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Russian Federation145 Posts
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On September 01 2010 13:07 Cedstick wrote:
1000 what? Silver?
why does it matter?
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On September 01 2010 13:07 Cedstick wrote:
1000 what? Silver?
yeah, great post cedstick. you really add a lot to the community.
OP have you tried more of a mix of MM and mech, as opposed to going all MMM or pure mech?
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Mech can still work if you add rines or vikings. If you add rines tho you gota have really good micro and try and sacrifice hellions for the blings. If you can get mech and viking tho your set agaisnt ling/bling/muta
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The only problem with TvZ are mass banelings that kill marines and the muta follow up that kills everything else. I've found medivac+thors and dropping the thors infront of the MM ball to be effective for low baneling numbers. Anything above 25 banelings requires hunter seeker missles to soften the banelings up.
As long as you find a way to keep the marines safe, then zerg can't really win with anything else unless they have a huge macro advantage.
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Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective.
Keep in mind:
- Armor upgrades further tilt the fight in your favour, if you use thors against s-key mutas.
- If you move your thor slightly, the mutas will reclump up to acquire him - you just need the mutas to stay in a clump for 3 seconds to get completely shredded.
Basically, before people 'figured out' s-key muta, you could be completely immune to an arbitrary amount of mutalisks using 3 or so thors completely un-microd. Now, your thors still beat mutalisks, but you either have to spend a similar amount of money as him, or you have to micro very very slightly by spreading your thors out and moving it out of the massive 3 range of the mutalisk.
Mech is still incredibly strong versus zerg, you just need to tailor your unit composition to his, you cannot go with an arbitrary ratio of tanks/hellions/thors and automatically be safe against whatever he throws at you. If he goes heavy hydra (lolol) make more tanks and hellions. If he goes for lots of lings/mutas, make more hellions/thors. If he goes heavy roaches, make more tanks and thors.
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On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective.
That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless.
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Has to be the first serious TVZ help thread I have ever seen since retail.
But yeah I agree that the hole "s-key" mutas hype is so overplayed. As a random player I have faced both sides of the debate. And the s-keying mutas works wonders against just thors, and look great on paper(YABOT/ Unit Tester). But in reality thors are going to have either scvs or more likely, a ton of marines. Even worse, is stim and medivacs.
The whole s-key hype is like saying, "this offensive linemen weighs 260 lbs, this defensive linemen weighs 210 lbs. Therefor the running back will rush for 200 yards this game."
There are too many other factors in the game other that just straight DPS on DPS.
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On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless.
Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it.
Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units.
If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more.
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Russian Federation145 Posts
(I've long since edited the OP to show you how skillful I am, not that it matters much if you actually watch the replays or anything.)
On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless. Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it. Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units. If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more.
That's great, except that taking a third as a terran would do nothing except delay your push until zerg has ultras. I guess that's okay though if you're shooting for BCs or mass ravens or w/e, but I'm really looking for a ground army that is at least a little bit cost effective against zerg.
I've never actually tried constant 2fac thors as support units though, I've only failed 1fac, maybe that's like the terran's version of 2 stargate phoenix. I'll have to try that out today.
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Yes subversion, I've tried a mix of MM and Mech, but that's not the optimal combination of units. Like I said, pure 3fac tanks with marines and medics to deal with the mutas is the only thing that seems to have any effect at stopping mutabling/mutainfestorling. The problem is that it doesn't work on far locations on large maps and is just generally going to be nerfed in the next patch.
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On September 01 2010 20:40 TheDrill wrote:(I've long since edited the OP to show you how skillful I am, not that it matters much if you actually watch the replays or anything.) Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless. Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it. Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units. If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more. That's great, except that taking a third as a terran would do nothing except delay your push until zerg has ultras. I guess that's okay though if you're shooting for BCs or mass ravens or w/e, but I'm really looking for a ground army that is at least a little bit cost effective against zerg. I've never actually tried constant 2fac thors as support units though, I've only failed 1fac, maybe that's like the terran's version of 2 stargate phoenix. I'll have to try that out today.
Honestly, thors are cost effective against mutas, upgraded thors are VERY cost effective against mutas, and micro'd thors are complete rape against mutas, since by moving the thor you force the mutas to clump up to shoot unless he respreads them out.
In terms of mineral/unit, gas/unit, supply/unit, build-time/unit thors are strictly superior to s-key muta, they are just not a complete and utter crushing counter the way say, blue flame hellions are against zergling or tanks are against hydra.
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On September 01 2010 21:17 Mearis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 20:40 TheDrill wrote:(I've long since edited the OP to show you how skillful I am, not that it matters much if you actually watch the replays or anything.) On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless. Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it. Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units. If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more. That's great, except that taking a third as a terran would do nothing except delay your push until zerg has ultras. I guess that's okay though if you're shooting for BCs or mass ravens or w/e, but I'm really looking for a ground army that is at least a little bit cost effective against zerg. I've never actually tried constant 2fac thors as support units though, I've only failed 1fac, maybe that's like the terran's version of 2 stargate phoenix. I'll have to try that out today. Honestly, thors are cost effective against mutas, upgraded thors are VERY cost effective against mutas, and micro'd thors are complete rape against mutas, since by moving the thor you force the mutas to clump up to shoot unless he respreads them out. In terms of mineral/unit, gas/unit, supply/unit, build-time/unit thors are strictly superior to s-key muta, they are just not a complete and utter crushing counter the way say, blue flame hellions are against zergling or tanks are against hydra.
Yea, I don't know why this guy is so resistant to your suggestions, upgraded thors are extremely effective vs muta, even with magic box thors are scary. Not to mention thors do well against ling/bling as well.
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On September 01 2010 21:36 Chriamon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:17 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 20:40 TheDrill wrote:(I've long since edited the OP to show you how skillful I am, not that it matters much if you actually watch the replays or anything.) On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless. Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it. Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units. If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more. That's great, except that taking a third as a terran would do nothing except delay your push until zerg has ultras. I guess that's okay though if you're shooting for BCs or mass ravens or w/e, but I'm really looking for a ground army that is at least a little bit cost effective against zerg. I've never actually tried constant 2fac thors as support units though, I've only failed 1fac, maybe that's like the terran's version of 2 stargate phoenix. I'll have to try that out today. Honestly, thors are cost effective against mutas, upgraded thors are VERY cost effective against mutas, and micro'd thors are complete rape against mutas, since by moving the thor you force the mutas to clump up to shoot unless he respreads them out. In terms of mineral/unit, gas/unit, supply/unit, build-time/unit thors are strictly superior to s-key muta, they are just not a complete and utter crushing counter the way say, blue flame hellions are against zergling or tanks are against hydra. Yea, I don't know why this guy is so resistant to your suggestions, upgraded thors are extremely effective vs muta, even with magic box thors are scary. Not to mention thors do well against ling/bling as well.
Thors do amazing versus bling (why oh why would anyone use them against thors is beyond me) but they do terrible versus zerglings. If someone sends out a bunch of thors without hellion cover, a few hatcheries worth of zerglings will mop them up.
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If you want to play macro against zerg you must be passive until you get your third base IMO. Then you just have to be very careful not to waste your army. Also it is crucial to get air control early by using vikings and ravens with hsm. While you build your viking/raven force you must turtle with tanks and bunkers/rax wall (at your nat). Once you get air control suddenly it becomes a lot easier, all you have to worry about are ultras, which admittedly are extremely potent but can be dealt with by using rax walls or planetary fortresses in key positions. This also gives you the option to harass since there are no mutas to prevent you easily and you also shut down muta harass.
Once your third base is secured, the goal is to get a lot of production buildings so you can match his production rate and tech switching. Once you reach this state it becomes relatively even.
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At least 4 factories. 2 w/ tech labs making thors or siege tanks, and at least 2 others pumping BLUE FLAME HELLLLLLLLUIONSS.
make starport! make vikings and medivac.
use vikings kill overlords, use medivac for thor / hellion drops.
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On September 01 2010 21:40 Mearis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:36 Chriamon wrote:On September 01 2010 21:17 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 20:40 TheDrill wrote:(I've long since edited the OP to show you how skillful I am, not that it matters much if you actually watch the replays or anything.) On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless. Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it. Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units. If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more. That's great, except that taking a third as a terran would do nothing except delay your push until zerg has ultras. I guess that's okay though if you're shooting for BCs or mass ravens or w/e, but I'm really looking for a ground army that is at least a little bit cost effective against zerg. I've never actually tried constant 2fac thors as support units though, I've only failed 1fac, maybe that's like the terran's version of 2 stargate phoenix. I'll have to try that out today. Honestly, thors are cost effective against mutas, upgraded thors are VERY cost effective against mutas, and micro'd thors are complete rape against mutas, since by moving the thor you force the mutas to clump up to shoot unless he respreads them out. In terms of mineral/unit, gas/unit, supply/unit, build-time/unit thors are strictly superior to s-key muta, they are just not a complete and utter crushing counter the way say, blue flame hellions are against zergling or tanks are against hydra. Yea, I don't know why this guy is so resistant to your suggestions, upgraded thors are extremely effective vs muta, even with magic box thors are scary. Not to mention thors do well against ling/bling as well. Thors do amazing versus bling (why oh why would anyone use them against thors is beyond me) but they do terrible versus zerglings. If someone sends out a bunch of thors without hellion cover, a few hatcheries worth of zerglings will mop them up.
Not only thors suck against zerglings but they cost a lot of gas that you need for tanks, that would be ok if they could also work against broodlords but they suck even more against them. Thors require a lot of time to build up, enough time for zerg to get 5-6 BLs and completely rape you. Not to mention that having a lot of thors is very unwieldy.
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that 2 fast thors build seems to work pretty good
even if idra discovered that 20 muta can kill 5 thors it´s still 2k gas 2k minerals agains 1.5k minerals and 1k gas, the real prob keeps being banelling =x
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On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective.
Keep in mind:
- Armor upgrades further tilt the fight in your favour, if you use thors against s-key mutas.
- If you move your thor slightly, the mutas will reclump up to acquire him - you just need the mutas to stay in a clump for 3 seconds to get completely shredded.
Basically, before people 'figured out' s-key muta, you could be completely immune to an arbitrary amount of mutalisks using 3 or so thors completely un-microd. Now, your thors still beat mutalisks, but you either have to spend a similar amount of money as him, or you have to micro very very slightly by spreading your thors out and moving it out of the massive 3 range of the mutalisk.
Mech is still incredibly strong versus zerg, you just need to tailor your unit composition to his, you cannot go with an arbitrary ratio of tanks/hellions/thors and automatically be safe against whatever he throws at you. If he goes heavy hydra (lolol) make more tanks and hellions. If he goes for lots of lings/mutas, make more hellions/thors. If he goes heavy roaches, make more tanks and thors.
Not to burst your bubble, but hitting 'S' will result in the mutas clustering towards whatever targets they decide to attack...
Now if you use 'H' they will stay completely spread. Which is most cost effective, I do not know. But going mass thors is NOT the answer. Then a load of speedlings will come, and make your day miserable.
I am 600+ diamond Zerg btw.
What I lose to is usually timing pushes in the early game, is hard to scout it in some positions (when ovies are not that quick to get there), and so gets punished by being to heavy macro.
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Abusing the zerg early game is incredibly helpful for any terran. You can go into the mid game (macro stage, if you choose that build) ahead and it's much more comfortable to play.
Actually having a macro game vs zerg is in my opinion actually very balanced, and mech is balanced, if your mech is getting destroyed by mutas you can just add marines or just keep making thors, if they get that far ahead to beat you 'cost for cost', you didn't stop enough expos or kill enough drones., it's the early game that people complain about, and rightfully so. You can put yourself in such an advantageous position, and leading to a macro game in that way may get you accustomed to transitioning and everything.
5 Rax reaper is the new cult favourite, but builds like dual bunker below the ramp, fast hellion harass, etc really put off a zerg and delay him, and this creates an easy 2 base vs 2 base position. Keep poking around with the army you have, use scans instead of mules more if you are scared, and keep an eye out for every option. Vsing a zerg that has had no real harass done to them or pressure is very hard, but if you can start using what your race has in it's favor it can really help. It may not be learning pure macro like in brood war, but it wins.
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This thread was just mindblowing for me, I was sure it was a Z talking about how they can't beat a Terran player...
Just work on the basic things, 10 supply, 12 barracks, 13 refinery, 15 orbital. Do whatever build you like and apply a little bit of early pressure. Zerg's early game is so terrible it's laughable, so you can really do some damage and they won't be able to do anything for the rest of the game really because their economy is in shambles.
Lets see what units terran has that are good against zergs units:
Lings - Hellions, tanks
Banelings - Hellions, tanks
Mutas - Marines, thors, ghosts.
Roaches - Thors, marauders, tanks.
Hydras - Marauders, thors, tanks
So basically....
You can use any combination of hellions tanks marines marauders and ghosts as long as you have AA. And you will most likely win every battle unless you're caught out of position or unless you turtle for 10 minutes and let the zerg take the entire map.
General opening build order(Not going to give food counts, food counts are irrelevant.)
techlab on first rax
factory asap (With or without reactor, your choice)
barracks
techlab
start making marauders and hellions
ghost academy.
Extra barracks to pump just marines thrown in here somewhere.
Don't make ghosts until you move out and are at the zergs base.
Basically move your helllions to not be hit by the spinecrawlers and kill the lings, and use your marauders to kill the spines and roaches. you can even just take 8 marauders and stim and focus fire the hatchery and it'll go down easily. then, you can go back to base and start pumping marines and ghosts. when the mutas come, snipe the mutas and its basically GG right there.
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I think it is funny how the muta/thor thing has come full circle. First us zerg players were complaining about how thors killed our clumped mutas, nnow terran players are complaining our mutas are killing their thors XD.
As far as ling/bling/muta goes, use more blue flame hellions. Zerg has no good answer to micro'd hellions but mutas, which have a hard time chasing them with thors/marines covering them.
And I mean a lot of hellions. One fac with a reactor pumping them until your push works well.
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Zerg 600 Diamond (so quite bad).
Watched the replays and got some things to point out.
First off I believe you expand to soon.
I get that you want to play a macro game, but you should be more agressive in the early game. (i.e. a hellion/bio push following the reaper harass). This is because this is a critical timing for zerg players, where he can really fire up his eco, and you should not let him do that, or if he does, you should punish him for it.
Units you must start using in your build:
Hellions, preferably with infernal pre-igniter. They simply are a must to handle the ling/baneling balls.
Ghosts, need the emp against the infestors, this is quite important! (I saw you using them later on, for sniping mutas, which also is a good thing, but what hurt you the most through out most of the matchs was fungal growth).
Raven!!, they really hurt the muta dps with the pdd, also seeker missile, is amazing to get the mutas to back off (or take some serious damage).
And you also just needs a general more variaty of units in your army. You seem to generally go bio, until it fails and you lose everything, and then go mostly mech, until that gets overwhelmed, and then you just start losing.
Try to get a more mixed army, and get support units.
Also, if you scout an infestation pit/infestor, dont frigging move out with a bioball without 5+ medievacs! See enemy -> Stim -> FG all over, and they back of -> :'( for T.
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[QUOTE]On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more.[/QUOTE]
That's also a myth that needs debunking. 3 missile turrets does not make you immune to harass by "mass mutas." Sure 3 turrets will stave off 8 mutas. But 24? Not a chance.
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Another important point about thor is that speedlingbaneling will force the marines to abandon the thors in combat. Bio will have to stim up and back up, leaving the thors open to be picked off by the muta.
I think in general ghostless builds will prove to be not solid against Z. Infestor, baneling will destroy you too hard without EMP. Snipe helps vs muta harass/contain and against baneling.
I can't think of a situation other than 1base allins that you would prefer thor to ghost.
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You cant beat a zerg in a macro game, you can turtle like mad on some maps but generaly you want to crush zerg's economy early game with 1/100 possible terran builds and then end the game with 1 big midgame push when hes going to hive or just reached it. Creep autobahns and larva injection give the zerg a huge huge huge advantage if his economy isnt royaly screwed early game.
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On September 02 2010 00:21 blagoonga123 wrote:
That's also a myth that needs debunking. 3 missile turrets does not make you immune to harass by "mass mutas." Sure 3 turrets will stave off 8 mutas. But 24? Not a chance.
What are you trying to say here? 300 minerals of static D doesn't ward of 2400 minerals and 2400 gas of units? I could never have guessed!
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One way I have found that works rather well is use the 5 rax reaper opening and start the pressure early on. (like when your second reaper pops out) Then just keep adding reapers to your harrassment force. Don't over commit or you will get surrounded and torn apart, allowing him time to tech up to mutas. Your goal is to force him to commit to roaches and spine crawlers. If you keep enough constant pressure with your reapers and macro at the same time you will be able to tech to banshees and once you have enough of those he will have spend so much resources on fending off your reapers that he will have zero anti air and then its gg.
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On September 01 2010 13:01 TheDrill wrote:
I try to open with 11barrack 2 reaper expand and just don't know what unit combination to transition to. Early aggression with barracks units before the lair is up doesn't do too much.
I think that this is the problem. I've watched the Steppes of War replay and I've seen that all that your three reapers accomplish directly is killing six zerglings (they also force roaches and a spine crawler, but that's not direct economic damage). In order to get the barracks at 11, however, you supply-cap yourself until the depot comes out. This makes you lag behind in SCV production for a while. Now... let me state that I'm just a 750 diamond and I only main zerg (so this assessment could be wrong due to my lack of familiarity with Terran), but common sense says that if the opening is deleterious to your economy, you have to deal some serious damage in order to even mantain parity.
So... your build currently has three problems:
1) you start behind on worker count
2) you necessarily expand later than Z does (obviously, this is racial difference and not skill)
3) you do not pressure Z right after you expand, so your opponent can abuse the larva mechanic to quickly saturate his natural with impunity.
You obviously want to fix at least one of these things if you want to employ a macro-oriented style. Since you can't alter 2) (I presume), a good idea could be altering the very early game part. For instance, you could delay the barracks a little bit to get a depot up first and to allow you to get gas a little later. This means coming later with your reapers - which might or might not be a problem, depending on the timing windows that you can exploit (for instance, reaching his natural right as he's droning it up is going to be more crippling to his economy than reaching it when it has no workers, but it could also mean speedlings or roaches to defend). With more minerals, you're likely to be able to afford some sort of harassment later on, as you build up your natural (for instance, hellion harass) - which should also fix 3) to some extent.
Now I'll check the other two replays and see if anything else comes to mind.
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On September 02 2010 00:47 TLOBrian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 00:21 blagoonga123 wrote:
That's also a myth that needs debunking. 3 missile turrets does not make you immune to harass by "mass mutas." Sure 3 turrets will stave off 8 mutas. But 24? Not a chance. What are you trying to say here? 300 minerals of static D doesn't ward of 2400 minerals and 2400 gas of units? I could never have guessed!
I guess you're directing your sarcasm to the guy I quoted, because that's exactly what i was trying to explain to him.
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On the Metalopolis replay:
- the initial reaper harass (or rather, bunker rush) goes much better. It forced a ton of zerglings early on, which really hurt drone production, and also halted mining at the expansion. Had you not lost the second reaper (mistakes happen, mind - it's just that it's not impossible to avoid them and win), you would have probably won the game there.
- the quick bio push at the 11 minutes mark is good. You lose a little more in terms of resources, but destroying his natural hatchery more than makes up for the 200 or so extra minerals (in terms of additional mining capability). After it you have a clear, even if not overwhelming, advantage.
- you really botched the biomech push at 16 minutes. Let me list why. First off, you have not scouted for four minutes, which is more than enough time to set up air for somebody at lair tech. I could understand this were you in need to save MULEs, but you had something like 1300 minerals floating at the start of the attack (notice: I often have minerals floating as well. Gas too. I understand it happening - just, again, you could avoid this and win). Anyhow, you have not scouted and as a result you have 14 marines, 20 marauders, 3 tanks and 1 medivac (you sent two, but left one behind). This is a glaring weakness in your unit composition. Actually, considering that the only armored units he had were 4 roaches, 2 infestors and 2 spine crawlers (and the crawlers were rightly handled by tanks), 20 marauders and 14 marines is a questionable composition even without air in the mix. Anyhow, this is a 3950/975 army, already wounded, engaging a 3625/2500 army on creep. The "on creep" part is important, because your opponent has full vision and - correctly - attacks right as you are moving your siege tanks. Sure, you have +1 infantry weapons and he has 0 upgrades, but that one of the only two things you have going for you (the other is that he forgot a lot of mutas and a few lings in the back).
To recap: bad scouting, bad unit composition, inferior map awareness, bad tank micro (all three were unsieged at the same time), wounded troops. It's a miracle that you were able to snipe off that hatchery.
The ironic thing is... despite all of these botch-ups, you're still even for resources lost and you're actually ahead in number of bases, after this exchange. However, instead of taking your reinforcements and heading home, you siege down your two siege tanks and a marauder... after seeing mutalisks, with no anti-air on the spot and only 7 marines + 1 medivac coming one by one in an easily snipable line (and your abandoned medivac still at the gold expansion, sitting idle). Two additional siege tanks are also coming and you don't pull them back. Here, you're saying to your opponent, "Here, have this 1250/725 advantage for free. My treat, just sweep in with those mutalisks".
- your first desperation push. You're attacking with two thors, 20 marines, 6 marauders and 2 medivacs. That's 600/400+1000+600/150+200/200=2400/1350 (or 2550/1425 if you want to count in the lone viking that comes late to the party) against a 16 mutas (one wounded), 68 zerglings and 2 infestors (technically 4, but two of them don't have enough energy for Fungal Growth). The zerg army is 1600/1600+1700+200/300=3500/1900. On creep, again. Were you expecting to win that one?
- your second desperation push (24 minutes mark). You're attacking with six thors and nine marines, the latter of which are caught out of position away from the thors. You walk the thors out in the open, where they can be easily surrounded by zerglings, but still within sight range of overlords perched at the cliff (and yes, Z do perch overlords at the cliff of their base), and you're - once again - critically outnumbered by the opponent. Needless to say, you could vastly improve this - but I get the impression that you were already throwing the game away.
Once you've worked on these basics, I suppose that you could refine your play a little. For instance... I would have really liked it if you had built your barracks in the area between your natural and your third as a thick wall, therefore lessening the need for a static army and allowing you to defend a little better. I would also have really liked to see some harassment past the early game - banshees, thor drops, blue-flame hellions, overlord hunting, stuff like that. Place yourself at the behind-the-vents area of the zerg's base at the end of the game. Neither player ever gained sight of it... what would have four blue-flame hellions done, if dropped in there and moved to his mineral line while you were doing a frontal attack?
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Russian Federation145 Posts
Thanks for the replies. I think I'm going to work on my reaper control in the beginning and maybe transition into viking raven later in the game. Yea drops, especially marauder or hellion drops are highly effective, but I haven't been really able to pull it off due to the mobility of the muta. I think that viking raven would provide the best possible air advantage so I can exploit my mobility that medics provide. That's the most reliable way I've had of securing wins in all matchups.
I really don't think that terran macro is impossible against zerg anymore and I find the matchup quite balanced with this macro play-style. At worst I can transition to mass raven off of three bases and zerg doesn't really have anything to deal with that with good control. (except elephant/hydra)
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I see what you mean! I'm the type of player who doesn't like to cheese and play 1 base. So from the start I've been trying to find solid fe builds vs any race. A lot of Zergs complain about the OP of early harassment from reapers, so when I would play a build like that, I feel like I'm abusing Terran.
So what I came up with was an fe build which transitions to biomech really well and from there on you can get good scans at critical timings to see what Z is doing (also scouting ofc) and when you see a heavy muta ling army, it's really important to add a lot of thors and marines to your army, mixed with hellions (with upgrade) to take care of lings. When Z resorts more to roaches, add more marauder and when Z resorts to muta ling baneling, get marine thor hellion again, but due to banelings Z can't make as much muta as in muta ling army (gas cost), so instead of making a lot of thors, just get a total of 4 thors with marines to take care of muta, hellions for the lings and add some tanks to take down the banelings. It might take a while to get the hang of this type of play though, since biomech can be really hard to play (you need the exact right amount of every unit for good army composition), but I think it's strong.
I hope this helped you out a bit
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On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless. Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it. Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units. If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more.
Terran expos are "immune to harass?". You've obviously never heard of nydus worms.
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Russian Federation145 Posts
On September 03 2010 00:34 Shaithis wrote:Terran expos are "immune to harass?". You've obviously never heard of nydus worms.
A PF can effortlessly stomp over up to 60 supply of zerg ground meat. When there are buildings thrown around it with a bunker and some turrets, maybe a siege tank... we're talking upwards of 80 supply here.
To make things even easier, the PF has highest targeting priority so if you bring your army to defend the PF, zerg will lose everything and you will lose nothing.
To kill a far zerg expo all you need is 4 marauders in a medic.
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On September 01 2010 16:27 zomgtossrush wrote:
Has to be the first serious TVZ help thread I have ever seen since retail.
But yeah I agree that the hole "s-key" mutas hype is so overplayed. As a random player I have faced both sides of the debate. And the s-keying mutas works wonders against just thors, and look great on paper(YABOT/ Unit Tester). But in reality thors are going to have either scvs or more likely, a ton of marines. Even worse, is stim and medivacs.
The whole s-key hype is like saying, "this offensive linemen weighs 260 lbs, this defensive linemen weighs 210 lbs. Therefor the running back will rush for 200 yards this game."
There are too many other factors in the game other that just straight DPS on DPS.
This is such a hype because Zergs are grasping for straws to fix problems that Blizzard has neglected. All "over hype" aside it really does make a huge difference and if you see mass muta Marines are way better as long as they are behind some Hellions and Tanks.
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I do like the ghost + mara + hellion + marine + medivac army in TvZ; very micro-intensive though - EMPing infestors before they FG is MANDATORY. Also, you really do have to FE so you can make enough units to counter what the zerg is doing in time for his push.
On September 03 2010 01:06 TheDrill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 00:34 Shaithis wrote:Terran expos are "immune to harass?". You've obviously never heard of nydus worms.
A PF can effortlessly stomp over up to 60 supply of zerg ground meat. When there are buildings thrown around it with a bunker and some turrets, maybe a siege tank... we're talking upwards of 80 supply here. To make things even easier, the PF has highest targeting priority so if you bring your army to defend the PF, zerg will lose everything and you will lose nothing. To kill a far zerg expo all you need is 4 marauders in a medic.
Both roaches and ultras are extremely efficient at taking down PFs. Hydras and lings obviously fail b/c they're light. A large flock of mutas works just fine if there's not a ridiculous number of turrets.
The reason I mentioned Nydus worms is b/c they basically allow your entire army to hit an expo and be able to retreat in time to face the Terran army if it tries to push your base. Watch Argos' games for some awesome nydus usage.
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I think that a major misconception is that your early pressure doesn't do anything. You may not take out a bunch of drones, a hatchery, structure, or whatever. . . but you're causing several problems behind the scenes. First, you're forcing zerg to make units and not drones. Second, you're making us divide our attention. The result can clearly be seen in, I believe, the MLG Idra vs Morrow game on blistering sands. There is also a day9 daily where he specifically points out how bad Idra's macro is because of all the harassment. Idra gets over 1k minerals, queens are having a ton of energy, his creep spread is far from optimal, and his base count is nowhere near normal for him.
As to the comment about not using drops because of mutas, most of the time my mutas are harassing you or doing recon. They are never just chilling in my base on the offchance you'll drop me. However, a good zerg will have as much sight over the map as possible, so they MAY send mutas over if they watch the mini-map like a hawk.
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On September 01 2010 21:36 Chriamon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:17 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 20:40 TheDrill wrote:(I've long since edited the OP to show you how skillful I am, not that it matters much if you actually watch the replays or anything.) On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless. Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it. Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units. If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more. That's great, except that taking a third as a terran would do nothing except delay your push until zerg has ultras. I guess that's okay though if you're shooting for BCs or mass ravens or w/e, but I'm really looking for a ground army that is at least a little bit cost effective against zerg. I've never actually tried constant 2fac thors as support units though, I've only failed 1fac, maybe that's like the terran's version of 2 stargate phoenix. I'll have to try that out today. Honestly, thors are cost effective against mutas, upgraded thors are VERY cost effective against mutas, and micro'd thors are complete rape against mutas, since by moving the thor you force the mutas to clump up to shoot unless he respreads them out. In terms of mineral/unit, gas/unit, supply/unit, build-time/unit thors are strictly superior to s-key muta, they are just not a complete and utter crushing counter the way say, blue flame hellions are against zergling or tanks are against hydra. Yea, I don't know why this guy is so resistant to your suggestions, upgraded thors are extremely effective vs muta, even with magic box thors are scary. Not to mention thors do well against ling/bling as well.
Thors do well versus lings? Wow. Newsflash to me.
Seriously, yes, thors are still the most cost efficient way to deal with mutas, but they aren't cost efficient enough to justify getting the amount you need since they deal no splash. Gas/minerals are better spent at marine/tank/medvac. Thors are horrible versus lings, and it's muta/ling/bling/infestor that's the problematic mix.
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try getting building armor and + range for your turrets to.building armor /w some repair really rapes muta
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On September 01 2010 21:46 trevf wrote:
At least 4 factories. 2 w/ tech labs making thors or siege tanks, and at least 2 others pumping BLUE FLAME HELLLLLLLLUIONSS.
make starport! make vikings and medivac.
use vikings kill overlords, use medivac for thor / hellion drops.
Oh you play on fastest maps too? Sooooo cool, I love making a ridiculous ammount of thors/hellion/vikings/medivacs off one base. /end sarcasm
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On September 01 2010 23:29 TLOBrian wrote:
This thread was just mindblowing for me, I was sure it was a Z talking about how they can't beat a Terran player...
I'm a low diamond player and my TvZ win rate in diamond is in the mid 30 percent range, while my other match ups have been better than 50/50. I'm glad to know I'm not the only terran who can't beat Zerg; but it's an especially frustrating match up since I know that it's one that more Zergs have trouble with. It feels like I'm doing something wrong, but I don't know what - even when I do superficially correct things like roast lings and drones with hellions.
Perhaps it's terran guilt sabotaging my play. Or more reasonably, Zerg has fewer players, so I have less experience in the match up.
I definitely need to experiment more with Ghost play against zerg though.
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thors are pretty kewl. im not as good as you though. but i like thors vs mutas. if u put stuff in the way they kill lings pretty bad. try like 20 scvs repairing. that usually works.
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Man, if you are losing in the macro game, you need to work on your macro! I play zerg so I cant really comment on the finer points of mule drops, but some things I noticed from your replay on steppes:
You're supply blocked at 11 food with an scv q'd. Fix your build order, you shouldnt be getting supply blocked this early.
You queue SCVs, this is generally a huge macro nono.
When you take your 3rd, you start producing SCVs again, even though you're practically mined out at your main/natural, and have 40 scvs fighting over 3 mineral patches. I know everyone says "never stop making scvs!!!" but in this situation, you can stop. You really had no prospect of taking a 4th by this point, so just transfer your SCVs.
You dont get any upgrades, this is huge in macro games.
Really, work on being supply blocked, work on not q'ing units, etc. As for non macro points, based on this match:
Your unit composition is awful and nonsensical. Your response to mass mutas is to build more siege tanks and a handful of marines. Marines dont counter mutas when you have a 1:1 ratio of marines:mutas. You barely had any AA at all and were basically just asking for it by making so many siege tanks. Build 2 siege tanks to deal with the blings and a shitload of thors/SCVs.
I understand the tanks being a response to banelings, but you just need a handful of siege tanks to really slow down blings.More importantly than having siege tanks, you need to have them sieged. At your big siege tank/marine attack around 20 minutes, you just like, attack A'd directly into his army with all of your tanks unsieged, and then they were all dead before they were even sieged up. 1 siege tank, actually sieged, would have done you 10x as much good as your 8+ siege tanks unsieged. Do you know how to leapfrog your tanks? I mean, on a map with a distance this short, there is no excuse to not leap frog. But you just like, walked into his wall of blings/lings tanks first. C'mon man, I know you're smarter than that.
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On September 03 2010 07:39 Jollyburner wrote:
thors are pretty kewl. im not as good as you though. but i like thors vs mutas. if u put stuff in the way they kill lings pretty bad. try like 20 scvs repairing. that usually works.
Woah.
@TL, man I am just mcLOVIN the lowered post quality standards.
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As a Zerg player who gets frustrated by Terran mech frequently I can tell you I usually have problems with a diverse Terran army mix that's a bit mech heavy. Marines + Hellions + Thors + Siege Tanks can be extremely annoying to deal with and you can beef up certain portions of that mix based on what your opponent is going.
Hellions with the pre igniter are extremely useful for a front line on your Tanks and Thors if they have a lot of Banelings/Zerglings. If they go mass Mutas get an extra Thor or two or throw Ghosts in the mix (a handful of Ghosts is suprisingly strong against Mutas if you use Snipe well). Siege tanks are obviously great against Roaches and if they get tunneling just pop out a Raven or 2.
I know this is a lot of units that are higher tier but you did say you were struggling with longer macro games which is where these units would be available to you. And again just to be clear, I'm not a Terran player, just putting out there some of the stuff that I've struggled with as Zerg playing against Terran. Hope this helps.
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Russian Federation145 Posts
On September 03 2010 14:30 chumpchous wrote:
Man, if you are losing in the macro game, you need to work on your macro! I play zerg so I cant really comment on the finer points of mule drops, but some things I noticed from your replay on steppes:
You're supply blocked at 11 food with an scv q'd. Fix your build order, you shouldnt be getting supply blocked this early.
You queue SCVs, this is generally a huge macro nono.
When you take your 3rd, you start producing SCVs again, even though you're practically mined out at your main/natural, and have 40 scvs fighting over 3 mineral patches. I know everyone says "never stop making scvs!!!" but in this situation, you can stop. You really had no prospect of taking a 4th by this point, so just transfer your SCVs.
You dont get any upgrades, this is huge in macro games.
Really, work on being supply blocked, work on not q'ing units, etc. As for non macro points, based on this match:
Your unit composition is awful and nonsensical. Your response to mass mutas is to build more siege tanks and a handful of marines. Marines dont counter mutas when you have a 1:1 ratio of marines:mutas. You barely had any AA at all and were basically just asking for it by making so many siege tanks. Build 2 siege tanks to deal with the blings and a shitload of thors/SCVs.
I understand the tanks being a response to banelings, but you just need a handful of siege tanks to really slow down blings.More importantly than having siege tanks, you need to have them sieged. At your big siege tank/marine attack around 20 minutes, you just like, attack A'd directly into his army with all of your tanks unsieged, and then they were all dead before they were even sieged up. 1 siege tank, actually sieged, would have done you 10x as much good as your 8+ siege tanks unsieged. Do you know how to leapfrog your tanks? I mean, on a map with a distance this short, there is no excuse to not leap frog. But you just like, walked into his wall of blings/lings tanks first. C'mon man, I know you're smarter than that.
In the steppes game it was late and I basically died to the muta harass. I gave up by the time I pushed out with the pathetic tankmarine army. That was more of an experiment how much an mm push before lair would accomplish. (would've done more if I macro'd better) I macro significantly better in the metalopolis game.
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I only had time to watch your first game, but you consistently threw your units away, that's why you lost.
I mean, in the push where you came with some marauders and tanks, after you cleared out his defense, you ran your 15 low health marauders and an out of energy medivac up to his natural to take it out. Congrats, you killed 350 minerals worth of hatchery, and you sacrificed 1600 minerals, and 475 gas to do so. I mean, he only had 2-3 drones mining from it anyways.
Then you left two tanks sieged up outside his base just by themselves, while guys slowly rallied over to his base.
If instead, you had just pulled back, let some new medivacs heal up your army, and then pushed again once it was healed and reinforced, you would have crushed him.
But instead, every push, you threw away all of your units just trying to get that little bit extra. The zerg player never even attacked you. He just let you throw your units into his defense over and over again.
First push, marines, marauders: You killed his workers, then stuck around and killed his hatchery. You left his spine crawlers up, and you focused down his hatch instead of his military. Before you committed yourself to killing the hatch in exchange for all of your units, you had killed 1425 worth of his units, and he had killed 500 worth of yours. Had you retreated when you had the opportunity, you would have been well ahead. Instead, you fully committed to the attack, and it ends up with you losing 1975, and him losing 2000. And he still has his spine crawlers up for the next push.
Next push, marauders, tanks, marines. 2250 lost for you to 2200 lost for him. You take out his force he pulls back, you are at 4625 lost he is at 5925 lost. Instead of retreating, you again fully commit your units to a suicide mission, and leave your tanks to die. In the end, you end up having lost 7125 resources to his 6575.
Next he goes in with mutas and takes out a completely defenseless planetary fortress. He deals the damage then retreats instead of sacrificing all of his mutas to try and kill some of your workers.
Your next push marines and thors, you're 9350, he's 7200 lost. By this point he's just made such an advantage that he can finish it.
If you kept some of those units, your subsequent pushes would have been stronger, and you would have won with lower losses, and you'd be in far better shape later.
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EPT
