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On August 03 2010 12:38 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 12:28 Phrost wrote:
You have to be clever when you attack. You can't 1a with a 200/200 army against an entrenched position doesn't make anything unbalanced. The zerg army is a lot more mobile than terran and non-gateway protoss units. You need to use tactics to your advantage.
I've broke tank lines with burrowed infestors and spam infested terran to splash them to death. Use overlord drops and multi-prong attacks to force slow moving units to be unable to defend.
If you don't use infestors then you're really doing it wrong because a few NP and fungal growths can turn the tide of a battle in a huge way. Especially with ultralisks. Yeah Sheth. You need to be clever when you attack. You can't just attack head on. You have to be sneaky. Try some drops sometime. Or maybe pop in a nydus worm. Maybe spread some creep tumors and run around his army all day? Send some lings to snipe his expos? Send some mutas to harass his main? Did you ever think about that, Sheth? Did you? Seriously, posts like these are getting really annoying to read. First, you're telling one of the top North American Zergs how to play the game. Second, you're giving flat out terrible advice. I mean, maybe they haven't heard of something called missile turrets in tank lines Gold League, or maybe that whopping 36 AoE damage to siege tanks is somehow game changing there, but please believe me when I tell you it doesn't matter much. Yes, whenever NP had an infinite duration, mass infestors were really good against mech. But not any more. Third, your post has nothing at all to do with the thread. You just assume the OP is complaining about Terran mech (by the way, there's nothing in the OP that's asking for advice against Terran mech) and you miss the point entirely. He's pointing out a flaw in the game, and it's not something you can fix just by changing up your playstyle. Especially when fixing this flaw in the game can have an enormous impact on Zerg playstyle.
This is one of the most useless posts I have seen in a long time and it was very annoying to read. Sorry to have to say that but the advise given here is not helpfull and everything he says is just a death beat argument and most of the ideas simply dont work in general.
Yeah it is great to use burrowed units against siegetanks without detection doahhh ....
Yeah sniping undefended expos with cheap lings is good ....
I mean is this advise or mockery ?
The op raised a valid point in my opinion and he tried to support his ideas and then comes this ?
At least try to explain your ideas and dont just tell things that are obvious ...
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On August 03 2010 15:50 Holy_AT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 12:38 Saracen wrote:On August 03 2010 12:28 Phrost wrote:
You have to be clever when you attack. You can't 1a with a 200/200 army against an entrenched position doesn't make anything unbalanced. The zerg army is a lot more mobile than terran and non-gateway protoss units. You need to use tactics to your advantage.
I've broke tank lines with burrowed infestors and spam infested terran to splash them to death. Use overlord drops and multi-prong attacks to force slow moving units to be unable to defend.
If you don't use infestors then you're really doing it wrong because a few NP and fungal growths can turn the tide of a battle in a huge way. Especially with ultralisks. Yeah Sheth. You need to be clever when you attack. You can't just attack head on. You have to be sneaky. Try some drops sometime. Or maybe pop in a nydus worm. Maybe spread some creep tumors and run around his army all day? Send some lings to snipe his expos? Send some mutas to harass his main? Did you ever think about that, Sheth? Did you? Seriously, posts like these are getting really annoying to read. First, you're telling one of the top North American Zergs how to play the game. Second, you're giving flat out terrible advice. I mean, maybe they haven't heard of something called missile turrets in tank lines Gold League, or maybe that whopping 36 AoE damage to siege tanks is somehow game changing there, but please believe me when I tell you it doesn't matter much. Yes, whenever NP had an infinite duration, mass infestors were really good against mech. But not any more. Third, your post has nothing at all to do with the thread. You just assume the OP is complaining about Terran mech (by the way, there's nothing in the OP that's asking for advice against Terran mech) and you miss the point entirely. He's pointing out a flaw in the game, and it's not something you can fix just by changing up your playstyle. Especially when fixing this flaw in the game can have an enormous impact on Zerg playstyle. This is one of the most useless posts I have seen in a long time and it was very annoying to read. Sorry to have to say that but the advise given here is not helpfull and everything he says is just a death beat argument and most of the ideas simply dont work in general. Yeah it is great to use burrowed units against siegetanks without detection doahhh .... Yeah sniping undefended expos with cheap lings is good .... I mean is this advise or mockery ? The op raised a valid point in my opinion and he tried to support his ideas and then comes this ? At least try to explain your ideas and dont just tell things that are obvious ...
Perhaps English isn't your first language. That post was actually defending the OP and not attacking it. I understand that sarcasm can be difficult to detect on the internet, but really?
As for Zerg, I'm trying to stick out the race because I decided to play random, but every game I random Zerg I feel like I'm losing to terribads all the time. And Zerg was my main race in the beta.
I think it's a little silly how hard Zerg players have to work to beat their Terran or Protoss counterparts. I've been playing T/P for an entire two weeks and my skill with them has already surpassed my Zerg skill - I honestly think that playing Zerg is an exercise in masochism.
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Didn't read the entire thread but to op : did you know you could cancel the PF with ur overseer ability ? Dunno if it doesn't work anymore but that was the case in the beta.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
My friends, who I always beat, hit gold and silver with terran and protoss, whereas I was put into bronze. Another friend who plays zerg also got put into bronze. It just doesn't make much sense.
My observations are that zerg can usually outbase someone, but that becomes pointless when a big ball of death gets a-moved in. I usually can't replace my units in time and I lose my natural and main. Pretty much, it requires minimal effort from the Protoss/Terran who sit on one or two bases and just makes a lot of units then a-moves in. Against terrans, I only seem to win because I have 5 bases when they were forced to stay on one and I take 10:1 losses trying to push through their main. At least I can replace those units and he can't, but it's the way zerg has to be played. Wait until the enemy's exhausted themselves then go.
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Zerg demolishes a Terran army --> Can't counter because of PF, 1-2 Siegetanks and a Bunker or Wall-In. The only thing that works is a very fast doom drop.
Terra demolishes a Z army --> Counter, GG.
Thats just how it is... Add in to this that Terran (and Protoss) have about 1000 ways to harrass a Zerg due to Zerg not having any real range unit at T1 and is forced to get T2/Antiair asap.
Dumbest developer decision ever = Putting the Hydralisk, which is the only real "all purpose" Unit Zerg has, which also can get countered whiteout a problem, on T2.
Zerg is forced to:
Fast expand and Tech fast to anti air while being prepared to counter XX diffrent harasses/cheeses whiteout being capable of having a *kinda* reliable harass themselves.
The effect?
Zerg is boring to play.
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Protoss and Terran have trouble attacking a turtling Terran position as well. I don't quite feel qualified to tell someone like Sheth that they need to change their strategy against T; but there it is... There are posts on TL every day from new players that wonder why their army gets owned every time they try to force the front door. They generally get the same answer... Expand and
Take advantage of Terran immobility. I really don't see a different answer for Sheth.
As a Protoss player vs Zerg or other Protoss I can dictate the pace of the game if I like. The same is not true against Terran if they decide to turtle up. I am often frustrated since I like to be agressive, but once they dig in Its no longer up to me.
I agree that Zerg are currently the weakest race in chokes but I don't think this is a problem with the current state of the game. Zergs mobility makes them by far the easiest to position a concave and flank. Creep spreading makes Zerg much better at maintaining map control. Combine that with the ever present threat of quickly outmacroing the other races and the choke issue begins to seem reasonable.
Imagine if Zerg could hold a critical choke with a few key units like Terran, but was still able to expand and macro up as fast as they currently do.
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Yeah, that sounds like it was in SC/BW with Lurkers/Darkswarm... HORRIBLE imagination!
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You know... what if corruption was changed to be something different and positional? Nobody likes corruptors now, and the spell is a joke. I think that's probably the unit that would benefit the most from that kind of revision.
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On August 03 2010 10:19 Sheth wrote:
For those of you not familiar with SC1, Dark swarm allowed all zerg units burrowed underneath the area it was cast on to not take damage.
so... who, specifically, are you saying is unfamiliar with SC1?
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I feel it is that vs T and P I have to do everything right or I get ran over.
I have to walk a fine line between drones and units.
I can't stay at T1 for long or I get raped by air.
I have to take extreme risks in order to win the game.
I have to have superior micro then my opponent in order to at least come out even.
I have to spread creep and macro which requires great mechanics to do while maintaining your army.
I can not attack at chokes.
What I am saying is that it feels like with Zerg you are always on the edge and against the wall. While if your opponent makes a mistake he can much more easily come back from it while its pretty much gg for you if you make a mistake.
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ZvT is absolutely HORRIBLE. Against a high level diamond Terran, I can't do -anything- against the Terran player. Especially on maps that favors Terran such as Kulas Ravine or Lost Temple. During the early game, I can get hellion rushed, viking rush, getting sieged with a tank on a cliff, banshee rushed and lose a few of my drones. And all I can do is hope his damn supply depots are lowered so my speedlings could run inside and even the game which usually doesnt happen when you're against high level diamond players. Blizzard had made the Zerg a race that -can- rebuild their army quickly, but only IF they dont get constantly harassed in the mineral line and lose half of their drones early/mid game. Blizzard has successfully fucked over ZvT. Congratulations. The only thing I can do against Terran is play defensive until I can get either Ultralisks or Brood Lords out. If I can't I lose, if I can get them out, I still lose half the time.
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I completely agree with Sheth. I am forced to be passive in most of my games because of this. I just macro and spread creep and try my best to counter my opponents push until I overwhelm them in the late game. The options zerg has is just so limited. Muta harass is completely shutdown by a single turret or thor. Terran units seem to do too well against a variety of zerg units. Against a high ranked terran, all I can do is survive and hope my ultras come out before I die.
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Now I didn't play Brood war very much at all, but, iirc, someone said that attacking a 200/200 mech army with your 200/200 zerg army still resulted in a defeat. Can someone confirm or deny this?
But yes, a tier three caster, or other tier three unit, will be needed in the EXPANSION. IMO, Blizzard has new units planned that we don't/won't know about. And then all us Terrans will be calling Zerg OP. XP.
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One suggestion I have for Zerg players (I am a low level Terran player) is to try playing as Terran in 1v1. If Terran are unbeatable and you never lose, then you can go professional, and marry many beautiful wives. If you do lose, you might come up with some new tactics to try against Terran.
I'm not trying to defend imbalance, but why are you playing as a disadvantaged race? It's like picking Sonic in Super Smash Bros Brawl... why would you do that?
I agree with the general sentiment that Terran are probably at an advantage but I do plenty of losing to every race. Balancing is definitely in order. But if you nerf Terran, I'm going to be at the very bottom rung of players for sure. As I probably should be.
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Yeah, thing about Terran is that it's very very close to not being "viable". Bio is all but useless versus Zerg, with Bio Mech fairing slightly better. So any change is likely to nerf Terran into oblivion.
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I agree with your post, zerg can't take advantage of the cliff/choke point in sc2. It's all about brute force in an open space. I hope they add some units fixing this in the 2 next games.
The broodlord is a great damage dealer in fights, but it cannot break a terran defense because of the viking's range.
On August 03 2010 10:19 Sheth wrote:
The Mutalisk (5?)
It's 3.
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On August 03 2010 14:15 Nub4ever wrote:
BUT keep in mind this Is only the first expansion. SCBW would t be balanced without corsairs, lurkers, dark Templar and medics. Next expansion I'm fairly sure is the zergs so if blizzard doesn't at least tweak the numbers to make everything
more balanced (which I think would be terribly stupid not to) units will be added and hopefully stuffll balance out.
Pretty sure that's not true. They want to have balanced game RIGHT NOW and not after few years.
I even read that they said that they don't want to add units in expansions cause it's bad for balance.
That does not mean they won't add though..
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This is what I have been talking about, or at least talking about. Zerg have lost all their those siege units, aka lurker and defiler. They were very good at keeping terran actually scared to go against zerg army without proper units. Now zerg is just something you roll over when you have enough forces.
Zerg can harass but mutas aren't as strong as they were and with thor they are pretty much useless unless you surprise him. Even turrets are better in sc2.
Drops and nydus are ok but it's like have been said. If you manage to catch him in a bad position it's good but terran army still can just roll over your base and lift some of his. Chances of winning terran in a base race is kinda low.
Zerg have kinda lost their scare factor. Now they just try to survive, every single game 
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On August 03 2010 21:18 Piski wrote:This is what I have been talking about, or at least talking about. Zerg have lost all their those siege units, aka lurker and defiler. They were very good at keeping terran actually scared to go against zerg army without proper units. Now zerg is just something you roll over when you have enough forces. Zerg can harass but mutas aren't as strong as they were and with thor they are pretty much useless unless you surprise him. Even turrets are better in sc2. Drops and nydus are ok but it's like have been said. If you manage to catch him in a bad position it's good but terran army still can just roll over your base and lift some of his. Chances of winning terran in a base race is kinda low. Zerg have kinda lost their scare factor. Now they just try to survive, every single game
I agree. =]
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Zerg seem to be the least forgiving in terms of making a mistake. Lose 4 Zerglings too early? That could be game.
Both Toss and Terran can wall off to a large degree zerg are generally wide open. On top of that their base defenses are laughably easy to deal with/avoid. I am not sure what's wrong with zerg but seems like something is missing.
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