We all know that four gate is a powerful build, but it's not unbeatable by any means.
However, what is the BEST way to defend against four gate on maps like Delta Quad and Blistering Sands?
On Delta Quad, the nat is so wide open, you'd have to build a ton of spine crawlers in both bases. However, with the timing of most four gates, it'd be impossible to do because resources would not allow it unless you want to skimp on your army. Should I just ignore my army and build a ton of spine crawlers in each base?
On Blistering Sands it's the same. They four gate, break down your backdoor, and you're forced to run your spine crawlers from base to base. However, the burrow time for spine crawlers is such that they'll just die while they're burrowing down. I managed to defend vs. one for a while but eventually the pressure broke me down since my spine crawlers would gradually receive free damage.
I can easily defend against four gates on maps like Lost Temple where the natural isn't as wide and there isn't an alternative route to the main. My previous strats so far have been to build 4-5 spine crawlers and hold them off with speedlings while teching to hydras, but that's harder on maps where they can just walk around the spine crawlers to the main or just snipe down your nat if your main is well defended.
So, what is the best way? And yes, I scout and prepare beforehand. I know it's coming, and I prepare for it (it's the optimal build for 90% of the tosses I play against anyway). I'm currently top Platinum playing against mid level Diamonds.
Oh, and I've come across two kinds of four gates:
Mass zealots and sentries. Mass stalkers and few zealots with one or two sentries.
NOTE: This is NOT a balance thread. Do not complain about imbalance or any such thing. Only competent advice allowed. :D
I think the best way is to fast expand while rushing hydras. Don't even bother making more than 2-4 lings if you see they are 4 gating. With 2-3 spine crawlers and some hydra you can usually micro your way into the lead if they try to push in. The timing of this is usually really close but when it works it works really well, for me at least (500 diamond)
I usually do a sort of Idra build, 15 pool, 15 hatch, gas as soon as both queens are started. Lair as soon as I get 100 gas. I'm at work now but I can post a replay or 2 from last night where I defended 4 gates.
I disagree with rushing Hydra ... I've seen it work but I've also seen it fail way more. On Delta Quad I really like 1 base muta as you can take your safe expansion and then a quick third after you repel the 4 gate.
If you're hellbent on fast expanding though I've found just a metric shitton of zergling is sufficient to usually hold off 4 gate (with Hydras added in as soon as they become available).
-Massing Speedlings. -Building a few Spine Crawlers at the natural. -Rushing to Lair + Hydra Den.
Don't bother saturating your nat right away, just use it for the creep to put down Spine Crawlers. The concept is the same for an open nat/multiple entrances. You can probably cut down on the Spine Crawlers and just replace that with Zerglings. It's importnat to have Overlords near all the entrances to know where he's coming from, and just use your Zerglings to flank him so Forcefields can't do too much. It's true that it's much more difficult to hold on open nats, but I think this is just cutting more Drones to replace with Zerglings than if you had an easy to defend nat. The fact that your nat is down means that as soon as you repel his push, you can make a couple rounds of Drones to be ahead economically.
1 Base Muta gets raped by 4 Gate I have no idea what you're talking about :3 You'll hold off their first push but then they make a round of Stalkers and there's no way your 2 gas can support enough Mutas to hold off the next push.
On August 12 2010 07:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Holding off 4 Gate is an issue of:
-Massing Speedlings. -Building a few Spine Crawlers at the natural. -Rushing to Lair + Hydra Den.
Don't bother saturating your nat right away, just use it for the creep to put down Spine Crawlers. The concept is the same for an open nat/multiple entrances. You can probably cut down on the Spine Crawlers and just replace that with Zerglings. It's importnat to have Overlords near all the entrances to know where he's coming from, and just use your Zerglings to flank him so Forcefields can't do too much. It's true that it's much more difficult to hold on open nats, but I think this is just cutting more Drones to replace with Zerglings than if you had an easy to defend nat. The fact that your nat is down means that as soon as you repel his push, you can make a couple rounds of Drones to be ahead economically.
1 Base Muta gets raped by 4 Gate I have no idea what you're talking about :3 You'll hold off their first push but then they make a round of Stalkers and there's no way your 2 gas can support enough Mutas to hold off the next push.
I suppose a ton of zerlings would be good against mass stalkers, but I fear against mass zealots they'll just melt. I guess I'll just have to see which one they go for and see if I should get banelings or not.
My personal experience is that Banelings are very weak to 4 Gate because of the steep gas cost, reduces your Zergling count, and is very vulnerable to any sort of micro on Stalkers + Forcefield Sentries.
I'd rather just have some Hydralisks out for really good DPS on Gateway units while your Lings surround and block.
The trick is to not over drone. When he is 4 gating he is only on one base. Have enough drones to saturate one base spread amongst your two mineral lines and then STOP making drones.
After that, I find a nice balanced mix of roaches and lings will stop it almost every time. Just gotta make sure you stop droning and start producing army early enough. It can still be handy to place one spine crawler at each base, but I wouldn't do any more than that on wide open nat maps.
Then all you have to worry about is the inevitable switch to colossus.
On delta quadrant, I usually do not FE and instead go one base until I can break the rocks of the safe nat. That way I can expand, get the eco advantage, and expand again while protecting all three with a better funded force pretty easily.
On August 12 2010 07:57 drayen wrote: via unit tester, lings + 10% bling can chew up more than their investment in zelots/stalker (even if heavy zelot). Does anyone go bling vs protos ?
Nah, not early in the game at least. Well placed forcefields will render your banelings useless. I think hydra/speedling is really the only way to go vs. 4 gate.
On August 12 2010 07:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Holding off 4 Gate is an issue of:
-Massing Speedlings. -Building a few Spine Crawlers at the natural. -Rushing to Lair + Hydra Den.
Don't bother saturating your nat right away, just use it for the creep to put down Spine Crawlers. The concept is the same for an open nat/multiple entrances. You can probably cut down on the Spine Crawlers and just replace that with Zerglings. It's importnat to have Overlords near all the entrances to know where he's coming from, and just use your Zerglings to flank him so Forcefields can't do too much. It's true that it's much more difficult to hold on open nats, but I think this is just cutting more Drones to replace with Zerglings than if you had an easy to defend nat. The fact that your nat is down means that as soon as you repel his push, you can make a couple rounds of Drones to be ahead economically.
1 Base Muta gets raped by 4 Gate I have no idea what you're talking about :3 You'll hold off their first push but then they make a round of Stalkers and there's no way your 2 gas can support enough Mutas to hold off the next push.
A couple queens, a couple spines and a ton of zergling (which you will have in a 1 base muta play anyway) at the top of a ramp *can* stop a 4 gate. Add in 5-10 muta to snipe the sentry and it's a joke. Note I said I really only do this strat on Delta Quad as it has a safe nat to take meaning you can defend the 4 gate at the top of your ramp which completely changes the encounter.
Husky did a video about this, I'd advise you to check it out.
Part1:
Part2:
From my own experiences, cutting drone count and building more lings/maybe roaches and getting lair quicker seems to do the trick. 4 gate relies on being able to saturate 1 base and pump out a lot of units quickly. Don't try to break a 4 gate, just turtle it out and you'll be able to win if you succeed.
I have trouble with this build on those maps as well.
On DQ I like to go for early speedling + roach.
Scout with initial lings, if you see a 4gate build, immediately start your roach warren and place a creep tumor. Get 4-5 roaches, break down the backyard rocks and expand. Build 1-2 spine crawlers at your ramp, and turtle until you get lair tech, which is either muta, hydra, or speedroach.
On Blistering Sands & Xel'Naga Caverns I just go for fast lair -> fast hydra while massing speedlings. Don't make too many drones. On XC you may be able to "sort of" block the choke with mass crawlers, but I haven't tried this yet.
On August 12 2010 07:23 comis wrote: I disagree with rushing Hydra ... I've seen it work but I've also seen it fail way more. On Delta Quad I really like 1 base muta as you can take your safe expansion and then a quick third after you repel the 4 gate.
If you're hellbent on fast expanding though I've found just a metric shitton of zergling is sufficient to usually hold off 4 gate (with Hydras added in as soon as they become available).
Do you have a replay of this or something like this?
The timing just doesn't make any sense in my head.
4 Gate timing happens way before even fast mutas (unless you cut queens or something). Even then, you will only have 5-6 mutas off of 1 base.
1 base muta seems to be the last build you would want against a 4 gate toss; although, 1 base roach on creep is very good.
EPT
