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So i made a post about this before but it barley got any discusion whats so ever 
But anyways So the whole point it to get early speed and +1 attack or armour
i prefer armour vs T and attack for protoss
The build order is 10 OL
13 Gas 13 pool 15 evo chamber
You put three drones on gass ofc
with the first 100 gas u get Mlee upgrade
2nd hundred gas you get speed for lings
Then take off gas and macro up and expo etc ^.^
Thats basically it ofc you get the queen and all that but thats a given anyways Please look at the replays and give some good thought to this strategy u can pretty own any poush from P or T if u surround and flank like you should be doing anyways  LmK what u guys think!
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-144277.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-144280.jpg)
Heres two replays Vs a Terran and Protoss
Also would like to add im a 770 Diamond Zerg ^.^ and this strat does extremley well even if the Evo chamber is scouted
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Yeah I've found getting a quick +1 carapace is very beneficial early.
Not sure if it necessarily needs its own BO, but I like to get it before T2 as well.
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Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits?
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If you're not building a structure till 13, why is OL at 10 instead of 9? Doesn't this just delay building drone 11+?
Melee is first I'm guessing because it gives lings a 20% dps increase, whereas carapace is more expensive and gives at best a 16% dmg decrease (against marines), and is less effective against every other unit (12% against zealots, and, 10% against marauders). Because of overkill, there are some instances where they will behave about the same
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On August 30 2010 13:38 Whole wrote:
Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits?
zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour
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Okay. So. Commentary.
1. OL at 10 is bad, OL should be at 9, as bobartig has stated.
2. Against Protoss, you'll want +1 Carapace, since Zealots with +1 attack can 2-shot Zerglings. That is bad times.
3. How does this handle against, say, 5 Rax Reaper or a Hellion/Marine push on the Terran side. I find that I worry more about Terran early game than Protoss.
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Um, I'm no expert, and I dunno anything about PvZ, but that TvZ replay didn't really showcase defending an early push. He doesn't reach your base until 10 minutes and, frankly, doesn't seem to be that good (never expands etc). Moreover, he doesn't build reapers, which seem to be the real problem.
Now an early +1 carapace vs. Reapers? Having just done some quick math, I believe it increases the number of attack rotations a reaper must take to three (or six actual attacks) which I imagine could be very useful.
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This helps mostly against terran but also is super effective against an early +1 weapon for toss. Its common for toss to rush (or get very early) +1 weapons because it makes lings die in 2 hits instead of three.
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I saw someone use this BO (except OL at 9) today. ZvZ, he ended up extra hatch in base and all in linging me TT
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On August 30 2010 13:53 EyMiller245 wrote:
This helps mostly against terran but also is super effective against an early +1 weapon for toss. Its common for toss to rush (or get very early) +1 weapons because it makes lings die in 2 hits instead of three.
yeah, I would get carapace against protoss too if you scout an early forge
in any case, get carapace when attack finishes if you go for attack first
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yeah, uh, no.
I just played 7 games against my protoss friend, who did 3gate robo.
First of all,
On August 30 2010 13:45 NoXiOuS36th wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 13:38 Whole wrote:
Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits? zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour
No, they don't. If carapace upgrades are higher than Zealot upgrades, it takes 3 hits. This is common knowledge, and it's been said in a hundred VoDs.
There is nothing you can do right now in the game that easily holds off 2gate proxy from Protoss. Nothing. This is one of the few things that's glaring enough to catch Blizzard's attention. To hold off early protoss aggression you need spine crawlers and constant lings.
I have severe, geniune doubts that you've ever won a game against 2gate proxy with your build.
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On August 30 2010 14:23 Zerokaiser wrote:yeah, uh, no. I just played 7 games against my protoss friend, who did 3gate robo. First of all, Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 13:45 NoXiOuS36th wrote:On August 30 2010 13:38 Whole wrote:
Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits? zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour No, they don't. If carapace upgrades are higher than Zealot upgrades, it takes 3 hits. This is common knowledge, and it's been said in a hundred VoDs. There is nothing you can do right now in the game that easily holds off 2gate proxy from Protoss. Nothing. This is one of the few things that's glaring enough to catch Blizzard's attention. To hold off early protoss aggression you need spine crawlers and constant lings. I have severe, geniune doubts that you've ever won a game against 2gate proxy with your build.
What? You get a Roach Warren against 2 gate pressure, and yes 0/0 zealots 3 shot Zerglings with +1 armor or not.
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The +1 armor for lings is used to counter tosses that get a fast +1 weapon upgrade. +1 Zealots crushes zerglings without +1 armor at a ridiculous rate. As long as you keep up in upgrades you're fine but when toss gets 1 more +weapon than you have +armor then your lings are dead meat.
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On August 30 2010 14:23 Zerokaiser wrote:yeah, uh, no. I just played 7 games against my protoss friend, who did 3gate robo. First of all, Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 13:45 NoXiOuS36th wrote:On August 30 2010 13:38 Whole wrote:
Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits? zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour No, they don't. If carapace upgrades are higher than Zealot upgrades, it takes 3 hits. This is common knowledge, and it's been said in a hundred VoDs. There is nothing you can do right now in the game that easily holds off 2gate proxy from Protoss. Nothing. This is one of the few things that's glaring enough to catch Blizzard's attention. To hold off early protoss aggression you need spine crawlers and constant lings. I have severe, geniune doubts that you've ever won a game against 2gate proxy with your build.
2 gate proxy is beatable, it's not easy but if you micro correctly with good building placement then you should be able to scout it. obviously you have to recognize it first.
he stated that his build is for beating common strats like 4gate or 5 rax reaper, early game aggressive strategies, not proxy 2 gate. that's cheese
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So does the +1 damage matter all that much? Reapers and Marines die in only one less hit, Marauders die in 7 less hits (from 32), and Zealots die in 6 less hits (from 35)... so is it really all that worthwhile? It could be very nice and handy, but there aren't any huge number gaps breached like +1 Zealots and there aren't enough units to make a huge effect. I'd have to say that a faster Lair trumps the minor advantage given by this easily. Is there something I'm missing?
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Its not when carapace is higher than protoss wep upgrade that it take 3 hits, its when they are even. When the game starts and there have been no upgrades it takes 3 hits for a zealot to kill a zergling
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Yep, evo is quite cheap, so this makes sense. Also, keep in mind that the calculation should not only include the lings, but also the queen which comes next (or even roaches you switch to). Then it helps if you have upgraded melee for the lings, even when it doesn't change the number of hits they need to kill a unit.
On August 30 2010 13:45 NoXiOuS36th wrote:
zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour On August 30 2010 14:23 Zerokaiser wrote:
No, they don't. If carapace upgrades are higher than Zealot upgrades, it takes 3 hits. You say "No", and then you say the same thing he said?
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On August 30 2010 14:23 Zerokaiser wrote:yeah, uh, no. I just played 7 games against my protoss friend, who did 3gate robo. First of all, Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 13:45 NoXiOuS36th wrote:On August 30 2010 13:38 Whole wrote:
Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits? zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour No, they don't. If carapace upgrades are higher than Zealot upgrades, it takes 3 hits. This is common knowledge, and it's been said in a hundred VoDs. There is nothing you can do right now in the game that easily holds off 2gate proxy from Protoss. Nothing. This is one of the few things that's glaring enough to catch Blizzard's attention. To hold off early protoss aggression you need spine crawlers and constant lings. I have severe, geniune doubts that you've ever won a game against 2gate proxy with your build.
+1 Cara is useful if P goes early forge (+1) attack so your lings don't die in TWO hits. Otherwise +1 melee is cheaper and makes more sense.
As far as proxy 2 gate... it's a joke! The only time I might lose to it is if I never scout it until like 4+ zealots - which is rare.
I have games against a few #1 Diamond Toss that tried to proxy me (mostly on Scrap Station...) 1 spine + lings until roaches and you're pretty safe! The fact that a guy is constantly pumping zealots = he's not powering probes. If he skimps on zlots for the probes you'll most likely kill his zeals and take out the gates... from there it's pretty downhill for protoss...
A few things I'd like to ask about the BO. Does your +1 cara finish before reapers get in your base? It also delays speed... so it means reapers can get a lot of free lings while +1/speed are researching.
It also puts you in danger against 4 gate since your lair (hydras) are delayed by a 100 gas. Sentry/zealot/stalker will still own lings even with +1 attack or cara... to mass enough lings you kind of have to skimp on your econ... -.-
PS: I haven't seen the replays.
PSS: I usually get +1 ranged while getting lair so by the time hydra den is done and hydras are out I have +1 ready. Makes hydra THAT much stronger against gateway units. Benefits roaches as well. After stopping first push you can add another gate and research cara.
A lot of times I skip ling speed for faster lair anyway... lings are not that great vs toss in a lot of cases.
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Reading comprehension is escaping me right now.
Anyways, +1 ground weapons for protoss are out early and often
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On August 30 2010 15:05 Zerokaiser wrote:
Reading comprehension is escaping me right now.
Anyways, +1 ground weapons for protoss are out early and often
If toss doesn't open with Forge/Gate wall they usually don't get forge for quite a while. In any case if they get Forge after 2 gate or gate/cyber you don't need to rush for 15 evo... you might as well get evo when lair starts and have +1 range by the time you have hydras...
If they go forge first you'll have a lot of +1 lings with no purpose since toss will either turtle until colossi or do some stargate gayness...
I find 13(14) pool 15(16) hatch a lot more usefull vs P.
You get double gas when you're pretty saturated and defend any early push with crawlers/slow lings. First 100 gas - Lair and +1 range. Then hydras while backteching to roaches. If he goes robo - spire. If he goes HT - more roach/hydra.
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Uhh, maybe try not so pretentious topic names.
f.e. ''The anser for..'' makes me cringe (oh wait you are diamond, nevermind then)
to add armour vs carapace discussion besides obvious bonus survivability against zealots carapace helps roaches immensely, melee attack does not
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I agree. Maybe would consider double gasing to get the ups sooner. + i love fast lair tech. I like to rely on alot of speedlings for quiet a while in TvZ. I can deal with reapers pretty easily as I scout for it every game and position myself accordingly. Reapers are hard to do right, but when they are done right jesus they're shitty. Big commitment tho. If you take em down its gg right there.
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On August 30 2010 15:05 Darkn3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 14:23 Zerokaiser wrote:yeah, uh, no. I just played 7 games against my protoss friend, who did 3gate robo. First of all, On August 30 2010 13:45 NoXiOuS36th wrote:On August 30 2010 13:38 Whole wrote:
Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits? zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour No, they don't. If carapace upgrades are higher than Zealot upgrades, it takes 3 hits. This is common knowledge, and it's been said in a hundred VoDs. There is nothing you can do right now in the game that easily holds off 2gate proxy from Protoss. Nothing. This is one of the few things that's glaring enough to catch Blizzard's attention. To hold off early protoss aggression you need spine crawlers and constant lings. I have severe, geniune doubts that you've ever won a game against 2gate proxy with your build. +1 Cara is useful if P goes early forge (+1) attack so your lings don't die in TWO hits. Otherwise +1 melee is cheaper and makes more sense. As far as proxy 2 gate... it's a joke! The only time I might lose to it is if I never scout it until like 4+ zealots - which is rare. I have games against a few #1 Diamond Toss that tried to proxy me (mostly on Scrap Station...) 1 spine + lings until roaches and you're pretty safe! The fact that a guy is constantly pumping zealots = he's not powering probes. If he skimps on zlots for the probes you'll most likely kill his zeals and take out the gates... from there it's pretty downhill for protoss... A few things I'd like to ask about the BO. Does your +1 cara finish before reapers get in your base? It also delays speed... so it means reapers can get a lot of free lings while +1/speed are researching. It also puts you in danger against 4 gate since your lair (hydras) are delayed by a 100 gas. Sentry/zealot/stalker will still own lings even with +1 attack or cara... to mass enough lings you kind of have to skimp on your econ... -.- PS: I haven't seen the replays. PSS: I usually get +1 ranged while getting lair so by the time hydra den is done and hydras are out I have +1 ready. Makes hydra THAT much stronger against gateway units. Benefits roaches as well. After stopping first push you can add another gate and research cara. A lot of times I skip ling speed for faster lair anyway... lings are not that great vs toss in a lot of cases.
I never have encountered the 5 rax reaper with this build yet but i would imagine the +1 comes out before a hit I will gladly test this is theres a terran willing? i usually do this for Protoss as stated in the Op
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I will never get an early carapace upgrade against any race. If I get that it will be in the midgame.
Early +1 attack is great against protoss though. It makes stalkers a joke and unless the opponent has +1 attack on his ground forces, your lings will actually take less damage due to the opponents units falling faster.
Currently Im doing great against 4 gate pushes. However Im still having troubles with fast expansion builds, mainly 2gate FE into a million gateways. I'll have to play more economical when that is scouted.
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I usulaly do this, but mostly beacuse I put an evo chamber in front of 2 spines and have zerglings as well. good placement of spines/evo chamber and the zealots can sometimes barely hit the spines. this works on maps like meta where ramp/expo in good locations
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I think carapace is usually better because it benefits all your ground units. Then if you switch to roaches a little later or hydras later they'll already be +1 armor.
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1st 100gas on weapons/carapace and still 770 diamond ? that is honestly impressive.
can be an option vsP but against T it is suicide.
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-144485.jpg)
Here is a replay vs a 3 rax repaer he decided to switch to reactors in his last 2 rax
I lost here due to it was my first game and i didnt multi task to well lol
but i can imagine 5 rrax reaper wouldnt pose much more of a threat to what i had on the field already anyways somone who can macro and micro much better than me would be able to pull this off i believe after watching the rep if i got my blings out quicker i woulda obliterated his push and won the game with an effective counter Thoughts?
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i'll definitely be testing this. fast armor vs reapers is pretty effective in theory - lings take 3 instead of 2 shots, and roaches take 4/shot instead of 6/shot...
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No more opinions ?
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EPT
