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On August 21 2010 02:04 bluesoup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:15 VanGarde wrote:
with 200 supply tank/viking and just sits on their ass, forcing you to take the entire map and waiting for them to mine out because it is too big of a risk to try and break their fortification. Thus you end up having to spend 30 minutes on games you already won. That was true in SC1, not so much in SC2. If you get into such situation, (i.e. won the game, out-expanded him, etc...) why not simply break him. You'll be surprised how much it is easier in SC2. No matter how many tanks he has on the high-ground, if he lost his vikings, he can't stop you from breaking into his base, simply because you will out-range his might tanks. He will run out very soon of two things: gas and scan. There is little risk of counter push (we are talking t/v), even if he gets a good scan off, killing more of your tanks, without air dominance he can't just unsiege and roll you. He is going nowhere... Rally your factories outside of his base to replenish when you loose few tanks because he will scan (only after tanking few hits on his tanks) while you fly in-out with your vikings (both Thors and turrets don't do enough damage to stop you from gaining vision to fire shot off) and just close in with your tanks. Also, you will have more OC and more scan than him if your vikings are getting low on health. TvT aggression (albeit inch by inch) pays off in SC2 because aggressor is usually the fist one who fires the shots (i.e. scans), and contains/defensive positions are weak without air-cover. Exception being xel'naga camping, but that is not the case you describe. On two bases (one being his main) he simply does not have the gas to pump both tanks and vikings to match your production (by that time, mostly tanks and just few vikings to replenish) if you force the attrition. His only hope is to switch to marauders, like Shaithis said. You can break him in like 2-3 minutes by inching forward. When you start hitting his factories/ports, or they just run out of tanks, they usually leave, pronto. And vikings take down flying buildings soo fast  . It will take some time, but definitely not the 30minutes several of you mentioned, to just break him to pieces.
It is insanely risky to just try to break a fortified terran in TvT because of the production times involved. A defensive terran army is very superior and unless you have something like battlecruisers AND solid air superiority going in for a quick break can easily backfire if you loose your army.
I don't take that risk in TvT anymore, if another terran fortifies himself even though he is in a clear economic disadvantage I will make sure to double his number of bases AND throw up a fuckton of raxes before I try to break him, that way I can pretend I am zerg and replentish my entire army in no time. Going in for a bust unless you are 100% sure that you are going to win it is a very good way of loosing games that you had already won.
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On August 20 2010 22:47 bluesoup wrote:
With lots of terrans these days on the ladder, why is it so i hear that people hate TvT. Actually it is my favorite match-up (maybe because I do reasonably well) going tank/viking. And I rarely have to fight tank/viking vs tank/viking any more...
I mean, is it that people see Morrow or other high level terrans do bio builds TvT and succeed and when they try it with mid diamond skills they just die to tank/viking ? I am mid diamond (i.e. mediocre) player and I get a nice smile when I see more than one rax. I know I won...
Sure, I have lost with tank/viking vs bio, marauders have so much mobility, but the opponent was way better and I would have lost whatever he decided to use.
Reapers? If i scout tech lab i make tech lab on my rax after 2 rines, build one marauder and than continue with using the tech lab for the factory. One marauder and subsequent tanks just stop it dead if it is not proxy 7rax or something...
Early bio push before siege-mode? It is so easy to scout... One bunker at choke stops it (and I don't wall-in TvT). Returnable 100min is not really issue that can slow down tank/viking as it is gas heavy...
Banshees? That's what vikings are for among other things. Few well placed turrets with viking support and banshees are shut down.
Can they stop me from expanding? On most maps no. Siege tanks with few rines (i mean 4-5 few) for shield will kill his bio since they a-moved and and marauders stopped to hit the rines...
Then they will try to drop? Nope. By the time he has 3-4 medivacs to do effective drop, I will have 6-7 vikings plus few key turrets and patrol drop routes since I don't have to use them for vision or vs. his vikings.
So they added thors? Just fly my vikings over them when they try to engage and thors will happily shoot at the vikings (doing small damage) while my tanks pound them....
I can freely use my CC energy to scan, and see what he is up to since I will be constantly gas blocked but as my minerals reach 400, i just expand and expand. Gas piling up? Add factories, etc...
Sneak an expo while not having air superiority?... Difficult. Vikings fly and will do massive damage while he ground moves his bio to save it...
Mid-game, they will stim, run-in and die to mass tanks...
And than they rage-quit, or say TvT is boring, or whatever...
I don't get it... Why so much hate to strategy that is obviously good and can be played with lesser skill. You need to substantially out-skill your opponent to win with bio or thors vs tank/viking...
you actually LIKE doing the same exact strategy over and over again and being confined to only a few viable options??? Most people find that bland and boring. People complain about ZvZ for the same reason..
I mean if you think doing the same exact thing over and over again is fun then more power to you, but most people like to have a little variety in their matchups..
You seem to like the matchup because its so easy to win with Tank/Viking and while that's true, that does not make it a good or fun matchup.. quite the opposite really... people aren't complaining that it's hard to win TvT, they are complaining because of how little options there are.. yes we all already know how effective Tank/Viking is in TvT that's not the argument...
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I recently started experimenting with ravens in TvT. I think they have potential for breaking t/v.
Throwing down a turret next to one of his tanks usually results in self-inflicted death. And turrets are pretty cheap. PDD helps a shit ton in viking vs viking battles, and heat-seeker missile can be used pretty well on any sort of clumps. I need to practice more, for sure, but I have a feeling that once people get comfortable, soon it will be raven/viking/tank 
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On August 21 2010 02:58 stk01001 wrote:
you actually LIKE doing the same exact strategy over and over again and being confined to only a few viable options??? Most people find that bland and boring. People complain about ZvZ for the same reason..
Actually i like to play the game with a chance to win. I learned few things like when i tried to go bio vs t/v. Bar few exceptions, t/v works find for me and it is fun. Maybe because other people are trying (mostly unsuccessful) different things to beat it, i have varied games and fun. And even when they go t/v, it is a skill game, fun chasing with vikings and outsmarting the other guy who will get expo sooner and who will engage with temporary superior numbers. It is quite unforgiving, i.e. if you slip, it is quite a steep slope getting back. Yet, it is type of game i like. There is no racial imbalance to complain when you loose, only your choices in the game.
But than again I have no fun in 5min games (i.e. protoss proxy gateways, etc...), whether i win or loose.
For additional variety, i have the other match-ups and 2v2 games, where, well you have to use other strategies... So yes, 5 TvT games in a row is not really fun, but after few mixed match-ups, i like to relax and let the other guy try the Terran crap on me...
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On August 21 2010 02:25 DrainX wrote:...
Soon he realizes he has 20 vikings that can't do shit while his low tank count gets raped by marauders...
Or you realize you have to split your forces over all your expansions because he is picking off SCVs with landed vikings whenever a expansion is slightly unprotected.
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I did not play BW but from watching games on youtube I can see that TvT is all about vultures, tanks and goliath. Did people complain that TvT in BW was boring too? If they did not then what was the difference that makes TvT in SC2 boring?
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you should not be able to expand if you invested in a lot of vikings... your opponent should have more tanks and a lot of marauders.
all he has to do is take expo's and bait the vikings to land, then kill them all, and then you have a small number of tanks. he medivac drops his marauders on your tanks. gg?
losing an expo doesn't mean anything when he can safely expand again, knowing that he has tanks , turrets and marauders camped at your expo's so you're stuck on one base.
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I find that tank viking is good unless the other player is going mass marauder, so when I scout that I end up going for a banshee opening, but tank viking will beat any banshee opening... Feels a bit too RPS for me, as in tank viking beats banshee opening, which beats mass marauder, which beats tank viking and so on.
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maybe people actually like having fun with the game and not do some strategy that is really boring and causes stalemates or whatever i personally dislike tvt because even if you get an advantage somehow its gets to be difficult pushing into siege tanks sieged with any other ground unit
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TvT is the best mirror imo. Tank/viking is boring and frustrating for sure, but when you don't play against someone using this combo (and noone likes this so this is very rare to face it) it's one of the best MU with the massive rauder/tanks/medivacs army with drop everywhere to bypass tank lines.
Moreover there are a lot of viable opening, this is the only mu where you can do pretty much everything you want and it can work.
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1 1 1 into 4 rax rauder when expand. It owns.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
To answer the OP, it's because they mindlessly copy builds and don't think about how to counter popular TvT builds. Going pure tank/viking is pretty easy to exploit in the mid game and I usually don't lose to it.
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Lately I have had some success mixing in Banshees at the expense of tanks in the tank/viking mix, especially against T who seem to like going marauder heavy lately. Transitions well into from a banshee opening for a bit of harass, to put your opponent on the defensive, and your army is much more mobile.
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i hate it bcz i can't pull off TLO or morrow or other gosuplayers game style against turtle terran with tanks, turrets, and then add vikings and expand slowly... it's so gay...
But when they mess up i drop a tank with some stuff at their base to slow them down... but anyway it's gay.
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In early game, tanks/viking is not the only viable strategy. It becomes only when you hit about 5-6 tanks. If you want to spice up the late game and make it more interesting try using nukes, they are lots of fun xD.
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TvT is awful. I always have the wrong units.
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I quit a TvT half way because I had to take a shit ... fucking 30 minutes of battling over each pixel ...
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it's because on ladder its easy to win in under 10 min on TvZ or TvP with 1a bioball. TvT you usually have to play better and longer.
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T v T is one of the best match ups in the game. People only hate it because it's also the most difficult match up in the game
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Simple answer?
Most people hate TvT because vikings have too much range.
Cut them down to 7 range where turrets can come into play, and now you can make all kinds of moves that open up.
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EPT
