort of Z matchup. I suppose I would recommend mass sunken? Just haven't tried it enough...Perhaps if you have a Z on your team you should be doing the early cheese
|
|
|
Gnial, that's a really good suggestion. You truly do have to forget about your 1's preconceptions because 2's is a completely different game that seems to be very cheese heavy for the time being. That said, if you can get past the cheese, it's a nice change from 1's with all the cool unit combos. My terran partner and I have recently been experimenting with a zealot thor rush with me (toss) dishing him all my gas in the early game. It's surprisingly effective and fun to play with.
Back on topic, one other idea I was thinking about is a simple game change in 2's not allowing buildings to be placed on the opposing side of the map for the first ~2-3 minutes. This would probably completely wipe proxy gates/reapers from 2's (which is fine by me), and not really effect any race's ability to scout or rush normally.
I was intrigued by the idea of rocks separating the teams but that does seem to cause scouting problems. We shouldn't pass that off as such a bad suggestion yet, but it would need tweaking. A modification of that could be to have the rocks have less life than the normal destructible rocks, so that they can be taken down by a single probe in ~30 sec to 1 min (or have them automatically blow up after a certain time). This would slow down cheese enough that it would be much more difficult to pull off, and really doesn't slow down scouting too much. It would give enough time to probably completely wall off on most maps though. I don't really see this a too big of a deal because a wall off can give you hints as to what your opponents are planning in and of itself.
PS I also have been working on your stalker void ray build against terran in 1's, and it's seen great success lately. I am almost on top of my diamond division. I've found that it is such a great response to the bio ball that damn near every terran I seem to play opens with. That was an awesome thread (although, like every other thread full of newbs)!
|
For any "suggestion" i am just dismissing until I see replay proof. I don't want to sound like an ass, but everything I have read I already know an easy cheese counter, but find it useless to type out each one.
And again no, this is not like an issue of scouting, like cheese is with 1v1's. We both always scout early and see almost every cheese coming. In fact when we see a match up, we already prepare for the cheese and still can not beat it.
Stop saying 800 elo is bad, because its not, for 2v2's. We are top 100 NA, so we are at the very least competent. And with 200 games played, we've seen it all.
No the rocks don't lead to mass air games. The rocks don't even have to be that strong, maybe just 300 hp. The whole point is so reaper+ling/zealot would have the lings/zealots delayed, just enough to have some sort of build decision making.
This doesn't lead to any sort of mid-game disadvantage for any race, as rocks are easily taken out. Even with blistering sands 1v1 rocks don't effect build choices for the midgame too much, have 2 players wouldn't do any much more.
Edit: The idea of scouting denying is sort of an issue with the rocks. There are ways around this like having mineral patches being able to be drilled through like on some BW maps. Again this "con" to my idea can be avoided, with proper map making.
|
On September 01 2010 22:02 Slayer91 wrote:
These rushes are more than stoppable on maps with shared main. Don't do greedy openings and have good coordination with your ally. If you're talking random (randomy ally) 2v2 well nothing you can do about that.
Well OK the maps without a shared main maybe you can't hold these off. But really if you go like
10 gate
12 pool
9/10 rax
instead of
13 gate
14 pool
12 rax
you should be able to hold it off.
Maybe it's because you both play random, but I don't see why you can't hold them off if you're so highly rated.
I might have replays as Z/P or P/Z but not on my main comp until thursday.
Perhaps picking double random is the main problem.
Z/P and Z/T seem to be the best teams. Zerglings allow quick aid to your ally and queen+spinecrawler+lings defends everything except proxy gates very easily. (6 pools are way too slow vs 12 pool on big 2v2 maps)
If you're like T/P the only way you can do anything is to go reaper to help your P ally and wall in to defend yourself.
Sorry for the double post, but I feel like i should comment on this one.
Yeah we have been experimenting with 10pooling when one of us is zerg. The problem with zergs are that if you have any sort of lings VS reapers, your basically not even in the game, until u get to roaches. Even if u get to speedlings you have probably lost enough lings/drones/made spines that you cant get that critical mass to stop the larger reaper force. And all during this time your teammate has been dying. Since reapers with the upgrade pack are so strong.
This entire game mechanic also applies to p. Since zealots while beefier still can't touch reapers.
Imagine 2x reaper vs ZvP. Ouch. Whats worse is that since its 2x reapers you can get to that critical mass of building sniping reapers twice as fast. Even if you can get a stalker building, your core can be sniped with 2-3 lobs.
|
double terran is lame as hell because of double reapers and double bioball
|
No, you cannot scout on maps with the rocks. That just makes cheese even easier, if a bit delayed. I do have a few small points though.
Scouting is KEY. 2s you need to send out earlier scouts because cheese is more effective and the maps are larger. 9th worker should generally be sent (latest).
I agree with Gnial - you need to throw out 1v1's principles. Static D in moderation is very useful on maps where your bases are positioned far enough away, but I don't think against a lot of rush game cheeses your static defense will be up by the time the enemy units arrive.
Another 1v1 principle you should throw out is that losing a base is bad. Don't try to save your ally's base if the game is still early. Just fast tech up to "hard hard" counters (banshees, void rays, mutas, dts). 1v2 is still fine because if you can survive you're in a big eco lead. Before the 200/200 mark you should be well ahead of the combined forces of the other two.
I generally try to wall off (as P/T, or position my queen well with a spine as Z), fast tech while macroing. With air I can generally cripple or kill one and set the other pretty far behind. Then with my eco advantage I abuse the upgrades - if totally they have the same resources as me, I only have to upgrade once for all of my units while they have to do it twice.
Also a trick with T while being cannon or bunker rushed is to lift off the CC and take the natural. By this time your barracks should be up or your ally should have units for you.
|
In 2v2 or larger teamgames we always send our first peon out to scout.
I play zerg and usually send the first drone i produce.
Scouting this early means i'm able to decide between 10 pool or 13 pool based on scouting information instead of doing a wild guess. It makes a huge difference.
We arrive soon enough to see if its Barracks first (reaper) or supply first( econ build) or if its 8 pool, 10 pool before ol, 10 pool after ol or 13 pool. And we can change our Buildorder based on the information.
We are also able to scout empty mains if they are proxy'ing and can react to it.
I highly suggest trying this super early scouting.
|
Lot of Good advice here specifically the points about scouting, taking towers when it makes sense, walling off completely as protoss when facing 6 pools, and having your ally send 1-2 Tier 1 units each against both of them while you defend against a double cheese attack all of which I've been doing successfully in my Diamond 2s.
I also fully agree that utilizing shared control is key, if they double cheese a single guy, he is most likely going to be wiped out no matter what you do, the trick is making sure your opponent pays for that by ensuring the surviving person makes the two attacking people pay for it, continues to out-economy them while successfully defending their base.
The key to always defeating cheese is by reacting appropriately and not over-reacting. Each case is different but every strategy is counterable, even if it isn't scouted in time.
The more traditional double rush (non cheese) defense strategies should be obvious and counterably by anyone in diamond at this point.
|
The best solution imo is to simply have bigger maps.
Think about it.
In 1v1 on 1v1 maps, there is a whole lot more cheese than on 4 player maps. You know where to rush, you can sneak a probe in his base without having to see him, and thus never appearing on his minimap, you know where to put the proxy, and so on.
I think the same principle should apply to multiplayer, not shared bases or noobie rocks.
Just playing 2v2 on an 8 player map instead of a 4 player map would seriously weaken a lot of proxy and rush action.
The maps wouldnt have to be that much bigger, you could cut down on the number of "additional" expos near the middle to still have roughly the same number of bases available on the map.
Tempest and high ground, with a few modifications, thats the maps we should play 2v2 on!
|
Yea i agree, most maps are too close and easy to rush. I tell ya, as protoss playing 2v2 if I see my opponents are Z/T, I already know they're going ling/reaper, which is a nightmare. Normally vs 6pool I rush for zealots, vs proxy rax reaper, I rush for stalkers. When I have both of them coming my way, I might as well just hit f10->n...
I think next time I see people cheesing me on 2v2 like that, I'm just gonna play cannon defence 
NME
-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1333926/NME
|
I'm the same as u -100 rating in 1's and 2's and I am frustrated and have no answer to the cheese except to also cheese. I actually like the destructable rocks idea because it is just so annoying playing cheese every single game and I have yet to hear of a better idea to stop it.
|
play terran. they are un-cheesable. rank 1 gold 2v2, i played P for ages, switched to T and its easy to defend cheese. ling/zeal rush = wall and repair while pumping rines, reapers = mauraders with concus. most cheeses you can also just lift of your buildings if you really need to while your partner goes air or something similar.
|
On September 02 2010 09:48 Jayzo wrote:
play terran. they are un-cheesable. rank 1 gold 2v2, i played P for ages, switched to T and its easy to defend cheese. ling/zeal rush = wall and repair while pumping rines, reapers = mauraders with concus. most cheeses you can also just lift of your buildings if you really need to while your partner goes air or something similar.
uhm, ling/zeal is not the problem and going fast marauder in 2on2 is generally not that good advice. zerglings or zealots will own it.
the protoss solution sounds good, walling of will really help against this and a fast tower at the choke will prevent zealots and zerglings supporting the reapers. problem could be that you need a really good cannon placement against his reapers because your stalker will be very late. thus your pretty immobile.
seems like zerg is the only race that can't react properly without setting themselves behind. you can't build at the choke because there is no creep this early in the game and throwing down crawlers costs you a lot of economy.
|
On September 01 2010 20:35 kAra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:59 Tmdemo wrote:
I think the solution would be to change the maps! Not with destructable rocks, but to simply put allies bases right next to each other with only one entrance (which is the case in some of the maps). This way you wont have to fight 2v1 cause your ally is right next to you. This would make for some much more interesting matches. I actually enjoy 2v2 the most, but am getting sick of these annoying cheese tactics. Been playing som 3v3 and 4v4 lately and here it is even worse. It is all about who can rush the fastest and it kinda sucks! ah this is actually even worse of an idea, sounds like you enjoy bronze 2x2
All I hear is blatant negativity and no actual productive input. The thing is kAra, you can't "improve" anything by saying "No that's wrong." Yeah that's one part of the equation but it'd probably help more if you'd say yourself what you think is right and build up on that.
I don't agree with the destructible rocks, I think they'd just lead to mass tech as mentioned before.
I feel the one choke thing is interesting, but I doubt it'll solve any cheese. What I think 2v2 might need to stop all this cheese is just have a really long rush distance, like in the old Twilight Fortress back in Beta.
|
i go 14 pool mass ling speed, my friend goes mass marine nothing on 8 or w/e and nothing beats us really except banelings i understand theres alot of cheese n stuff but 2bh you can beat it its not unstoppable
|
remove reapers, balance problem solved. Across the board for early game. Or make reaper cliff hopping ability part of the nitro pack upgrade, to slow it down.
The problem with reapers cliff hopping, is that they can do it SOOO early. Take colossus it can cliff walk, But it comes mid/late game when its POSSIBLE for the enemy to defend it.
To have such a versatile unit able to pop out Sooo early messes things up.
EASIEST fix... IMO is to make the maps with uncrossable/unjumpable "mote" around bases, with only the choke being the access point AS normal.
Nullifies early reaper harass or at least a LITTLE easier to deal with since you only have to defend choke, still allows other races to behave normally.
ALOT of the issues can be help with mapping.
|
Wow, lots of players have same problems it seems =)
Thing is, it's not the late game me and the OP are worried about I guess. Since me and my mate usually come up as winners (TZ), it's the damn first 5-7 mins in the game, esp it's hard for him since he's Z and kinda forced to either go heavy defence or cheese back and we're not huge fans of him going 6pool either, he thinks it's lame.But wth, it works for so many we meet=(
|
One thing I do agree with is double zerg would have a much harder time and ZP the P is in a far worse position to counter attack. You should expect to not be able to use the 1v1 strategies in 2v2 though, on the one hand, cheese is harder to deal with, on the other hand I think the economic disadvantage you go by going a slightly earlier pool/gate as a team when the opponents don't cheese is also relatively diminished ( and you end up being able to pressure them yourself)
|
I think "getting rid of the 1on1 assumptions" was the best thing said in this thread.
Just try to play 2on2 with a complete different mindset, like it was a complete different game.
|
Indeed, thanks Gnial! That simple line helped me and my team mate a ton. We're playing ZP and it has worked really well with just a cannon or two if we scout an early pool and early two gate/proxy gate coming up. He just makes a couple of sunkens and focuses a little more on defense, in worst case I'll send him minerals with my chronoboosted probes.
It's pretty funny though, more than half the games where we defend the early cheese, they simply leave instantly without a word.
|
There's a lot you can do in 2's to counter cheese and live through it. Unfortunately most of it does involve sacrifices to your econ but like others said, forget how 1v1 econ / build orders go otherwise you're going to continue to die and continue to whine about the cheese. A lot of whining is going on about reapers but there's actually things you can do to really screw up early reaper rushes a lot. Send an early scout, sit on the tech lab spot. I've started even throwing a pylon on the tech lab spot which forces them to lift the barracks and it's easier keeping a probe under the barracks so it can't land than it is keeping it on the tech lab spot with SCV's after you.
Some might now point out the proxy reaper, yeah those suck too but are fairly easily managed. You scout and don't find the rax then obviously the proxy is coming as well as something else from the ally. Wall completely off right then so support can't get in with the reaper since it's pretty much all in cheese and they lose if they don't kill one of you.
I use a different build in 2's, I will pretty much always 10-11 gate and also immediately core as gate finishes. These I always place at ramp to create a 1 space wall. I don't make the 1 zealot instead I sit on 100 minerals with a probe in that 1 square opening on hold P ready to make a pylon if i see lings or something. Chrono out the stalker to handle the reaper, wall keeps lings or whatever out so I can deal with them later, or maybe ally can kill them for me.
Overall the biggest breakthrough for me was when I just got over the fact that my econ is just not gonna be as great if I want to be sure I can live through cheese which happens so frequently. Take the hit, scout early, cut a couple early workers when your early scout spots the cheese. I've found how to deal with mostly all of it as protoss now, just takes time, practice, and trying to figure something out rather than just bitching about losing to it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
