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WOW, yeah, that replay really drives it home. That's absolutely ridiculous. Now i see what higher lvl zergs are saying about the imbalance. It really seems like there was nothing you could have done.
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On August 12 2010 03:14 ToxNub wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 11:20 Clockwerk wrote:On August 10 2010 01:14 Svizcy wrote:
Then there are tech switches that you can abuse so much more easily that any terran or toss.
I don't know who started the whole "zerg has awesome tech switches thing" but I hate them for it. We do not have the ability to tech switch easily. When I put down a tech building I know it's is going to take forever to build and will be mighty expensive, so when it finally pops I better put it to good use. (which is why I LOVE that a few thors or turrets negates my investment in a spire) It's not like I can look at the enemy composition and say "oh I should build hydras now" and then boom get tons of hydras. Hell no. Not only do I have to wait for the hydra den to morph, I also need to get the range research because the range is pitiful. Same thing goes for roaches where I need to research burrow, speed or claws for them to be flexible. Same thing for lings where I have to research speed for them to outrun a reaper or hellion. ... Please, PLEASE stop telling me to abuse "fast tech switches". They are a myth. Rofl, no wonder you can't tech switch, you're doing it completely wrong. Please learn to play before coming out and declaring it impossible. You DON'T tech switch by scouting the enemy comp, or losing an army, and THEN putting down your tech structure and starting your upgrades. You plan for a tech switch ahead of time, and only produce the units that are needed at the moment. As you progress through the game, you decide what units are useful, and place the necessary tech structures. You don't use them until they are necessary. Suppose you attack with mass roach, his response is to increase his armies composition of marauder. Since you already have a pool, you switch to zerglings (which you already have speed for). He adds hellions to his mix, now you make muta with your next larvae batch. He makes marines... but you already have a baneling nest and you run your mutas away, baneling the marines, and then put them back in. The terran will be tearing his hair out trying to figure out what you are going. It's the zergs who sit around picking 1 unit composition for the entire game and predictably just go higher in tech that get compltely farmed. Zerg have the capability to have an entirely different wave, in every single attack. This means the opponent has to literally be able to counter everything, and you can exploit the fact that his army isn't specialized. Thor/tank/hellion/marine might be crazy deadly to fight, but there are clearly some units that are better in this situation from others. Every time you make your opponent build non-optimal units (say marines vs your roaches), you gain. Quite frequently I'll alternate waves of muta and ling vs protoss. He spams stalkers, I throw lings at him. He makes zealots, I throw mutas at him. He gets phoenix, I pump hydra. THIS is the tech switch. Rapidly changing your composition to confound your enemy's counters. It has nothing to do with the actual production of the tech structure.
Yea that's the theory, but how do u beat a T mech with Blue flamedHelions/Tanks/Thors? In the Mid game. Or even Marine/Marauders/Ghosts/Thors? See the Problem? T can make any unit comp, and it's usually able to counter most units Z builds. Obv, during the late game, where we have most of the tech structure already with multiple mining bases, then sure, tech switches are okay. But it's the mid-game with limited resources, and early game harass that gets the Z. Not to mention upgrade paths for Z concentrates on Melee/Ground or Air. Protoss has Ground/Air. I don't even think you play Z, come to think of it. There is no way you can invest in all of those Tech structures right after getting lair, and your on 2 bases, w/o just rolling over and die to any mid-game pushes. Your example of Protoss only alternating b/n stalkers/zlots is stupid. If you have access to mutas, then the protoss for sure has access to t2. Your also not taking into account, how his micro'd phoenixes will kill all your mutas, and thus the leftover phoenixes is able to kill off w/e muta wave you push out next.
I'm very interested in seeing some of these reps of you confundling these T and P players with your insane tech switches forcing them to a gg. I personally don't have a problem with Zv P/T balances at my mid-level diamond league, but if I can learn these techniques of yours, i'm sure i'll be able to rise to the top v.quickly. Btw, are you actually idra/dimaga(insert pro-zerg player) using a different alias?
TLDR: I believe your a T/P player trying to troll the Zergs. Quick tech switches like you describe are only possible off multiple mining bases during the mid-late game. You will not be able to have all these structures available during early-mid game w/o severely cutting into your army size/efficiency. Also, T and P army usually have a good enough unit comp to at least hold-out when you Tech switch until reinforcement arrives.
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I am sick and tired of hearing about "just tech switch, Zerg!"
What the hell are we supposed to tech switch to and from? Zerg has the least amount of combat units of all 3 races, and after all the early harassment, it costs an arm and a leg to get all tech buildings up. Zerg is not some freaking Terran who gets every single unit in the game from 3 base structures with cutesy add-on bunny hopping.
Yes, once Zerg has 4-5 bases, we can start fooling around with that, until then we can barely produce enough just to feed your damn reapers, hellions, tanks, and whatever else that is thrown at us.
How about a mouth-switch instead?
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Zerg has the least amount of combat units of all 3 races, and after all the early harassment, it costs an arm and a leg to get all tech buildings up. Zerg is not some freaking Terran who gets every single unit in the game from 3 base structures with cutesy add-on bunny hopping.
Zerg has the same number of combat units as Terran. Zerg also spends less on their tech than Terran does. Zerg gets every unit from 1 base structure without bunny hopping.
Zerg might very well be underpowered against Terran but certainly not in the area of tech switching. Having said all that the choke thing isn't a problem with Zerg, it is a problem with Terran. When I play Protoss vs Terran and I attack a choke I'm going to die. When I play Terran vs Terran and I attack a fortified choke I'm going to die. Zerg has the best chance of the bunch if they can get to brood lords or Ultralisks.
Range 13 tanks with smart AI are just too powerful to attack directly in a choke for any race.
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Well I think, if the point hasn't been made now, we should also re-evaluate the zerg's "rebuilding an army advantage".
I know I had to in my last game against my friend who was protoss. I massed roaches and infestors hoping to send IT all over his base, destroying his gateways, and have my roaches fight his zealots, sentries, and stalkers. His army, needless to say, won. I go "okay, luckily, I have 2 expos where he has one, and my queen made larvae while I was fighting". I had the resources for about 12-14 roaches, 1 infestor, and some zerglings. He just attacked my expo, had half way down before my army got there, killed my army, then killed the expo. So, I rebuild all my larvae into roaches again, which he just kills because his army isn't going away, he kills my first expo, game over.
So, while rebuilding an army fast is great if they don't plan on sieging more after they won the fight, if they do, it's hardly to much of an advantage on appose to the Terran who sit there with 3 tanks, 6 air turrets, and a ground army of thors and marines, at home base, impenetrable by any amount of hydras, mutas, roaches, zerglings, etc. And banelings reach critical mass.
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On August 16 2010 00:35 EnderCN wrote:Show nested quote +Zerg has the least amount of combat units of all 3 races, and after all the early harassment, it costs an arm and a leg to get all tech buildings up. Zerg is not some freaking Terran who gets every single unit in the game from 3 base structures with cutesy add-on bunny hopping. Zerg has the same number of combat units as Terran. Zerg also spends less on their tech than Terran does. Zerg gets every unit from 1 base structure without bunny hopping.
Ling baneling roach hydra muta corruptor broodlord ultra
Marine marauder reaper ghost hellion siege tank thor viking banshee battlecruiser
barracks 150/0 factory 150/100 starport 150/100, tech lab 50/25
spawning pool 250/0, roach warren 200/0, lair 150/100, hydra 150/100, spire 250/200, greater spire hive 200/150, greater spire 150/200, ultra den 250/200
not to mention the terran necessary upgrades are all 100/100 or 50/50, while zerg are all 150/150 or 100/100, and we have a necessary upgrade for almost EVERY unit while terran has, what, 3?
Please don't say such stupid things.
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On August 16 2010 01:45 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 00:35 EnderCN wrote:Zerg has the least amount of combat units of all 3 races, and after all the early harassment, it costs an arm and a leg to get all tech buildings up. Zerg is not some freaking Terran who gets every single unit in the game from 3 base structures with cutesy add-on bunny hopping. Zerg has the same number of combat units as Terran. Zerg also spends less on their tech than Terran does. Zerg gets every unit from 1 base structure without bunny hopping. Ling baneling roach hydra muta corruptor broodlord ultra Marine marauder reaper ghost hellion siege tank thor viking banshee battlecruiser barracks 150/0 factory 150/100 starport 150/100, tech lab 50/25 spawning pool 250/0, roach warren 200/0, lair 150/100, hydra 150/100, spire 250/200, greater spire hive 200/150, greater spire 150/200, ultra den 250/200 not to mention the terran necessary upgrades are all 100/100 or 50/50, while zerg are all 150/150 or 100/100, and we have a necessary upgrade for almost EVERY unit while terran has, what, 3? Please don't say such stupid things.
You forgot Queen and infestor and you should be counting overseer, overlord and medivac as they are combat support units as well.
You count lair and hive and greater spire but don't include armory(100/65) and fusion core(150/150) which are required to build certain units. You also need a tech lab or reactor(50/50) on every building and you need multiple copies of each building. In the end zerg does not pay more for their tech/buildings than Terran. When a Terran player has 12 unit buildings down supporting their 3 bases late game come and tell me they cost less on their tech/military buildings. Remember a hatchery doesn't cost more than a command center to begin with and the queen it needs doesn't cost more than an orbital.
As for upgrades you are only looking at a few of them apparently. Every Terran unit has at least 1 upgrade you need if you are going to use them long term. Zerg gets 12 upgrades outside of the shared + 1 ranged attack type that is the same for everyone. Terran gets 18 upgrades outside of the shared +1 att/armor upgrades. Some of the Terran ones are cheaper but not all of them.
Insulting someone else when you don't even get the facts right probably is a very smart thing to do.
Again I'm not saying Terran is balanced, just saying you are looking in the wrong place for the source if you think it is in tech switching or tech cost because Zerg is not falling behind in those areas.
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On August 16 2010 03:24 EnderCN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 01:45 fdsdfg wrote:On August 16 2010 00:35 EnderCN wrote:Zerg has the least amount of combat units of all 3 races, and after all the early harassment, it costs an arm and a leg to get all tech buildings up. Zerg is not some freaking Terran who gets every single unit in the game from 3 base structures with cutesy add-on bunny hopping. Zerg has the same number of combat units as Terran. Zerg also spends less on their tech than Terran does. Zerg gets every unit from 1 base structure without bunny hopping. Ling baneling roach hydra muta corruptor broodlord ultra Marine marauder reaper ghost hellion siege tank thor viking banshee battlecruiser barracks 150/0 factory 150/100 starport 150/100, tech lab 50/25 spawning pool 250/0, roach warren 200/0, lair 150/100, hydra 150/100, spire 250/200, greater spire hive 200/150, greater spire 150/200, ultra den 250/200 not to mention the terran necessary upgrades are all 100/100 or 50/50, while zerg are all 150/150 or 100/100, and we have a necessary upgrade for almost EVERY unit while terran has, what, 3? Please don't say such stupid things. You forgot Queen and infestor and you should be counting overseer, overlord and medivac as they are combat support units as well. You count lair and hive and greater spire but don't include armory(100/65) and fusion core(150/150) which are required to build certain units. You also need a tech lab or reactor(50/50) on every building and you need multiple copies of each building. In the end zerg does not pay more for their tech/buildings than Terran. When a Terran player has 12 unit buildings down supporting their 3 bases late game come and tell me they cost less on their tech/military buildings. Remember a hatchery doesn't cost more than a command center to begin with and the queen it needs doesn't cost more than an orbital. As for upgrades you are only looking at a few of them apparently. Every Terran unit has at least 1 upgrade you need if you are going to use them long term. Zerg gets 12 upgrades outside of the shared + 1 ranged attack type that is the same for everyone. Terran gets 18 upgrades outside of the shared +1 att/armor upgrades. Some of the Terran ones are cheaper but not all of them. Insulting someone else when you don't even get the facts right probably is a very smart thing to do. Again I'm not saying Terran is balanced, just saying you are looking in the wrong place for the source if you think it is in tech switching or tech cost because Zerg is not falling behind in those areas.
My facts were right. Calling the overlord a 'combat unit'? That's not accurate.
Fusion core and Armory unlock two units, ghost academy one. Still much cheaper than Zerg tech.
CC doesn't cost more than a hatchery, it's not complicated.
Hatchery: 300 + drone, 2 supply. Overlord 100, 8 supply
CC: 400, 10 supply.
Yes Zerg gets production out of it, that is an advantage of theirs. That is also totally irrelevant to the point I was debating. I didn't say Zerg has no advantages, I said that the person is stupid if he thinks Terran tech is more expensive than Zerg tech. I stand by that.
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I never said CC cost more than hatchery, I said they were the same. Terran spends as much or more on buildings and upgrades than Zerg does long term. It is easier for Zerg to switch from one unit type to another than it is for Terran and that was the original point.
Yes the overlord is a combat unit, it is a combat transport and can win quite a few games when used as such. Terran gets 12 combat units, Zerg gets 12 combat units (11 if you want to count overseer+overlord as 1 which I could understand) and Protoss gets 14.
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this is the reason kulas is so bad for zerg late game. EVERYWHERE is cramped. I realized just how cramped recently when I watched Idra v Drewbie, and it was insane. Idra barely won, and lost nearly 2x as much resources of units to drewbie, because he went for an ultra/infestor/ling build. Eventually he won, but he needed 3 more bases, which is why you shouldn't do a melee composition on tight maps :I
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I think the problem lies with terran having superior upgrades and zerg needing to wait until tier2 or higher until they can harass a terran.
EARLY GAME
1) stim 100/100 is a way more efficient upgrade early game compared to speed zerglings because terran can just block them off
Suggestion: decrease the attack speed of stim slightly
2) concusive shells - only 50/50 making it impossible for roaches to get away
Sugestion: return roach 5 hp/sec above ground as a upgrade for 50/50
3) marine combat shield - 100/100 (I think) -boosts the effectiveness of a basic race unit creating good timing attacks early game
Sugestion: make burrow a tier1 upgrade so that lings/roach/bane can counter attack, harass and delay terran early game as they do their push
MID-GAME to LATE-GAME
1) hellion pre-ignitor - adds 10 donus damage to light making them super effective vs lings and hydras, also keeping speed advantage on hydras
Sugestion: remove zergling adrenal gland (its the most worthless upgrade in the game) and either add a upgrade to give zerglings more health (comparable to combat shield 10-15 hp) or put in a hydralisk movement speed upgrade
2) Thor AA splash - makes mutalisk harass in the early mid game extremely difficult
Suggestion: make thor air splash a upgrade for about 200/200, without upgrade only dealing damage to single target
OR
Decrease effectiveness of missle turrets vs mutalisk so that the mobility of thors can be easier made use of.
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I totally agree with you. ZvT is such a broken match up in this game!
Oh btw I saw the game where you played Trump last night in the ladders as terran. That was a really good one not gonna lie. You totally had him thrown off his game lol
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On August 16 2010 04:04 EnderCN wrote:
Yes the overlord is a combat unit, it is a combat transport and can win quite a few games when used as such.
No wonder you don't play Zerg; yeah, let me try to win some games by attacking the enemy with overlords and overseers. OH! and changelings are combat units as well.
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On August 16 2010 04:39 Linden wrote:
I think the problem lies with terran having superior upgrades and zerg needing to wait until tier2 or higher until they can harass a terran.
EARLY GAME
1) stim 100/100 is a way more efficient upgrade early game compared to speed zerglings because terran can just block them off
Suggestion: decrease the attack speed of stim slightly
2) concusive shells - only 50/50 making it impossible for roaches to get away
Sugestion: return roach 5 hp/sec above ground as a upgrade for 50/50
3) marine combat shield - 100/100 (I think) -boosts the effectiveness of a basic race unit creating good timing attacks early game
Sugestion: make burrow a tier1 upgrade so that lings/roach/bane can counter attack, harass and delay terran early game as they do their push
MID-GAME to LATE-GAME
1) hellion pre-ignitor - adds 10 donus damage to light making them super effective vs lings and hydras, also keeping speed advantage on hydras
Sugestion: remove zergling adrenal gland (its the most worthless upgrade in the game) and either add a upgrade to give zerglings more health (comparable to combat shield 10-15 hp) or put in a hydralisk movement speed upgrade
2) Thor AA splash - makes mutalisk harass in the early mid game extremely difficult
Suggestion: make thor air splash a upgrade for about 200/200, without upgrade only dealing damage to single target
OR
Decrease effectiveness of missle turrets vs mutalisk so that the mobility of thors can be easier made use of.
Very much agree with hydralisk and zergling upgrade.
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I very very very much disagree that an Overlord and or an Overseer are "combat units". Overlords are after all, the source of food for zerg.
Combat to me means either one who dishes damage out, or one who heals. I wouldn't count a transport unit, especially one that's primarily for food, "combat".
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On August 16 2010 04:04 EnderCN wrote:
It is easier for Zerg to switch from one unit type to another than it is for Terran and that was the original point.
Which is wrong. In Tier 3 when zerg has every tech building, sure, but in early-mid game T just has to go down the 'standard' build and he unlocks all his units minus the ghost+BC.
About the same time T finishes the starport and as access to, what, 12 units or so, Zerg is deciding which T2 building to build that will unlock their third or fourth unit type.
That's the point. You can't tech switch when you have no tech, and early on Zerg has no tech and Terran has finishes the tech tree.
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I really struggle with viking harass late game at time, putting a cast time on their liftoff would help a lot I think. Don't know if viking harass is a huge problem at higher levels of play though
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totally agree. I play a Terran friend of mine. I usually crush him because he's not as good as I am, yet. But he complains, with good reason, that i NEVER attack him. I always just defend and wait till he pushes out or until I've creeped the whole map, taken every expansion.
Then I suicide my army into his impenetrable defense, switch to corrupters, lords and hope to win. That's it. God save me when he gets better.
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If they gave ultralisks a smaller unit radius it would change the entire battle. Either that or make it so they cost an extra 50 minerals and can morph into an overlord type unit then drop themselves into enemy lines. - i find to use them correctly you have to drop them everywhere because you cant get up choke points with them. But putting them into an overlord that has 100 health and gets killed the ultralisk dies it is very frustrating to have to have double the amount of overlords you need to doom drop properly so your transporting units do not die.
And a slight increase to the damage that fungal growth does - race fixed.
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Also i think a zergling upgrade to replace adrenaline glands at tier 3 that costs 300minerals and 300 gas is to make zerglings be able to cliff jump. Its very expensive but would be so much fun. Even it makes the zerglings cost 50 minerals and 10gas to produce after the upgrade.
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EPT
