|
On August 19 2010 11:56 Surrealz wrote: I think the problem isn't really the build, its really just PvP as a matchup. Its shit.
I think its your attitude.
If the said build was so strong you'll see everyone doing it. Don't rely on 1 single build to win you everygame. Adjust to your opponent, if someone camps in their base its pretty obvious they are up to something - in which solutions have been given -, a forge, wall off, robo, timed push etc.
|
4 gate stalker is a strong build for sure, which is probably why you're winning most of your pvps vs diamond players, who are doing safer builds like 3 gate obs -> immortal or 2 gate-> immortal.
However, the problem is, its clearly not a safe build if you're losing to DT. Theres only 2 real solutions, either breka him before DT which will be very hard, or defend DT by means of cannons or obs, eventually having to tech to obs anyways, but maybe after expo at least.
A lot of people are getting cocky in sc2, because they see themselves at #1 diamond and think they're god, and can't accept that theres tens of thousands of better players still. 4 gate blink is a risky build man, either play something safter, or accept you'll get hard countered.
|
I think you need some kind of scout to check around for DTs. dark shrine takes so long, you should catch it with obs or hallu phoenix if you time it right. if you get caught with your pants down you should block your ramp with units or w/e while getting a cannon (forge+cannon takes less time than robo+chrono'd obs by about 6 seconds)
also in theory if you are doing some super-aggressive build against his 2 gate dt, he'll be pretty low on unit count and will have to start forcefielding his ramp and delay until dts are out. at that point it would be time to start getting suspicious.
|
I find early DTs a pretty good all-round choice. For each racial matchup they have their advantages and disadvantages.
Against Zerg and Protoss (Terrans to a lesser extent, but still happens), they tend to have less early detection, so if you can get them out before (or just after) they expand, you can wipe out all their drones/probes/scvs without much hassle.
But if you build them, and discover detection when you get there, it's not the end of the road. They're also excellent to use in defense, as not many people remember to bring detection units along on an assault. Against Terrans, DTs are an awesome defense against MMM bioball, because they're rarely accompanied by detection, and can easily turn the tide of battle without being noticed.
Defending against them as protoss would be much harder. But with most of my builds I'd have a Forge or Robo up by the time they come out. If you don't incorporate either of them into your build by about the 7min30s mark (when DTs can normally arrive by) then basically... start putting one in your build!
|
Just scout. Both with your probe and your early stalker. If you sense something fishy,throw down a robo.
|
Honestly, you can throw a probe at the ramp to see what shoots at it, and deduct from that what he will do. Even if he 4 gates, you can stop it with 3 gate robo, so don't be afraid to put down that robo.
|
Not scouting isn't a high level game. its noob level game. proper scouting at right timing and getting as much information about the opponent is key to victory in high level games.
|
If he doesn't expand or push when the normal 4gate timing occurs, you know something different is coming, forge + 1-2 cannons covers you against both VR and DTs, and you should have one anyway for upgrades. Just keep yourself from pumping zealots, they aren't that great in PvP until you get legs anyway, just get the forge and if you get nervous start up a cannon on your ramp. If you hold off DTs you get a free expo and he's basically done.
|
If you want useful comments on how to improve your play, I really recommend posting a replay. We'll be able to tell you more about what's going on in your game.
If he's building a DT rush like the one here (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dark_Templar_Rush ), I would expect a properly executed 4 gate to crush that easily. Thus, I presume you're having problems with DTs when you make 3 gate blink and don't push out before blink. If this is what you're doing, the timing on the shrine is such that you'll have only 15 or so seconds of blink before DTs warp in.
So, how do you solve the problem? My first recommendation would be to be more active with your units before blink is finished. You can learn a lot about what build he is making by poking at the front. A lot of the time, you can rule out DTs just by attacking and seeing what shoots back. If you see a lot of guys, you just run back home and do what you're used to doing.
If, on the other hand, you see a defensive alignment of buildings, no robo units, and no expansion, you more or less know he's making void rays or DTs. Here you just want to assume he's making DTs and get a forge up, because you know your blink stalkers will easily solve any void rays that arrive.
Worst case scenario, if you come to 7 minutes of game time and you don't know what he's building, drop a forge down. It will be handy in almost any game state -- the one it doesn't help in is one where he's making some all-in, and you'd know that by that point of the game.
Hope this helps.
|
On August 19 2010 15:21 zor.au wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 11:56 Surrealz wrote: I think the problem isn't really the build, its really just PvP as a matchup. Its shit. I think its your attitude.
No kidding. What do you want to hear OP? That a long, drawn-out 4 gate should beat his DT's without observers? So many reasonable solutions have already been presented -- both either involving a change in your BO (3gate/robo, or late forge/cannon at choke), or a change in strategy (i.e. better scouting, gas steal, harass). But no, I guess you've tried all of these and a scrub's DT build beats them -- so it can't possible be a problem with your build -- it MUST be a problem with the match-up....
|
If you see him go DTs, get some sentries while you get detection up, you can also do hallu observers until you get actual observers (if you want to get hallucinate). Or, you can watch closely for DTs, and force field whenever you see him going in for a push with them(this has worked for me).
|
its hard to tell exactly what went wrong when there is no replay. by yur logic, a 4/3 gate push beats any robo build because if u make a timing push, then u can hit them be4 they get immortals or colossus. well a robobay is ezer to get than dt shrine: cyber-robo cyber-twilight-shrine
so if u go for an early push, u will win because his army will be smaller and he wont have dts. if he gets an army strong enough to defend his base, his dts will be delayed and u should have a forge by the time his dts pop up. because u should have a forge for upgrades at around 8-10mins. as toss, terran and zerg i tend to always build a detector no matter what because it doesn't cost much. im gonna have an bay for upgrades so i build a turret next to my choke and supply just in case. toss is same as terran. with zerg i have 2 queens and 1 spore at each base. this can kill a pretty decent amount of air units because of transfusion. building 2 cannons is like losing 2 stalkers 2 stalkers isnt much later on in the game.
i dont think that blink stalkers is a very good strategy in PvP. blink is mainly use to save yur units from ranged units. most toss armies will have zealots in which case u would probly kite instead of letting them hit u and then using blink when the stalker is almost dead. a zealot/stalker army kills a pure stalker army because it takes a while to kill zealots by kiting and yur stalkers get hurt by the enemy stalkers while kiting.
|
I remember my first experience vs DTs. I didn't even know they existed, but i was chilling in a 2 v 2 in my base as a terran, and saw this shimmering mass passing through my army. I was like wtf? I scanned it for some reason, and, bam, suddenly my rauder/rine army just melted about 15 DTs. My teamate about peed his pants, and the guy I scanned quit, his teamate leaving about a minute after. I lol'ed so hard, realizing I just owned a cheese build like that by pure accident.
|
If he rushes straight for DT's, you should have crushed him before he gets it by poking and seeing low unit count. If it is more of a delayed DT tech with a zealot heavy timing push to buy time ( you will defeat the push), the moment you see DT's simply walk into his base and kill his probes and/or gateway pylons. Ignore the DT in your base, run your probes around and start warping in multiple forges/robos. He will have to use most of his 3-4 DTs for defense, so just move-shoot while killing probes and pylons. DTs have very low dps vs. move shoot unit balls, and you can even trap him between his own buildings with 2 forcefields.
The worst thing you can do is freak out and think that just because he has a few DTs, your entire army is useless until you get obs.
|
On August 19 2010 06:32 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 06:21 Kyadytim wrote: A possible solution to this would be to allow the sentry to create hallucinated observers which can function as detectors. They'd still be super squishy (essentially only 30 HP) and not cloaked, but it would also give Protoss something against cloaked banshee/observer snipe builds. I don't think this would terribly break any other matchups (it would free Protoss from auto-losing against cloaked banshees they don't get a robo, so that might annoy Terran players), although it would make DTs 100% useless in PvP. You can make hallu observers!!!!??? You, sir, just make my day. I usually get Hallucinate anyway, so now I won't need robo till later! woot!
Sorry for the double quote i think you might of misread what he said, I read it as you did the first time around also.
|
wait what?!?!? a hallucinated ob can detect?!?
can anyone verify this? i am not at my computer to test it.
|
no f!@# way, hallucinated ob can detect????????????????????? that's bs, i need to test this now.
|
On October 06 2010 10:43 FreeZEternal wrote: no f!@# way, hallucinated ob can detect????????????????????? that's bs, i need to test this now.
FALSE FALSE FALSE.
Someone was SUGGESTING the idea that you could hallu observers so that you wouldn't insta-lose against anything with cloak if you didn't go Robo.
|
you cannot hallucinate an observer.
|
On August 19 2010 06:15 Surrealz wrote: Ok, you guys don't seem to understand the situation. You have 0 scouting until your push or hallucinate as a blink stalker build. You do NOT have the money to just go throw cannons down every game just in case of DTs. At high level play you do not see people just throwing down cannons in PvP for fun. Its a fast paced and deadlocked matchup, with every little bit of food counting.
If I prepare with a forge+cannons every PvP, I will lose to anyone who robos or blinks.
First off, high level players tune their builds to account for all sorts of counter methods. Watching nony's replay pack from beta, you see that he puts down a forge and cannon after losing to dt's. And if you're gonna say he's not a good player, then i don't know how to argue this point.
Aside, I feel that you're attitude toward the match up is wrong. You NEED to scout your opponent. Whether it be sacrificing a probe or running up and away with a stalker, that's all you need to check their army composition and gas allocation. If there are very few gas intensive units (sentries/stalkers) then you know he's most likely teching. If you notice few units all together, then he's most likely going for robotics or stargate play. If you notice a lot of units, he's most likely going for warpgate in which case you have to decide whether it's dt's or 4 gate.
Now, the timing on the cybernetics core is also important. The earlier, the more teching oriented. Assuming 17-18 is the average supply time you should be able to get a good read. Also notice their second gas timing. You should definitely be able to scout this before the stalker pops if they are going for a gas intensive build. As a side note, i suppose you could always steal their gas if you're so worried about dt's...
Finally, you have blink stalkers, what're you doing with them? Are you constantly tryin to pressure and poke up their ramp? that would give you ample information as to their army composition and how he's teching. Even if he forcefields you, you know how much more delayed the dt's are.
I hope some of this helped and that you might start to enjoy pvp. I find it an actually entertaining matchup due to the breadth of strategies available once you know the scouting signs and the timings (4 gate push, before critical number of colossus, voidray critical mass, dt's, etc...)
|
|
|
|