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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On August 25 2010 10:15 Bull-Demon wrote: I think zerg is a blast to play. I don't understand where this sentiment comes from. what league are you in? User was warned for this post | ||
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Naumo
Slovakia10 Posts
Muta harras is annoying as hell. It forces you to make turrets(and mutas can kill those 1 by 1 if you dont have good positions and numbers of turrets) and then thors to get rid of it. And thats also good -- if muta harras was any better then terran would be hardly able to get out of base and zerg could on the other hand fuel his macro machine to insane level. The point is that even after decent reaper opening the game indeed is 50:50. Baneling/zergling/muta is decent vs. bio + some thors, tanks are slow and must get into position, so heavy mech play means zerg can just tech and expand... Also when you get thors and bio you dont have much resources to get many tanks. So in the end its bio+ tanks/thors/medivac and maybe ghost vs. zergling/baneling/muta/ultra and maybe broodlords. That can be pretty crappy vs terran, but if you get infestors then its even and battle has unpredictable outcome, where positioning matters alot. But infestors rape both marines and thors/BC, so 1. get right units/ 2. dont attack heavily fortified positions but bypass your opponent and dont fekin whine! | ||
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Crysnon
1 Post
He's not attacking terran players... Zerg gets to a point its not fun when every match is the same even when your trying different ideas. Numbers back it up, few want to play zerg and whats sad is if your a WoW player and read about it you here Blizzard say things like this alot (specially about the next expansion) "We want every high end talent to be desirable, because we want to make players make a choice"... "We want <blank> to be desirable, because we want the player to match thier playstyle or have to make a choice on how they want to play." I don't feel like thats the case both from my experience and what I read on the forums. | ||
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SplittedOpen
Norway7 Posts
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 25 2010 16:55 Naumo wrote: I dunno why zerg feel the urge to go against the wall and attack planetary fortresses and sieged positions while they can 1. move elsewhere and attack weak spots 2. nydus 3. drop. Consider the fact that in 90% of games zerg goes FE which is pretty huge commitment and leave terran no other option than going all-in attack/reapers/hellions. Its pretty silly that players would like to do FE and then be aggresive/have map control -- am I the only one who thinks that its broken? There are a few answers here: 1) There's just no other options other than attacking a fortified positions. Good players know there are very explotable holes in Drops and Nydus. It's not like pro players haven't thought of using these, it's just never a better decision than attacking the choke. Attacking the choke sucks, but at least it can work. 2) Zerg NEEDS to FE in order to keep up economically. Remember that we can't build 4 production buildings off 1 base, and small, useful units like zerglings eat up a lot of drones. Since zerglings are the only thing we have to deal with many of Terran's threats, we need those larvae. Also, we don't have anything to make up for mule on a saturated base, so to keep up economically we need that second base. We have to spend a lot more money on tech and our units are less cost-efficient. 1-base Zerg has become a total all-in, and is only really used to create opportunity for an expansion. 3) Remember that map control never refers to where your army is. It's not like we can contain you and keep your army from moving out to attack. Once that army exists, we have to cut all harass and engage you only with our full army. Muta harras is annoying as hell. It forces you to make turrets(and mutas can kill those 1 by 1 if you dont have good positions and numbers of turrets) and then thors to get rid of it. And thats also good -- if muta harras was any better then terran would be hardly able to get out of base and zerg could on the other hand fuel his macro machine to insane level. Muta harass is Zerg's best tool against T right now - they're like expensive, late reapers with more hp and less damage. The most annoying thing is that T can fend off mutas with no gas investment. If I'm harassing with enough mutas to take down a turret safely (6), then I have spent 800/800 on mutas - you can fend it off with 1000/0 in turrets and marines. The point is that even after decent reaper opening the game indeed is 50:50. Baneling/zergling/muta is decent vs. bio + some thors, tanks are slow and must get into position, so heavy mech play means zerg can just tech and expand... Also when you get thors and bio you dont have much resources to get many tanks. So in the end its bio+ tanks/thors/medivac and maybe ghost vs. zergling/baneling/muta/ultra and maybe broodlords. That can be pretty crappy vs terran, but if you get infestors then its even and battle has unpredictable outcome, where positioning matters alot. But infestors rape both marines and thors/BC, so 1. get right units/ 2. dont attack heavily fortified positions but bypass your opponent and dont fekin whine! Well you're not making much sense here. -Zerg teching and expanding doesn't mean much when our only unit that doesn't die for free to a well-rounded army is the Ultralisk - and thors beat ultralisks at cost. -Infestors' NP is really a joke - if you just focus fire the infestors with the Tanks (they won't waste shots) then do you know how many resources you invalidate? Four infestors + NP tech is a huge investment for Z - being able to nullify that investment in about 2 roach volleys is a joke. -Infestors do not rape thors/BC. -Also, as said, there's no choice but to attack heavily fortified positions. -Positioning matters, but on some maps there is no way to get an advantageous position (cough kulas) | ||
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Neuuubeh
138 Posts
On August 25 2010 16:55 Naumo wrote: I dunno why zerg feel the urge to go against the wall and attack planetary fortresses and sieged positions while they can 1. move elsewhere and attack weak spots 2. nydus 3. drop. Consider the fact that in 90% of games zerg goes FE which is pretty huge commitment and leave terran no other option than going all-in attack/reapers/hellions. Its pretty silly that players would like to do FE and then be aggresive/have map control -- am I the only one who thinks that its broken? Muta harras is annoying as hell. It forces you to make turrets(and mutas can kill those 1 by 1 if you dont have good positions and numbers of turrets) and then thors to get rid of it. And thats also good -- if muta harras was any better then terran would be hardly able to get out of base and zerg could on the other hand fuel his macro machine to insane level. The point is that even after decent reaper opening the game indeed is 50:50. Baneling/zergling/muta is decent vs. bio + some thors, tanks are slow and must get into position, so heavy mech play means zerg can just tech and expand... Also when you get thors and bio you dont have much resources to get many tanks. So in the end its bio+ tanks/thors/medivac and maybe ghost vs. zergling/baneling/muta/ultra and maybe broodlords. That can be pretty crappy vs terran, but if you get infestors then its even and battle has unpredictable outcome, where positioning matters alot. But infestors rape both marines and thors/BC, so 1. get right units/ 2. dont attack heavily fortified positions but bypass your opponent and dont fekin whine! I'm sorry, but are you sure you play SC2? 1. Move elsewhere. Where??? You CANNOT move with ground forces, simply because current mappool features mostly a single path into a base, mostly through some choke so small, ultras cant fit thru there most of the time. Air is the only option. Oh wait, we only have 2 air units, one of which takes around 100 minutes to tech up to and costs almost as much as a BC, yet has less than 50% of those hitpoints and has no AA capabilities. Yeah. 2. Nydus. Dont get me started on this, everyone has tried it out, it is simply USELESS (unless you get cannon rushed I guess) 3. Drops? Sure, you drop your ground units and they get stuck in between the labyrinths of terran structures which also happen to have huge hitpoint pools. Sure, you can use ranged units. Oh snap, we only have 1 decent ranged unit, which gets owned cause of the hax 80hp. Sure, you can drop on some sneaky location and pick some workers off. Well guess what, hydras move ridiculously slow, by the time you manage to drop anything off any critical units such as workers will have made it across the map and your units will be dying. Reapers/Hellions are not really an all-in strategy. Zerg can macro and expand, whilst the terran is confined on 2 bases you say. Well, a fully upgraded mech ball is ridiculous. You can throw all your 200/200 armies (of which 100 are workers + queens anyhow) at it all day long and you will get owned. Broodlords are supposed to help break enemy formations, well, even friggin thors can rock them all day long, even their range is larger. And what about Battlecruisers, they are really rarely seen, but come on, 6 armor flyer with massive damage (57,7dps vs ground, 40 vs air, compared to our corruptors staggering 13,6dps vs armored... yeah) And how does precisely an infestor own a BC? Truth is we dont really have cost effective units vs terran, other than banelings and very situationally zerglings.. | ||
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Recidivist
United Kingdom62 Posts
Also I agree that the nydus worm should unload much more quickly. I think that it is a great addition to the game and deserves to be used much more frequently, however as it is at the moment it feels like my zerglings take at least two weeks to empty out of there. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
As for ZvT....yeah, there's no good way to Z to drive T back to deny a well-executed slow expanding strategy. I'd say developing a big economic advantage and then dropping ultras all ove the place is the best bet....and that's insanely expensive. Of course, P has to out-resource T to win as well, and P really lacks good harassment options. | ||
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okrane
France265 Posts
I mean, how can I punish the Terran (and protoss for that matter) for failing their pushes? He can run his stimmed stuff and snipe my expo hatch or just pretty much sacrifice his army and even if I kill it, I am left with lings, who cant do shit. This is game design at its worst. Pretty much if I suscessfully beat his push I have no army to push him back so we are equal, if his push succeeds he wins. How is that fun? | ||
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Immersion_
United Kingdom794 Posts
On August 28 2010 02:37 okrane wrote: Can somebody explain to me why Zerg's pretty much ONLY decent unit against Stimmed MMM is a SUICIDAL unit??? I really cannot understand the logic of this. I hold off waves and waves of enemies with my banelings only to notice that when I defeat his push all my units have suicided and he has another force massing at his door. I mean, how can I punish the Terran (and protoss for that matter) for failing their pushes? He can run his stimmed stuff and snipe my expo hatch or just pretty much sacrifice his army and even if I kill it, I am left with lings, who cant do shit. This is game design at its worst. Pretty much if I suscessfully beat his push I have no army to push him back so we are equal, if his push succeeds he wins. How is that fun? Well infestors are also good against stimmed MMM, and 5 infestors can take down an expansion in seconds. | ||
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okrane
France265 Posts
Going Infestor-Ling is extremely risky as one single miss-micro can make you lose all your infestors to the super-speed stimmed marrauders. Plus, infestors come way too late to be able to stop the first MM push with stim | ||
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Skarra
39 Posts
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Immersion_
United Kingdom794 Posts
On August 28 2010 08:33 okrane wrote: Infestors are good at FG-ing the army so that BANELINGS can move in and kill them w/o the kiting. Going Infestor-Ling is extremely risky as one single miss-micro can make you lose all your infestors to the super-speed stimmed marrauders. Plus, infestors come way too late to be able to stop the first MM push with stim I was talking more about counter harass opportunities, if your opponent loses his army infestors can take down undefended expos so easily, esp with burrow, 2-3 with full energy can either take down the OC or kill all the repairers (Iterrans) | ||
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Neuuubeh
138 Posts
On August 28 2010 08:46 Skarra wrote: I personally feel that ZvP 4 gate openers needs much more attention than terran.. Dunno, I sincerely think ZvP is much more balanced than terran... Tho I think I did read somewhere that Koreans are complaining about zvp, so maybe theres some truth to it. On August 28 2010 09:10 Immersion_ wrote: I was talking more about counter harass opportunities, if your opponent loses his army infestors can take down undefended expos so easily, esp with burrow, 2-3 with full energy can either take down the OC or kill all the repairers (Iterrans) Undefended? Burrow? There will always be at least one turret out there in my experience, and most probably a sieged tank. Infestors cost way too much imo, and really need near full energy to be useful. B ut yeah, if he loses his army whilst you still have such expensive units, I sure as hell hope you can take down anything :p | ||
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nujacsaints
1 Post
i'm am also a low ranking platnum who only plays as zerg Since blizzard is patching with the nerfed siege tank, slower zealots creation, reaper/bunker combo fix I think zerg will have an easier time in the beginning. The main concern is the choke issue. I think this can be solved by one teir 3 tech solution that is VERY swarm like. If you have let a zerg player last long enough you should feel like your about to get overrun .. well lets make a hive tech upgrade called "cliff walk" that says zerglings, roaches, and ultras can climb cliffs; leaving hydras and infestors to walk around. Essentially this will give the units "cliff walk" ability and allow them, in a late game, to bypass chokes (will also allow a burrow move roach research to mean more). This will effectivly turn the terrans warm little bunker into open ground that the zerg can swarm. It would also make the terran be more proactive. Because who wants the zerg to get to teir 3 now. Lets get the MF before he macros so well i get overrun. Anyway, just a thought. Maybe it'll catch momentum. side-notes: i think the zerg should have a way to "burrow" enemy units. in otherwords, pull an enemy unit underground. I think a zergling should be able to yank a marine underground, but the marine will still get to shoot back; maybe with less accuracy. I also wouldn't mind doing away with the roaches ability to burrow move. I'd rather a separate unit that can make tunnels for any units to pass through (maybe restructure of the nydus worm). Basically there would be a trail behind this unit that any burrowed units can move in. eventually a cave in will occur restoring the land. Any units left there would just be a normal burrowed unit. If you like the "pulling units under" concept, then this tunneling unit could make weak points in the tunnels and cause heavier units (tanks, thors, colossi) to fall down temporarily (maybe with damage). and should you happen to have attacking units nearby they could do damage to the units that fell in the hole. this area could be considered a "cliff"ed in region until the side collapse restoring the playing field. but those last parts are just for fun .. that would require blizzard to program additional content, whereas granting "cliff walk" to certain ground units in a teir 3 fashion would be the change I think the zerg is looking for and restore the essence of the race. | ||
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wail
United States26 Posts
I'm not convinced the Reaper/Zealot changes in the upcoming patch are the right thing to do. I do think early game Zerg needs better ways to defend against early harass, and by that I mean more effective "static" defense. Spine Crawlers are quite weak, and the burrow time is a joke when you look at Terran buildings which can (a) raise/lower essentially instantly, (b) lift off essentially instantly, and fly forever, or (c) be salvaged for their full cost in 5 seconds. Queens are pretty good at fending off air harass but if focused down Zerg are in a deep deficit, losing both their anti-air defense and a good chunk of their production in one blow. The question is how to make Zerg be able to effectively produce [worthwhile] static defense without (a) crippling their early game economy by sacrificing too many drones, and (b) being exploitable to perform unstoppable early tower rushes. I personally think this problem could be solved if Spine/Spore crawlers were trained from the Hatchery like the Queen. This makes it so that any Spine crawlers attempting to perform a rush would need to cross the map (or be trained from a completed proxy Hatchery, both increasing the time to execute). Consequently, Spine Crawlers could have their burrow/unburrow time reduced back to reasonable levels, and they would not compete with Drones & Army Units in early game production. | ||
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SnowB
Poland18 Posts
bad composition - you get obliterated small micro miss step - you get obliterated and so on... For example, terran can just happy build up his mmm ball and dont really care what he is against. If he go mara heavy and face mutas? No problem, he gets rines from already built up tech structure. Protoss? Same thing. Gateway units give you whatever you need. Its different with zerg. Defo not for noobs, hence I am loosing so much xDDD | ||
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