We all know that four gate is a powerful build, but it's not unbeatable by any means.
However, what is the BEST way to defend against four gate on maps like Delta Quad and Blistering Sands?
On Delta Quad, the nat is so wide open, you'd have to build a ton of spine crawlers in both bases. However, with the timing of most four gates, it'd be impossible to do because resources would not allow it unless you want to skimp on your army. Should I just ignore my army and build a ton of spine crawlers in each base?
On Blistering Sands it's the same. They four gate, break down your backdoor, and you're forced to run your spine crawlers from base to base. However, the burrow time for spine crawlers is such that they'll just die while they're burrowing down. I managed to defend vs. one for a while but eventually the pressure broke me down since my spine crawlers would gradually receive free damage.
I can easily defend against four gates on maps like Lost Temple where the natural isn't as wide and there isn't an alternative route to the main. My previous strats so far have been to build 4-5 spine crawlers and hold them off with speedlings while teching to hydras, but that's harder on maps where they can just walk around the spine crawlers to the main or just snipe down your nat if your main is well defended.
So, what is the best way? And yes, I scout and prepare beforehand. I know it's coming, and I prepare for it (it's the optimal build for 90% of the tosses I play against anyway). I'm currently top Platinum playing against mid level Diamonds.
Oh, and I've come across two kinds of four gates:
Mass zealots and sentries. Mass stalkers and few zealots with one or two sentries.
NOTE: This is NOT a balance thread. Do not complain about imbalance or any such thing. Only competent advice allowed. :D
I think the best way is to fast expand while rushing hydras. Don't even bother making more than 2-4 lings if you see they are 4 gating. With 2-3 spine crawlers and some hydra you can usually micro your way into the lead if they try to push in. The timing of this is usually really close but when it works it works really well, for me at least (500 diamond)
I usually do a sort of Idra build, 15 pool, 15 hatch, gas as soon as both queens are started. Lair as soon as I get 100 gas. I'm at work now but I can post a replay or 2 from last night where I defended 4 gates.
I disagree with rushing Hydra ... I've seen it work but I've also seen it fail way more. On Delta Quad I really like 1 base muta as you can take your safe expansion and then a quick third after you repel the 4 gate.
If you're hellbent on fast expanding though I've found just a metric shitton of zergling is sufficient to usually hold off 4 gate (with Hydras added in as soon as they become available).
-Massing Speedlings. -Building a few Spine Crawlers at the natural. -Rushing to Lair + Hydra Den.
Don't bother saturating your nat right away, just use it for the creep to put down Spine Crawlers. The concept is the same for an open nat/multiple entrances. You can probably cut down on the Spine Crawlers and just replace that with Zerglings. It's importnat to have Overlords near all the entrances to know where he's coming from, and just use your Zerglings to flank him so Forcefields can't do too much. It's true that it's much more difficult to hold on open nats, but I think this is just cutting more Drones to replace with Zerglings than if you had an easy to defend nat. The fact that your nat is down means that as soon as you repel his push, you can make a couple rounds of Drones to be ahead economically.
1 Base Muta gets raped by 4 Gate I have no idea what you're talking about :3 You'll hold off their first push but then they make a round of Stalkers and there's no way your 2 gas can support enough Mutas to hold off the next push.
On August 12 2010 07:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Holding off 4 Gate is an issue of:
-Massing Speedlings. -Building a few Spine Crawlers at the natural. -Rushing to Lair + Hydra Den.
Don't bother saturating your nat right away, just use it for the creep to put down Spine Crawlers. The concept is the same for an open nat/multiple entrances. You can probably cut down on the Spine Crawlers and just replace that with Zerglings. It's importnat to have Overlords near all the entrances to know where he's coming from, and just use your Zerglings to flank him so Forcefields can't do too much. It's true that it's much more difficult to hold on open nats, but I think this is just cutting more Drones to replace with Zerglings than if you had an easy to defend nat. The fact that your nat is down means that as soon as you repel his push, you can make a couple rounds of Drones to be ahead economically.
1 Base Muta gets raped by 4 Gate I have no idea what you're talking about :3 You'll hold off their first push but then they make a round of Stalkers and there's no way your 2 gas can support enough Mutas to hold off the next push.
I suppose a ton of zerlings would be good against mass stalkers, but I fear against mass zealots they'll just melt. I guess I'll just have to see which one they go for and see if I should get banelings or not.
My personal experience is that Banelings are very weak to 4 Gate because of the steep gas cost, reduces your Zergling count, and is very vulnerable to any sort of micro on Stalkers + Forcefield Sentries.
I'd rather just have some Hydralisks out for really good DPS on Gateway units while your Lings surround and block.
The trick is to not over drone. When he is 4 gating he is only on one base. Have enough drones to saturate one base spread amongst your two mineral lines and then STOP making drones.
After that, I find a nice balanced mix of roaches and lings will stop it almost every time. Just gotta make sure you stop droning and start producing army early enough. It can still be handy to place one spine crawler at each base, but I wouldn't do any more than that on wide open nat maps.
Then all you have to worry about is the inevitable switch to colossus.
On delta quadrant, I usually do not FE and instead go one base until I can break the rocks of the safe nat. That way I can expand, get the eco advantage, and expand again while protecting all three with a better funded force pretty easily.
On August 12 2010 07:57 drayen wrote: via unit tester, lings + 10% bling can chew up more than their investment in zelots/stalker (even if heavy zelot). Does anyone go bling vs protos ?
Nah, not early in the game at least. Well placed forcefields will render your banelings useless. I think hydra/speedling is really the only way to go vs. 4 gate.
On August 12 2010 07:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Holding off 4 Gate is an issue of:
-Massing Speedlings. -Building a few Spine Crawlers at the natural. -Rushing to Lair + Hydra Den.
Don't bother saturating your nat right away, just use it for the creep to put down Spine Crawlers. The concept is the same for an open nat/multiple entrances. You can probably cut down on the Spine Crawlers and just replace that with Zerglings. It's importnat to have Overlords near all the entrances to know where he's coming from, and just use your Zerglings to flank him so Forcefields can't do too much. It's true that it's much more difficult to hold on open nats, but I think this is just cutting more Drones to replace with Zerglings than if you had an easy to defend nat. The fact that your nat is down means that as soon as you repel his push, you can make a couple rounds of Drones to be ahead economically.
1 Base Muta gets raped by 4 Gate I have no idea what you're talking about :3 You'll hold off their first push but then they make a round of Stalkers and there's no way your 2 gas can support enough Mutas to hold off the next push.
A couple queens, a couple spines and a ton of zergling (which you will have in a 1 base muta play anyway) at the top of a ramp *can* stop a 4 gate. Add in 5-10 muta to snipe the sentry and it's a joke. Note I said I really only do this strat on Delta Quad as it has a safe nat to take meaning you can defend the 4 gate at the top of your ramp which completely changes the encounter.
Husky did a video about this, I'd advise you to check it out.
Part1:
Part2:
From my own experiences, cutting drone count and building more lings/maybe roaches and getting lair quicker seems to do the trick. 4 gate relies on being able to saturate 1 base and pump out a lot of units quickly. Don't try to break a 4 gate, just turtle it out and you'll be able to win if you succeed.
I have trouble with this build on those maps as well.
On DQ I like to go for early speedling + roach.
Scout with initial lings, if you see a 4gate build, immediately start your roach warren and place a creep tumor. Get 4-5 roaches, break down the backyard rocks and expand. Build 1-2 spine crawlers at your ramp, and turtle until you get lair tech, which is either muta, hydra, or speedroach.
On Blistering Sands & Xel'Naga Caverns I just go for fast lair -> fast hydra while massing speedlings. Don't make too many drones. On XC you may be able to "sort of" block the choke with mass crawlers, but I haven't tried this yet.
On August 12 2010 07:23 comis wrote: I disagree with rushing Hydra ... I've seen it work but I've also seen it fail way more. On Delta Quad I really like 1 base muta as you can take your safe expansion and then a quick third after you repel the 4 gate.
If you're hellbent on fast expanding though I've found just a metric shitton of zergling is sufficient to usually hold off 4 gate (with Hydras added in as soon as they become available).
Do you have a replay of this or something like this?
The timing just doesn't make any sense in my head.
4 Gate timing happens way before even fast mutas (unless you cut queens or something). Even then, you will only have 5-6 mutas off of 1 base.
1 base muta seems to be the last build you would want against a 4 gate toss; although, 1 base roach on creep is very good.
I'm a Protoss player and I 4gate quite often (though everyone is getting really good at defending it now) and I would say this:
zealot heavy 4gates: roaches, creep, not as many lings zealot sentry 4gates: 3-5 less roaches, creep, some more lings zealot sentry stalker 4gates: roaches, creep, lings, optional spine crawler(s) zealot stalker 4gates: above
Basically, get more spine crawlers if they have a f**kton of stalkers/sentries and get more roaches if it's a zealot heavy army
As a toss player i can say the worst feeling when you try to 4-gate is to be hit in the face by 3-4 spine crawlers
Spines with speedlings and roaches work best. If you try to quick tech to hydra your first batch of hydras will be coming out as soon as the toss army is sacking your mineral line. Hydras in small numbers and out of position will melt to a well-timed 4 gate
you guys are kind of ignoring that he is asking about maps with backdoors
4 spine crawlers at your front aren't very helpful when P can just break the backdoor rocks.
OP: good Z players i've played open with aggression on such maps, and keep the aggression up as long as possible, so they constantly see what P builds and can adapt as necessary. on blistering sands I find 7pool lings into some economy into roaches difficult to deal with.
Whenever I'm trying to defend a 4gate push, I usually end up with Speedling/roach taking the first push and getting to hydras like most have suggested.
But I'm also sending out a single zergling or two franticly searching for their proxy pylon. If you can kill that, you'll buy yourself a ton of time between their next attack to actually buy some breathing room.
A lot of times when that pylon is killed my opponents will switch gears and start massing for some sort of collosus push too. Which allows me to take advantage of what makes Zerg so hard to deal with. Macro!
Against almost any 4 gate, I just use +1 (weapon) speedling. This sounds crazy, but even if they have sentries, this can't really be stopped that well with enough mass of speedling. I'm just saying this from experience in mid-plat against most toss. Just wait for their attack, beat it, then attack. They might block off with zealots though. If that's case, expand and tech.
I'm no pro by any means though, this is all just ideas. And like Churn said, 1 base muta seemslike the last thing I would do against a 4gate push... especially if they're going to use stalkers and sentries.
To the people saying to use pure speedling, this won't work. Good forcefield usage will basically hardcounter speedlings, you have to have something else, either roaches, crawlers, or hydras.
On August 13 2010 05:34 BlasiuS wrote: To the people saying to use pure speedling, this won't work. Good forcefield usage will basically hardcounter speedlings, you have to have something else, either roaches, crawlers, or hydras.
I think that depends on the map good forcefields can't really stop a complete surround. if protoss blows that many forcefields z can just run lings back and wait and do it again
On August 12 2010 07:23 comis wrote: I disagree with rushing Hydra ... I've seen it work but I've also seen it fail way more. On Delta Quad I really like 1 base muta as you can take your safe expansion and then a quick third after you repel the 4 gate.
If you're hellbent on fast expanding though I've found just a metric shitton of zergling is sufficient to usually hold off 4 gate (with Hydras added in as soon as they become available).
facepalm. ya ok 1 base muta.... and defend the 4gate. how in the world is that gonna defend the 4 gate?
the problem is that it's not a "safe" expansion. OP is talking about wide naturals or places where u can bypass the sunkens.
u may have seen rush hydras fail, but i've never seen 1 base muta hold off 4gate.
On August 13 2010 05:34 BlasiuS wrote: To the people saying to use pure speedling, this won't work. Good forcefield usage will basically hardcounter speedlings, you have to have something else, either roaches, crawlers, or hydras.
I think that depends on the map good forcefields can't really stop a complete surround. if protoss blows that many forcefields z can just run lings back and wait and do it again
agreed. u just have to make sure u make him use his forcefields earlier, before he gets to your sunkens. otherwise, when u back away from force fields, ur sunkens are just taking a beating by themsleves, and then u have naked lings with no sunken support.
map dependent, but I use this build a lot, actually testing it atm even with no scouting, i just build the base so that its ready for a bling bust. So far I only lost to fast hydra with crawlers or ling/muta on blistering sands (one of the maps in your op). One thing that can help you win the game is denying him early proxy pylon to slow him down (lings at xel-naga killing any probes trying to sneak a pylon in).
Also im not getting how seedlings is a solution, unless maybe you upgrade their armor too...
On August 13 2010 05:34 BlasiuS wrote: To the people saying to use pure speedling, this won't work. Good forcefield usage will basically hardcounter speedlings, you have to have something else, either roaches, crawlers, or hydras.
I think that depends on the map good forcefields can't really stop a complete surround. if protoss blows that many forcefields z can just run lings back and wait and do it again
agreed. u just have to make sure u make him use his forcefields earlier, before he gets to your sunkens. otherwise, when u back away from force fields, ur sunkens are just taking a beating by themsleves, and then u have naked lings with no sunken support.
except he can just go around your sunkens? If you'll look at the thread title, you'll see this is on maps with wide-open naturals and/or backdoors, so sunkens can be avoided, leaving you with pure ling, which won't work against good forcefield usage.
On August 12 2010 07:23 comis wrote: I disagree with rushing Hydra ... I've seen it work but I've also seen it fail way more. On Delta Quad I really like 1 base muta as you can take your safe expansion and then a quick third after you repel the 4 gate.
If you're hellbent on fast expanding though I've found just a metric shitton of zergling is sufficient to usually hold off 4 gate (with Hydras added in as soon as they become available).
facepalm. ya ok 1 base muta.... and defend the 4gate. how in the world is that gonna defend the 4 gate?
the problem is that it's not a "safe" expansion. OP is talking about wide naturals or places where u can bypass the sunkens.
u may have seen rush hydras fail, but i've never seen 1 base muta hold off 4gate.
He mentioned Delta Quadrant which DOES have a safe expansion. And since 1 gate muta expands around 30 you have plenty of time to take the rocks and exploit that. You then have 2 base defending 4 gate with a ramp. All you need are a couple spines queen(s) and some lings plus the threat of muta harass back home. You're now 1 base up with map control.
Reread the OP then reread my post if you're still confused.
VS a fourgate All you need is mass speedlings and spine crawlers until you can get 4 gas and start pumping hydras like crazy. make sure you hide your lings off to the side to get a decent flank and to kill any proxy pylons. Depending on how fast you kill the push you can counterpush and take the game
I think on blistering sands, probably the most important thing is creep spreading over to the rocks. That way you can put 1-2 spine crawlers at each choke and then run between with speedling/roach. I would agree its a bad idea to try to race the 4 gate to hydras since in my experience that has never gone very well against a good player. I think teching to lair but sticking with lots of tier1 units is the best way to do it. On maps with a wide open natural, I think its possible to use something like 6 spine crawlers, but once again i think creep spreading out so that they must walk on your creep to attack you is the key. That way you can see it coming faster and you wont lose as many units catching them. Playing aggressive off of 1 base as was suggested previously could also work pretty well.
Assuming you FE'd and he didn't block with pylons (a sure way to break your expo):
just mass splings. Keep scouting all the time to judge his numbers/build and do correct amount of lings. Keep half ling army away from nat, to help surround easier. You could also send some splings the second he moves out of his base to do a driveby on his mineral line.
If its a late 4gate push my 2 base fast muta usually gets atleast a few mutas in time.
On August 13 2010 04:34 hoby2000 wrote: They might block off with zealots though. If that's case, expand and tech.
I did exactly this, I held off the 4gate push on 2 bases and was definitely in a winning position.
I tried to attack, he had expanded but he had enough forces to push me back, and was still producing at the same rate I was, so I couldn't kill his natural. I killed a bunch of units but lost my army thanks to some well-placed forcefields.
A few minutes later he pushed out with a small gateway army and 4 colossi.
The ground army was completely forcefielded and useless, the infestors couldn't even reach to NP the colossi, but the colossi could still hit them (range 9 my ass) . I had a couple corruptors, but they didn't do enough damage before the ground army was dead and the stalkers turned to them.
He definitely had a higher army value than me at the end, obviously because I had expanded, researched spire and infestor, NP, hydra range, roach speed, and burrow. I had to build spine crawlers to defend, rebuild lost drones, etc.
Basically his 4gate 'all in' left him with a weaker economy and weaker army, but still in complete control of the game. My push on him couldn't win because he never stopped producing from the 4gate - he just used his natural's economy to build the colossi.
At the end, I had 3 bases and he had 2, but my third had not begun mining yet.
I don't have the replay because of a bug, but really, what are you supposed to do after beating a 4gate timing attack?
On August 13 2010 04:34 hoby2000 wrote: They might block off with zealots though. If that's case, expand and tech.
I did exactly this, I held off the 4gate push on 2 bases and was definitely in a winning position.
I tried to attack, he had expanded but he had enough forces to push me back, and was still producing at the same rate I was, so I couldn't kill his natural. I killed a bunch of units but lost my army thanks to some well-placed forcefields.
A few minutes later he pushed out with a small gateway army and 4 colossi.
The ground army was completely forcefielded and useless, the infestors couldn't even reach to NP the colossi, but the colossi could still hit them (range 9 my ass) . I had a couple corruptors, but they didn't do enough damage before the ground army was dead and the stalkers turned to them.
He definitely had a higher army value than me at the end, obviously because I had expanded, researched spire and infestor, NP, hydra range, roach speed, and burrow. I had to build spine crawlers to defend, rebuild lost drones, etc.
Basically his 4gate 'all in' left him with a weaker economy and weaker army, but still in complete control of the game. My push on him couldn't win because he never stopped producing from the 4gate - he just used his natural's economy to build the colossi.
At the end, I had 3 bases and he had 2, but my third had not begun mining yet.
I don't have the replay because of a bug, but really, what are you supposed to do after beating a 4gate timing attack?
I would pick either Infestor or Corrupter. If you go both you'll just be spending too much gas. I don't think its necessary to counterattack; if you defend the first push in a favorable position, keep ur favorable position. (I would counterattack if you completely decimate his army with no loss, but chances are it wasnt that 1-sided). Picking where to engage is also pretty important: if he forcefields definitely back off, and don't overcommit if he has a lot of sentries. Hydralisks are usually a good way to go if you have some roaches. Roach/Hydra/Corrupter is actually pretty good until he gets high templar...
When it comes to dealing with 2 gate openers, I kind of doubt that builds like 14h-15p and 15p-15h work (although 15p-15h might be close if you are very good with micro and on a far enough map).
I can survive a 2 gate attack (somewhat barely, somewhat normal/hard, but definitely not easily since you sacrifice a lot of lings, and loose up to 75% hatchery health) from good players on close maps going 13p-15h. One needs to get lings before queen, gas for speed, and a queen and overlord ASAP after. - If they are teching you just don't build the lings ofc. and can pump drones.
From there, you can mass lings if they pressure, and once speed finishes it's possible to win the game if they are still being offensive. They might not 4 gate, but if they do, get maybe 1-2 sunkens to prevent an early attack - stop making lings. Then quickly go for hydras (or possibly some banes first if you see a ton of zealot/sentry) while pumping lings. It should work great unless they have gone colossus, or decide to expo fast, which aren't really 4 gate builds per se. The hard part is figuring out how many drones to make. Off the top of my head, I think about 16 drones in main, 8 at natural, and 9 on gas would be about right, but it might be cutting it close (plus it depends on what they are doing).
On August 13 2010 04:34 hoby2000 wrote: They might block off with zealots though. If that's case, expand and tech.
I did exactly this, I held off the 4gate push on 2 bases and was definitely in a winning position.
I tried to attack, he had expanded but he had enough forces to push me back, and was still producing at the same rate I was, so I couldn't kill his natural. I killed a bunch of units but lost my army thanks to some well-placed forcefields.
A few minutes later he pushed out with a small gateway army and 4 colossi.
The ground army was completely forcefielded and useless, the infestors couldn't even reach to NP the colossi, but the colossi could still hit them (range 9 my ass) . I had a couple corruptors, but they didn't do enough damage before the ground army was dead and the stalkers turned to them.
He definitely had a higher army value than me at the end, obviously because I had expanded, researched spire and infestor, NP, hydra range, roach speed, and burrow. I had to build spine crawlers to defend, rebuild lost drones, etc.
Basically his 4gate 'all in' left him with a weaker economy and weaker army, but still in complete control of the game. My push on him couldn't win because he never stopped producing from the 4gate - he just used his natural's economy to build the colossi.
At the end, I had 3 bases and he had 2, but my third had not begun mining yet.
I don't have the replay because of a bug, but really, what are you supposed to do after beating a 4gate timing attack?
I would pick either Infestor or Corrupter. If you go both you'll just be spending too much gas. I don't think its necessary to counterattack; if you defend the first push in a favorable position, keep ur favorable position. (I would counterattack if you completely decimate his army with no loss, but chances are it wasnt that 1-sided). Picking where to engage is also pretty important: if he forcefields definitely back off, and don't overcommit if he has a lot of sentries. Hydralisks are usually a good way to go if you have some roaches. Roach/Hydra/Corrupter is actually pretty good until he gets high templar...
I never get infestors in ZvP. Infestors are horible vs all protoss units in my opinion. Infested terrans are decent, but only if they don't have HT or colossus, which they will. Feedback, observers, immortals/stalkers all do well vs infestor, and NP is complete garbage right now against any race.
EPT
