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On September 01 2010 21:46 trevf wrote:
At least 4 factories. 2 w/ tech labs making thors or siege tanks, and at least 2 others pumping BLUE FLAME HELLLLLLLLUIONSS.
make starport! make vikings and medivac.
use vikings kill overlords, use medivac for thor / hellion drops.
Oh you play on fastest maps too? Sooooo cool, I love making a ridiculous ammount of thors/hellion/vikings/medivacs off one base. /end sarcasm
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On September 01 2010 23:29 TLOBrian wrote:
This thread was just mindblowing for me, I was sure it was a Z talking about how they can't beat a Terran player...
I'm a low diamond player and my TvZ win rate in diamond is in the mid 30 percent range, while my other match ups have been better than 50/50. I'm glad to know I'm not the only terran who can't beat Zerg; but it's an especially frustrating match up since I know that it's one that more Zergs have trouble with. It feels like I'm doing something wrong, but I don't know what - even when I do superficially correct things like roast lings and drones with hellions.
Perhaps it's terran guilt sabotaging my play.  Or more reasonably, Zerg has fewer players, so I have less experience in the match up.
I definitely need to experiment more with Ghost play against zerg though.
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thors are pretty kewl. im not as good as you though. but i like thors vs mutas. if u put stuff in the way they kill lings pretty bad. try like 20 scvs repairing. that usually works.
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Man, if you are losing in the macro game, you need to work on your macro! I play zerg so I cant really comment on the finer points of mule drops, but some things I noticed from your replay on steppes:
You're supply blocked at 11 food with an scv q'd. Fix your build order, you shouldnt be getting supply blocked this early.
You queue SCVs, this is generally a huge macro nono.
When you take your 3rd, you start producing SCVs again, even though you're practically mined out at your main/natural, and have 40 scvs fighting over 3 mineral patches. I know everyone says "never stop making scvs!!!" but in this situation, you can stop. You really had no prospect of taking a 4th by this point, so just transfer your SCVs.
You dont get any upgrades, this is huge in macro games.
Really, work on being supply blocked, work on not q'ing units, etc. As for non macro points, based on this match:
Your unit composition is awful and nonsensical. Your response to mass mutas is to build more siege tanks and a handful of marines. Marines dont counter mutas when you have a 1:1 ratio of marines:mutas. You barely had any AA at all and were basically just asking for it by making so many siege tanks. Build 2 siege tanks to deal with the blings and a shitload of thors/SCVs.
I understand the tanks being a response to banelings, but you just need a handful of siege tanks to really slow down blings.More importantly than having siege tanks, you need to have them sieged. At your big siege tank/marine attack around 20 minutes, you just like, attack A'd directly into his army with all of your tanks unsieged, and then they were all dead before they were even sieged up. 1 siege tank, actually sieged, would have done you 10x as much good as your 8+ siege tanks unsieged. Do you know how to leapfrog your tanks? I mean, on a map with a distance this short, there is no excuse to not leap frog. But you just like, walked into his wall of blings/lings tanks first. C'mon man, I know you're smarter than that.
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On September 03 2010 07:39 Jollyburner wrote:
thors are pretty kewl. im not as good as you though. but i like thors vs mutas. if u put stuff in the way they kill lings pretty bad. try like 20 scvs repairing. that usually works.
Woah.
@TL, man I am just mcLOVIN the lowered post quality standards.
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As a Zerg player who gets frustrated by Terran mech frequently I can tell you I usually have problems with a diverse Terran army mix that's a bit mech heavy. Marines + Hellions + Thors + Siege Tanks can be extremely annoying to deal with and you can beef up certain portions of that mix based on what your opponent is going.
Hellions with the pre igniter are extremely useful for a front line on your Tanks and Thors if they have a lot of Banelings/Zerglings. If they go mass Mutas get an extra Thor or two or throw Ghosts in the mix (a handful of Ghosts is suprisingly strong against Mutas if you use Snipe well). Siege tanks are obviously great against Roaches and if they get tunneling just pop out a Raven or 2.
I know this is a lot of units that are higher tier but you did say you were struggling with longer macro games which is where these units would be available to you. And again just to be clear, I'm not a Terran player, just putting out there some of the stuff that I've struggled with as Zerg playing against Terran. Hope this helps.
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Russian Federation145 Posts
On September 03 2010 14:30 chumpchous wrote:
Man, if you are losing in the macro game, you need to work on your macro! I play zerg so I cant really comment on the finer points of mule drops, but some things I noticed from your replay on steppes:
You're supply blocked at 11 food with an scv q'd. Fix your build order, you shouldnt be getting supply blocked this early.
You queue SCVs, this is generally a huge macro nono.
When you take your 3rd, you start producing SCVs again, even though you're practically mined out at your main/natural, and have 40 scvs fighting over 3 mineral patches. I know everyone says "never stop making scvs!!!" but in this situation, you can stop. You really had no prospect of taking a 4th by this point, so just transfer your SCVs.
You dont get any upgrades, this is huge in macro games.
Really, work on being supply blocked, work on not q'ing units, etc. As for non macro points, based on this match:
Your unit composition is awful and nonsensical. Your response to mass mutas is to build more siege tanks and a handful of marines. Marines dont counter mutas when you have a 1:1 ratio of marines:mutas. You barely had any AA at all and were basically just asking for it by making so many siege tanks. Build 2 siege tanks to deal with the blings and a shitload of thors/SCVs.
I understand the tanks being a response to banelings, but you just need a handful of siege tanks to really slow down blings.More importantly than having siege tanks, you need to have them sieged. At your big siege tank/marine attack around 20 minutes, you just like, attack A'd directly into his army with all of your tanks unsieged, and then they were all dead before they were even sieged up. 1 siege tank, actually sieged, would have done you 10x as much good as your 8+ siege tanks unsieged. Do you know how to leapfrog your tanks? I mean, on a map with a distance this short, there is no excuse to not leap frog. But you just like, walked into his wall of blings/lings tanks first. C'mon man, I know you're smarter than that.
In the steppes game it was late and I basically died to the muta harass. I gave up by the time I pushed out with the pathetic tankmarine army. That was more of an experiment how much an mm push before lair would accomplish. (would've done more if I macro'd better) I macro significantly better in the metalopolis game.
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I only had time to watch your first game, but you consistently threw your units away, that's why you lost.
I mean, in the push where you came with some marauders and tanks, after you cleared out his defense, you ran your 15 low health marauders and an out of energy medivac up to his natural to take it out. Congrats, you killed 350 minerals worth of hatchery, and you sacrificed 1600 minerals, and 475 gas to do so. I mean, he only had 2-3 drones mining from it anyways.
Then you left two tanks sieged up outside his base just by themselves, while guys slowly rallied over to his base.
If instead, you had just pulled back, let some new medivacs heal up your army, and then pushed again once it was healed and reinforced, you would have crushed him.
But instead, every push, you threw away all of your units just trying to get that little bit extra. The zerg player never even attacked you. He just let you throw your units into his defense over and over again.
First push, marines, marauders: You killed his workers, then stuck around and killed his hatchery. You left his spine crawlers up, and you focused down his hatch instead of his military. Before you committed yourself to killing the hatch in exchange for all of your units, you had killed 1425 worth of his units, and he had killed 500 worth of yours. Had you retreated when you had the opportunity, you would have been well ahead. Instead, you fully committed to the attack, and it ends up with you losing 1975, and him losing 2000. And he still has his spine crawlers up for the next push.
Next push, marauders, tanks, marines. 2250 lost for you to 2200 lost for him. You take out his force he pulls back, you are at 4625 lost he is at 5925 lost. Instead of retreating, you again fully commit your units to a suicide mission, and leave your tanks to die. In the end, you end up having lost 7125 resources to his 6575.
Next he goes in with mutas and takes out a completely defenseless planetary fortress. He deals the damage then retreats instead of sacrificing all of his mutas to try and kill some of your workers.
Your next push marines and thors, you're 9350, he's 7200 lost. By this point he's just made such an advantage that he can finish it.
If you kept some of those units, your subsequent pushes would have been stronger, and you would have won with lower losses, and you'd be in far better shape later.
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EPT
