EPTIn SC2, zerg's only high command is Kerrigan, the rest are just part of the unimportant swarm. And the most important event is Kerrigan turning back into human (terran). Kinda like how only the best of the best are really doing well with zerg, and how people feel like quittin' Zerg.
Zerg Observations - Page 16
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IamSooty
Singapore11 Posts
In SC2, zerg's only high command is Kerrigan, the rest are just part of the unimportant swarm. And the most important event is Kerrigan turning back into human (terran). Kinda like how only the best of the best are really doing well with zerg, and how people feel like quittin' Zerg. | ||
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Darkn3ss
United States717 Posts
On August 03 2010 10:33 NeverLing wrote: Definitely agree with everything you said. This is what leads to us Zerg players just not pushing into chokes and macroing/expanding until the enemy attacks. We basically MUST wait until they move out of their choke and confront them in a more open area, but this just gives them ALL the initiative. We can get 200/200 faster, but we can't push the choke, so we must wait for them to push out when they have 200/200, and our 200/200 usually falls. Of course we can rebuild faster, but that doesn't change the fact that we are completely passive, due to our inability to attack through chokes. And then when it's a 55 minute long game on Delta Quadrant and you have every base except for 4 around Terrans main you can't do shit! You're maxed on everything, have 8K resources and terran has a shitload of planetary fortress', tanks/thors/marauders/vikings......... then decides to push out and you lose! You can't counter his expos cuz he spammed turrets/PF's and you can't attack his army... well because you'll just get raped!!! It seems that a lot of zergs who actually took time to think about the problem come to the same conclusion... If I look around I'll find a few posts of mine that talk about almost exactly the same problems Sheth talked in OP. Also THIS is an epic thread. (B.net forum). *Sighs, I mean honestly... could you win a 20-25 minute long ZvT in BW without defilers??? Wtf are we supposed to do in SC2? People love to talk about nydus worms, etc... but they're really not that effective... drops get shot down pretty hard as well... -I think Marauders should have less HP. -Thors should be more like Goliaths... maybe 1 thor = 2x Goliaths... (splash = research?) -Tanks should deal less damage due to the improved AI doing all the work. They should also deal *explosive* damage (or whatever it was in BW) where they do like 20% to light, 50% to medium and 100% to large units... (Don't remember the exact BW stats and it would have to be adjusted according to SC2 stats anyway... so whatever) -Banshees should deal less damage (3 shot workers instead of 2 at least, unless you get +1 air early)... I mean annoying shit like 2 port wraiths could catch the zerg off guard in BW... but it definitely didn't clean up the mineral line in the matter of seconds... -Hellions... I mean seriously??? Take away pre-igniter imo... Harassing should be a little challenging not spam move, "S", a lot of toasted drones... I mean I can't do it vs terran (especially if he has PF later in the game) -Turrets do 24 dmg to mutas??? I mean wtf??? Can terran feel any safer??? We already gotta worry about stimmed rines/thors... once there are 3+ turrets your mutas are as good as banelings... SUICIDAL! The whole creep mechanic is just retarded... I mean it's a good idea to reward a zerg with a speed boost when he spreads creep all over the map.... but is it a good idea to render zerg completely useless OFF CREEP??? I mean it's nearly impossible to spread creep all the way to your enemy's base unless he's a careless moron that never bothers to scan/doesn't have detection and doesn't have siege tanks that will still kill a creep tumor when shooting your units... Imo in future, all zerg units should be almost as fast off creep as they are on creep now and even faster on creep (excluding zerglings). That way it's a bonus to spread creep, not a necessity! Make creep tumors cost 50 energy and call it a day! If it stays the same then creep tumors should be invincible! Otherwise it's just another shit zerg has to do with little reward (since it dies to siege tanks/hellion fire when your army is on it.) There are just sooo many little things that need to be fixed it's retarded... I think Terrans are so spoiled right now that any change that would make ZvT a little more challenging for T will cause an uproar!!! But fuck that, you have to try hard!!! All these D level terrans with 65% win-rate (75% vs Z) is absurd imo... On August 12 2010 03:14 ToxNub wrote: Rofl, no wonder you can't tech switch, you're doing it completely wrong. Please learn to play before coming out and declaring it impossible. You DON'T tech switch by scouting the enemy comp, or losing an army, and THEN putting down your tech structure and starting your upgrades. You plan for a tech switch ahead of time, and only produce the units that are needed at the moment. As you progress through the game, you decide what units are useful, and place the necessary tech structures. You don't use them until they are necessary. Suppose you attack with mass roach, his response is to increase his armies composition of marauder. Since you already have a pool, you switch to zerglings (which you already have speed for). He adds hellions to his mix, now you make muta with your next larvae batch. He makes marines... but you already have a baneling nest and you run your mutas away, baneling the marines, and then put them back in. The terran will be tearing his hair out trying to figure out what you are going. It's the zergs who sit around picking 1 unit composition for the entire game and predictably just go higher in tech that get compltely farmed. Zerg have the capability to have an entirely different wave, in every single attack. This means the opponent has to literally be able to counter everything, and you can exploit the fact that his army isn't specialized. Thor/tank/hellion/marine might be crazy deadly to fight, but there are clearly some units that are better in this situation from others. Every time you make your opponent build non-optimal units (say marines vs your roaches), you gain. Quite frequently I'll alternate waves of muta and ling vs protoss. He spams stalkers, I throw lings at him. He makes zealots, I throw mutas at him. He gets phoenix, I pump hydra. THIS is the tech switch. Rapidly changing your composition to confound your enemy's counters. It has nothing to do with the actual production of the tech structure. You know what would be awesome? If zerg units hard countered Terran units as well as you think... Shitload of marauders will shit on a shitload of zerglings or kill so many that the remaining once won't be enough to threaten your opponent... that's if someone ever goes pure marauders... Marines are pretty safe from banelings behind marauders and with stim/decent amount kill banelings before they get within splash range... Banelings also suicide so once both armies are dead, both players have to rebuild them... Terran rebuilds almost as fast as zerg with all of the reactors, etc. And as it was mentioned before... small terran army >>>>> small zerg army! PS: I think everyone who likes to argue... please provide your league/rank and also ICCup rank, if applicable... it's hard to judge whether someone just trolls or has something useful to say if we don't know who we're talking to... I have very little trouble believing Sheth, Idra, Artosis, Dimaga, etc... they're PRO-gamers... I have a much harder time listening to unknown ass players who could be a Silver League trolls, afaik... | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
Easier macro mechanic, only one with autocasts (two), easiest early game (never have to worry about early aggression), easiest scouting, easiest counter-scouting, hardest counters.. Then they also have all the fun stuff. Vikings that transform, cloaked fliers, EMP against casters, nuke... every unit has a special ability of some sort. So then if Terran gets all the fun and easy stuff, and Zerg relies on very heavy precision, high APM, much more importance on scouting... then where's the payoff? Once you put pro players together who CAN do all this stuff.. T is still ahead. It's not that Zerg players haven't explored things to the degree that Terran has - it's that there's nothing to explore in Z. We have like 5 different units up until lategame, only one of which has special abilities (infestor) which have been nerfed to all hell. T still has a lot to explore, too. I remember seeing a TvT won by a ghost using nukes on the tank line to force them to move. Hellion drops at 3 expansions simultaneously... things we see on the same level as pro BW. This matches the trend on that korean voting page: http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8291/koreastats.jpg where Z is falling even further behind. | ||
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s0ldierofortune
United States23 Posts
On August 17 2010 16:50 fdsdfg wrote: Part of the frustration IS seeing how spoiled terran is in a lot of ways. I think this is an excellent point. I would like to look at it in terms of harassment units. In BW zerg had the best harass in the game, and Harassing was the bread and butter of zerg play until you could hit hive. By harassing, you would gain MAP CONTROL while forcing a terran to stay on his one or 2 bases. This would allow you to macro up and expand until you could hit Hive tech and get defilers. Now look at the three races harass ability- Zerg has Banelings- While baneling drops are fun they are a poor excuse for lurker drops. Muta's- They are much less effective in Sc2 Infestor's- Whil a nice idea, a good player will have a turret or two to prevent drops and to be able to see burrowed units. Toss- Protoss has 2 excellent harassment units, the Dark Templar and the phoenix (lifting workers or queens), however, both of these require a heavy investment and if scouted can be countered easily. Terran- Reapers- As fast as slow lings off creep, can easily kite lings and zealots and kill an incredible amount of workers and units while taking very little damage, are also effective against buildings. Hellions- Fast units that roast workers and light units. Banshees- 2 shot workers and can cloak though even without cloak they can be hard to deal with. Drops- By making the dropship a medic, the terran now doesn't have to waste any slots with medics, and can therefore fill the ship with combat units. Because of the less effective muta's (a staple of BW zerg play) and the popularity of the 1/1/1 build, terran has gained the biggest advantage zerg used to have in BW, map control. Also, by being able to swap addon's quickly and easily, there is no penalty to producing a few harassing units compared to protoss, who has to spend a lot of resources. So because terran now has the advantage in harassment, they also have the advantage in gaining map control. This coupled with the fact that a terran can easily defend his main(and all his unit producing structures) with a nigh impenetrable wall, and have a massive advantage on the current map poll(chokes) is what is leading to what I feel are the problems in ZvT. | ||
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Caelestis
United States58 Posts
On August 17 2010 16:18 Darkn3ss wrote: All these D level terrans with 65% win-rate (75% vs Z) is absurd imo... ^this is truly absurd | ||
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mecra
United States83 Posts
Instead of having Creep grant a movement bonus, give that bonus naturally to Zerg and just have Creep give a slight HP regen bonus. (Zerg's non-Roach HP regen is pretty slight) Just a quick idea. It still encourages creep because you can heal better on it but you don't need it to assault the enemy base. | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 18 2010 00:47 mecra wrote: Here's a quick idea on how to fix Zerg, or at least help: Instead of having Creep grant a movement bonus, give that bonus naturally to Zerg and just have Creep give a slight HP regen bonus. (Zerg's non-Roach HP regen is pretty slight) Just a quick idea. It still encourages creep because you can heal better on it but you don't need it to assault the enemy base. One of Zerg's biggest problems is that there's no way to attack a defensive position until late late game. This is a buff, but it doesn't do anything to fix Zerg's problems. Anyone could come up with a million ways to buff Zerg, and at the risk of sounding like an asshole, there's literally nothing gained by suggesting some arbitrary buff. | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
On August 18 2010 01:49 fdsdfg wrote: One of Zerg's biggest problems is that there's no way to attack a defensive position until late late game. This is a buff, but it doesn't do anything to fix Zerg's problems. Anyone could come up with a million ways to buff Zerg, and at the risk of sounding like an asshole, there's literally nothing gained by suggesting some arbitrary buff. At the same time, it would be very unlikely from Blizzard to actually change anything design-wise. I'm willing to bet that the only knobs they're willing to toy with are basic, quantifiable things like range, damage, build times, cooldowns and costs. For example they could cut 10,15 or even 20sec from Lair and Hive morphing in order to allow Zerg to tech faster. Considering Protoss can use Stalkers by adding a 50sec Cyber Core while Zerg has to wait for that 80sec Lair AND 40sec Den, that would definitely be the kind of things I would be looking at if I was in their shoes. I also wish there was an upgrade to allow queens to run faster late game, that way they could be used more easily during pushes as healers instead of having to rely on drops/creep. Offensive use of queens is rather unintuitive at this moment, but games could be more fun if it wasn't the case. | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 18 2010 02:18 Phrencys wrote: At the same time, it would be very unlikely from Blizzard to actually change anything design-wise. I'm willing to bet that the only knobs they're willing to toy with are basic, quantifiable things like range, damage, build times, cooldowns and costs. For example they could cut 10,15 or even 20sec from Lair and Hive morphing in order to allow Zerg to tech faster. Considering Protoss can use Stalkers by adding a 50sec Cyber Core while Zerg has to wait for that 80sec Lair AND 40sec Den, that would definitely be the kind of things I would be looking at if I was in their shoes. I also wish there was an upgrade to allow queens to run faster late game, that way they could be used more easily during pushes as healers instead of having to rely on drops/creep. Offensive use of queens is rather unintuitive at this moment, but games could be more fun if it wasn't the case. Stalker vs Hydra isn't a realistic comparison for tech tree level - Stalker vs Roaches is more reasonable. Both require the basic building (pool/gateway), plus an additional tech (cy core / roach warren). A better Hydra comparison is the Colossus, both require a gas tech structure (robo / lair), then an additional gas tech structure (hydra / support bay), and then the unit. The difference is that the support bay is more gas-heavy, but other than that, 4 hydras is about the same as a colossus. | ||
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Caelestis
United States58 Posts
Stalker vs Hydra isn't a realistic comparison for tech tree level - Stalker vs Roaches is more reasonable. Both require the basic building (pool/gateway), plus an additional tech (cy core / roach warren). A better Hydra comparison is the Colossus, both require a gas tech structure (robo / lair), then an additional gas tech structure (hydra / support bay), and then the unit. The difference is that the support bay is more gas-heavy, but other than that, 4 hydras is about the same as a colossus. But that comparison would just highlight the sheer imbalance of it all since stalkers kite roaches all day and collosus vs. hydra is just rape. Same with zealots and lings. It's because of this that zerg needs to stay ahead on tech, but for some reason, we need to stay ahead on bases as well... Oh, and army size too. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On August 18 2010 05:50 Caelestis wrote: But that comparison would just highlight the sheer imbalance of it all since stalkers kite roaches all day and collosus vs. hydra is just rape. Same with zealots and lings. It's because of this that zerg needs to stay ahead on tech, but for some reason, we need to stay ahead on bases as well... Oh, and army size too. Well what it points out more than anything is that for the same effort it takes Zerg to get 1 t2 unit Protoss or Terran can get a tier 3 unit and at least one tier 1.5 and one tier 2 unit on the way (stalker, immortal, observer are on the way and happen to complement each other well). | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 18 2010 07:38 Sixes wrote: Well what it points out more than anything is that for the same effort it takes Zerg to get 1 t2 unit Protoss or Terran can get a tier 3 unit and at least one tier 1.5 and one tier 2 unit on the way (stalker, immortal, observer are on the way and happen to complement each other well). Well, it's not fair to compare P vs T either. To get a T3 unit P has to go Gate -> Core -> Robo -> Support (or the other 2 t2 choices). Terran just has to go Rax -> Factory -> Starport and it gets everything but 3 units. It can build Armory alongside Starport to get Thors, Ghost academy anywhere to get Ghosts, and Fusion core is the ONLY one that requires a fourth number in the sequence to get BC's. So in the time it takes Protoss to get one T2 building, Terran already has unlocked everything but BCs. This is before Zerg has finished morphing the lair -_- | ||
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humblegar
Norway883 Posts
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Linden
Canada17 Posts
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Keltanokka
Finland279 Posts
On August 18 2010 17:04 Linden wrote: i think that enemy light units should move slower on creep, its getting pretty lame that mass reapers can out-micro everything you have at the start Exactly what I was thinking, if you think about it, creeps looks all gooey and slimy. I can't help but wonder how a marine can even run as fast on the stuff as off. Or how helion tires don't just get bogged in it. It would be sweet to see a speed reduction to all units on creep like say -50% to light (or something) and maybe 5-10% to anything else. | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 25 2010 01:56 Keltanokka wrote: Exactly what I was thinking, if you think about it, creeps looks all gooey and slimy. I can't help but wonder how a marine can even run as fast on the stuff as off. Or how helion tires don't just get bogged in it. It would be sweet to see a speed reduction to all units on creep like say -50% to light (or something) and maybe 5-10% to anything else. I don't know when creep turned from a buff to a nerf. Zerg needs creep - in SC1 an unupgraded hydra was Zerg's slowest unit, and still the speed of a marine. Now without creep, entire zerg armies can be kited by both races. Zerg just needs creep in order to fight - and creep is a fragile fragile thing. It's not that zerg units move faster on creep, it's that they move slower off creep. It's like saying Protoss units deal half damage while not in pylon power - it's an outright nerf. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
zerg is simply not a fun race to play. i could detail the reasons why i feel this way but i think anyone who has used zerg for any length of time will understand the feeling. | ||
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juw
76 Posts
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
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Khanz
France214 Posts
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