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With lots of terrans these days on the ladder, why is it so i hear that people hate TvT. Actually it is my favorite match-up (maybe because I do reasonably well) going tank/viking. And I rarely have to fight tank/viking vs tank/viking any more...
I mean, is it that people see Morrow or other high level terrans do bio builds TvT and succeed and when they try it with mid diamond skills they just die to tank/viking ? I am mid diamond (i.e. mediocre) player and I get a nice smile when I see more than one rax. I know I won...
Sure, I have lost with tank/viking vs bio, marauders have so much mobility, but the opponent was way better and I would have lost whatever he decided to use.
Reapers? If i scout tech lab i make tech lab on my rax after 2 rines, build one marauder and than continue with using the tech lab for the factory. One marauder and subsequent tanks just stop it dead if it is not proxy 7rax or something...
Early bio push before siege-mode? It is so easy to scout... One bunker at choke stops it (and I don't wall-in TvT). Returnable 100min is not really issue that can slow down tank/viking as it is gas heavy...
Banshees? That's what vikings are for among other things. Few well placed turrets with viking support and banshees are shut down.
Can they stop me from expanding? On most maps no. Siege tanks with few rines (i mean 4-5 few) for shield will kill his bio since they a-moved and and marauders stopped to hit the rines...
Then they will try to drop? Nope. By the time he has 3-4 medivacs to do effective drop, I will have 6-7 vikings plus few key turrets and patrol drop routes since I don't have to use them for vision or vs. his vikings.
So they added thors? Just fly my vikings over them when they try to engage and thors will happily shoot at the vikings (doing small damage) while my tanks pound them....
I can freely use my CC energy to scan, and see what he is up to since I will be constantly gas blocked but as my minerals reach 400, i just expand and expand. Gas piling up? Add factories, etc...
Sneak an expo while not having air superiority?... Difficult. Vikings fly and will do massive damage while he ground moves his bio to save it...
Mid-game, they will stim, run-in and die to mass tanks...
And than they rage-quit, or say TvT is boring, or whatever...
I don't get it... Why so much hate to strategy that is obviously good and can be played with lesser skill. You need to substantially out-skill your opponent to win with bio or thors vs tank/viking...
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It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player.
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On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player.
Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT...
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On August 20 2010 23:01 bluesoup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player. Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT...
Actually I figured out a way to beat it with a marauder/thor FE build, and others have had success with early marauder rushes. It's also possible to beat it with proxy raxes, but you have to be more tricky with those at diamond level whereas at lower levels you can often just proxy straight up and win.
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On August 20 2010 23:08 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:01 bluesoup wrote:On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player. Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT... Actually I figured out a way to beat it with a marauder/thor FE build, and others have had success with early marauder rushes. It's also possible to beat it with proxy raxes, but you have to be more tricky with those at diamond level whereas at lower levels you can often just proxy straight up and win.
I don't want to use cheesy builds to win against tank/viking, i want there to be natural variety in strategies that have equal chances of winning.
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im not sure in SC2 but in BW its boring cause its like a game of chess. you wait for the first player to have vision on the tanks within range or drop at those tanks while they duke it out on other spots of the map using wraiths. its basically who-has-the-better-micro game but ide rather go watch tvt than watch pvp. >.<
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On August 20 2010 23:12 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:08 SugarBear wrote:On August 20 2010 23:01 bluesoup wrote:On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player. Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT... Actually I figured out a way to beat it with a marauder/thor FE build, and others have had success with early marauder rushes. It's also possible to beat it with proxy raxes, but you have to be more tricky with those at diamond level whereas at lower levels you can often just proxy straight up and win. I don't want to use cheesy builds to win against tank/viking, i want there to be natural variety in strategies that have equal chances of winning.
Marauder/thor FE is far from cheesy. IMO tank/viking IS cheese.
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It's probably the most versatile mirror match out there, but nobody likes being on the business end of Terran crap, not even Terrans.
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Well, the problem with FE build against t/v is that if one if his vikings scouts that you are building CC instead of more marauders (which are mineral heavy), he can just push you with 3 tanks and few rines and than you are contained to one base. On most maps, rax can be used as spotter (delaying vikings) while tanks are positioned to pound your nat CC. Or, you will loose so much units braking it while he has already safely expanded... Good luck with it vs equal skill players...
Other option for t/v players is to double expand (most 4p maps) since if u did FE, u can't break him early game...
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Basically I dont like tvt for alot of the reason's people mention. Generally Long 45 minute games invovling setting up tank lines with a MILLION vikings edging forward providing vision for the tanks to snipe eachother. It just gets so annoying edging across the map 10 pixels at a time. Ultimately it doesnt lead to an exciting game. Sure there are cheeze and early game pushes which can defeat the standard play. But its risky. If you go to push with the rauders and they get shelled to death by 2-3 tanks what good did it do?
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On August 20 2010 23:14 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:12 ChickenLips wrote:
I don't want to use cheesy builds to win against tank/viking, i want there to be natural variety in strategies that have equal chances of winning. Marauder/thor FE is far from cheesy. IMO tank/viking IS cheese.
i think he's referring to the proxy rax as cheese, not marauder/thor. and how the hell is tank viking cheese?
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On August 20 2010 23:18 bluesoup wrote:
Well, the problem with FE build against t/v is that if one if his vikings scouts that you are building CC instead of more marauders (which are mineral heavy), he can just push you with 3 tanks and few rines and than you are contained to one base. On most maps, rax can be used as spotter (delaying vikings) while tanks are positioned to pound your nat CC. Or, you will loose so much units braking it while he has already safely expanded... Good luck with it vs equal skill players...
Other option for t/v players is to double expand (most 4p maps) since if u did FE, u can't break him early game...
By the time he gets out 3 tanks and siege tech and pushes to my base I will have a thor and plenty of marauders to deal with his push. Bunkers too if needed. Then I push with thors and HE is the one who ends up contained.
The good thing about playing t/v players is they are never equally skilled. It just doesn't take enough skill to play t/v so you have a lot of high level players who are very poor but the build is so strong they win anyway.
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On August 20 2010 23:22 SugarBear wrote:
By the time he gets out 3 tanks and siege tech and pushes to my base I will have a thor and plenty of marauders to deal with his push. Bunkers too if needed. Then I push with thors and HE is the one who ends up contained.
The good thing about playing t/v players is they are never equally skilled. It just doesn't take enough skill to play t/v so you have a lot of high level players who are very poor but the build is so strong they win anyway.
Siege-mode comes with the second tank so by the time I have 3 tanks and siege mode I can decide what to do. You can't have CC, Thor, stim, and enough marauders to stop it... But than again this is theory-crafting....
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On August 20 2010 23:32 bluesoup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:22 SugarBear wrote:
By the time he gets out 3 tanks and siege tech and pushes to my base I will have a thor and plenty of marauders to deal with his push. Bunkers too if needed. Then I push with thors and HE is the one who ends up contained.
The good thing about playing t/v players is they are never equally skilled. It just doesn't take enough skill to play t/v so you have a lot of high level players who are very poor but the build is so strong they win anyway. Siege-mode comes with the second tank so by the time I have 3 tanks and siege mode I can decide what to do. You can't have CC, Thor, stim, and enough marauders to stop it... But than again this is theory-crafting....
It's actually not theorycrafting since I've had success with that build before. I will have to finish my brutal campaign tonight, spend a couple nights smoothing out the build in yabot, and gathering a few replays then post back here.
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On August 20 2010 23:19 Meldrath wrote:
Basically I dont like tvt for alot of the reason's people mention. Generally Long 45 minute games invovling setting up tank lines with a MILLION vikings edging forward providing vision for the tanks to snipe eachother. It just gets so annoying edging across the map 10 pixels at a time. Ultimately it doesnt lead to an exciting game. Sure there are cheeze and early game pushes which can defeat the standard play. But its risky. If you go to push with the rauders and they get shelled to death by 2-3 tanks what good did it do?
pretty much sums it up - its boring as all fuck if its tv vs tv
im trying to end most of my games pretty fast by either going 3rax 50 food push or marine/hellion push with first banshee (ala morrow v tlo games earlier)
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On August 20 2010 23:17 Cloak wrote:
It's probably the most versatile mirror match out there, but nobody likes being on the business end of Terran crap, not even Terrans.
Depends on your definition of what is Terran crap... Me, I just love when they throw some of that crap at safe build and get nothing out of it 
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On August 20 2010 23:14 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:12 ChickenLips wrote:On August 20 2010 23:08 SugarBear wrote:On August 20 2010 23:01 bluesoup wrote:On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player. Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT... Actually I figured out a way to beat it with a marauder/thor FE build, and others have had success with early marauder rushes. It's also possible to beat it with proxy raxes, but you have to be more tricky with those at diamond level whereas at lower levels you can often just proxy straight up and win. I don't want to use cheesy builds to win against tank/viking, i want there to be natural variety in strategies that have equal chances of winning. Marauder/thor FE is far from cheesy. IMO tank/viking IS cheese.
Someone needs to pay a visit to Liquipedia...
On August 20 2010 23:08 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:01 bluesoup wrote:On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player. Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT... Actually I figured out a way to beat it with a marauder/thor FE build, and others have had success with early marauder rushes. It's also possible to beat it with proxy raxes, but you have to be more tricky with those at diamond level whereas at lower levels you can often just proxy straight up and win.
Please do share your fascinating strategy, although I don't expect to be impressed given the above comment.
On August 20 2010 23:41 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:32 bluesoup wrote:On August 20 2010 23:22 SugarBear wrote:
By the time he gets out 3 tanks and siege tech and pushes to my base I will have a thor and plenty of marauders to deal with his push. Bunkers too if needed. Then I push with thors and HE is the one who ends up contained.
The good thing about playing t/v players is they are never equally skilled. It just doesn't take enough skill to play t/v so you have a lot of high level players who are very poor but the build is so strong they win anyway. Siege-mode comes with the second tank so by the time I have 3 tanks and siege mode I can decide what to do. You can't have CC, Thor, stim, and enough marauders to stop it... But than again this is theory-crafting.... It's actually not theorycrafting since I've had success with that build before. I will have to finish my brutal campaign tonight, spend a couple nights smoothing out the build in yabot, and gathering a few replays then post back here.
Actually I withdraw my request; if you are still playing campaign, you are not going to have anything worth reading, not until you "smooth out the build" over a few weeks playing ladder.
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On August 20 2010 23:46 bluesoup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:17 Cloak wrote:
It's probably the most versatile mirror match out there, but nobody likes being on the business end of Terran crap, not even Terrans. Depends on your definition of what is Terran crap... Me, I just love when they throw some of that crap at safe build and get nothing out of it
crap is definatley 10 mile long siege lines and pure defensive play. sorry but 45minute turtle fests are not my idea of having fun (is a game after all)
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I do agree with OP that tank / viking is a very effective opener. It is not, however, the end-to-be-all strategy. You build vikings in TvT for one main reason - secure air dominance. This gives your tanks more range than his tanks, AND lets you deploy heavy air. There's obviously little point building banshees or BCs if he has more vikings than you; yet these units give the best options for breaking siege lines and fighting large numbers of marauders. I like to open with tank / viking and spar back and forth, looking for an opportunity to eliminate all of his vikings + camp his starports.
Once one player loses control of the air, their only real option is a marauder + thor push, which is certainly effective if half of your army is vikings; not so effective if you kept up with tank production and have banshees / BCs / your own marauders on the way.
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i dont like siege tanks so when the other guy gets em i kinda just give up :S
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EPT
