|
So i made a post about this before but it barley got any discusion whats so ever 
But anyways So the whole point it to get early speed and +1 attack or armour
i prefer armour vs T and attack for protoss
The build order is 10 OL
13 Gas 13 pool 15 evo chamber
You put three drones on gass ofc
with the first 100 gas u get Mlee upgrade
2nd hundred gas you get speed for lings
Then take off gas and macro up and expo etc ^.^
Thats basically it ofc you get the queen and all that but thats a given anyways Please look at the replays and give some good thought to this strategy u can pretty own any poush from P or T if u surround and flank like you should be doing anyways  LmK what u guys think!
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-144277.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-144280.jpg)
Heres two replays Vs a Terran and Protoss
Also would like to add im a 770 Diamond Zerg ^.^ and this strat does extremley well even if the Evo chamber is scouted
|
Yeah I've found getting a quick +1 carapace is very beneficial early.
Not sure if it necessarily needs its own BO, but I like to get it before T2 as well.
|
Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits?
|
If you're not building a structure till 13, why is OL at 10 instead of 9? Doesn't this just delay building drone 11+?
Melee is first I'm guessing because it gives lings a 20% dps increase, whereas carapace is more expensive and gives at best a 16% dmg decrease (against marines), and is less effective against every other unit (12% against zealots, and, 10% against marauders). Because of overkill, there are some instances where they will behave about the same
|
On August 30 2010 13:38 Whole wrote:
Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits?
zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour
|
Okay. So. Commentary.
1. OL at 10 is bad, OL should be at 9, as bobartig has stated.
2. Against Protoss, you'll want +1 Carapace, since Zealots with +1 attack can 2-shot Zerglings. That is bad times.
3. How does this handle against, say, 5 Rax Reaper or a Hellion/Marine push on the Terran side. I find that I worry more about Terran early game than Protoss.
|
Um, I'm no expert, and I dunno anything about PvZ, but that TvZ replay didn't really showcase defending an early push. He doesn't reach your base until 10 minutes and, frankly, doesn't seem to be that good (never expands etc). Moreover, he doesn't build reapers, which seem to be the real problem.
Now an early +1 carapace vs. Reapers? Having just done some quick math, I believe it increases the number of attack rotations a reaper must take to three (or six actual attacks) which I imagine could be very useful.
|
This helps mostly against terran but also is super effective against an early +1 weapon for toss. Its common for toss to rush (or get very early) +1 weapons because it makes lings die in 2 hits instead of three.
|
I saw someone use this BO (except OL at 9) today. ZvZ, he ended up extra hatch in base and all in linging me TT
|
On August 30 2010 13:53 EyMiller245 wrote:
This helps mostly against terran but also is super effective against an early +1 weapon for toss. Its common for toss to rush (or get very early) +1 weapons because it makes lings die in 2 hits instead of three.
yeah, I would get carapace against protoss too if you scout an early forge
in any case, get carapace when attack finishes if you go for attack first
|
yeah, uh, no.
I just played 7 games against my protoss friend, who did 3gate robo.
First of all,
On August 30 2010 13:45 NoXiOuS36th wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 13:38 Whole wrote:
Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits? zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour
No, they don't. If carapace upgrades are higher than Zealot upgrades, it takes 3 hits. This is common knowledge, and it's been said in a hundred VoDs.
There is nothing you can do right now in the game that easily holds off 2gate proxy from Protoss. Nothing. This is one of the few things that's glaring enough to catch Blizzard's attention. To hold off early protoss aggression you need spine crawlers and constant lings.
I have severe, geniune doubts that you've ever won a game against 2gate proxy with your build.
|
On August 30 2010 14:23 Zerokaiser wrote:yeah, uh, no. I just played 7 games against my protoss friend, who did 3gate robo. First of all, Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 13:45 NoXiOuS36th wrote:On August 30 2010 13:38 Whole wrote:
Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits? zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour No, they don't. If carapace upgrades are higher than Zealot upgrades, it takes 3 hits. This is common knowledge, and it's been said in a hundred VoDs. There is nothing you can do right now in the game that easily holds off 2gate proxy from Protoss. Nothing. This is one of the few things that's glaring enough to catch Blizzard's attention. To hold off early protoss aggression you need spine crawlers and constant lings. I have severe, geniune doubts that you've ever won a game against 2gate proxy with your build.
What? You get a Roach Warren against 2 gate pressure, and yes 0/0 zealots 3 shot Zerglings with +1 armor or not.
|
The +1 armor for lings is used to counter tosses that get a fast +1 weapon upgrade. +1 Zealots crushes zerglings without +1 armor at a ridiculous rate. As long as you keep up in upgrades you're fine but when toss gets 1 more +weapon than you have +armor then your lings are dead meat.
|
On August 30 2010 14:23 Zerokaiser wrote:yeah, uh, no. I just played 7 games against my protoss friend, who did 3gate robo. First of all, Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 13:45 NoXiOuS36th wrote:On August 30 2010 13:38 Whole wrote:
Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits? zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour No, they don't. If carapace upgrades are higher than Zealot upgrades, it takes 3 hits. This is common knowledge, and it's been said in a hundred VoDs. There is nothing you can do right now in the game that easily holds off 2gate proxy from Protoss. Nothing. This is one of the few things that's glaring enough to catch Blizzard's attention. To hold off early protoss aggression you need spine crawlers and constant lings. I have severe, geniune doubts that you've ever won a game against 2gate proxy with your build.
2 gate proxy is beatable, it's not easy but if you micro correctly with good building placement then you should be able to scout it. obviously you have to recognize it first.
he stated that his build is for beating common strats like 4gate or 5 rax reaper, early game aggressive strategies, not proxy 2 gate. that's cheese
|
So does the +1 damage matter all that much? Reapers and Marines die in only one less hit, Marauders die in 7 less hits (from 32), and Zealots die in 6 less hits (from 35)... so is it really all that worthwhile? It could be very nice and handy, but there aren't any huge number gaps breached like +1 Zealots and there aren't enough units to make a huge effect. I'd have to say that a faster Lair trumps the minor advantage given by this easily. Is there something I'm missing?
|
Its not when carapace is higher than protoss wep upgrade that it take 3 hits, its when they are even. When the game starts and there have been no upgrades it takes 3 hits for a zealot to kill a zergling
|
Yep, evo is quite cheap, so this makes sense. Also, keep in mind that the calculation should not only include the lings, but also the queen which comes next (or even roaches you switch to). Then it helps if you have upgraded melee for the lings, even when it doesn't change the number of hits they need to kill a unit.
On August 30 2010 13:45 NoXiOuS36th wrote:
zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour On August 30 2010 14:23 Zerokaiser wrote:
No, they don't. If carapace upgrades are higher than Zealot upgrades, it takes 3 hits. You say "No", and then you say the same thing he said?
|
On August 30 2010 14:23 Zerokaiser wrote:yeah, uh, no. I just played 7 games against my protoss friend, who did 3gate robo. First of all, Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 13:45 NoXiOuS36th wrote:On August 30 2010 13:38 Whole wrote:
Wouldn't the +1 Armor be better for the Zerglings can soak more hits? zeals still kill zerglins in 3 hits with the +1 armour No, they don't. If carapace upgrades are higher than Zealot upgrades, it takes 3 hits. This is common knowledge, and it's been said in a hundred VoDs. There is nothing you can do right now in the game that easily holds off 2gate proxy from Protoss. Nothing. This is one of the few things that's glaring enough to catch Blizzard's attention. To hold off early protoss aggression you need spine crawlers and constant lings. I have severe, geniune doubts that you've ever won a game against 2gate proxy with your build.
+1 Cara is useful if P goes early forge (+1) attack so your lings don't die in TWO hits. Otherwise +1 melee is cheaper and makes more sense.
As far as proxy 2 gate... it's a joke! The only time I might lose to it is if I never scout it until like 4+ zealots - which is rare.
I have games against a few #1 Diamond Toss that tried to proxy me (mostly on Scrap Station...) 1 spine + lings until roaches and you're pretty safe! The fact that a guy is constantly pumping zealots = he's not powering probes. If he skimps on zlots for the probes you'll most likely kill his zeals and take out the gates... from there it's pretty downhill for protoss...
A few things I'd like to ask about the BO. Does your +1 cara finish before reapers get in your base? It also delays speed... so it means reapers can get a lot of free lings while +1/speed are researching.
It also puts you in danger against 4 gate since your lair (hydras) are delayed by a 100 gas. Sentry/zealot/stalker will still own lings even with +1 attack or cara... to mass enough lings you kind of have to skimp on your econ... -.-
PS: I haven't seen the replays.
PSS: I usually get +1 ranged while getting lair so by the time hydra den is done and hydras are out I have +1 ready. Makes hydra THAT much stronger against gateway units. Benefits roaches as well. After stopping first push you can add another gate and research cara.
A lot of times I skip ling speed for faster lair anyway... lings are not that great vs toss in a lot of cases.
|
Reading comprehension is escaping me right now.
Anyways, +1 ground weapons for protoss are out early and often
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
