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fidey
United States46 Posts
zealot heavy 4gates: roaches, creep, not as many lings zealot sentry 4gates: 3-5 less roaches, creep, some more lings zealot sentry stalker 4gates: roaches, creep, lings, optional spine crawler(s) zealot stalker 4gates: above Basically, get more spine crawlers if they have a f**kton of stalkers/sentries and get more roaches if it's a zealot heavy army And have fun raping 4gates | ||
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Keap
United States214 Posts
 Spines with speedlings and roaches work best. If you try to quick tech to hydra your first batch of hydras will be coming out as soon as the toss army is sacking your mineral line. Hydras in small numbers and out of position will melt to a well-timed 4 gate | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
4 spine crawlers at your front aren't very helpful when P can just break the backdoor rocks. OP: good Z players i've played open with aggression on such maps, and keep the aggression up as long as possible, so they constantly see what P builds and can adapt as necessary. on blistering sands I find 7pool lings into some economy into roaches difficult to deal with. | ||
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Ragnar4
United States64 Posts
But I'm also sending out a single zergling or two franticly searching for their proxy pylon. If you can kill that, you'll buy yourself a ton of time between their next attack to actually buy some breathing room. A lot of times when that pylon is killed my opponents will switch gears and start massing for some sort of collosus push too. Which allows me to take advantage of what makes Zerg so hard to deal with. Macro! | ||
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hoby2000
United States918 Posts
I'm no pro by any means though, this is all just ideas. And like Churn said, 1 base muta seemslike the last thing I would do against a 4gate push... especially if they're going to use stalkers and sentries. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On August 13 2010 05:34 BlasiuS wrote: To the people saying to use pure speedling, this won't work. Good forcefield usage will basically hardcounter speedlings, you have to have something else, either roaches, crawlers, or hydras. I think that depends on the map good forcefields can't really stop a complete surround. if protoss blows that many forcefields z can just run lings back and wait and do it again | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
On August 12 2010 07:23 comis wrote: I disagree with rushing Hydra ... I've seen it work but I've also seen it fail way more. On Delta Quad I really like 1 base muta as you can take your safe expansion and then a quick third after you repel the 4 gate. If you're hellbent on fast expanding though I've found just a metric shitton of zergling is sufficient to usually hold off 4 gate (with Hydras added in as soon as they become available). facepalm. ya ok 1 base muta.... and defend the 4gate. how in the world is that gonna defend the 4 gate? the problem is that it's not a "safe" expansion. OP is talking about wide naturals or places where u can bypass the sunkens. u may have seen rush hydras fail, but i've never seen 1 base muta hold off 4gate. | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
On August 13 2010 04:22 travis wrote: you guys are kind of ignoring that he is asking about maps with backdoors yeah, that's TL for you. | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
On August 13 2010 05:39 travis wrote: I think that depends on the map good forcefields can't really stop a complete surround. if protoss blows that many forcefields z can just run lings back and wait and do it again agreed. u just have to make sure u make him use his forcefields earlier, before he gets to your sunkens. otherwise, when u back away from force fields, ur sunkens are just taking a beating by themsleves, and then u have naked lings with no sunken support. | ||
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iokke
United States1179 Posts
Also im not getting how seedlings is a solution, unless maybe you upgrade their armor too... | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On August 13 2010 05:46 waffling1 wrote: agreed. u just have to make sure u make him use his forcefields earlier, before he gets to your sunkens. otherwise, when u back away from force fields, ur sunkens are just taking a beating by themsleves, and then u have naked lings with no sunken support. except he can just go around your sunkens? If you'll look at the thread title, you'll see this is on maps with wide-open naturals and/or backdoors, so sunkens can be avoided, leaving you with pure ling, which won't work against good forcefield usage. | ||
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comis
United States333 Posts
On August 13 2010 05:40 waffling1 wrote: facepalm. ya ok 1 base muta.... and defend the 4gate. how in the world is that gonna defend the 4 gate? the problem is that it's not a "safe" expansion. OP is talking about wide naturals or places where u can bypass the sunkens. u may have seen rush hydras fail, but i've never seen 1 base muta hold off 4gate. He mentioned Delta Quadrant which DOES have a safe expansion. And since 1 gate muta expands around 30 you have plenty of time to take the rocks and exploit that. You then have 2 base defending 4 gate with a ramp. All you need are a couple spines queen(s) and some lings plus the threat of muta harass back home. You're now 1 base up with map control. Reread the OP then reread my post if you're still confused. | ||
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KrUtiAL
United States41 Posts
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Stigma.Chaos
United States6 Posts
On maps with a wide open natural, I think its possible to use something like 6 spine crawlers, but once again i think creep spreading out so that they must walk on your creep to attack you is the key. That way you can see it coming faster and you wont lose as many units catching them. Playing aggressive off of 1 base as was suggested previously could also work pretty well. | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
just mass splings. Keep scouting all the time to judge his numbers/build and do correct amount of lings. Keep half ling army away from nat, to help surround easier. You could also send some splings the second he moves out of his base to do a driveby on his mineral line. If its a late 4gate push my 2 base fast muta usually gets atleast a few mutas in time. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 13 2010 04:34 hoby2000 wrote: They might block off with zealots though. If that's case, expand and tech. I did exactly this, I held off the 4gate push on 2 bases and was definitely in a winning position. I tried to attack, he had expanded but he had enough forces to push me back, and was still producing at the same rate I was, so I couldn't kill his natural. I killed a bunch of units but lost my army thanks to some well-placed forcefields. A few minutes later he pushed out with a small gateway army and 4 colossi. The ground army was completely forcefielded and useless, the infestors couldn't even reach to NP the colossi, but the colossi could still hit them (range 9 my ass) . I had a couple corruptors, but they didn't do enough damage before the ground army was dead and the stalkers turned to them. He definitely had a higher army value than me at the end, obviously because I had expanded, researched spire and infestor, NP, hydra range, roach speed, and burrow. I had to build spine crawlers to defend, rebuild lost drones, etc. Basically his 4gate 'all in' left him with a weaker economy and weaker army, but still in complete control of the game. My push on him couldn't win because he never stopped producing from the 4gate - he just used his natural's economy to build the colossi. At the end, I had 3 bases and he had 2, but my third had not begun mining yet. I don't have the replay because of a bug, but really, what are you supposed to do after beating a 4gate timing attack? | ||
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Stigma.Chaos
United States6 Posts
On August 13 2010 08:07 fdsdfg wrote: I did exactly this, I held off the 4gate push on 2 bases and was definitely in a winning position. I tried to attack, he had expanded but he had enough forces to push me back, and was still producing at the same rate I was, so I couldn't kill his natural. I killed a bunch of units but lost my army thanks to some well-placed forcefields. A few minutes later he pushed out with a small gateway army and 4 colossi. The ground army was completely forcefielded and useless, the infestors couldn't even reach to NP the colossi, but the colossi could still hit them (range 9 my ass) . I had a couple corruptors, but they didn't do enough damage before the ground army was dead and the stalkers turned to them. He definitely had a higher army value than me at the end, obviously because I had expanded, researched spire and infestor, NP, hydra range, roach speed, and burrow. I had to build spine crawlers to defend, rebuild lost drones, etc. Basically his 4gate 'all in' left him with a weaker economy and weaker army, but still in complete control of the game. My push on him couldn't win because he never stopped producing from the 4gate - he just used his natural's economy to build the colossi. At the end, I had 3 bases and he had 2, but my third had not begun mining yet. I don't have the replay because of a bug, but really, what are you supposed to do after beating a 4gate timing attack? I would pick either Infestor or Corrupter. If you go both you'll just be spending too much gas. I don't think its necessary to counterattack; if you defend the first push in a favorable position, keep ur favorable position. (I would counterattack if you completely decimate his army with no loss, but chances are it wasnt that 1-sided). Picking where to engage is also pretty important: if he forcefields definitely back off, and don't overcommit if he has a lot of sentries. Hydralisks are usually a good way to go if you have some roaches. Roach/Hydra/Corrupter is actually pretty good until he gets high templar... | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
I can survive a 2 gate attack (somewhat barely, somewhat normal/hard, but definitely not easily since you sacrifice a lot of lings, and loose up to 75% hatchery health) from good players on close maps going 13p-15h. One needs to get lings before queen, gas for speed, and a queen and overlord ASAP after. - If they are teching you just don't build the lings ofc. and can pump drones. From there, you can mass lings if they pressure, and once speed finishes it's possible to win the game if they are still being offensive. They might not 4 gate, but if they do, get maybe 1-2 sunkens to prevent an early attack - stop making lings. Then quickly go for hydras (or possibly some banes first if you see a ton of zealot/sentry) while pumping lings. It should work great unless they have gone colossus, or decide to expo fast, which aren't really 4 gate builds per se. The hard part is figuring out how many drones to make. Off the top of my head, I think about 16 drones in main, 8 at natural, and 9 on gas would be about right, but it might be cutting it close (plus it depends on what they are doing). On August 13 2010 08:33 Stigma.Chaos wrote: I never get infestors in ZvP. Infestors are horible vs all protoss units in my opinion. Infested terrans are decent, but only if they don't have HT or colossus, which they will. Feedback, observers, immortals/stalkers all do well vs infestor, and NP is complete garbage right now against any race.+ Show Spoiler + On August 13 2010 08:07 fdsdfg wrote: I did exactly this, I held off the 4gate push on 2 bases and was definitely in a winning position. I tried to attack, he had expanded but he had enough forces to push me back, and was still producing at the same rate I was, so I couldn't kill his natural. I killed a bunch of units but lost my army thanks to some well-placed forcefields. A few minutes later he pushed out with a small gateway army and 4 colossi. The ground army was completely forcefielded and useless, the infestors couldn't even reach to NP the colossi, but the colossi could still hit them (range 9 my ass) . I had a couple corruptors, but they didn't do enough damage before the ground army was dead and the stalkers turned to them. He definitely had a higher army value than me at the end, obviously because I had expanded, researched spire and infestor, NP, hydra range, roach speed, and burrow. I had to build spine crawlers to defend, rebuild lost drones, etc. Basically his 4gate 'all in' left him with a weaker economy and weaker army, but still in complete control of the game. My push on him couldn't win because he never stopped producing from the 4gate - he just used his natural's economy to build the colossi. At the end, I had 3 bases and he had 2, but my third had not begun mining yet. I don't have the replay because of a bug, but really, what are you supposed to do after beating a 4gate timing attack? I would pick either Infestor or Corrupter. If you go both you'll just be spending too much gas. I don't think its necessary to counterattack; if you defend the first push in a favorable position, keep ur favorable position. (I would counterattack if you completely decimate his army with no loss, but chances are it wasnt that 1-sided). Picking where to engage is also pretty important: if he forcefields definitely back off, and don't overcommit if he has a lot of sentries. Hydralisks are usually a good way to go if you have some roaches. Roach/Hydra/Corrupter is actually pretty good until he gets high templar... | ||
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