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On August 20 2010 23:50 Mato wrote:
crap is definatley 10 mile long siege lines and pure defensive play. sorry but 45minute turtle fests are not my idea of having fun (is a game after all)
Strangely enough, my TvT games rarely come to boring siege tank lines. If it is t/v vs t/v, somebody usually screws up on the vikings war early game, loses map control (and no, Xel'naga camping wont save you vs viking mobility) and soon the game. So i ussualy have fun with people banging bio-heads or with viking wars (which i kind of fun for me)
Once TvT game goes t/v vs t/v route, it is the vikings that win the game, not siege tank lines. If he can't match your viking count, he can have as solid line as he likes, when you can just fly around it and harass him to hell and back. He can't move even 10cm forward while you can. You can break Xel'nagas if you harass him and force him to bring some of his tanks to defend his expos. And he has to expo as gas is what counts.
Also, it is the game where first one who goes BCs, dies 
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Fuck TvT. 45 minute long games of just waiting for your opponent to move out of position and you being lucky enough to see it does not constitute a fun time in my book. I tried using all kinds of other strategies but every single one would die to siege fire. I had one opponent in a TvT who just 7 proxy rax reaper rushed me and gg'd as soon as I held it off, I think he had the right idea about the MU.
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On August 20 2010 23:59 Hunch wrote:
i dont like siege tanks so when the other guy gets em i kinda just give up :S
This adds nothing to the conversation you might wanna try alittle harder with your posts befor a mod smacks you with a warning or a temp ban for being a poor poster.
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The strategy in the game has nothing to do with why people hate tvt. Most people hate it because it takes too long. Or if you contain them early on, and you know you've basically won, the opponent sits in his base for 5-10minutes turtling, just making it harder for you to get a gg.
It would be nice at the 600+ point level to show a little respect and gg, instead of one-basing with 7 tanks on your cliff and 80 turrets. You and I both know eventually you'll die, so stop wasting my time :p Happens all the time in tvt, kinda sucks 
Otherwise, tvt is great. Even in bw it was one of the most intense match-ups, yet took so long many people didn't like it.
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I like TvT it is just that after 4 consecutive ones you get bored.
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I like TvT (I'm around 500 Diamond). I have to keep scouting for early pushes or switches, and if it comes down to t/v vs t/v it becomes a micro battle, which are always fun. I agree that it's lame if they turtle in with turrets after they have already lost, but overall there's a lot going on. It's a far more fun matchup to play than TvZ.
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TvT is my best match up but i dislike it because if 1 person goes tank/viking/marine he basicly forces the other player to do the same thing. Then you get Viking wars because people realize 3 tanks with vision > 20 tanks w/o vision.
tanks are a interesting unit, op or not but still interesting.
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Marauders have been winning me alot of games, either through a straight up push with stim and good micro or by map control and a FE.
Some maps tanks are king though. LT comes to mind.
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Im just mad at the quantity rate that I am given this MU. This MU is about close to half of the 1v1's I play which is complete bullshit. I dont want to fight T's all day its not fun going tank/viking all day playing 40 minute games. I play this game to fight the other races diversity.
I wish blizz would implement a dislike button for mirror matches because I would definately wait an extra minute or two on my matchmaking system for a TvZ or TvP rather than a tvt.
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ever played to BW ?
tvt was vultures / tanks or goliath tanks most of the times :o
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TvT is an annoying matchup because there are two very common and specific instances that seems to reward lesser skill.
First of all the tank/viking play is retardedly easy to pull off. If you happen to get a contain outside your opponents base you will barely need to control anything at all, while the player who has to break the contain, or who goes for a thor/marauder build or something that does not just involve siegeing up and sitting on your ass has to pull off very precise and difficult unit control in order to win.
The second situation being when people who have essentially lost, walls themselves in on two base with 200 supply tank/viking and just sits on their ass, forcing you to take the entire map and waiting for them to mine out because it is too big of a risk to try and break their fortification. Thus you end up having to spend 30 minutes on games you already won.
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This matchup used to be one of my better ones, because Low plat and under, you can take out almost any T with a well timed 3 rax marine marauder push... Diamond people don't die to that so then I have to try to scrape out 1 base siege expand vs a greater number of tanks and vikings and it doesn't go very well from there. I actually had someone mass thors vs my tanks and BCs once and win it, took him enough time for me to mine out 5 bases on Lost Temple though...
Thats another thing about this MU, the other day I pushed a guy with marauders and won on scrap station but he lifted off and took the island. Managed to mass 30 turrets and bc/raven there. I had to mine out 5 bases with a 200/200 viking BC army and build 8 starports before I could push it, because I did end up losing a 200/200 air army to his defenses (screwed up micro and lost like 20 vikings to seekers)... This was his 1 base play! Then he pushed out knocked out 2 expos with his remaining BCs while I rebuilt to 200/200 viking BC again before taking him out. How is this matchup fun again?
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The opening phase has a lot more variety than most people give TvT credit for, you'll be surprised how many games you can win with aggressive builds. However the games that don't end early have a tendency to be long and annoying.
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I usually try to establish air dominance and transition into BCs as early as possible. Also use small marauder forces around the map to kill/harass expansions etc. like this the game doesn't degenerate into this static tank play. If it ends in a 45 minute tank standoff that's usually the fault of both players being stubborn and not abusing holes in the opponents play with small drops etc.
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time consumption and effort. TvT is 45+ minutes of possibly the most difficult matchup in the game.
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because siege tanks can't fire back even when shot at
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TvT is awesome. But it's by far the matchup I have to put the most effort into, so I struggle a bit after I have to face 4-5 terrans in a row like I did this morning A tiny mistake can really hurt you soo much.
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On August 21 2010 01:15 VanGarde wrote:
with 200 supply tank/viking and just sits on their ass, forcing you to take the entire map and waiting for them to mine out because it is too big of a risk to try and break their fortification. Thus you end up having to spend 30 minutes on games you already won.
That was true in SC1, not so much in SC2. If you get into such situation, (i.e. won the game, out-expanded him, etc...) why not simply break him. You'll be surprised how much it is easier in SC2. No matter how many tanks he has on the high-ground, if he lost his vikings, he can't stop you from breaking into his base, simply because you will out-range his might tanks. He will run out very soon of two things: gas and scan. There is little risk of counter push (we are talking t/v), even if he gets a good scan off, killing more of your tanks, without air dominance he can't just unsiege and roll you. He is going nowhere...
Rally your factories outside of his base to replenish when you loose few tanks because he will scan (only after tanking few hits on his tanks) while you fly in-out with your vikings (both Thors and turrets don't do enough damage to stop you from gaining vision to fire shot off) and just close in with your tanks. Also, you will have more OC and more scan than him if your vikings are getting low on health. TvT aggression (albeit inch by inch) pays off in SC2 because aggressor is usually the fist one who fires the shots (i.e. scans), and contains/defensive positions are weak without air-cover. Exception being xel'naga camping, but that is not the case you describe.
On two bases (one being his main) he simply does not have the gas to pump both tanks and vikings to match your production (by that time, mostly tanks and just few vikings to replenish) if you force the attrition. His only hope is to switch to marauders, like Shaithis said. You can break him in like 2-3 minutes by inching forward. When you start hitting his factories/ports, or they just run out of tanks, they usually leave, pronto. And vikings take down flying buildings soo fast . It will take some time, but definitely not the 30minutes several of you mentioned, to just break him to pieces.
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I love facing other people who go Tank + Viking. Most people go too heavily into Vikings in order to win the Viking war. You just have to completely stop producing vikings and making Marauders instead. Soon he realizes he has 20 vikings that can't do shit while his low tank count gets raped by marauders.
Marauders beat tanks when both sides have small numbers and there are no chokes or ledges. If you want to attack before you get 2-3 bases up and running for a while tanks aren't really that good. And if your opponent invests too much in tanks you could just switch to banshee/viking and make the tanks completely useless.
You can also use ghosts with nuke to force your opponents tankline back in order to take key terrain on the map.
I wouldn't agree that Tank/Viking takes no skill though. Possitioning and timing is very important. Of course you will easily win vs someone who tries to rush marines into your tankline. If both players are responding correctly then using tank/viking as a core unit set and then branching out can take a lot of skill. If you only make tanks and vikings you will not be spending all you minerals so it's usually better to make tank/marauder/viking.
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I hate tank/viking. I switched back to protoss after 50 games of terran almost solely because I hate hate hate tank viking 45 minutes games. They are no fun, and there are way to many terrans on the ladder these days.
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EPT
