EPT[G] PvT Dark Templar Rush - Page 2
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CuChullain
Switzerland85 Posts
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Psychopomp
United States237 Posts
On August 14 2010 10:14 SirNeshorn wrote: I usually never go for a straight up DT rush. However, what I've found to be amazingly effective (and this is even more powerful against Z) is a Chargelot/DT push. If T turtles heavily when you pushout, you are quite safe to expand, and if you engage him in combat, chargelots are already good at early-mid stage of the game vs T, and even if T orbwalks, zealots are more likely to take the shots than the DTs. It does indeed work wonders. The way it's been working out for me, I'm getting my first two DT's a mere 10-30 seconds before the huge MM push. A legion of chargelots with two or so DT's, and a blocked ramp absolutely tears the push apart in no time. They hardly ever know what hit them. After that, you're normally in a good enough position to push forward into their base, preceded by an expansion. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-139097.jpg) They do know what hit them? Damage is done anyway. The enemy is now spending more money than they should to find barely existent cloak. Also, if the Shrine gets scanned while building, you can cancel it once the scan expires, which will easily let you grab Blink instead. Laugh as you snipe their Ravens, as they waste minerals on nigh useless towers, and waste scans on your army. | ||
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
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Hynda
Sweden2226 Posts
On August 15 2010 12:08 Psychopomp wrote: It does indeed work wonders. They way it's been working out for me, I'm getting my first two DT's a mere 10-30 seconds before the huge MM push. A legion of chargelots with two or so DT's, and a blocked ramp absolutely tears the push apart in no time. They hardly ever know what hit them. So you're counting on the Terran not having a scan or being completly oblivious when he pushes in with that mm push? I mean as soon as those dts starts rippling the scan would go down the shells would hit your dts and they would be dead before they could do anything useful. I myself have never lost to DT's perhaps because I've never met any good DT rushers or perhaps because I'm just to paranoid to be caught without detection. It seems that everyone counts on me not seeing those damn obvious ripples and be caught by surprise when the DTs hit. which is rather weird seeing how I have a harder time with Protoss than your average terran player. | ||
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Psychopomp
United States237 Posts
On August 15 2010 12:36 Hynda wrote: So you're counting on the Terran not having a scan or being completly oblivious when he pushes in with that mm push? I mean as soon as those dts starts rippling the scan would go down the shells would hit your dts and they would be dead before they could do anything useful. I myself have never lost to DT's perhaps because I've never met any good DT rushers or perhaps because I'm just to paranoid to be caught without detection. It seems that everyone counts on me not seeing those damn obvious ripples and be caught by surprise when the DTs hit. which is rather weird seeing how I have a harder time with Protoss than your average terran player. Considering it's the only counter to that push we have, that doesn't involve hundreds of vespense, and minutes of research, yeah, I think I'll rely on my average opponent not seeing a ripple in a legion of chargelots. | ||
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Miraqle
United States20 Posts
I'm playing around 600 diamond and I often drop a dt shrine around when I'm bringing out storm. Small drops around the map and on different expo's really throw players off their game and I think having that potential early on is pretty great. At the same time, it's so vulnerable I don't know how well it can hold. I think the big issue would be the 1/1/1 not so much because of the impending raven, but instead the early harass a lot of players do. A push with some marau/marine and a hellion early as their starport is putting something out does a lot of damage against a lot of openings that are better prepared for something like that. Are there any quick timing pushes that can end it? | ||
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Hynda
Sweden2226 Posts
On August 15 2010 12:55 Psychopomp wrote: aye,didn't mean to sound like an asshat but it's 6am and for some reason I have a habit of posting this early for somereason resulting in awful posts. The gist of it was rather do you do something to actually hide them like flanking or bringing them in later/having the positioned beforehand were you expect the ball to be? So many protoss just seems to asume that cloaked means not visable and I couldn't help but feel that with some creative play it would at least make it a helluva lot harder to spot em comming.Considering it's the only counter to that push we have, that doesn't involve hundreds of vespense, and minutes of research, yeah, I think I'll rely on my average opponent not seeing a ripple in a legion of chargelots. | ||
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HardcoreBilly
United States222 Posts
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mufin
United States616 Posts
On August 14 2010 21:15 Nah wrote: Ok I've done some math and if you do 10 Gate on 01:20 then counting build times you get Dark Shrine ready at 5:45. So it's rather 6 minute mark. Quite fast nonetheless. Delaying warp gate research at least 10 seconds gets you into a perfect synchronisation. You can even delay 50s if you store enough chronoboost. Sure you can race to tech up to DT's and increase your chances of instantly winning with them but you forget that a very popular terran build vs protoss is an early marauder push. What are you going to do when he shows up at your ramp with 3-4 marauders while your dt shrine is just being started and warpgates halfway done? I'm not saying DT rushing is not a good strat, but I just think that you guys aren't taking into account all the things the Terran can do. There are alot of different tricks a terran can do to ruin your DT rush... A few of them that most protoss don't know about is: 1. EMP decloaks DT's for a period of time (I think 30 seconds) Source: (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/ghost) - highlight over the EMP ability 2. Fast Marauder pushes can shut this build down instantly. 3. 1/1/1 with an emphasis on a fast raven. Now that thats out of the way and to add in my own 2 cents to the thread, I DT rush every single one of my PvTs. At face value DT rushing seems simple, but if you account for the above points, its get very technical very quickly. If you notice theirs a period of time where you have an excess of minerals while your blowing all your gas teching up to DTs. What I like to do is use these extra minerals to make a forge and 2 cannons at my ramp so I'm safe against any type of early marauder push. To give you an idea I get my DT's warped in at the 6:30-7:00 min mark (game time, or 5 min real time) and have both cannons down at 4:00 min (game time). The timings are very close but if your bulid is tight, you should be ok. This also accounts for getting a quick stalker to keep you safe against any type of early reaper nonsense. Most Terrans surprisingly don't know about EMP decloaking DT's but obviously you shouldn't count on him not knowing about it. EMP basically counts as another scan. When you get your intial DT's (I shoot for having 3) this is what you need to do assuming the terran walls himself in. 1. Send your DT's in one at a time to take out his supply depot. I'm a little ballzy and send in my first 2 at once to take out the depot as fast as possible (3 DT's can't all attack the initial depot because theres not enough room for all 3 to attack it). If he scans run away and wait it out. - If he has ghosts then make a judgement call if you want to force your way into his base or just take your map control (more about that below). Once you destroy the first depot though and spread your DT's throughout his base, the effect of EMP dwindles significantly). - if he a missile turret at his ramp then take your map control (explained below). 2. If you were able to breach his wall-in and you've spread your DT's throughout his base then your priority kill targets are the following. a. Starport (only if tech lab is attached) *note that destroying a tech lab does not cancel a Raven if its already in production* b. SCV's building missile turrets c. missile turrets under construction d. Ghosts e. engineering bay f. Command Center or SCV's. I don't consider scans to be a big deal but if you force a command center to lift off it can't scan. On the other hand if you kill all his SCVs its pretty much gg. Either way your most likely going to win if you got to this point on the priority list. *also note that its nearly impossible for the Terran to have both a starport with a tech lab and ghosts out at the 7 min mark so you should be expecting one or the other, or neither* 3. If he has a missile turret at his ramp or you decide to back off after seeing some ghosts, then you take the map control DT's give you. What this means is that you can expand yourself (I like to take the gold) while denying your opponent's expansion with your DT's. Whats convenient is that if he went ghosts then he is not going to have a raven for a while since most of his gas was spent on the ghosts (were still at the 7 min mark here). If he had missile turrets down that fast (assuming he doesn't know about your DT tech but just doing it as a precaution) then it usually means he's going bio (or just a paranoid s.o.b) due to the infantry upgrades at the e-bay. The amount of time it takes him to get his raven is the amount of time you have to get your expansion up and change tech according to your opponent's build. Here are my general rules. Your opponent went bio Expand with your map control, tech to double robo collosus and stalkers. Use your first robo facility to chrono-boost out a warp prism and drop your DTs in the back of his base (bypassing missile turret and bottle-neck effect of EMP at the ramp) to do some harassment and possibly end the game if you can micro your DT's properly. Your opponent went mech Go double stargate and mass void rays. If he starts getting alot of vikings then get void ray speed from the fleet beacon so the vikings can't kite your void rays. If your opponent got a fast raven from the 1/1/1 build Then its pretty much gg for you. I mean you can hope the terran is bad and you can try sniping his raven but its nearly impossible to come back if he just a-moves all his forces/raven to your base. And thats how I win 90% of my PvT's and what I believe to be the correct way to DT rush... As you can see it is a bit more complicated then just building a DT shrine as fast as you can and a-moving your DT's into his base. Edit: Also props to Keren below for writing his own thoughts about the build  . | ||
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Humga
Australia43 Posts
I just go straight to his base and kill the supply depot block (which takes 10 seconds to destroy) after it's down i send all my DT's in and spread them out in his base and he's fucked. Only time it didn't work was when he went ravens which came maybe 15 seconds after my DT's were in his base. | ||
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Keren
United States67 Posts
My build is roughly Gate -> Core -> Stalker -> Warp Gate -> Council -> 2 Gates/DT Shrine as fast as money allows. For those of you who don't know this already, when you start the Twilight Council, if you're mining both gas and don't spend any of it before it finishes, you should have exactly 250 for the Shrine. Build a proxy pylon in some sneaky spot when its convenient before the Shrine finishes, build 2 DTs, send them in separately and then, whatever happens to those 2, make sure you make 1 to contain/scout (or you can keep shoving DTs down his throat if you're sure it'll win/do enough damage). Now for what you need to look for. DT 'rushing' (I prefer to think of it as DT expanding but w/e) is somewhat risky, obviously, but not as much as people seem to make it out to be. The things I look for: 1.) Tech Lab before Marine (or early Rax): Put the idea of going DTs on hold until you can ascertain how aggressive he's going to be. If you hold off some early push (too many to list exactly but you get the idea) you can resume going DTs but don't try and force it if he's gonna be super, super aggressive. 2.) Marine -> Tech Lab: You can be almost 100% sure he's going to do the 2 Marauder, 1 Marine push. If the rush distances are decently lengthy, you can go ahead as normal. If not I suggest pushing back your Council 100 gas and get a Sentry out (also put down your 2nd, maybe 3rd gate. Oh and don't be afraid if you float up in minerals to put down a 2nd gate before Council in any game regardless of his build, the limiting factor on that Council timing is gas much more than it is minerals). After this push you really have to be on your guard and watch how aggressive he's going to be afterward. If its the 2 Marauder 1 Marine 1 Reaper -> FE build then you're fine. If not you might have to delay for another Sentry. Regardless you should be okay and your DTs will spring you back to at least even. 3.) Initial Scout killed before seeing Factory or Tech Lab: After you drop your Council, send in another probe to see what's up. If you see Marauder(s) and a tech lab, proceed as above. If not, he's probably going 1/1/1 or some sort of Ghost build, in either case, don't delay your Dark Shrine at all but make sure the very first 100 gas you get after you build it goes into getting a Sentry. You can hold off a ridiculous amount of Marine/Marauder at a ramp (oh, do this build on Scrap Station or Kulas at your own peril) with clever forcefield use and lots of Zealots and remember, you only need to survive until you get DTs. 4.) The sky is falling -> He's going 1/1/1 and/or he scouted you: Don't completely throw your build to the wind or anything, you haven't lost, keep your cool. If you are very sure he's gonna get a Raven in time (which requires going straight 1/1/1, don't underestimate how fast you're gonna have these DTs) use your first 200 gas after Dark Shrine to get Charge. The 1/1/1 push is a Raven, Marines, and a tank or two, with siege coming around the time it arrives. You need to get charge and engage him before he sieges and if you do, even going DTs isn't necessarily going to result in a loss. It's going to require you to delay your expo and some good micro, but I promise you can do it, especially if you split up your forces and bring it DTs from behind when you engage (remember, they tear up Marines, detectable or not). If you hold it off, then you're probably safe to expo but from there, you're just gonna have to go off of feel and not a predetermined game plan. You might ask, why continue with DTs if you think he's going 1/1/1? Well, first of all DTs open up awesome counterattack opportunities if he pushes out with his first Raven so all is not lost. 2nd of all DTs are amazing later in the game against T. Even with access to Ravens it makes any movement, expansion or drop he tries to do that much harder. And perhaps most importantly, sometimes you're just not gonna know that Raven exists until you throw a DT into it =(. 5.) He went something deliciously Dark Templar-able: Do your damage. If he fast expanded, make sure to split up your DTs to hit both mineral lines at roughly the same time. Whatever you do, if you want consistent wins, don't fucking mass DTs or something and try and end the game. A lot of the time when you get in there you'll find he has a Ghost or two and was planning a Ghost timing push. Your DTs are gonna get EMP'd and killed. If he's low on energy (orbital and ghost) and isn't gonna have turrets, you can use a few more to do damage but don't get greedy -> you don't need to end the game. Sometimes your DTs are gonna save your ass from some 3Rax push that's in the process of battering down your front. Once again don't get impatient and try and make a bunch and just win. Shut down the attack, send in maybe 1 to harass and then just contain with them. So, you've DT'd the Terran but he's still in the game, now what? Well my rough gameplan is expand as you spawn the DTs, go up to 5 gates, get High Templar (and their associated upgrades), get Charge, get a Forge, get +1, get a Robo for Obs, and then go up to 7 Gates. That's roughly how I prioritize it too. When your DTs get in there you need to see how far he is from getting a Raven to see how greedy you can be. If he did something like a fast expand, or a big Ghost push or was in the process of 3Raxing you, you will be shocked at how much you can get away with. Seriously, he can't push out for an eternity if he's still on Barracks tech so when this happens, I start pumping Zealots and wait for 200 gas and make an Archives. I add on 2 more Gates and keep just making Lots until I have both Storm and Charge going. Then spend some gas on some Templar and other units and get around to making a Forge and a Robo to get +1 and Observers, all the while making tons of probes (this goes for before you expand too, don't cut a bunch of probes to like 4 gate + DT and try and get a fast win). By time he's comfortable enough to push out, most of your upgrades will have finished and you'll be catching up in army count and storm is just stupid good against infantry so you'll probably just win (if he's on one base). If not, right as Khaydarin finishes, I take my 3rd and push with 7 Gates, Charge, Storm and +1 -> its a pretty devastating push because you were able to use the DT contain to (sometimes, if he didn't expo) get an economic lead and in all cases take a huge tech lead by getting a silly number of upgrades at the same time. If he's further up on the tech tree, you have to be more worried about a push so you can't just forgo unit production to get a bunch of upgrades, so add more gateways on earlier, get the Robo earlier (Banshees!) and just generally don't play as greedy. If he goes for a more mech oriented play (which is usually some sort of 2 rax 1 fact with tech labs when your DTs get there with Siege researching), he may well use Turrets to detect his way into an expo and make a lot of tanks. In this case don't make more than 5 gates but instead get 1 or 2 Stargates. Do pretty much the same kind of push as above, but make sure you have a decent count of Phoenixes (assuming it is a bio ball supported mech play). If he goes pure mech (tons of tanks, Thors, etc.) then just take a 3rd instead of pushing. In my opinion, the DT rush is one of the strongest Protoss openings against Terran, not just some gimmick. Often times getting your DT shrine scanned can work to your advantage -- don't be rash and cancel it but if you know he was planning for a bio push, you can cut production of units to throw down your Nexus even before your Shrine is anywhere near done! Effectively, in a lot of cases, your DTs can do their job before they're even built by making him go out of his way to tech up to Raven before he does the push he had planned and this way, when it does, you're pumping off 5+ gates and 2 bases! Also, if you're new to the build, don't give up on it just cause you got pushed and lost before the Shrine finished. Don't just throw your hands up and go "oh well, guess it just loses to that!" because I promise, you can survive a lot more than you might think. The slightest mistake - not making a Sentry when you should have, missing units going up your ramp, not Chronoing Warp gate enough to get it out just in time, building your 2nd and 3rd Gates just a little too late can all result in what feel like insurmountable losses. What this means, almost always, is that if you just squeeze out a little more before your DTs come out, you can collect a win. Against most aggressive Terran builds, DTs are high risk, high reward in the sense that, if you execute it just right, hang on by the very skin of your teeth and get the DTs out, you can get yourself a huge advantage that a lot of other builds can't provide you. In a lot of ways, its the polar opposite of something like 3 Gate Robo. You can be really, really sloppy with 3 Gate Robo and you'll almost always live to see a 2nd base, but at the same time, you have to really work some magic to get yourself very far ahead. Just remember, whenever you lose to a push trying this (and I tried to outline most of what my experience has shown!), watch the replay! See what you could have done differently while still getting the Shrine and also watch out to see what you can scout to see it coming, don't get lazy and hope the build will just do all the work for you! | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On August 14 2010 09:39 Powster wrote: I tried this in beta but.. guy got a raven from starport then my DTs were useless.. archon them then, make them tank and stop pumping dts | ||
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Terranist
United States2496 Posts
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
5 minutes on fastest isnt really 5 minutes | ||
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CuChullain
Switzerland85 Posts
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The Nightwatchman
22 Posts
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iokke
United States1179 Posts
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Aquafresh
United States824 Posts
1. I'm still not familiar with the timings yet but it feels like there is a window where a one base Terran can launch a marine/marauder attack and kill you just before you get DTs. It's usually 4-5 of both and it comes right around when my Dark Shrine is about 80% done and I have maybe a sentry and a stalker (if I suspected reapers) or 2 sentries plus the usual handful of zealots. I haven't died to this yet, but I fear that if I was playing better opponents this could really be a problem. At the very least they could cause enough damage that I would be pretty behind if they followed up with an expand. 2. DT expand completely loses to any sort of cloaked banshee rush. You really have to be sure that is not coming, which can be sort of tough because getting a starport doesn't necessarily mean banshees, and they can always swap around the add ons. Rarely is my probe alive long enough to catch this, and if it is my opponent probably sucks anyway. Maybe if you follow up with a Robo right away, or if you add a forge into the BO somewhere and delay the nexus? I am going to try to fit in hallucination research to try and scout his base for banshees because I can really see this being a problem. 3. Obviously if terran fast expands you are behind, because your expansion is not going to be truly "fast" because of the DT tech. The DTs aren't likely to be so effective either because he will be able to scan from two OCs. Even if you get him to waste a bunch of scans he'll still probably have enough energy to MULE a few times and be ahead of you in economy. I haven't found enemy scouting to be a huge issue with this. Usually you can kill the SCV scout before you start doing anything suspicious, even if it catches the Twilight council (which is a stretch) I think this is still pretty strong. I haven't had to hide the Dark Shrine outside my base, just outside of the scan range if he targets my nexus. Plus just the threat of DTs is sometimes enough to give you the map control you need to expand safely, at which point you can transition into a standard mix of templar tech, or even blink stalkers. For reference I tried making this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/DT_Fast_Expand_(vs._Terran) work in SC2 before I found this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dark_Templar_Fast_Expand_(vs._Terran). I use the latter build, but I don't get a zealot, usually I just wait for the sentry unless I scouted something weird. The important thing is to have the goal of constant production from at least 2 gateways by the time you place your dark shrine, which should go down around ~30 supply, and to safely place your nexus before 40 supply. I feel if I get those things done I'm in good shape. If I fight off the early timing attack without losing much I feel like the game is over if he stayed on one base, and significantly in my favor even if he expanded as he moved out. | ||
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CuChullain
Switzerland85 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-140000.jpg) A Replay which shows what happens if T is pushing out early, expecting DT. | ||
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