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With lots of terrans these days on the ladder, why is it so i hear that people hate TvT. Actually it is my favorite match-up (maybe because I do reasonably well) going tank/viking. And I rarely have to fight tank/viking vs tank/viking any more...
I mean, is it that people see Morrow or other high level terrans do bio builds TvT and succeed and when they try it with mid diamond skills they just die to tank/viking ? I am mid diamond (i.e. mediocre) player and I get a nice smile when I see more than one rax. I know I won...
Sure, I have lost with tank/viking vs bio, marauders have so much mobility, but the opponent was way better and I would have lost whatever he decided to use.
Reapers? If i scout tech lab i make tech lab on my rax after 2 rines, build one marauder and than continue with using the tech lab for the factory. One marauder and subsequent tanks just stop it dead if it is not proxy 7rax or something...
Early bio push before siege-mode? It is so easy to scout... One bunker at choke stops it (and I don't wall-in TvT). Returnable 100min is not really issue that can slow down tank/viking as it is gas heavy...
Banshees? That's what vikings are for among other things. Few well placed turrets with viking support and banshees are shut down.
Can they stop me from expanding? On most maps no. Siege tanks with few rines (i mean 4-5 few) for shield will kill his bio since they a-moved and and marauders stopped to hit the rines...
Then they will try to drop? Nope. By the time he has 3-4 medivacs to do effective drop, I will have 6-7 vikings plus few key turrets and patrol drop routes since I don't have to use them for vision or vs. his vikings.
So they added thors? Just fly my vikings over them when they try to engage and thors will happily shoot at the vikings (doing small damage) while my tanks pound them....
I can freely use my CC energy to scan, and see what he is up to since I will be constantly gas blocked but as my minerals reach 400, i just expand and expand. Gas piling up? Add factories, etc...
Sneak an expo while not having air superiority?... Difficult. Vikings fly and will do massive damage while he ground moves his bio to save it...
Mid-game, they will stim, run-in and die to mass tanks...
And than they rage-quit, or say TvT is boring, or whatever...
I don't get it... Why so much hate to strategy that is obviously good and can be played with lesser skill. You need to substantially out-skill your opponent to win with bio or thors vs tank/viking...
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It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player.
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On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player.
Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT...
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On August 20 2010 23:01 bluesoup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player. Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT...
Actually I figured out a way to beat it with a marauder/thor FE build, and others have had success with early marauder rushes. It's also possible to beat it with proxy raxes, but you have to be more tricky with those at diamond level whereas at lower levels you can often just proxy straight up and win.
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On August 20 2010 23:08 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:01 bluesoup wrote:On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player. Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT... Actually I figured out a way to beat it with a marauder/thor FE build, and others have had success with early marauder rushes. It's also possible to beat it with proxy raxes, but you have to be more tricky with those at diamond level whereas at lower levels you can often just proxy straight up and win.
I don't want to use cheesy builds to win against tank/viking, i want there to be natural variety in strategies that have equal chances of winning.
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im not sure in SC2 but in BW its boring cause its like a game of chess. you wait for the first player to have vision on the tanks within range or drop at those tanks while they duke it out on other spots of the map using wraiths. its basically who-has-the-better-micro game but ide rather go watch tvt than watch pvp. >.<
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On August 20 2010 23:12 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:08 SugarBear wrote:On August 20 2010 23:01 bluesoup wrote:On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player. Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT... Actually I figured out a way to beat it with a marauder/thor FE build, and others have had success with early marauder rushes. It's also possible to beat it with proxy raxes, but you have to be more tricky with those at diamond level whereas at lower levels you can often just proxy straight up and win. I don't want to use cheesy builds to win against tank/viking, i want there to be natural variety in strategies that have equal chances of winning.
Marauder/thor FE is far from cheesy. IMO tank/viking IS cheese.
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It's probably the most versatile mirror match out there, but nobody likes being on the business end of Terran crap, not even Terrans.
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Well, the problem with FE build against t/v is that if one if his vikings scouts that you are building CC instead of more marauders (which are mineral heavy), he can just push you with 3 tanks and few rines and than you are contained to one base. On most maps, rax can be used as spotter (delaying vikings) while tanks are positioned to pound your nat CC. Or, you will loose so much units braking it while he has already safely expanded... Good luck with it vs equal skill players...
Other option for t/v players is to double expand (most 4p maps) since if u did FE, u can't break him early game...
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Basically I dont like tvt for alot of the reason's people mention. Generally Long 45 minute games invovling setting up tank lines with a MILLION vikings edging forward providing vision for the tanks to snipe eachother. It just gets so annoying edging across the map 10 pixels at a time. Ultimately it doesnt lead to an exciting game. Sure there are cheeze and early game pushes which can defeat the standard play. But its risky. If you go to push with the rauders and they get shelled to death by 2-3 tanks what good did it do?
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On August 20 2010 23:14 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:12 ChickenLips wrote:
I don't want to use cheesy builds to win against tank/viking, i want there to be natural variety in strategies that have equal chances of winning. Marauder/thor FE is far from cheesy. IMO tank/viking IS cheese.
i think he's referring to the proxy rax as cheese, not marauder/thor. and how the hell is tank viking cheese?
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On August 20 2010 23:18 bluesoup wrote:
Well, the problem with FE build against t/v is that if one if his vikings scouts that you are building CC instead of more marauders (which are mineral heavy), he can just push you with 3 tanks and few rines and than you are contained to one base. On most maps, rax can be used as spotter (delaying vikings) while tanks are positioned to pound your nat CC. Or, you will loose so much units braking it while he has already safely expanded... Good luck with it vs equal skill players...
Other option for t/v players is to double expand (most 4p maps) since if u did FE, u can't break him early game...
By the time he gets out 3 tanks and siege tech and pushes to my base I will have a thor and plenty of marauders to deal with his push. Bunkers too if needed. Then I push with thors and HE is the one who ends up contained.
The good thing about playing t/v players is they are never equally skilled. It just doesn't take enough skill to play t/v so you have a lot of high level players who are very poor but the build is so strong they win anyway.
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On August 20 2010 23:22 SugarBear wrote:
By the time he gets out 3 tanks and siege tech and pushes to my base I will have a thor and plenty of marauders to deal with his push. Bunkers too if needed. Then I push with thors and HE is the one who ends up contained.
The good thing about playing t/v players is they are never equally skilled. It just doesn't take enough skill to play t/v so you have a lot of high level players who are very poor but the build is so strong they win anyway.
Siege-mode comes with the second tank so by the time I have 3 tanks and siege mode I can decide what to do. You can't have CC, Thor, stim, and enough marauders to stop it... But than again this is theory-crafting....
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On August 20 2010 23:32 bluesoup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:22 SugarBear wrote:
By the time he gets out 3 tanks and siege tech and pushes to my base I will have a thor and plenty of marauders to deal with his push. Bunkers too if needed. Then I push with thors and HE is the one who ends up contained.
The good thing about playing t/v players is they are never equally skilled. It just doesn't take enough skill to play t/v so you have a lot of high level players who are very poor but the build is so strong they win anyway. Siege-mode comes with the second tank so by the time I have 3 tanks and siege mode I can decide what to do. You can't have CC, Thor, stim, and enough marauders to stop it... But than again this is theory-crafting....
It's actually not theorycrafting since I've had success with that build before. I will have to finish my brutal campaign tonight, spend a couple nights smoothing out the build in yabot, and gathering a few replays then post back here.
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On August 20 2010 23:19 Meldrath wrote:
Basically I dont like tvt for alot of the reason's people mention. Generally Long 45 minute games invovling setting up tank lines with a MILLION vikings edging forward providing vision for the tanks to snipe eachother. It just gets so annoying edging across the map 10 pixels at a time. Ultimately it doesnt lead to an exciting game. Sure there are cheeze and early game pushes which can defeat the standard play. But its risky. If you go to push with the rauders and they get shelled to death by 2-3 tanks what good did it do?
pretty much sums it up - its boring as all fuck if its tv vs tv
im trying to end most of my games pretty fast by either going 3rax 50 food push or marine/hellion push with first banshee (ala morrow v tlo games earlier)
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On August 20 2010 23:17 Cloak wrote:
It's probably the most versatile mirror match out there, but nobody likes being on the business end of Terran crap, not even Terrans.
Depends on your definition of what is Terran crap... Me, I just love when they throw some of that crap at safe build and get nothing out of it 
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On August 20 2010 23:14 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:12 ChickenLips wrote:On August 20 2010 23:08 SugarBear wrote:On August 20 2010 23:01 bluesoup wrote:On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player. Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT... Actually I figured out a way to beat it with a marauder/thor FE build, and others have had success with early marauder rushes. It's also possible to beat it with proxy raxes, but you have to be more tricky with those at diamond level whereas at lower levels you can often just proxy straight up and win. I don't want to use cheesy builds to win against tank/viking, i want there to be natural variety in strategies that have equal chances of winning. Marauder/thor FE is far from cheesy. IMO tank/viking IS cheese.
Someone needs to pay a visit to Liquipedia...
On August 20 2010 23:08 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:01 bluesoup wrote:On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player. Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT... Actually I figured out a way to beat it with a marauder/thor FE build, and others have had success with early marauder rushes. It's also possible to beat it with proxy raxes, but you have to be more tricky with those at diamond level whereas at lower levels you can often just proxy straight up and win.
Please do share your fascinating strategy, although I don't expect to be impressed given the above comment.
On August 20 2010 23:41 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:32 bluesoup wrote:On August 20 2010 23:22 SugarBear wrote:
By the time he gets out 3 tanks and siege tech and pushes to my base I will have a thor and plenty of marauders to deal with his push. Bunkers too if needed. Then I push with thors and HE is the one who ends up contained.
The good thing about playing t/v players is they are never equally skilled. It just doesn't take enough skill to play t/v so you have a lot of high level players who are very poor but the build is so strong they win anyway. Siege-mode comes with the second tank so by the time I have 3 tanks and siege mode I can decide what to do. You can't have CC, Thor, stim, and enough marauders to stop it... But than again this is theory-crafting.... It's actually not theorycrafting since I've had success with that build before. I will have to finish my brutal campaign tonight, spend a couple nights smoothing out the build in yabot, and gathering a few replays then post back here.
Actually I withdraw my request; if you are still playing campaign, you are not going to have anything worth reading, not until you "smooth out the build" over a few weeks playing ladder.
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On August 20 2010 23:46 bluesoup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:17 Cloak wrote:
It's probably the most versatile mirror match out there, but nobody likes being on the business end of Terran crap, not even Terrans. Depends on your definition of what is Terran crap... Me, I just love when they throw some of that crap at safe build and get nothing out of it
crap is definatley 10 mile long siege lines and pure defensive play. sorry but 45minute turtle fests are not my idea of having fun (is a game after all)
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I do agree with OP that tank / viking is a very effective opener. It is not, however, the end-to-be-all strategy. You build vikings in TvT for one main reason - secure air dominance. This gives your tanks more range than his tanks, AND lets you deploy heavy air. There's obviously little point building banshees or BCs if he has more vikings than you; yet these units give the best options for breaking siege lines and fighting large numbers of marauders. I like to open with tank / viking and spar back and forth, looking for an opportunity to eliminate all of his vikings + camp his starports.
Once one player loses control of the air, their only real option is a marauder + thor push, which is certainly effective if half of your army is vikings; not so effective if you kept up with tank production and have banshees / BCs / your own marauders on the way.
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i dont like siege tanks so when the other guy gets em i kinda just give up :S
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On August 20 2010 23:50 Mato wrote:
crap is definatley 10 mile long siege lines and pure defensive play. sorry but 45minute turtle fests are not my idea of having fun (is a game after all)
Strangely enough, my TvT games rarely come to boring siege tank lines. If it is t/v vs t/v, somebody usually screws up on the vikings war early game, loses map control (and no, Xel'naga camping wont save you vs viking mobility) and soon the game. So i ussualy have fun with people banging bio-heads or with viking wars (which i kind of fun for me)
Once TvT game goes t/v vs t/v route, it is the vikings that win the game, not siege tank lines. If he can't match your viking count, he can have as solid line as he likes, when you can just fly around it and harass him to hell and back. He can't move even 10cm forward while you can. You can break Xel'nagas if you harass him and force him to bring some of his tanks to defend his expos. And he has to expo as gas is what counts.
Also, it is the game where first one who goes BCs, dies
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Fuck TvT. 45 minute long games of just waiting for your opponent to move out of position and you being lucky enough to see it does not constitute a fun time in my book. I tried using all kinds of other strategies but every single one would die to siege fire. I had one opponent in a TvT who just 7 proxy rax reaper rushed me and gg'd as soon as I held it off, I think he had the right idea about the MU.
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On August 20 2010 23:59 Hunch wrote:
i dont like siege tanks so when the other guy gets em i kinda just give up :S
This adds nothing to the conversation you might wanna try alittle harder with your posts befor a mod smacks you with a warning or a temp ban for being a poor poster.
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The strategy in the game has nothing to do with why people hate tvt. Most people hate it because it takes too long. Or if you contain them early on, and you know you've basically won, the opponent sits in his base for 5-10minutes turtling, just making it harder for you to get a gg.
It would be nice at the 600+ point level to show a little respect and gg, instead of one-basing with 7 tanks on your cliff and 80 turrets. You and I both know eventually you'll die, so stop wasting my time :p Happens all the time in tvt, kinda sucks 
Otherwise, tvt is great. Even in bw it was one of the most intense match-ups, yet took so long many people didn't like it.
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I like TvT it is just that after 4 consecutive ones you get bored.
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I like TvT (I'm around 500 Diamond). I have to keep scouting for early pushes or switches, and if it comes down to t/v vs t/v it becomes a micro battle, which are always fun. I agree that it's lame if they turtle in with turrets after they have already lost, but overall there's a lot going on. It's a far more fun matchup to play than TvZ.
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TvT is my best match up but i dislike it because if 1 person goes tank/viking/marine he basicly forces the other player to do the same thing. Then you get Viking wars because people realize 3 tanks with vision > 20 tanks w/o vision.
tanks are a interesting unit, op or not but still interesting.
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Marauders have been winning me alot of games, either through a straight up push with stim and good micro or by map control and a FE.
Some maps tanks are king though. LT comes to mind.
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Im just mad at the quantity rate that I am given this MU. This MU is about close to half of the 1v1's I play which is complete bullshit. I dont want to fight T's all day its not fun going tank/viking all day playing 40 minute games. I play this game to fight the other races diversity.
I wish blizz would implement a dislike button for mirror matches because I would definately wait an extra minute or two on my matchmaking system for a TvZ or TvP rather than a tvt.
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ever played to BW ?
tvt was vultures / tanks or goliath tanks most of the times :o
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TvT is an annoying matchup because there are two very common and specific instances that seems to reward lesser skill.
First of all the tank/viking play is retardedly easy to pull off. If you happen to get a contain outside your opponents base you will barely need to control anything at all, while the player who has to break the contain, or who goes for a thor/marauder build or something that does not just involve siegeing up and sitting on your ass has to pull off very precise and difficult unit control in order to win.
The second situation being when people who have essentially lost, walls themselves in on two base with 200 supply tank/viking and just sits on their ass, forcing you to take the entire map and waiting for them to mine out because it is too big of a risk to try and break their fortification. Thus you end up having to spend 30 minutes on games you already won.
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This matchup used to be one of my better ones, because Low plat and under, you can take out almost any T with a well timed 3 rax marine marauder push... Diamond people don't die to that so then I have to try to scrape out 1 base siege expand vs a greater number of tanks and vikings and it doesn't go very well from there. I actually had someone mass thors vs my tanks and BCs once and win it, took him enough time for me to mine out 5 bases on Lost Temple though...
Thats another thing about this MU, the other day I pushed a guy with marauders and won on scrap station but he lifted off and took the island. Managed to mass 30 turrets and bc/raven there. I had to mine out 5 bases with a 200/200 viking BC army and build 8 starports before I could push it, because I did end up losing a 200/200 air army to his defenses (screwed up micro and lost like 20 vikings to seekers)... This was his 1 base play! Then he pushed out knocked out 2 expos with his remaining BCs while I rebuilt to 200/200 viking BC again before taking him out. How is this matchup fun again?
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The opening phase has a lot more variety than most people give TvT credit for, you'll be surprised how many games you can win with aggressive builds. However the games that don't end early have a tendency to be long and annoying.
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I usually try to establish air dominance and transition into BCs as early as possible. Also use small marauder forces around the map to kill/harass expansions etc. like this the game doesn't degenerate into this static tank play. If it ends in a 45 minute tank standoff that's usually the fault of both players being stubborn and not abusing holes in the opponents play with small drops etc.
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time consumption and effort. TvT is 45+ minutes of possibly the most difficult matchup in the game.
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because siege tanks can't fire back even when shot at
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TvT is awesome. But it's by far the matchup I have to put the most effort into, so I struggle a bit after I have to face 4-5 terrans in a row like I did this morning A tiny mistake can really hurt you soo much.
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On August 21 2010 01:15 VanGarde wrote:
with 200 supply tank/viking and just sits on their ass, forcing you to take the entire map and waiting for them to mine out because it is too big of a risk to try and break their fortification. Thus you end up having to spend 30 minutes on games you already won.
That was true in SC1, not so much in SC2. If you get into such situation, (i.e. won the game, out-expanded him, etc...) why not simply break him. You'll be surprised how much it is easier in SC2. No matter how many tanks he has on the high-ground, if he lost his vikings, he can't stop you from breaking into his base, simply because you will out-range his might tanks. He will run out very soon of two things: gas and scan. There is little risk of counter push (we are talking t/v), even if he gets a good scan off, killing more of your tanks, without air dominance he can't just unsiege and roll you. He is going nowhere...
Rally your factories outside of his base to replenish when you loose few tanks because he will scan (only after tanking few hits on his tanks) while you fly in-out with your vikings (both Thors and turrets don't do enough damage to stop you from gaining vision to fire shot off) and just close in with your tanks. Also, you will have more OC and more scan than him if your vikings are getting low on health. TvT aggression (albeit inch by inch) pays off in SC2 because aggressor is usually the fist one who fires the shots (i.e. scans), and contains/defensive positions are weak without air-cover. Exception being xel'naga camping, but that is not the case you describe.
On two bases (one being his main) he simply does not have the gas to pump both tanks and vikings to match your production (by that time, mostly tanks and just few vikings to replenish) if you force the attrition. His only hope is to switch to marauders, like Shaithis said. You can break him in like 2-3 minutes by inching forward. When you start hitting his factories/ports, or they just run out of tanks, they usually leave, pronto. And vikings take down flying buildings soo fast . It will take some time, but definitely not the 30minutes several of you mentioned, to just break him to pieces.
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I love facing other people who go Tank + Viking. Most people go too heavily into Vikings in order to win the Viking war. You just have to completely stop producing vikings and making Marauders instead. Soon he realizes he has 20 vikings that can't do shit while his low tank count gets raped by marauders.
Marauders beat tanks when both sides have small numbers and there are no chokes or ledges. If you want to attack before you get 2-3 bases up and running for a while tanks aren't really that good. And if your opponent invests too much in tanks you could just switch to banshee/viking and make the tanks completely useless.
You can also use ghosts with nuke to force your opponents tankline back in order to take key terrain on the map.
I wouldn't agree that Tank/Viking takes no skill though. Possitioning and timing is very important. Of course you will easily win vs someone who tries to rush marines into your tankline. If both players are responding correctly then using tank/viking as a core unit set and then branching out can take a lot of skill. If you only make tanks and vikings you will not be spending all you minerals so it's usually better to make tank/marauder/viking.
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I hate tank/viking. I switched back to protoss after 50 games of terran almost solely because I hate hate hate tank viking 45 minutes games. They are no fun, and there are way to many terrans on the ladder these days.
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On August 21 2010 02:04 bluesoup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:15 VanGarde wrote:
with 200 supply tank/viking and just sits on their ass, forcing you to take the entire map and waiting for them to mine out because it is too big of a risk to try and break their fortification. Thus you end up having to spend 30 minutes on games you already won. That was true in SC1, not so much in SC2. If you get into such situation, (i.e. won the game, out-expanded him, etc...) why not simply break him. You'll be surprised how much it is easier in SC2. No matter how many tanks he has on the high-ground, if he lost his vikings, he can't stop you from breaking into his base, simply because you will out-range his might tanks. He will run out very soon of two things: gas and scan. There is little risk of counter push (we are talking t/v), even if he gets a good scan off, killing more of your tanks, without air dominance he can't just unsiege and roll you. He is going nowhere... Rally your factories outside of his base to replenish when you loose few tanks because he will scan (only after tanking few hits on his tanks) while you fly in-out with your vikings (both Thors and turrets don't do enough damage to stop you from gaining vision to fire shot off) and just close in with your tanks. Also, you will have more OC and more scan than him if your vikings are getting low on health. TvT aggression (albeit inch by inch) pays off in SC2 because aggressor is usually the fist one who fires the shots (i.e. scans), and contains/defensive positions are weak without air-cover. Exception being xel'naga camping, but that is not the case you describe. On two bases (one being his main) he simply does not have the gas to pump both tanks and vikings to match your production (by that time, mostly tanks and just few vikings to replenish) if you force the attrition. His only hope is to switch to marauders, like Shaithis said. You can break him in like 2-3 minutes by inching forward. When you start hitting his factories/ports, or they just run out of tanks, they usually leave, pronto. And vikings take down flying buildings soo fast . It will take some time, but definitely not the 30minutes several of you mentioned, to just break him to pieces.
It is insanely risky to just try to break a fortified terran in TvT because of the production times involved. A defensive terran army is very superior and unless you have something like battlecruisers AND solid air superiority going in for a quick break can easily backfire if you loose your army.
I don't take that risk in TvT anymore, if another terran fortifies himself even though he is in a clear economic disadvantage I will make sure to double his number of bases AND throw up a fuckton of raxes before I try to break him, that way I can pretend I am zerg and replentish my entire army in no time. Going in for a bust unless you are 100% sure that you are going to win it is a very good way of loosing games that you had already won.
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On August 20 2010 22:47 bluesoup wrote:
With lots of terrans these days on the ladder, why is it so i hear that people hate TvT. Actually it is my favorite match-up (maybe because I do reasonably well) going tank/viking. And I rarely have to fight tank/viking vs tank/viking any more...
I mean, is it that people see Morrow or other high level terrans do bio builds TvT and succeed and when they try it with mid diamond skills they just die to tank/viking ? I am mid diamond (i.e. mediocre) player and I get a nice smile when I see more than one rax. I know I won...
Sure, I have lost with tank/viking vs bio, marauders have so much mobility, but the opponent was way better and I would have lost whatever he decided to use.
Reapers? If i scout tech lab i make tech lab on my rax after 2 rines, build one marauder and than continue with using the tech lab for the factory. One marauder and subsequent tanks just stop it dead if it is not proxy 7rax or something...
Early bio push before siege-mode? It is so easy to scout... One bunker at choke stops it (and I don't wall-in TvT). Returnable 100min is not really issue that can slow down tank/viking as it is gas heavy...
Banshees? That's what vikings are for among other things. Few well placed turrets with viking support and banshees are shut down.
Can they stop me from expanding? On most maps no. Siege tanks with few rines (i mean 4-5 few) for shield will kill his bio since they a-moved and and marauders stopped to hit the rines...
Then they will try to drop? Nope. By the time he has 3-4 medivacs to do effective drop, I will have 6-7 vikings plus few key turrets and patrol drop routes since I don't have to use them for vision or vs. his vikings.
So they added thors? Just fly my vikings over them when they try to engage and thors will happily shoot at the vikings (doing small damage) while my tanks pound them....
I can freely use my CC energy to scan, and see what he is up to since I will be constantly gas blocked but as my minerals reach 400, i just expand and expand. Gas piling up? Add factories, etc...
Sneak an expo while not having air superiority?... Difficult. Vikings fly and will do massive damage while he ground moves his bio to save it...
Mid-game, they will stim, run-in and die to mass tanks...
And than they rage-quit, or say TvT is boring, or whatever...
I don't get it... Why so much hate to strategy that is obviously good and can be played with lesser skill. You need to substantially out-skill your opponent to win with bio or thors vs tank/viking...
you actually LIKE doing the same exact strategy over and over again and being confined to only a few viable options??? Most people find that bland and boring. People complain about ZvZ for the same reason..
I mean if you think doing the same exact thing over and over again is fun then more power to you, but most people like to have a little variety in their matchups..
You seem to like the matchup because its so easy to win with Tank/Viking and while that's true, that does not make it a good or fun matchup.. quite the opposite really... people aren't complaining that it's hard to win TvT, they are complaining because of how little options there are.. yes we all already know how effective Tank/Viking is in TvT that's not the argument...
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I recently started experimenting with ravens in TvT. I think they have potential for breaking t/v.
Throwing down a turret next to one of his tanks usually results in self-inflicted death. And turrets are pretty cheap. PDD helps a shit ton in viking vs viking battles, and heat-seeker missile can be used pretty well on any sort of clumps. I need to practice more, for sure, but I have a feeling that once people get comfortable, soon it will be raven/viking/tank 
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On August 21 2010 02:58 stk01001 wrote:
you actually LIKE doing the same exact strategy over and over again and being confined to only a few viable options??? Most people find that bland and boring. People complain about ZvZ for the same reason..
Actually i like to play the game with a chance to win. I learned few things like when i tried to go bio vs t/v. Bar few exceptions, t/v works find for me and it is fun. Maybe because other people are trying (mostly unsuccessful) different things to beat it, i have varied games and fun. And even when they go t/v, it is a skill game, fun chasing with vikings and outsmarting the other guy who will get expo sooner and who will engage with temporary superior numbers. It is quite unforgiving, i.e. if you slip, it is quite a steep slope getting back. Yet, it is type of game i like. There is no racial imbalance to complain when you loose, only your choices in the game.
But than again I have no fun in 5min games (i.e. protoss proxy gateways, etc...), whether i win or loose.
For additional variety, i have the other match-ups and 2v2 games, where, well you have to use other strategies... So yes, 5 TvT games in a row is not really fun, but after few mixed match-ups, i like to relax and let the other guy try the Terran crap on me...
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On August 21 2010 02:25 DrainX wrote:...
Soon he realizes he has 20 vikings that can't do shit while his low tank count gets raped by marauders...
Or you realize you have to split your forces over all your expansions because he is picking off SCVs with landed vikings whenever a expansion is slightly unprotected.
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I did not play BW but from watching games on youtube I can see that TvT is all about vultures, tanks and goliath. Did people complain that TvT in BW was boring too? If they did not then what was the difference that makes TvT in SC2 boring?
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you should not be able to expand if you invested in a lot of vikings... your opponent should have more tanks and a lot of marauders.
all he has to do is take expo's and bait the vikings to land, then kill them all, and then you have a small number of tanks. he medivac drops his marauders on your tanks. gg?
losing an expo doesn't mean anything when he can safely expand again, knowing that he has tanks , turrets and marauders camped at your expo's so you're stuck on one base.
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I find that tank viking is good unless the other player is going mass marauder, so when I scout that I end up going for a banshee opening, but tank viking will beat any banshee opening... Feels a bit too RPS for me, as in tank viking beats banshee opening, which beats mass marauder, which beats tank viking and so on.
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maybe people actually like having fun with the game and not do some strategy that is really boring and causes stalemates or whatever i personally dislike tvt because even if you get an advantage somehow its gets to be difficult pushing into siege tanks sieged with any other ground unit
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TvT is the best mirror imo. Tank/viking is boring and frustrating for sure, but when you don't play against someone using this combo (and noone likes this so this is very rare to face it) it's one of the best MU with the massive rauder/tanks/medivacs army with drop everywhere to bypass tank lines.
Moreover there are a lot of viable opening, this is the only mu where you can do pretty much everything you want and it can work.
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1 1 1 into 4 rax rauder when expand. It owns.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
To answer the OP, it's because they mindlessly copy builds and don't think about how to counter popular TvT builds. Going pure tank/viking is pretty easy to exploit in the mid game and I usually don't lose to it.
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Lately I have had some success mixing in Banshees at the expense of tanks in the tank/viking mix, especially against T who seem to like going marauder heavy lately. Transitions well into from a banshee opening for a bit of harass, to put your opponent on the defensive, and your army is much more mobile.
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i hate it bcz i can't pull off TLO or morrow or other gosuplayers game style against turtle terran with tanks, turrets, and then add vikings and expand slowly... it's so gay...
But when they mess up i drop a tank with some stuff at their base to slow them down... but anyway it's gay.
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In early game, tanks/viking is not the only viable strategy. It becomes only when you hit about 5-6 tanks. If you want to spice up the late game and make it more interesting try using nukes, they are lots of fun xD.
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TvT is awful. I always have the wrong units.
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I quit a TvT half way because I had to take a shit ... fucking 30 minutes of battling over each pixel ...
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it's because on ladder its easy to win in under 10 min on TvZ or TvP with 1a bioball. TvT you usually have to play better and longer.
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T v T is one of the best match ups in the game. People only hate it because it's also the most difficult match up in the game
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Simple answer?
Most people hate TvT because vikings have too much range.
Cut them down to 7 range where turrets can come into play, and now you can make all kinds of moves that open up.
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On August 20 2010 23:01 bluesoup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 22:49 SugarBear wrote:
It's specifically because tank viking is so easy to pull of that it's fall asleep boring, and anything you can do to counter it requires far more skill than the t/v player. Isn't this like banging your head against a (tank/viking) wall. Embrace it brothers, it is the way forward in TvT...
It's like banging your head against the collosus wall of pvp.
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On August 21 2010 12:19 Jermstuddog wrote:
Simple answer?
Most people hate TvT because vikings have too much range.
Cut them down to 7 range where turrets can come into play, and now you can make all kinds of moves that open up.
I'm not sure how much that would help. The Vikings can still see further than your Turrets can shoot, which is all they need to do to fulfill their purpose.
That said, I still think TvT is the best of the mirror matchups. It's annoying when the game takes 15 minutes to win and half an hour to end, but it's still better than PvP or ZvZ.
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30 minute TvT = a bad player. The quote that is takes skill to beat a skill-less build is laughable as it just claims that you are unskilled (if you were you wouldn't have an issue right?). People put way too much focus into build orders and army composition. This may be a winning factor at bronze but in the higher leagues it's the better skilled player that wins.
How to beat t/v you ask? Just to get some of your gears turning: #1 harass. For some reason Terran players just don't do it enough aside from a reaper opening. Terran has (imo) the best harassing capability being that every unit par from marines can do it, and you don't need many to be effective with it. why harass? Because your opponent has 2 options: do nothing about it or add preventive defenses to harassment. If he does nothing, then you gain economic superiority, meaning you can trade blow for blow 1:1 and you'll be able to field an army/replenish faster and bigger than his. If he adds defenses against it, he is taking resources away from his main army which means yours will be stronger than his.
The problem of prolonged TvT match-ups is that T players like to march their army next to the other's and circle jerk instead of attack. If he's spread out, spearhead right into him. If he's clumped, harass, flank, MAKE THE INITIATE, this will win you games and drop that game timer guaranteed. Yes, this requires a lot of micro. Maybe because I come to SC2 from DoWII (which is ALL micro based) I'm used to this style of play, but I have not encountered an extended game because of this (for the exception of the d-bag that wants to play "hide the supply depot" for 5 minutes) <-- almost sounds dirty
Lastly I question the dislike of what I have come to understand as "cheese" or "all-in" builds. Do these require skill to pull off? yes. Are they highly risky? yes. But if it wasn't for these builds would players ever have to worry about a 6 pool or a proxy rush? Does it not force players to effectively scout and challenge their skill level? To me it's like bluffing in poker. Takes a mix of skill and luck to pull off, and it keeps the game interesting. Quite a few of these effective against a player going gas heavy. I advise using them every now and then.
PS: don't we play SC to have fun? If something is boring then why do it?. This reminds me of the term "cheap". Some probably know of the article I refer to where players call something "cheap" because they make up imaginary rules that their opponent isn't playing by. Like the player in Mortal Combat that does the same move over and over, and is called "cheap" because the losing player thinks he's playing a game where you have to use a mixture of combos and special moves to defeat your opponent. Know what happens? Some one comes along and finds a counter and that becomes the trend and so on. Luckily this is an RTS and there are plenty of options to choose from, just gotta use that thing nestled on your shoulders. GL HF keep gaming!
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TvT is definitely the most diverse mirror matchup. Certain fast banshee builds allow you to be aggressive while still being safe against standard early tank plays by allowing you to contain your opponent and expand yourself. Then i usually transition into marauder thor, which just feels way more fun than tank viking. I think there is soo much diversity in this matchup that many people havent been exploring at all that keeps the game from becoming t/v.
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I really enjoy TvT, sure you have to have a solid tank/viking base, but you can incorporate every unit and structure in the terran arsenal once you've established tank/viking equality. I think people just don't like it because the games are long and they are used to 10-15minute wins with a hard counter.
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it seems the general population always lags behind the top players in strategies and really just copy what they see
tvt is not a tank viking war at all anymore. it was for like a month but now infantry has made a strong comeback and all kinds of maraudor/thor/banshee builds as well. Almost all the IEM games so far are not tank viking and tvt just keeps on evolving. Quite an amazing matchup really.
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I used to hate tvt. Long boring games with pretty much no attacking bar a couple of viking harasses until one player gets bored and does something stupid or manages to secure an expo more than their opponent.
Recently however, I always ask at the start of a TvT whether it is ok if we play without siege tech. Tanks still allowed, but no sieging. It makes the game a lot more fun, with hellions becoming a brilliant unit to draw some fire from the bio/thor armies sitting around the map. Thors themselves become the most powerful and game-changing unit in the armies, and suddenly the armies are mobile. Also, ravens and banshees get a real chance to shine, being able to out-maneuver the ground army while not being incredibly difficult to get enough gas for, now that the 125 gas tanks are out of the way.
Anyway, just thought I would add my 2 cents. Or whatever the saying is...
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I swear lately the amount of people trying cloaked banshees has increased...kinda annoying. I've been building a raven first on my starport for banshee detection and pdd. With pdd it doesn't matter if I have less vikings (i'll soon enough add another starport), but it also negates marauder shells.
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People put too much emphasis on the tank viking mechanic. Early game TvT ill usually do a bio push+stim backed up with tanks and I'll follow it up with regular tank/viking play which I then move into viking/BC, its all about variety in this match up and if I dont use the full range of options that terran has to offer, like cloak, ravens, marines and thors I'm usually bound to lose.
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EPT
