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I recently came up with a way that I would handle breaking out of the 1 base all in's so heavily concentrated on in pvp. I thought i would take the time to write up a post about the match up, and go over some ideas about what its about currently, and my idea on changing it. Get ready for a long post :D I know the post is long, but i put a lot of work and thought into it.
There are 4 basic build for protoss to do in this match up. All of them revolve around a ton of 1 base aggression. Lets take a look at each one, then break it down to why PvP is only about 1 base all-ins.
1: 3 Gate Robo. The first build, and one of the most widely used builds in any MU, This build consists of getting up a couple of gateways, and a robotics bay, then pushing with either 1 or 2 immortals. With this build, there are a few roads to go down, but a lot of those have to deal with general gateway composition, and are widely stylistic. Getting stalkers, or a lot of zelots, etc. Usually, you don't get an obs first, and just go straight to pushing with proxy pylons, plus your immortal count. General transitions that are favored are going into colossus, getting an extra warpgate, or stargate. Usually, there is no expanding unless the opponent has expanded, or unless you have a substantial lead. This build is seen as the most safe, as it can hold off 4 gate until colossus, then crush it, and is pretty immune to any other type of play.
2: 4 Warp Gate. The goal of this build is to get 4 warp gates as fast as possible. You push as soon as you get warpgate research, and are usually the aggressor, because you can reinforce so fast. Stylistically, people usually vary their gateway composition, but it usually is a good distribution which seems to work best, as a mass amount of zelots can usually beat stalkers straight up. General transitions are to get a robo bay and get colossus fast, or mass immortals, or get a stargate as well. Very few opt for the 5th gateway, because you can usually macro up almost 100% of your minerals on 4 gates. For expanding, the same hold true as with the previous build. This build is a bit risky, because if one goes for dt's, you have pretty mush lost the game (unless, you got a robotics bay, which means less units). There is the "Korean" style that is serious aggression, and we have seen a rise in that, but if you manage to hold off the initial push, the lack of gas and fewer probe count means this build is even more risky.
3: Dark Templar. This build is most likely the least seen, because if someone gets detection, it can be a lot harder to deal the amount of damage necessary to justify the templar tech. There are two general deviations to this build, but they are pretty much the same. One sacrifices defense for quicker DT's, and one allows for later DT's. But usually it ends up on a 3rd gateway and warpgate and then dt's finish. Against a 3 Gate robo, this build ends up to not be really effective, because of the observer and the fact that dt's really have to rely on their cloaking technology to be a cost effective unit (because they go squish). If a player doesn't gg from this build, after the first few dt's, usually you will either end up expanding and maintain map control for a little while (until adequate detection and base defenses can be built. There is a timing window for the 4 warp gate players to expand with the later dt's (which are added on to the push with 3-4 gates in this build), because 4 gate can take control of the ramp early. Generally though, this build is thought of cheesy and all-in ish, and we have yet to see it really in professional play to be a more standardize and reasonable play. The reason why people like it is because it gives such a giant advantage vs 4 warp gate and phoenix-ing players. General DT play usually traditions out of it as fast as possible because with detection, dt's still remain a threat, but aren't that useful in a general army composition.
4: Phoenix This build was popularized by Liquid`Tyler aka Nony, and revolves around 2 gate + phoenix. This is a technically hard build in pvp, as you need to use the phoenix a lot in order to justify the army cost (the lack of general army ground units). Overall this can beat players who get a lot of ground forces and colossus, but it relies on sentry defense and amazing apm and control of phoenixes to deal a swift enough blow to expand. Usually, you can't just kill the player on 1 base. General transitions include getting a robo bay or more gate ways, or even expanding. Overall though, the difficulty and "un-sturdy" nature of this build causes it to not be seen that often. It has really good potential though, but if anything will be really made of it, we have yet to see. (in PvP that is)
There are other builds, 2 gate colossus, stargate robo combo pack, forge fast expand, but these build are a lot less standard and are considered less solid and mainstream.
The issue with all of these builds is that there is little to no expanding by protoss, and the transitions still rely on 1 base play. Now in the past i have experimented with archon +zelot builds in pvp, or other builds, trying to break this one sided idea of not being able to expand early. These builds failed. The reason why 1 base is so strong in the match up is due to the potent nature of how the units compare in the early game. Each unit is very strong, and having only a couple of production cycles more can win you the game.
I have been musing over the idea of getting an early expansion, and every time i have tried expanding, I lost in a landslide because i had to cut those key units that made the difference. Or Because i waited to long to get colossus. Now, I am not perfect by any means, but neither were my opponents.
As for some background information, I am in diamond, around 700~ or so currently, and i don't ladder so much. I have around a ~60% overall win rate, and an ~80% win rate versus zerg, (and a below average in my pvp until recently, because i hated the 1 base so much.) In each of my match ups, I had my expo planed out, and in the case of zerg, i have the time when i get my third down really well. My Terran is changing so i can get a 3rd base as well. My average game is about 15+ minuets in length, (usually around 30+ minuets vs Terran)
Now, I have been trying to break out of this mode of pvp frustration because i cannot expand, and if i do (which i have tried a lot), i loose. I'm pretty sure every protoss feels kind of weak on army right after they expand, if their opponent is on 1 base.
Now, early on in the beta, I saw Liquid`Nazgul do a lot of shenanigans with force fielding the opponents ramp. Also, Orb loved to get lots of sentries. Now the thing i am trying to propose is a general idea, and not a build order. As we have examined, all of the listed builds are pretty much 1 base ideas which focus on ending the game early, or at least expanding as late as possible, along with your opponent.
Warning! This is not a build. Do not think of this as a build, because it is not. A build is a set of static orders for units to place down structures at pre-calculated times. This is not that. This is the idea that using sentries can allow you to get an early expo, over the norm of pvp players.
The Idea: Using sentries and zealots to secure the expo early game.
Now lets examine how to make this feel safe. (and early game PvP)
Execution and Examination of Early Game PvP
You need to scout the other protoss, to see if he makes an early zealot, or going 2 gate. In general, you should always get AN early zealot. Because (when i faced off against TTOne), your opponent can over-whelm you by chrono boosting out 2 zelots early game, and catching you off your guard. By getting 1 zealot and scouting afterwords, you can see if it is safe to just stay on 1 zealot. Also, if your opponent doesn't get an early zealot, please punish him by chrono boosting out 2 zelots and rallying to his base. You can put him at a severe disadvantage, because of the strength of zealots vs probes.
So, generally this leaves you with 1-2 zealots, before you core. You can then usually get a stalker, or sentry out early to deal with any aggression, and scouting, and push. I would say to get the stalker, as it can become useful to end scouting.
After starting warpgate and getting another (possible 2 gateways), i would start pumping out a couple of sentries. When you get your warpgate research, just like in the normal 4 gate, you push out. It is important to note that at this stage, you would usually be trying to end the game. Not here though. Your main goal is to gain ground and park yourself out near the base. You should not push in to kill.
At this point, you usually have a few units, 5-7 or so, and are warping in more. It is important to note that if you warp in sentries (3 or so) you can free up enough money to expand early, and use your gas. You might even be able to cut a gateway early and get it after the expand goes down, to get your expansion out even earlier.
So, in this situation, you are basing the strength of your army on sentries in the very early game. Is this a good idea, or a bad one?
Well, i would say its a great idea. Sentries, along with zelots, are an amazing combination. You use sentries to trap your the enemy's units, cut off reinforcements, and the other players zealots, and can be game changing. Also, they are great for defense, holding back pushes for that key time, and delaying units.
I'm not going to give a BO, because whats important isn't the order of what i get, its the idea of how I'm going out expanding. With this framework, I produce zealot sentry exclusively against a 3 gate robo and 4 gate-ing player. As soon as i transfer my probes and my expo gets up, i will throw down a robo facility (getting the gas a bit later, because the minerals are needed more). After getting the robo facility (i am trying to get map control this entire time, staying away from the players base in case of colossus), i get an obs and a quick robo bay to get colossus.
This is the general transition i make, because in order to deal with larger gateway armies, or colossus, a good response is to just get colossus yourself. Once i get range i push in. Since i have had the expansion so early, it kicked in and now i can double pump colossus, or get more gateway units then my opponent and overwhelm them.
The Framework:
Now, how does this differ from any other build that i spoke of? Why can't i just do this right away? Or normally? Well the idea is to use the power of zealot sentry early on, along with the gas heavy nature, to pop out an early expo. The idea of not trying to kill your opponent in the first few minuets of the game on 1 base, and waiting until you can get colossus out to finish him off. All of the build listed have timing pushes which are almost always executing in order to defeat the opponent on 1 base.
I have found through playing, that pretty much all of these types of play on 1 base can be dealt with, or delayed until colossus comes out and your 2nd base gets operational. The delay can come from getting map control, using chokes, but general use of force field lines and traps from the middle of a map, to your natural, can delay an attacking army for a very long time, buying you time to macro up, get your expo up, and get colossus.
Here are a couple replays i managed to save (since most of my replays got wiped, because of max limit, which i only found a program until just recently to help resolve.)
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2890
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2891
Now, to note, these games were only played recently, in the past few days. My play was less then ideal, and i made a lot of mistakes. I don't feel i won either of the games based on the build alone, but based on the experience of the other players. I will post more replays soon, hopefully against better opponents, as I make my way up the ladder. Again, this is not about MY personal ability to play the game, so please don't criticize the replays.
Summary: The idea is to get out 3 gateways, expand, slap down another gateway asap, while making sentries (and as many zealots as your money will allow), then getting out colossus after your 2nd expo is done and probe transfer is complete.
Now some general comments/questions/concerns might include:
Q: How does this deal with DT's?
A: If you suspect DT's, meaning an early 2nd gas, holding at choke with few units, you should park yourself at your ramp and get out an obs asap. They cannot then stop you from expanding, and you can use force fields to delay any dt's at your ramp while you get out an obs. While your expansion comes later then theirs, they cannot push you due to lack of untis, and you will have the upper hand on them when it comes to colossus because you got out robo before they did.
Q: How does this deal with Phoenix?
A: I would suspect you have to play more defensively, focusing on stalkers and economy, but you would get your expansion up early, and perhaps make more stalkers now. You would have the army advantage, and perhaps you might want to transition into blink stalker (or perhaps even dt's as well) The build remains strong, but adapts to suit the situation.
Q:How would you deal with 2 gate fast Colossus?
A: You would need to warp in more stalkers at this point, and use force fields to stop zealots from hitting them. But you will have way more ground units then them, and you can generally hold your ground until you can start double pumping colossus from 4gate + 2 robo.
Q: What would you call this style of play?
A: I guess it could be called either 3 Gate Sentry FE, or even just Sentry FE
Q: Whats the reason for 1 base all-in play?
A: Because if a player expands early on, normally, the other player can just sit in their base and mass units, either colossus, or just more gateway units, and push out when their expo gets up. They will have more food because of the other player halting production, and will basically win.
Q: Will this work up in any other match up?
A: I would like to argue that there are a lot better ideas to take your 2nd expand in PvZ and PvT. While it might work, I don't think it will be as strong as in PvP, because the issue in PvP was all the one basing
Q: What about Blink Stalkers?
A:Well ill add to the Q/A, but in general, blink stalkers cant really do anything. early on. You need to get blink early, and by the time blink comes out, you should have sufficient forces to deal with the amount of stalkers, because your getting such cheap units. But currently, blink stalkers are not a viable PvP idea. They get eaten by 4 gate, 3 gate robo, and dt's, which are the 3 most common strategies out there. I suppose an idea is not to just say that, "well its bad so why do it?", but to ask how can you overcome the issue of blink? If you see blink stalkers, get immortals instead of waiting on colossus. After you get a few immortals, you can then transition into colossus easy enough. You can usually hold off blink stalkers until you can get that robo out.
Findings
You almost need to get a gateway at 12, and put on some early pressure (2 chrono boosted zealots) if you don't see zealots being made. This way, you can delay and do damage to the economy of those who do an early all-in style, and get gateways instead of units and probes. Also, you can only expand once you have gotten map control and are outside of their base. Also, you need to scout to see if they are going 4 gates, because you must match them in gateways. You should also at least even, if not maintain a higher zealot count then your opponent. Your sentries cant really kite units without energy, and die easily without zealots doing/taking the brunt of the damage.
Against blink stalkers, you should make a few immortals out of the robo facility right away, to combat the stalkers gaining ground.
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You propose an interesting idea. I'll watch the replays shortly.
I'm concerned that the mass stalker which I see in most PvP games would completely annihilate you on any map with a semi-open choke. If they are careful with their stalkers and back out constantly, trapping them in FFs will be difficult at best with the speed and range of stalkers. You units will be kited to death as they macro up. Seeing your inability to push out I would in turn expand and continue to pick off your vulnerable units.
As a side note, I play at about the same rating as you in mid-diamond. I'll give this build a try and see how it goes for me. Another build in the arsenal of PvP would be great.
*Edit - If anyone wants to practice this add me Jon.1889 600-700ish diamond toss
I'd like to see how I fare against and this build and with this build.
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Umm... I like the effort and this may work on some stupid 1/2 gate robo build but...
Yeah.. No, a 4 gate will completely shut this down. I like the idea of this though, and if Blizzard wasn't so fucked up only worrying about TvZ they might have changed the way PvP is played but as it stands now, I can't see this build being viable.
Prove me wrong though, I'd love to see a working FE.
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With good control of your army, you can actually EAT stalker builds alive. Because zealots eat stalkers. And you have so much force field to use, its absurd how many force fields you can throw down to trap stalkers.
Also, i have had no trouble with 4 gate builds, as you can usually delay with sentries and produce just as fast as them. since it is designed around a 4 gate build.
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Do you mind if we test it out? My account on the US server is random.406
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Osaka27149 Posts
A very readable and well presented idea. Please keep it up to date on how it progresses.
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I played against it twice using a very aggressive timed 4 gate push and he was unable to defend against it. Had I been a lesser being (lol) and gotten the wrong unit composition (ie. Stalker exclusive) I think he might been able to hold it off but the right mix of units crushed his.
After seeing it in play though, I think it'll do extremely well against almost anything other than 4 gate pushes. I would assume that it counters Robo play (Immortals get destroyed by Zealot Sentry mixes or if the opponent goes Colossi, the expo will be up and the economic advantage will have kicked in long before he's able to get a Colossus out) and Phoenixes won't be able to get to a critical mass before the expo is up and running.
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Interesting strategy, but I think 3-4gate blink stalker can shut this down. Pretty much negates force fields, and if you don't have any fast immortals or a sizable stalker count of your own, it's pretty much GG. I think a colossus rush would also take this out easily.
It looks you are relying on early force fields to cut into his stalker/immortal army and provide enough space to early expand. However, he still has the option of using his 4-gate or 3-gate robo defensively, and if he spots you trying to expand he can just throw down an expansion of his own. All this leads to is both players 2-basing the rest of the game and neither player having a huge economy advantage. So really, what's the point of trying to fast expand in the first place? By moving out with your zealot/sentry army, you are playing offensively, and against an offensive build like the 3 or 4 gate, you can't hope that he is just going to do nothing while you expand (unless you do something epic like infinitely force fielding his ramp... but i don't think that is very easy to do).
I haven't watched the replays yet, but personally I think that PvP is somewhat destined for 1-basing. This doesn't mean the match-up is broken, just that it is a more micro-dependent and less macro-dependent match-up. In other words, using sentry+zealot to contain the opponent/defend an expo is not a bad idea, but you might as well 4-gate zealot sentry and then go for a delayed expo rather than 2-gate zealot sentry for that super early expo. It's not like you're going to have both bases saturated immediately anyway, and it's much easier to justify the expo if you have a decent army count.
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On August 31 2010 15:27 Ernzoa wrote:
Interesting strategy, but I think 3-4gate blink stalker can shut this down. Pretty much negates force fields, and if you don't have any fast immortals or a sizable stalker count of your own, it's pretty much GG. I think a colossus rush would also take this out easily.
It looks you are relying on early force fields to cut into his stalker/immortal army and provide enough space to early expand. However, he still has the option of using his 4-gate or 3-gate robo defensively, and if he spots you trying to expand he can just throw down an expansion of his own. All this leads to is both players 2-basing the rest of the game and neither player having a huge economy advantage. So really, what's the point of trying to fast expand in the first place? By moving out with your zealot/sentry army, you are playing offensively, and against an offensive build like the 3 or 4 gate, you can't hope that he is just going to do nothing while you expand (unless you do something epic like infinitely force fielding his ramp... but i don't think that is very easy to do).
I haven't watched the replays yet, but personally I think that PvP is somewhat destined for 1-basing. This doesn't mean the match-up is broken, just that it is a more micro-dependent and less macro-dependent match-up. In other words, using sentry+zealot to contain the opponent/defend an expo is not a bad idea, but you might as well 4-gate zealot sentry and then go for a delayed expo rather than 2-gate zealot sentry for that super early expo. It's not like you're going to have both bases saturated immediately anyway, and it's much easier to justify the expo if you have a decent army count.
Please tell me you're kidding. What's the point of 4 gating if my opponent is going to 4 gate, no one will be ahead. What's the point of going 2 gate robo if my opponent is going to go 2 gate robo, no one will be ahead. What's the point of going 2 gate early zealot harass if my opponent is going 2 gate early zealot harass, no one will be ahead. It's called a fucking mirror matchup for a reason.
Anyway, I think in the second game we played, he did do 4 gate expand because he didn't have enough units in the first game. Didn't work.
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How would you deal with 3 gate blink stalker? Force Field won't do much against decent blinker stalker micro, and once the blink stalkers get into your main it's just him kiting you :/
Blink stalker is also a very strong opening imo. Shuts down phoenix play for the most part and really punishes an attempt at 1 base fast colossus, so it isn't one of the fringe builds. An immortal or something would really help, but an immortal really needs some stalker support imo vs Blink stalkers.
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On August 31 2010 15:27 Ernzoa wrote:
Interesting strategy, but I think 3-4gate blink stalker can shut this down. Pretty much negates force fields, and if you don't have any fast immortals or a sizable stalker count of your own, it's pretty much GG. I think a colossus rush would also take this out easily.
Well ill add to the Q/A, but in general, blink stalkers cant really do anything. early on. You need to get blink early, and by the time blink comes out, you should have sufficient forces to deal with the amount of stalkers, because your getting such cheap units. But currently, blink stalkers are not a viable PvP idea. They get eaten by 4 gate, 3 gate robo, and dt's, which are the 3 most common strategies out there.
It looks you are relying on early force fields to cut into his stalker/immortal army and provide enough space to early expand. However, he still has the option of using his 4-gate or 3-gate robo defensively, and if he spots you trying to expand he can just throw down an expansion of his own. All this leads to is both players 2-basing the rest of the game and neither player having a huge economy advantage. So really, what's the point of trying to fast expand in the first place? By moving out with your zealot/sentry army, you are playing offensively, and against an offensive build like the 3 or 4 gate, you can't hope that he is just going to do nothing while you expand (unless you do something epic like infinitely force fielding his ramp... but i don't think that is very easy to do).
So, this kinda goes back to brood war thinking. You always want to move out your army when you expand. You wont see a professional player NOT do this. Its good just go gain ground and make sure your enermy isn't about to attack. Then, the expansion is at your disadvantage. Even if you don't do any damage, or pressure, you want to secure ground so you have time to lay down ff's and fall back.
As far as putting down an expo as well, you will get it out earlier, and when colossus comes out, you will have the better composition. You can still produce almost 100% by only making sentries a few cycles in a row, and still have units on the field. Also, it was shown by Nazgul that infinite force fielding the ramp is something that, while you need to pay attention, can be done to great effect.
On August 31 2010 15:32 youngminii wrote:
Anyway, I think in the second game we played, he did do 4 gate expand because he didn't have enough units in the first game. Didn't work.
The thing is, while i was trying to apply the general idea, i got a gate on 14 on each of the games we played. Some general tweaking to my opener might be in order, but i think if we played a 3rd game, i could have held you off (as i held you off for a while there, but you over powered me.) Also, i think you might just have also been a better player then me. So, i wouldn't rule out this build against a 4 gate (because its basically 4 gate). Again, the idea is not so much to 4 gate/3gate into an expo, but to use sentries as a way to get up an early expo.
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I don't see how you can disregard blink stalkers as a viable opening :/ Blink is actually a pretty fast upgrade if you chronoboost it constantly (which you should be since your stalkers hinge on it)
It does completely crumble to 3 gate robo, but it does fairly decent against 4 gate if you micro well since 100% stalker micro'd well can actually do very well against 4 gate. I think it could actually be ideal since blink stalkers can't be force fielded very well.
Sentries are extremely heavy on the gas, so you're not going to have the units to deal with stalkers considering I can get around 8 or so stalkers at your base.
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On August 31 2010 15:32 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 15:27 Ernzoa wrote:
Interesting strategy, but I think 3-4gate blink stalker can shut this down. Pretty much negates force fields, and if you don't have any fast immortals or a sizable stalker count of your own, it's pretty much GG. I think a colossus rush would also take this out easily.
It looks you are relying on early force fields to cut into his stalker/immortal army and provide enough space to early expand. However, he still has the option of using his 4-gate or 3-gate robo defensively, and if he spots you trying to expand he can just throw down an expansion of his own. All this leads to is both players 2-basing the rest of the game and neither player having a huge economy advantage. So really, what's the point of trying to fast expand in the first place? By moving out with your zealot/sentry army, you are playing offensively, and against an offensive build like the 3 or 4 gate, you can't hope that he is just going to do nothing while you expand (unless you do something epic like infinitely force fielding his ramp... but i don't think that is very easy to do).
I haven't watched the replays yet, but personally I think that PvP is somewhat destined for 1-basing. This doesn't mean the match-up is broken, just that it is a more micro-dependent and less macro-dependent match-up. In other words, using sentry+zealot to contain the opponent/defend an expo is not a bad idea, but you might as well 4-gate zealot sentry and then go for a delayed expo rather than 2-gate zealot sentry for that super early expo. It's not like you're going to have both bases saturated immediately anyway, and it's much easier to justify the expo if you have a decent army count. Please tell me you're kidding. What's the point of 4 gating if my opponent is going to 4 gate, no one will be ahead. What's the point of going 2 gate robo if my opponent is going to go 2 gate robo, no one will be ahead. What's the point of going 2 gate early zealot harass if my opponent is going 2 gate early zealot harass, no one will be ahead. It's called a fucking mirror matchup for a reason. Anyway, I think in the second game we played, he did do 4 gate expand because he didn't have enough units in the first game. Didn't work.
Yes, it's a mirror matchup, and the "safest" way to play is not to deviate too far from your opponent's strategy early on. Like I said before, it's viable for both players to 4-gate or for one to 3-gate robo and another to 4-gate, but in most of these cases it all comes down to timing and micro rather than macro. Just because you have 4 gate worth of units doesn't mean they all have to attack during your first push. You can pressure, get map control, etc, and THEN expand, all the while gaining small advantages through solid unit composition, placement, and scouting. IMO there's no "fix-all" way to FE in PvP if one player is going for any sort of early aggressive build (where your opponent has double your macro potential), instead players should find ways to gain small tactical advantages over one another (gas stealing, drops, constant scouting, etc).
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On August 31 2010 15:41 FragKrag wrote:
I don't see how you can disregard blink stalkers as a viable opening :/ Blink is actually a pretty fast upgrade if you chronoboost it constantly (which you should be since your stalkers hinge on it)
It does completely crumble to 3 gate robo, but it does fairly decent against 4 gate if you micro well since 100% stalker micro'd well can actually do very well against 4 gate. I think it could actually be ideal since blink stalkers can't be force fielded very well.
Sentries are extremely heavy on the gas, so you're not going to have the units to deal with stalkers considering I can get around 8 or so stalkers at your base.
If you chrono boost your research, you wont have warp gate faster then I would get it. So that means i can pressure you long enough to get out immortals and shut down blink stalkers.
You can pressure, get map control, etc, and THEN expand, all the while gaining small advantages through solid unit composition, placement, and scouting. IMO there's no "fix-all" way to FE in PvP if one player is going for any sort of early aggressive build, instead players should find ways to gain small tactical advantages over one another (gas stealing, drops, constant scouting, etc).
As I explained earlier in my post, several times, the issue with expanding, even if you have map control, is one base can pretty much overun your army. Because you need to spend resources and time not producing units to get more probes to make your expo actually worth it. The time it takes for your expansion to kick created a huge timing attack window that would cripple you unless you had a large advantage (such as wiping out his army, and not losing much of yours, etc)
Also, a strong strategy should NEVER rely on tactics like drops or gas stealing to win. I actually don't think gas stealing is a good idea in anything other then a mind game for pvp, because you don't really need 2 gas heavy early on.
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I think the problem with FEing in PvP is that in general if you do it too early, you'll get run over easily by a 4 gate or so, but if you do it too late you'll be too far behind in colossus count and crumple to a fast colossus :/
While this build does put pressure on the protoss at first with the zealot/sentry, there really isn't much for a person going fast robo to be concerned about if he's getting fast colossus since force fields actually work in his favor.
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On August 31 2010 15:51 FragKrag wrote:
I think the problem with FEing in PvP is that in general if you do it too early, you'll get run over easily by a 4 gate or so, but if you do it too late you'll be too far behind in colossus count and crumple to a fast colossus :/
While this build does put pressure on the protoss at first with the zealot/sentry, there really isn't much for a person going fast robo to be concerned about if he's getting fast colossus since force fields actually work in his favor.
One solution I can think to this problem is to get Hallucinate soon after you put down your expo and you feel safe. Scout with the phoenix and if you see any Robo play pop down 2 Stargates and mass Phoenixes.
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On August 31 2010 15:54 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 15:51 FragKrag wrote:
I think the problem with FEing in PvP is that in general if you do it too early, you'll get run over easily by a 4 gate or so, but if you do it too late you'll be too far behind in colossus count and crumple to a fast colossus :/
While this build does put pressure on the protoss at first with the zealot/sentry, there really isn't much for a person going fast robo to be concerned about if he's getting fast colossus since force fields actually work in his favor. One solution I can think to this problem is to get Hallucinate soon after you put down your expo and you feel safe. Scout with the phoenix and if you see any Robo play pop down 2 Stargates and mass Phoenixes.
Well in the game where i played cloud, he went for colossus right after he pushed out with a 3 gate. i ended up killing the colossus with stalkers, and his army with my zealot sentry, and i had an expo up as well as i was on my way to getting colossus, and double pumping them.
I am more of a fan of double pumping colossus because it works well with my sentry zealot based ground army. Also, you can double pump them because you have an expo up, and he doesn't.
In the past, i have dabbled in a 4 gate push that includes hallucination as well as a bunch of sentries (the push comes later, but it looks like a 3 gate robo so people often focus on the wrong units.
On August 31 2010 15:51 FragKrag wrote:
...
While this build..
This is not a build. I have stated this many many times. Do not think of this as a build, because it is not. A build is a set of static orders for units to place down structures at pre-calculated times. This is not that. This is the idea that using sentries can allow you to get an early expo, over the norm of pvp players.
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On August 31 2010 15:46 hellsan631 wrote:
As I explained earlier in my post, several times, the issue with expanding, even if you have map control, is one base can pretty much overun your army. Because you need to spend resources and time not producing units to get more probes to make your expo actually worth it. The time it takes for your expansion to kick created a huge timing attack window that would cripple you unless you had a large advantage (such as wiping out his army, and not losing much of yours, etc)
Also, a strong strategy should NEVER rely on tactics like drops or gas stealing to win. I actually don't think gas stealing is a good idea in anything other then a mind game for pvp, because you don't really need 2 gas heavy early on.
You're correct in saying that a 1-basing P should be able to crush your early expo if you only have 2gate or so of production. As I explained in my earlier posts, I am skeptical of this strategy for that reason.
And as for PvP tactics, I'm not saying that you should make your strategy reliant on drops or gas steals, but that in general "standard" PvP play usually consists of 2 or 3 gateways, a possible tech building or deviation, or perhaps a 4th gateway. That means that the core of each army early on is quite similar, consisting of mostly gateway units. Because the spectrum of viable builds is somewhat limited to lots of early production, the meta-game calls for both players to stay on 1-base early on. Your intentions of making the match-up less "all-in" by fast expanding run contrary to the meta-game, which means that fast expending is pretty much going "all-in" for the first 10 minutes of the game.
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On August 31 2010 15:54 hellsan631 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 15:54 youngminii wrote:On August 31 2010 15:51 FragKrag wrote:
I think the problem with FEing in PvP is that in general if you do it too early, you'll get run over easily by a 4 gate or so, but if you do it too late you'll be too far behind in colossus count and crumple to a fast colossus :/
While this build does put pressure on the protoss at first with the zealot/sentry, there really isn't much for a person going fast robo to be concerned about if he's getting fast colossus since force fields actually work in his favor. One solution I can think to this problem is to get Hallucinate soon after you put down your expo and you feel safe. Scout with the phoenix and if you see any Robo play pop down 2 Stargates and mass Phoenixes. Well in the game where i played cloud, he went for colossus right after he pushed out with a 3 gate. i ended up killing the colossus with stalkers, and his army with my zealot sentry, and i had an expo up as well as i was on my way to getting colossus, and double pumping them. I am more of a fan of double pumping colossus because it works well with my sentry zealot based ground army. Also, you can double pump them because you have an expo up, and he doesn't. In the past, i have dabbled in a 4 gate push that includes hallucination as well as a bunch of sentries (the push comes later, but it looks like a 3 gate robo so people often focus on the wrong units. This is not a build. I have stated this many many times. Do not think of this as a build, because it is not. A build is a set of static orders for units to place down structures at pre-calculated times. This is not that. This is the idea that using sentries can allow you to get an early expo, over the norm of pvp players.
Well then how do you pressure a protoss that is rushing colossus with your sentry expo 'theory'?
Phoenix probably won't be fast enough, and you're already sinking gas into sentries, and blink won't be ready fast enough after you see the colossus.
Sentry/Zealot pressure isn't going to do much vs a zealot heavy army in preparation for colossus
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On August 31 2010 16:04 Ernzoa wrote:
And as for PvP tactics, I'm not saying that you should make your strategy reliant on drops or gas steals, but that in general "standard" PvP play usually consists of 2 or 3 gateways, a possible tech building or deviation, or perhaps a 4th gateway. That means that the core of each army early on is quite similar, consisting of mostly gateway units. Because the spectrum of viable builds is somewhat limited to lots of early production, the meta-game calls for both players to stay on 1-base early on. Your intentions of making the match-up less "all-in" by fast expanding run contrary to the meta-game, which means that fast expending is pretty much going "all-in" for the first 10 minutes of the game.
Going "all-in" means that your entire goal is to kill the opponent, and if you don't, your done for. This isn't all in at any point. You just matching production, and holding ground. Force fields allow you to control space somewhat. Also, you don't have to win by a landslide. All you need is an adequate defense to get a small advantage, and bring that advantage into later game.
http://interactive2.usc.edu/blog/?p=3716
On August 31 2010 16:07 FragKrag wrote:
Well then how do you pressure a protoss that is rushing colossus with your sentry expo 'theory'?
Phoenix probably won't be fast enough, and you're already sinking gas into sentries, and blink won't be ready fast enough after you see the colossus.
Sentry/Zealot pressure isn't going to do much vs a zealot heavy army in preparation for colossus
You should always poke your enemy to see what they are doing. A zealot heavy army is doomed by the amount of force fields you can throw out, to trap the zeal's and kill a large portion of them.
For those who rush fast colossus, you wont get range, which wont allow your colossus to be effective until I can get my colossus out as well. Perhaps with a fast colossus, you can transition into phoenix play. But thats just another transition, and perhaps a good thing to note.
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I've used something similiar last week, with a goal of 3warpgates -> FF contain on the opponent and a quick nexus thanks to sentries. As a follow-up, though, I preferred to go for 2cannons @ nat while getting stargate for void rays, but, perhaps, just a robo would've been better.
Reasons why I opted for void rays was thinking that they'd need colossi to break out of FF, early cannons cover DT possibility and help against the enemy colossi push until they get range, and that's when I have 2 void rays and more coming.
With a robo of your own it just feels that even though you can get obs in case of DTs, your colossi range will be later than your opponent's. I found it very hard to win with rangeless colossi against ranged colossi, unless my army is much bigger. And it isn't.
If they made one immortal and an obs, or two immortals before colossi, I'd normally be able to containt them long enough; otherwise the attack came too early.
I couldn't contain any good 4-gating protoss at all, because they don't sit at their ramp, moving out before warpgate is done. Perhaps with a really early sentry(before warpgate finishes), I could FF them, but they still get an option of warping stuff outside using either a proxy pylon or pylon from main's edge.
Moreover, a lot of all-inish 1base protoss cut probes at like 20 for their 4gate push. It's faster gates, chrono on warpgate, and I have to abandon all thoughts of FE against those, holding for my dear life on my ramp. It's still really hard to defend against these - at least, it was for me. I stayed on 1gas in order to grab a faster nexus, so that could be a drawback. Perhaps if I naturally taken 2gases, I'd still be able to save minerals by making more sentries, and adapt to all-inish 4gate easier, forgoing the expansion(no need for it with 10 more probes).
No one did blink stalkers against me, but I suppose it would destroy me  . I wonder if a really fast robo after nexus -> immortals would be enough to hold. I also wonder if you would be able to retreat your contain from blinking stalkers - perhaps throwing a lot of FFs behind you to win time?
Phoenix should be able to stay at least even, first forcing you to come back home to defend (you'd still lose some probes), then taking an expansion, though later, but with a highly mobile harrass unit that also removes an option of colossus or immortal from you. Phoenixes overall feel really strong so long as they didn't get 4gated with a probe cut.
Void rays. No one did it against me but I presume you'd have to pull back, warp-in stalkers and turtle a bit. If the first void ray can show up in your base when you lack minerals for stalker, it'd be strong, otherwise - no. This'd have to be tested.
Overall my impression after using the build for some days was that regular colossi expansion, or phoenix openings were safer - but it could be that I just lucked timings/adaptations.
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very interesting ideas and an interesting build. i also tried to fast expand a couple times and i also watched the nazgul days with perma FFing the opponents ramp. my experience is, that u can not hold a delayed colossi build, because they destroy FF and outrange everything. esp. after the sentry nerf and colossi destroying FF, there is no way to have enough dps in your army against it. note that the opponent must not attack in any case before range and 2 colossi are finished. but since i would open with 3 gates and add a robo AFTERwards (like naniwa does), you can easily do a robo push when you expand too early (like on 2 gates) and wait for colossi if you expand late (like on 3 gates and building many lots and sentrys).
i play at 600 diamond EU, but i got the funny experience to gain 8 points from 800 rating guys and loose 16 against 600. i ladder at night on my stream, so tune in and do 2 customs if you get me there.
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The Idea itself is pretty good and will work pretty decent vs every build expect for 1-2 gate robo into fast colossi. With sentry/zealot you won´t have any kind of chance for taking the colos down.
But almost every build has his counters and i think this is it for an early expand. Because the colossi make such a big difference and you they 2shot the sentrys and burn the zealotline really really quick.
But it´s always good to try something so keep it going.
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In your standard pvp builds you left out the 2 gate zealot early pressure which I see much more than dts or phoenixes but I digress and your build could be modified to handle it.
Like a lot of people have been saying, a competent 3 gate colossus should beat the early expand into delayed colossus simply because colossus with the lance upgrade are very effective against both zealots and sentries. The first guy you played that went 3 gate robo wasn't very good, he had the colossus out late and engaged twice without the lance upgrade. An aggressive four gate might break you too, it just comes down to micro as they would have more units than you and you would have to cover your expansion.
It has potential but I don't think it's something that I'd be comfortable doing at mid diamond. I'd need to see how it performs more first.
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With bigger rush distances in maps fast expanding in PvP should be better since you'd have time to get an extra round of units out before the push hits, but proxy pylons prevent this from working.
I don't know. Maybe eventually somebody will figure out a way to safely fast expand in PvP, but I won't trust it until I see a pro use it with success.
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Trust me I would love for this to work. But a well timed 1 base colossus push would stomp this. There is a timing when he will have 2 colossus with range and a decent army and you dno't have colossus yet. At that time he can just kill your expo. Force fields does not work vs an army with colossus as they can just walk over them to remove them.
I tried for about 200 games on release to get a stable 2 base build for PvP and a variant of this was done a lot of times but it just gets rolled by a player with good 1 base colossus timings. Sure it might work against 4 gate wsince the robo is then late but against a 3 gate or 2 gate robo player it won't be in time.
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Very nice post, will definitly try some of this out when i get home.
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Back in beta I actually experimented with this a lot. It was sort of a natural transition behind the logic of "Well, I'm 4gating, but I guess its feeling too all-in so maybe I'll just sit here and contain,". Eventually I just started to cut a gateway and expand.
I really liked the feeling of this. Before I was worried to push up a ramp due to FF, but now I was using my opponent's ramp against them. Even better, I could keep an advantage with a smaller sized army. I actually tried this out vs T as well and it became my standard for a while in PvT, PvP.
But like above posters have stated, this can get you a quick and upsetting loss. Basically you're forcing your opponent to 1base, which is essentially the "issue" with current protoss (and terran) strategy. There are a few responses for your opponent; mainly blink stalkers, colossi, or proxy pylon/warp prism. All are more or less difficult to deal with because they generally come at the time before you have the unit advantage from your 2nd. Also, your army is likely split at this point as well.
So what can we do? I think the most success I've had with this is actually delaying my expansion, getting a robo for an observer and doing some good damage with the contain. If your opponent walls in, you can snipe a gateway/pylon. An active observer can give you an idea of how your opponent plans to break the contain, and how to deal with it. Reinforcements begin to turn this "fake map control" of a few gateway units/force fields, into actual map control.
This has worked with varying degrees of success for me. Sometimes a bad force field or my split armies along with the unrealized investment of an expansion will just be the end of the game.
Things I'm excited to try: Along with the spirit of the OP, I want to try to see if the contain will work earlier. If you're going up against 4gate, you basically need to be at their base before they get to yours. This doesn't leave you a lot of time, especially on the bigger maps...but perhaps there is a window where you can begin your containment, even before warpgate tech has finished. This way you are realizing the benefits of a FE in time to deal with the response. Maybe just purely sentries and a cannon at the bottom of their ramp? Who knows, get out there and test :D
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Not that i'm an expert or anything (not even protoss, lol) but there's two things i'd like to point out regarding that build.
1. There's a patch about to come out that's going to (somewhat) nerf the zealots, which will reduce the number of em that you can muster. That's probably going to weaken this strat against anything that doesnt really use zealots (otherwise it cuts both ways) AND requires you to have them (phoenixes and DTs don't, really, or so the OP states). Collossi i guess are going to be the worst of it, but i bet theres a way to tweak the strat around it.
2. This one might be obvious for alla you protoss players, but it JUST hit poor terran me. Chrono boosting reduces build time by half, or in other words doubles the production rate. But getting a second nexus will have the same effect on your probe production. Basically what i mean is that once you get your second nexus up, and you keep constant production of probes at both, you'll either be
A) staying on par with him because he's spending all his chrono boosts on probes
B) getting ahead because (and thats likely from the few PvP i've seen) he spends chrono boosts on other shtuff
C) you're getting way ahead because you're spending *some* chrono boosts on probes.
Basically, you have twice the chrono boosts he has, and you don't really need to spend them on probes (and still get a higher econ than him). That's a definite advantage, though i bet at first you'd need to spend it on probes. It's all fine and dandy to be able to chrono boost all the warpgates almost all the time, but you need to have the money to support it. But that'll come fast enough, what with a FE and everything. And then those chrono boosts probably help to get the stuff you need to survive.
And then the opponent eventually has to slow down production to expand, and that's when you roll over him. At least that's how i think this strat's supposed to work, right?
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Hmm what about 3 gate colossus+thermal lance with push at around 76 pop with 2 colossus, more coming? Sounds like it would catch this build off guard. Sentries would be useless as the colossus could micro around the cliffs (at least on most maps) and break your force fields if absolutely necessary. Besides, you won't be able to get colossus out in time if you do this, so you would slowly die regardless of how much gateway units you have off your 3 then 4 gates.
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On September 01 2010 00:52 EtherealDeath wrote:
Hmm what about 3 gate colossus+thermal lance with push at around 76 pop with 2 colossus, more coming? Sounds like it would catch this build off guard. Sentries would be useless as the colossus could micro around the cliffs (at least on most maps) and break your force fields if absolutely necessary. Besides, you won't be able to get colossus out in time if you do this, so you would slowly die regardless of how much gateway units you have off your 3 then 4 gates.
Yea, it's a straight out Build order loss if this is attempted against a 1 base colossus. Don't think any amount of tweaking is going to change that specific issue.
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On September 01 2010 01:10 tetramaster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 00:52 EtherealDeath wrote:
Hmm what about 3 gate colossus+thermal lance with push at around 76 pop with 2 colossus, more coming? Sounds like it would catch this build off guard. Sentries would be useless as the colossus could micro around the cliffs (at least on most maps) and break your force fields if absolutely necessary. Besides, you won't be able to get colossus out in time if you do this, so you would slowly die regardless of how much gateway units you have off your 3 then 4 gates. Yea, it's a straight out Build order loss if this is attempted against a 1 base colossus. Don't think any amount of tweaking is going to change that specific issue.
Hard to scout a 3 base colossus if you don't get robo or stargate too, so you'd be going in blind.
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if you're building so many sentries with this build, maybe you should get hallucinate for additional meatshield when the 1base push comes for you. also I guess you can scout if you're getting suspicious and have a little extra energy
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On September 01 2010 00:45 Nidoa wrote:
Not that i'm an expert or anything (not even protoss, lol) but there's two things i'd like to point out regarding that build.
1. There's a patch about to come out that's going to (somewhat) nerf the zealots, which will reduce the number of em that you can muster. That's probably going to weaken this strat against anything that doesnt really use zealots (otherwise it cuts both ways) AND requires you to have them (phoenixes and DTs don't, really, or so the OP states). Collossi i guess are going to be the worst of it, but i bet theres a way to tweak the strat around it.
2. This one might be obvious for alla you protoss players, but it JUST hit poor terran me. Chrono boosting reduces build time by half, or in other words doubles the production rate. But getting a second nexus will have the same effect on your probe production. Basically what i mean is that once you get your second nexus up, and you keep constant production of probes at both, you'll either be
A) staying on par with him because he's spending all his chrono boosts on probes
B) getting ahead because (and thats likely from the few PvP i've seen) he spends chrono boosts on other shtuff
C) you're getting way ahead because you're spending *some* chrono boosts on probes.
Basically, you have twice the chrono boosts he has, and you don't really need to spend them on probes (and still get a higher econ than him). That's a definite advantage, though i bet at first you'd need to spend it on probes. It's all fine and dandy to be able to chrono boost all the warpgates almost all the time, but you need to have the money to support it. But that'll come fast enough, what with a FE and everything. And then those chrono boosts probably help to get the stuff you need to survive.
And then the opponent eventually has to slow down production to expand, and that's when you roll over him. At least that's how i think this strat's supposed to work, right?
Chronoboost reduces time by 1/3.
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Very nice write up, but I'm a bit worried this can be countered easily by some one base strategies. If confronted with this strategy I would counter with the Ninja Build and render your forcefields useless!
I will be sure to try this out on Battle.net though. It sounds a lot more fun than one basing every PvP.
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I'd say this is quite risky against a competent player... If he's going 1gate -> robo which is quite common, at the time he can make a warp prism and warp in 2-3 zealots in your mineral line and destroy everything you have while your army is parked outside his door... This has happened to me, though I admit its rare that people get prisms.
However, most definitaly will be crushed by a decent 1base colossus push...
I really wish expanding earlier could work in pvp, but I just dont see how. I'm sad to say that my strat of 2gate+robo+pheonixes is just too damn effective...
I've even lost to 1base colossus+pheonix+3gate+chargetech, which is just really sad that you can get away with doing that much on 1 base, and then crush the opponent. Thats how dumb the PvP matchup is atm...
(I'm a 900 protoss btw, but I think that way over-estimates my skillevel)
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On September 01 2010 02:14 phant wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 01 2010 00:45 Nidoa wrote:
Not that i'm an expert or anything (not even protoss, lol) but there's two things i'd like to point out regarding that build.
1. There's a patch about to come out that's going to (somewhat) nerf the zealots, which will reduce the number of em that you can muster. That's probably going to weaken this strat against anything that doesnt really use zealots (otherwise it cuts both ways) AND requires you to have them (phoenixes and DTs don't, really, or so the OP states). Collossi i guess are going to be the worst of it, but i bet theres a way to tweak the strat around it.
2. This one might be obvious for alla you protoss players, but it JUST hit poor terran me. Chrono boosting reduces build time by half, or in other words doubles the production rate. But getting a second nexus will have the same effect on your probe production. Basically what i mean is that once you get your second nexus up, and you keep constant production of probes at both, you'll either be
A) staying on par with him because he's spending all his chrono boosts on probes
B) getting ahead because (and thats likely from the few PvP i've seen) he spends chrono boosts on other shtuff
C) you're getting way ahead because you're spending *some* chrono boosts on probes.
Basically, you have twice the chrono boosts he has, and you don't really need to spend them on probes (and still get a higher econ than him). That's a definite advantage, though i bet at first you'd need to spend it on probes. It's all fine and dandy to be able to chrono boost all the warpgates almost all the time, but you need to have the money to support it. But that'll come fast enough, what with a FE and everything. And then those chrono boosts probably help to get the stuff you need to survive.
And then the opponent eventually has to slow down production to expand, and that's when you roll over him. At least that's how i think this strat's supposed to work, right? Chronoboost reduces time by 1/3.
Oh, cool. That makes my point even better. A second nexus doubles probe production (and chronoboosts available), while just one nexus cant keep up with 2 nexi's worth of probes even if he chronoboosted probes all the time (chronoboosts which he then wouldnt have for anything else, really).
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the thing is its all to easy for a protoss to work around a sentry @ his own choke to keep units in. A pylon at the edge of his base to warm some unit and and surround... Or even a stray probe +proxy pylon and they just run into your base...
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I've tried this idea out a bunch. It's only okay against 1-base collosus builds. You do have an econ advantage by the time the collosi push out, but it's still pretty easy to get rolled by that first push. Maybe my gateway-vs-collosi micro sucks. I don't know.
The big problem I've had with this build, however, is drops. You have to station your whole army at your opponent's base to contain them. An immortal drop in your main breaks your contain, and then he'll hit your nat w/ his main army as you retreat to defend your main.
All-in-all, it's something that can work, but I was losing more often than I was winning with it.
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I think you, and a lot of players, are missing something in your analysis for why PvP is centered on one-base play (and something that needs to be addressed badly in general):
Protoss units, especially in PvP, are extremely hard to set up a defense against.
What I mean by this statement is that a defensive position is simply not very useful against P in most situations, especially early game. A ramp or partial walloff, for example, does very little to stop a few zeals or a 4gate push because it simply doesn't grant much of an advantage to the defender at all. It's far too easy for a toss player to push up a ramp/through a choke without being at a significant advantage vs. another toss (and in general) especially early game - which means that PvP is almost guaranteed to see a lot of 1base play because it is much harder to defend in PvP than it is to attack.
Let me say that again:
It is harder to defend in PvP than it is to attack.
Granted, this is not true in all cases, but on average making a bunch of dudes out of 2-4 gates and attacking early puts almost all the burden on the defender - which is a decidedly un-Starcrafty concept, especially for the early game. This is not some sort of cheese rush or bunker timing - this is making T1 units at the normal time and attacking - and making it so a good sim-base/timing/positioning is not enough to stop the attack. This is pretty stupid and really removes the entire strategy aspect from the MU.
I'd love to see this change. I'm not sure how it could, without highground miss chance or something similar, because it's just so damn hard to stop a P opponent with even 1 more round of production, even with reinforcements on your side, because of how useless a "defensive position" is against them early game. It just limits options so much the match is not particularly dynamic.
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Regarding defender's advantage:
Bring back Shield Battery! =P
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Alright sounds interesting, definitly going to try this one out.
The 2 zealot push sounds great didn't know and thought of it, but I can see it can do some serrious damage to the opponents economy.
What you maybe can do also if you want to expand early is to have gateways block your second choke in like blistering sands and then get your expansion up but this tactic is really simple to counter, the opponent only needs ranged units.
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Some where there was a post about having reduced warp in speeds depending on how many power fields were located at the warp in position. basically, warp in would slow down unless pylons overlapped. (warp prism would stay at 100%). i think this would actually be a great thing to implement because it would make the 4 gate push a little bit easier to deal with, while still being viable. It would also give the defender a larger advantage (i believe it would be like half speed, to 75% speed, to 100% speed meaning you would need 3 power fields overlap each other to get 100% speed.)
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Great thread and cool strat
On August 31 2010 16:04 Ernzoa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 15:46 hellsan631 wrote:
As I explained earlier in my post, several times, the issue with expanding, even if you have map control, is one base can pretty much overun your army. Because you need to spend resources and time not producing units to get more probes to make your expo actually worth it. The time it takes for your expansion to kick created a huge timing attack window that would cripple you unless you had a large advantage (such as wiping out his army, and not losing much of yours, etc)
Also, a strong strategy should NEVER rely on tactics like drops or gas stealing to win. I actually don't think gas stealing is a good idea in anything other then a mind game for pvp, because you don't really need 2 gas heavy early on. You're correct in saying that a 1-basing P should be able to crush your early expo if you only have 2gate or so of production. As I explained in my earlier posts, I am skeptical of this strategy for that reason. And as for PvP tactics, I'm not saying that you should make your strategy reliant on drops or gas steals, but that in general "standard" PvP play usually consists of 2 or 3 gateways, a possible tech building or deviation, or perhaps a 4th gateway. That means that the core of each army early on is quite similar, consisting of mostly gateway units. Because the spectrum of viable builds is somewhat limited to lots of early production, the meta-game calls for both players to stay on 1-base early on. Your intentions of making the match-up less "all-in" by fast expanding run contrary to the meta-game, which means that fast expending is pretty much going "all-in" for the first 10 minutes of the game.
Your understanding if the expressions all-in and metagame is lacking. See http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=130447 for reference
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I am skeptical of this, because mass sentries don't really pay off for themselves time-wise.
They're an insane gas sink. You can use them to contain your opponent in his base while you expand, but you just won't get all that gas back from your 2nd base by the time he's gonna want to break out, and he'll be ahead tech-wise (and tech unit-wise.) Sure, you may have more zealots, but if he has voidrays or colossi you're in trouble, and against blink stalkers you also MAY be in trouble.
If he went dts, and you don't have your observer yet, you're also in trouble. So basically you're in trouble against most builds imo, and 4 warp-gate'ing player will just use a pylon on the edge of his plateau to warp units down there and then he'll try to surround from behind, and through the ramp.
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I have been doing a Strategy like this in PvP for the past 2-3 days, and have had great success with it in the mid-low tier diamond level. I opt to not get my second gas, however, until my 2nd expo is up and running, and I can afford to throw down a few more gateways. by doing that, I can only really afford stalkers and zealots, but they do very well, suprisingluy If you constantly pump units, as you will have the econ to do so, a teching protoss, such as 2-3 gate robo or stargate simply does not have enough stuff to break your front door. I normally will try to fit in a robo somewhere for obs, but after all 4 geysers are up with 2 fully saturated pushing towards a 3rd expo, you can mass produce colossi out of 2 robo with a strong chargelot production out of your production. Push out as you get your 3rd. normally, you can end the game there, but even if you don't, your econ is so much better than your protoss opponent, that you can macro up super fast.
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Any fast collosus would destroy this and I have, actually I wonder if the mass sentry into fast expo with 3 cannons guy read this. 2 collosus with lance beats 4 gate if they can hold their choke until they get the 2nd collosus. Your expo double robo bay will be slow u will not have a collosus out when they decimate your army with their 2 collosus. This will even have a hard time against 4 gate since the opponent will have 600+ more minerals and it's hard to use the defensive advantage of a expo semi choke to makeup for that.
The idea that you can just mass sentry and delay your opponent so long that u can start to get the economic advantage is a stretch especially if you're not just sitting on their main choke using 1 ff each time. ff doesn't last that long and sentry are not strong in fights with their ff used up blocking an advance.
The way in which this could work is if your opponent is getting dt or pheonix which rarely happens. Even against 4 gate you could double cannon and that might be enough to hold your choke with good ff but if he sees cannons he'll probably just expo and then you won't really have an advantage since even though u expoed first your cannons give you weakened aggression.
We saw in the Huk vs KiwiKaki games what pvp is all about, it's about going 4 gate or 3 gate robo for immortal/collosus and then if you are 4 gate attacking to try to prevent him from getting collosus and if you are robo holding your choke and probably stopping collosus tech and pumping immortals if he's on your doorstep.
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I used a slight variation of this today and actually beat a 1 base Colossi player. What worked for me was getting blink stalkers so that I could pick off attacking Colossi.
It shouldn't work on all the maps, but basically I went with fast 2 gates just in case I need to stop early pressure or I suspect a Korean style 4 warpgate all in. If there isn't pressure I take both my gases and throw a cyber down. After that I pump sentries/zealots while a forge builds so I can expand under the safety of forcefields and cannons. At this point I usually have 5-6 sentries, a few cannons, and an expo going up.
The timing worked nicely so that I had multiple warpgates pumping stalkers while I got blink. I think you could even work in hallucination and other tech options off of this. The blink stalkers ended up killing off the Colossi effectively enough seeing as how I had a better economy.
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EPT
