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I've used something similiar last week, with a goal of 3warpgates -> FF contain on the opponent and a quick nexus thanks to sentries. As a follow-up, though, I preferred to go for 2cannons @ nat while getting stargate for void rays, but, perhaps, just a robo would've been better.
Reasons why I opted for void rays was thinking that they'd need colossi to break out of FF, early cannons cover DT possibility and help against the enemy colossi push until they get range, and that's when I have 2 void rays and more coming.
With a robo of your own it just feels that even though you can get obs in case of DTs, your colossi range will be later than your opponent's. I found it very hard to win with rangeless colossi against ranged colossi, unless my army is much bigger. And it isn't.
If they made one immortal and an obs, or two immortals before colossi, I'd normally be able to containt them long enough; otherwise the attack came too early.
I couldn't contain any good 4-gating protoss at all, because they don't sit at their ramp, moving out before warpgate is done. Perhaps with a really early sentry(before warpgate finishes), I could FF them, but they still get an option of warping stuff outside using either a proxy pylon or pylon from main's edge.
Moreover, a lot of all-inish 1base protoss cut probes at like 20 for their 4gate push. It's faster gates, chrono on warpgate, and I have to abandon all thoughts of FE against those, holding for my dear life on my ramp. It's still really hard to defend against these - at least, it was for me. I stayed on 1gas in order to grab a faster nexus, so that could be a drawback. Perhaps if I naturally taken 2gases, I'd still be able to save minerals by making more sentries, and adapt to all-inish 4gate easier, forgoing the expansion(no need for it with 10 more probes).
No one did blink stalkers against me, but I suppose it would destroy me  . I wonder if a really fast robo after nexus -> immortals would be enough to hold. I also wonder if you would be able to retreat your contain from blinking stalkers - perhaps throwing a lot of FFs behind you to win time?
Phoenix should be able to stay at least even, first forcing you to come back home to defend (you'd still lose some probes), then taking an expansion, though later, but with a highly mobile harrass unit that also removes an option of colossus or immortal from you. Phoenixes overall feel really strong so long as they didn't get 4gated with a probe cut.
Void rays. No one did it against me but I presume you'd have to pull back, warp-in stalkers and turtle a bit. If the first void ray can show up in your base when you lack minerals for stalker, it'd be strong, otherwise - no. This'd have to be tested.
Overall my impression after using the build for some days was that regular colossi expansion, or phoenix openings were safer - but it could be that I just lucked timings/adaptations.
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very interesting ideas and an interesting build. i also tried to fast expand a couple times and i also watched the nazgul days with perma FFing the opponents ramp. my experience is, that u can not hold a delayed colossi build, because they destroy FF and outrange everything. esp. after the sentry nerf and colossi destroying FF, there is no way to have enough dps in your army against it. note that the opponent must not attack in any case before range and 2 colossi are finished. but since i would open with 3 gates and add a robo AFTERwards (like naniwa does), you can easily do a robo push when you expand too early (like on 2 gates) and wait for colossi if you expand late (like on 3 gates and building many lots and sentrys).
i play at 600 diamond EU, but i got the funny experience to gain 8 points from 800 rating guys and loose 16 against 600. i ladder at night on my stream, so tune in and do 2 customs if you get me there.
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The Idea itself is pretty good and will work pretty decent vs every build expect for 1-2 gate robo into fast colossi. With sentry/zealot you won´t have any kind of chance for taking the colos down.
But almost every build has his counters and i think this is it for an early expand. Because the colossi make such a big difference and you they 2shot the sentrys and burn the zealotline really really quick.
But it´s always good to try something so keep it going.
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In your standard pvp builds you left out the 2 gate zealot early pressure which I see much more than dts or phoenixes but I digress and your build could be modified to handle it.
Like a lot of people have been saying, a competent 3 gate colossus should beat the early expand into delayed colossus simply because colossus with the lance upgrade are very effective against both zealots and sentries. The first guy you played that went 3 gate robo wasn't very good, he had the colossus out late and engaged twice without the lance upgrade. An aggressive four gate might break you too, it just comes down to micro as they would have more units than you and you would have to cover your expansion.
It has potential but I don't think it's something that I'd be comfortable doing at mid diamond. I'd need to see how it performs more first.
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With bigger rush distances in maps fast expanding in PvP should be better since you'd have time to get an extra round of units out before the push hits, but proxy pylons prevent this from working.
I don't know. Maybe eventually somebody will figure out a way to safely fast expand in PvP, but I won't trust it until I see a pro use it with success.
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Trust me I would love for this to work. But a well timed 1 base colossus push would stomp this. There is a timing when he will have 2 colossus with range and a decent army and you dno't have colossus yet. At that time he can just kill your expo. Force fields does not work vs an army with colossus as they can just walk over them to remove them.
I tried for about 200 games on release to get a stable 2 base build for PvP and a variant of this was done a lot of times but it just gets rolled by a player with good 1 base colossus timings. Sure it might work against 4 gate wsince the robo is then late but against a 3 gate or 2 gate robo player it won't be in time.
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Very nice post, will definitly try some of this out when i get home.
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Back in beta I actually experimented with this a lot. It was sort of a natural transition behind the logic of "Well, I'm 4gating, but I guess its feeling too all-in so maybe I'll just sit here and contain,". Eventually I just started to cut a gateway and expand.
I really liked the feeling of this. Before I was worried to push up a ramp due to FF, but now I was using my opponent's ramp against them. Even better, I could keep an advantage with a smaller sized army. I actually tried this out vs T as well and it became my standard for a while in PvT, PvP.
But like above posters have stated, this can get you a quick and upsetting loss. Basically you're forcing your opponent to 1base, which is essentially the "issue" with current protoss (and terran) strategy. There are a few responses for your opponent; mainly blink stalkers, colossi, or proxy pylon/warp prism. All are more or less difficult to deal with because they generally come at the time before you have the unit advantage from your 2nd. Also, your army is likely split at this point as well.
So what can we do? I think the most success I've had with this is actually delaying my expansion, getting a robo for an observer and doing some good damage with the contain. If your opponent walls in, you can snipe a gateway/pylon. An active observer can give you an idea of how your opponent plans to break the contain, and how to deal with it. Reinforcements begin to turn this "fake map control" of a few gateway units/force fields, into actual map control.
This has worked with varying degrees of success for me. Sometimes a bad force field or my split armies along with the unrealized investment of an expansion will just be the end of the game.
Things I'm excited to try: Along with the spirit of the OP, I want to try to see if the contain will work earlier. If you're going up against 4gate, you basically need to be at their base before they get to yours. This doesn't leave you a lot of time, especially on the bigger maps...but perhaps there is a window where you can begin your containment, even before warpgate tech has finished. This way you are realizing the benefits of a FE in time to deal with the response. Maybe just purely sentries and a cannon at the bottom of their ramp? Who knows, get out there and test :D
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Not that i'm an expert or anything (not even protoss, lol) but there's two things i'd like to point out regarding that build.
1. There's a patch about to come out that's going to (somewhat) nerf the zealots, which will reduce the number of em that you can muster. That's probably going to weaken this strat against anything that doesnt really use zealots (otherwise it cuts both ways) AND requires you to have them (phoenixes and DTs don't, really, or so the OP states). Collossi i guess are going to be the worst of it, but i bet theres a way to tweak the strat around it.
2. This one might be obvious for alla you protoss players, but it JUST hit poor terran me. Chrono boosting reduces build time by half, or in other words doubles the production rate. But getting a second nexus will have the same effect on your probe production. Basically what i mean is that once you get your second nexus up, and you keep constant production of probes at both, you'll either be
A) staying on par with him because he's spending all his chrono boosts on probes
B) getting ahead because (and thats likely from the few PvP i've seen) he spends chrono boosts on other shtuff
C) you're getting way ahead because you're spending *some* chrono boosts on probes.
Basically, you have twice the chrono boosts he has, and you don't really need to spend them on probes (and still get a higher econ than him). That's a definite advantage, though i bet at first you'd need to spend it on probes. It's all fine and dandy to be able to chrono boost all the warpgates almost all the time, but you need to have the money to support it. But that'll come fast enough, what with a FE and everything. And then those chrono boosts probably help to get the stuff you need to survive.
And then the opponent eventually has to slow down production to expand, and that's when you roll over him. At least that's how i think this strat's supposed to work, right?
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Hmm what about 3 gate colossus+thermal lance with push at around 76 pop with 2 colossus, more coming? Sounds like it would catch this build off guard. Sentries would be useless as the colossus could micro around the cliffs (at least on most maps) and break your force fields if absolutely necessary. Besides, you won't be able to get colossus out in time if you do this, so you would slowly die regardless of how much gateway units you have off your 3 then 4 gates.
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On September 01 2010 00:52 EtherealDeath wrote:
Hmm what about 3 gate colossus+thermal lance with push at around 76 pop with 2 colossus, more coming? Sounds like it would catch this build off guard. Sentries would be useless as the colossus could micro around the cliffs (at least on most maps) and break your force fields if absolutely necessary. Besides, you won't be able to get colossus out in time if you do this, so you would slowly die regardless of how much gateway units you have off your 3 then 4 gates.
Yea, it's a straight out Build order loss if this is attempted against a 1 base colossus. Don't think any amount of tweaking is going to change that specific issue.
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On September 01 2010 01:10 tetramaster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 00:52 EtherealDeath wrote:
Hmm what about 3 gate colossus+thermal lance with push at around 76 pop with 2 colossus, more coming? Sounds like it would catch this build off guard. Sentries would be useless as the colossus could micro around the cliffs (at least on most maps) and break your force fields if absolutely necessary. Besides, you won't be able to get colossus out in time if you do this, so you would slowly die regardless of how much gateway units you have off your 3 then 4 gates. Yea, it's a straight out Build order loss if this is attempted against a 1 base colossus. Don't think any amount of tweaking is going to change that specific issue.
Hard to scout a 3 base colossus if you don't get robo or stargate too, so you'd be going in blind.
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if you're building so many sentries with this build, maybe you should get hallucinate for additional meatshield when the 1base push comes for you. also I guess you can scout if you're getting suspicious and have a little extra energy
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On September 01 2010 00:45 Nidoa wrote:
Not that i'm an expert or anything (not even protoss, lol) but there's two things i'd like to point out regarding that build.
1. There's a patch about to come out that's going to (somewhat) nerf the zealots, which will reduce the number of em that you can muster. That's probably going to weaken this strat against anything that doesnt really use zealots (otherwise it cuts both ways) AND requires you to have them (phoenixes and DTs don't, really, or so the OP states). Collossi i guess are going to be the worst of it, but i bet theres a way to tweak the strat around it.
2. This one might be obvious for alla you protoss players, but it JUST hit poor terran me. Chrono boosting reduces build time by half, or in other words doubles the production rate. But getting a second nexus will have the same effect on your probe production. Basically what i mean is that once you get your second nexus up, and you keep constant production of probes at both, you'll either be
A) staying on par with him because he's spending all his chrono boosts on probes
B) getting ahead because (and thats likely from the few PvP i've seen) he spends chrono boosts on other shtuff
C) you're getting way ahead because you're spending *some* chrono boosts on probes.
Basically, you have twice the chrono boosts he has, and you don't really need to spend them on probes (and still get a higher econ than him). That's a definite advantage, though i bet at first you'd need to spend it on probes. It's all fine and dandy to be able to chrono boost all the warpgates almost all the time, but you need to have the money to support it. But that'll come fast enough, what with a FE and everything. And then those chrono boosts probably help to get the stuff you need to survive.
And then the opponent eventually has to slow down production to expand, and that's when you roll over him. At least that's how i think this strat's supposed to work, right?
Chronoboost reduces time by 1/3.
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Very nice write up, but I'm a bit worried this can be countered easily by some one base strategies. If confronted with this strategy I would counter with the Ninja Build and render your forcefields useless!
I will be sure to try this out on Battle.net though. It sounds a lot more fun than one basing every PvP.
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I'd say this is quite risky against a competent player... If he's going 1gate -> robo which is quite common, at the time he can make a warp prism and warp in 2-3 zealots in your mineral line and destroy everything you have while your army is parked outside his door... This has happened to me, though I admit its rare that people get prisms.
However, most definitaly will be crushed by a decent 1base colossus push...
I really wish expanding earlier could work in pvp, but I just dont see how. I'm sad to say that my strat of 2gate+robo+pheonixes is just too damn effective...
I've even lost to 1base colossus+pheonix+3gate+chargetech, which is just really sad that you can get away with doing that much on 1 base, and then crush the opponent. Thats how dumb the PvP matchup is atm...
(I'm a 900 protoss btw, but I think that way over-estimates my skillevel)
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On September 01 2010 02:14 phant wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 01 2010 00:45 Nidoa wrote:
Not that i'm an expert or anything (not even protoss, lol) but there's two things i'd like to point out regarding that build.
1. There's a patch about to come out that's going to (somewhat) nerf the zealots, which will reduce the number of em that you can muster. That's probably going to weaken this strat against anything that doesnt really use zealots (otherwise it cuts both ways) AND requires you to have them (phoenixes and DTs don't, really, or so the OP states). Collossi i guess are going to be the worst of it, but i bet theres a way to tweak the strat around it.
2. This one might be obvious for alla you protoss players, but it JUST hit poor terran me. Chrono boosting reduces build time by half, or in other words doubles the production rate. But getting a second nexus will have the same effect on your probe production. Basically what i mean is that once you get your second nexus up, and you keep constant production of probes at both, you'll either be
A) staying on par with him because he's spending all his chrono boosts on probes
B) getting ahead because (and thats likely from the few PvP i've seen) he spends chrono boosts on other shtuff
C) you're getting way ahead because you're spending *some* chrono boosts on probes.
Basically, you have twice the chrono boosts he has, and you don't really need to spend them on probes (and still get a higher econ than him). That's a definite advantage, though i bet at first you'd need to spend it on probes. It's all fine and dandy to be able to chrono boost all the warpgates almost all the time, but you need to have the money to support it. But that'll come fast enough, what with a FE and everything. And then those chrono boosts probably help to get the stuff you need to survive.
And then the opponent eventually has to slow down production to expand, and that's when you roll over him. At least that's how i think this strat's supposed to work, right? Chronoboost reduces time by 1/3.
Oh, cool. That makes my point even better. A second nexus doubles probe production (and chronoboosts available), while just one nexus cant keep up with 2 nexi's worth of probes even if he chronoboosted probes all the time (chronoboosts which he then wouldnt have for anything else, really).
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the thing is its all to easy for a protoss to work around a sentry @ his own choke to keep units in. A pylon at the edge of his base to warm some unit and and surround... Or even a stray probe +proxy pylon and they just run into your base...
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I've tried this idea out a bunch. It's only okay against 1-base collosus builds. You do have an econ advantage by the time the collosi push out, but it's still pretty easy to get rolled by that first push. Maybe my gateway-vs-collosi micro sucks. I don't know.
The big problem I've had with this build, however, is drops. You have to station your whole army at your opponent's base to contain them. An immortal drop in your main breaks your contain, and then he'll hit your nat w/ his main army as you retreat to defend your main.
All-in-all, it's something that can work, but I was losing more often than I was winning with it.
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I think you, and a lot of players, are missing something in your analysis for why PvP is centered on one-base play (and something that needs to be addressed badly in general):
Protoss units, especially in PvP, are extremely hard to set up a defense against.
What I mean by this statement is that a defensive position is simply not very useful against P in most situations, especially early game. A ramp or partial walloff, for example, does very little to stop a few zeals or a 4gate push because it simply doesn't grant much of an advantage to the defender at all. It's far too easy for a toss player to push up a ramp/through a choke without being at a significant advantage vs. another toss (and in general) especially early game - which means that PvP is almost guaranteed to see a lot of 1base play because it is much harder to defend in PvP than it is to attack.
Let me say that again:
It is harder to defend in PvP than it is to attack.
Granted, this is not true in all cases, but on average making a bunch of dudes out of 2-4 gates and attacking early puts almost all the burden on the defender - which is a decidedly un-Starcrafty concept, especially for the early game. This is not some sort of cheese rush or bunker timing - this is making T1 units at the normal time and attacking - and making it so a good sim-base/timing/positioning is not enough to stop the attack. This is pretty stupid and really removes the entire strategy aspect from the MU.
I'd love to see this change. I'm not sure how it could, without highground miss chance or something similar, because it's just so damn hard to stop a P opponent with even 1 more round of production, even with reinforcements on your side, because of how useless a "defensive position" is against them early game. It just limits options so much the match is not particularly dynamic.
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EPT
