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Russian Federation145 Posts
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On September 01 2010 13:07 Cedstick wrote:
1000 what? Silver?
why does it matter?
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On September 01 2010 13:07 Cedstick wrote:
1000 what? Silver?
yeah, great post cedstick. you really add a lot to the community.
OP have you tried more of a mix of MM and mech, as opposed to going all MMM or pure mech?
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Mech can still work if you add rines or vikings. If you add rines tho you gota have really good micro and try and sacrifice hellions for the blings. If you can get mech and viking tho your set agaisnt ling/bling/muta
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The only problem with TvZ are mass banelings that kill marines and the muta follow up that kills everything else. I've found medivac+thors and dropping the thors infront of the MM ball to be effective for low baneling numbers. Anything above 25 banelings requires hunter seeker missles to soften the banelings up.
As long as you find a way to keep the marines safe, then zerg can't really win with anything else unless they have a huge macro advantage.
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Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective.
Keep in mind:
- Armor upgrades further tilt the fight in your favour, if you use thors against s-key mutas.
- If you move your thor slightly, the mutas will reclump up to acquire him - you just need the mutas to stay in a clump for 3 seconds to get completely shredded.
Basically, before people 'figured out' s-key muta, you could be completely immune to an arbitrary amount of mutalisks using 3 or so thors completely un-microd. Now, your thors still beat mutalisks, but you either have to spend a similar amount of money as him, or you have to micro very very slightly by spreading your thors out and moving it out of the massive 3 range of the mutalisk.
Mech is still incredibly strong versus zerg, you just need to tailor your unit composition to his, you cannot go with an arbitrary ratio of tanks/hellions/thors and automatically be safe against whatever he throws at you. If he goes heavy hydra (lolol) make more tanks and hellions. If he goes for lots of lings/mutas, make more hellions/thors. If he goes heavy roaches, make more tanks and thors.
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On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective.
That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless.
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Has to be the first serious TVZ help thread I have ever seen since retail.
But yeah I agree that the hole "s-key" mutas hype is so overplayed. As a random player I have faced both sides of the debate. And the s-keying mutas works wonders against just thors, and look great on paper(YABOT/ Unit Tester). But in reality thors are going to have either scvs or more likely, a ton of marines. Even worse, is stim and medivacs.
The whole s-key hype is like saying, "this offensive linemen weighs 260 lbs, this defensive linemen weighs 210 lbs. Therefor the running back will rush for 200 yards this game."
There are too many other factors in the game other that just straight DPS on DPS.
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On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless.
Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it.
Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units.
If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more.
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Russian Federation145 Posts
(I've long since edited the OP to show you how skillful I am, not that it matters much if you actually watch the replays or anything.)
On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless. Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it. Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units. If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more.
That's great, except that taking a third as a terran would do nothing except delay your push until zerg has ultras. I guess that's okay though if you're shooting for BCs or mass ravens or w/e, but I'm really looking for a ground army that is at least a little bit cost effective against zerg.
I've never actually tried constant 2fac thors as support units though, I've only failed 1fac, maybe that's like the terran's version of 2 stargate phoenix. I'll have to try that out today.
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Yes subversion, I've tried a mix of MM and Mech, but that's not the optimal combination of units. Like I said, pure 3fac tanks with marines and medics to deal with the mutas is the only thing that seems to have any effect at stopping mutabling/mutainfestorling. The problem is that it doesn't work on far locations on large maps and is just generally going to be nerfed in the next patch.
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On September 01 2010 20:40 TheDrill wrote:(I've long since edited the OP to show you how skillful I am, not that it matters much if you actually watch the replays or anything.) Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless. Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it. Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units. If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more. That's great, except that taking a third as a terran would do nothing except delay your push until zerg has ultras. I guess that's okay though if you're shooting for BCs or mass ravens or w/e, but I'm really looking for a ground army that is at least a little bit cost effective against zerg. I've never actually tried constant 2fac thors as support units though, I've only failed 1fac, maybe that's like the terran's version of 2 stargate phoenix. I'll have to try that out today.
Honestly, thors are cost effective against mutas, upgraded thors are VERY cost effective against mutas, and micro'd thors are complete rape against mutas, since by moving the thor you force the mutas to clump up to shoot unless he respreads them out.
In terms of mineral/unit, gas/unit, supply/unit, build-time/unit thors are strictly superior to s-key muta, they are just not a complete and utter crushing counter the way say, blue flame hellions are against zergling or tanks are against hydra.
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On September 01 2010 21:17 Mearis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 20:40 TheDrill wrote:(I've long since edited the OP to show you how skillful I am, not that it matters much if you actually watch the replays or anything.) On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless. Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it. Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units. If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more. That's great, except that taking a third as a terran would do nothing except delay your push until zerg has ultras. I guess that's okay though if you're shooting for BCs or mass ravens or w/e, but I'm really looking for a ground army that is at least a little bit cost effective against zerg. I've never actually tried constant 2fac thors as support units though, I've only failed 1fac, maybe that's like the terran's version of 2 stargate phoenix. I'll have to try that out today. Honestly, thors are cost effective against mutas, upgraded thors are VERY cost effective against mutas, and micro'd thors are complete rape against mutas, since by moving the thor you force the mutas to clump up to shoot unless he respreads them out. In terms of mineral/unit, gas/unit, supply/unit, build-time/unit thors are strictly superior to s-key muta, they are just not a complete and utter crushing counter the way say, blue flame hellions are against zergling or tanks are against hydra.
Yea, I don't know why this guy is so resistant to your suggestions, upgraded thors are extremely effective vs muta, even with magic box thors are scary. Not to mention thors do well against ling/bling as well.
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On September 01 2010 21:36 Chriamon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:17 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 20:40 TheDrill wrote:(I've long since edited the OP to show you how skillful I am, not that it matters much if you actually watch the replays or anything.) On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless. Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it. Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units. If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more. That's great, except that taking a third as a terran would do nothing except delay your push until zerg has ultras. I guess that's okay though if you're shooting for BCs or mass ravens or w/e, but I'm really looking for a ground army that is at least a little bit cost effective against zerg. I've never actually tried constant 2fac thors as support units though, I've only failed 1fac, maybe that's like the terran's version of 2 stargate phoenix. I'll have to try that out today. Honestly, thors are cost effective against mutas, upgraded thors are VERY cost effective against mutas, and micro'd thors are complete rape against mutas, since by moving the thor you force the mutas to clump up to shoot unless he respreads them out. In terms of mineral/unit, gas/unit, supply/unit, build-time/unit thors are strictly superior to s-key muta, they are just not a complete and utter crushing counter the way say, blue flame hellions are against zergling or tanks are against hydra. Yea, I don't know why this guy is so resistant to your suggestions, upgraded thors are extremely effective vs muta, even with magic box thors are scary. Not to mention thors do well against ling/bling as well.
Thors do amazing versus bling (why oh why would anyone use them against thors is beyond me) but they do terrible versus zerglings. If someone sends out a bunch of thors without hellion cover, a few hatcheries worth of zerglings will mop them up.
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If you want to play macro against zerg you must be passive until you get your third base IMO. Then you just have to be very careful not to waste your army. Also it is crucial to get air control early by using vikings and ravens with hsm. While you build your viking/raven force you must turtle with tanks and bunkers/rax wall (at your nat). Once you get air control suddenly it becomes a lot easier, all you have to worry about are ultras, which admittedly are extremely potent but can be dealt with by using rax walls or planetary fortresses in key positions. This also gives you the option to harass since there are no mutas to prevent you easily and you also shut down muta harass.
Once your third base is secured, the goal is to get a lot of production buildings so you can match his production rate and tech switching. Once you reach this state it becomes relatively even.
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At least 4 factories. 2 w/ tech labs making thors or siege tanks, and at least 2 others pumping BLUE FLAME HELLLLLLLLUIONSS.
make starport! make vikings and medivac.
use vikings kill overlords, use medivac for thor / hellion drops.
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On September 01 2010 21:40 Mearis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:36 Chriamon wrote:On September 01 2010 21:17 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 20:40 TheDrill wrote:(I've long since edited the OP to show you how skillful I am, not that it matters much if you actually watch the replays or anything.) On September 01 2010 16:30 Mearis wrote:On September 01 2010 16:24 PanzerKing wrote:On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective. That's well and good, but it's essentially impossible to match Z cost-for-cost on thor vs. mutalisk, because of T's much weaker production capability. If you turtle until you've built up a hefty number of thors, Z will freely expand. So, really, the cost-for-cost argument is kind of pointless. Again, that's another myth that's been left unchallenged for so long, that nobody really bothers to argue with it. Terrans have a much easier time getting at third/fourth than a zerg, simply because a planetary fortress with a few missile turrets is completely safe from harass up until broodlords show up. Terrans usually don't NEED to get a third and a fourth, because they get a ~20% income bonus with mules compared to other races. Where zerg have a real edge is in SATURATING a third and fourth base, because they can instantly switch to a few production cycles of drones, at the cost of completely forsaking production of offensive units. If you are going to push out, and your opponent is going mass mutas, put down a few turrets in your base to make yourself completely immune to harass, then simply crank out thors from 2 factory - for a 6 supply unit, thors build incredibly fast. To outmuta two factories cranking out thors full time the zerg needs an incredible economic advantage - at least 2 bases ahead, probably more. That's great, except that taking a third as a terran would do nothing except delay your push until zerg has ultras. I guess that's okay though if you're shooting for BCs or mass ravens or w/e, but I'm really looking for a ground army that is at least a little bit cost effective against zerg. I've never actually tried constant 2fac thors as support units though, I've only failed 1fac, maybe that's like the terran's version of 2 stargate phoenix. I'll have to try that out today. Honestly, thors are cost effective against mutas, upgraded thors are VERY cost effective against mutas, and micro'd thors are complete rape against mutas, since by moving the thor you force the mutas to clump up to shoot unless he respreads them out. In terms of mineral/unit, gas/unit, supply/unit, build-time/unit thors are strictly superior to s-key muta, they are just not a complete and utter crushing counter the way say, blue flame hellions are against zergling or tanks are against hydra. Yea, I don't know why this guy is so resistant to your suggestions, upgraded thors are extremely effective vs muta, even with magic box thors are scary. Not to mention thors do well against ling/bling as well. Thors do amazing versus bling (why oh why would anyone use them against thors is beyond me) but they do terrible versus zerglings. If someone sends out a bunch of thors without hellion cover, a few hatcheries worth of zerglings will mop them up.
Not only thors suck against zerglings but they cost a lot of gas that you need for tanks, that would be ok if they could also work against broodlords but they suck even more against them. Thors require a lot of time to build up, enough time for zerg to get 5-6 BLs and completely rape you. Not to mention that having a lot of thors is very unwieldy.
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that 2 fast thors build seems to work pretty good
even if idra discovered that 20 muta can kill 5 thors it´s still 2k gas 2k minerals agains 1.5k minerals and 1k gas, the real prob keeps being banelling =x
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On September 01 2010 16:17 Mearis wrote:
Ok, there is this persistent myth that s-key mutas are 'godly' versus thors. S-key mutas LOSE money for money against thors, they simply don't get hard-countered, they get soft-countered. If you match the money he is spending in mutas in thors, you will crush him. Mutas 'counter' thors in the way that marines 'counter' roaches - in large numbers, if you spent more money, your marines will beat his roaches, otherwise, roaches are more cost effective.
Keep in mind:
- Armor upgrades further tilt the fight in your favour, if you use thors against s-key mutas.
- If you move your thor slightly, the mutas will reclump up to acquire him - you just need the mutas to stay in a clump for 3 seconds to get completely shredded.
Basically, before people 'figured out' s-key muta, you could be completely immune to an arbitrary amount of mutalisks using 3 or so thors completely un-microd. Now, your thors still beat mutalisks, but you either have to spend a similar amount of money as him, or you have to micro very very slightly by spreading your thors out and moving it out of the massive 3 range of the mutalisk.
Mech is still incredibly strong versus zerg, you just need to tailor your unit composition to his, you cannot go with an arbitrary ratio of tanks/hellions/thors and automatically be safe against whatever he throws at you. If he goes heavy hydra (lolol) make more tanks and hellions. If he goes for lots of lings/mutas, make more hellions/thors. If he goes heavy roaches, make more tanks and thors.
Not to burst your bubble, but hitting 'S' will result in the mutas clustering towards whatever targets they decide to attack...
Now if you use 'H' they will stay completely spread. Which is most cost effective, I do not know. But going mass thors is NOT the answer. Then a load of speedlings will come, and make your day miserable.
I am 600+ diamond Zerg btw.
What I lose to is usually timing pushes in the early game, is hard to scout it in some positions (when ovies are not that quick to get there), and so gets punished by being to heavy macro.
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Abusing the zerg early game is incredibly helpful for any terran. You can go into the mid game (macro stage, if you choose that build) ahead and it's much more comfortable to play.
Actually having a macro game vs zerg is in my opinion actually very balanced, and mech is balanced, if your mech is getting destroyed by mutas you can just add marines or just keep making thors, if they get that far ahead to beat you 'cost for cost', you didn't stop enough expos or kill enough drones., it's the early game that people complain about, and rightfully so. You can put yourself in such an advantageous position, and leading to a macro game in that way may get you accustomed to transitioning and everything.
5 Rax reaper is the new cult favourite, but builds like dual bunker below the ramp, fast hellion harass, etc really put off a zerg and delay him, and this creates an easy 2 base vs 2 base position. Keep poking around with the army you have, use scans instead of mules more if you are scared, and keep an eye out for every option. Vsing a zerg that has had no real harass done to them or pressure is very hard, but if you can start using what your race has in it's favor it can really help. It may not be learning pure macro like in brood war, but it wins.
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EPT
