[R] Zerg Counter to High Templar? - Page 2

preaCor

Germany80 Posts

July 13 2010 10:33 GMT

#21

Ultras are barely touched by psi storms. Since storm damage does not stack you can just wade through them. I think it takes like 7 full duration psi-storms to kill an Ultralisk?

Basically if the enemy has a big army with HT support I check for how much anti air he has. If his army is AA heavy I go ultras, if not I go mass muta and snipe the HTs asap.

And never forget that you MUST outmacro a protoss opponent when it gets to lategame in order to stay ahead. His 200 food are - in general - better than your 200 food.

Numy

South Africa35471 Posts

July 13 2010 10:41 GMT

#22

On July 13 2010 18:15 LuCiD37 wrote:

That sounds right, but what about him expanding? If I am restricted to fighting this composition on creep- I have to wait until my creep has been spread to his base. Yes, I can augment the speed of that process by using overlords and queens more effectively, but can I realistically have creep right outside his main bases where I need it in time?

I think what you are saying works if it's on my side of the map, but becomes a bit more iffy when I am off creep.

But I guess, like you said, "If he mixes immortals and HT then he has not enough of both", and so I am safe with roaches and lings and using those units offensively (both on and off of creep).

Another thing, are hydras altogether out of the equation vs. storm? Perhaps have them in the back and wait until the HTs are compromised?

Sorry for my questions becoming very situational

Basically engaging on creep is what you have to do. How will you manage to creep everywhere? Get more queens. By the time you he has HT you should have enough creep to allow you to have enough mobility to contain him. From there on just expand and overpower him or kite his storms. Another strat that I've seen working quite well is transitioning into ultra/roach build. This tends to melt anything really.

Hydras aren't useless once he has HTs but as he gets more and more HTs capable of storms Hydras lose their effectiveness really quickly even if you micro them on creep. So you can still go hydra early on but you have to transition out of it if you think the HTs numbers will get too high for your hydra to handle. Same way that hydra are ok vs 1 colossi.

raga4ka

Bulgaria5679 Posts

July 13 2010 11:10 GMT

#23

The counter is the same as in BW you either snipe HTs with mutas or learn to dodge the storms . You can always try sniping them with burrowed roaches , banelings or whatever before the fight .

-Archangel-

Croatia7457 Posts

July 13 2010 12:30 GMT

#24

By my count 6 storms are enough to kill all your hydras in one battle. So if he has 6 HT or more hydras become pretty useless. But if you have no hydras he can just overrun you with gateway units as zealot/stalker/FF(I didn't say sentry because a sentry without FF is basically useless in this part of the game) kill lings and roaches easy.

And yes, without creep do not even try to fight HT's (or colossi) with hydras. In these cases they cannot run away or survive that.

cerebralz

United States443 Posts

July 13 2010 12:49 GMT

#25

For this reason, i tend not to make hydras vs P if i see templar tech. I usually stick to muta/ling/roach, defending until i can get brood lords. Lately i've been being patient, just getting by until i've got the econ for hive tech, then unloading. One game i even let the P kill my natural without a fight because saving my army was crucial when the brood lords popped, to totally overwhelm him and win the game.

Don't underestimate mass muta vs. P. +1 easily makes the muta ball extremely destructive. As long as you can fight together, lings and roaches can soak up most of the stalker damage while you pick off all his temps, then stalkers, then sentries. It takes a lot for P to switch gears to defend against mass muta if he's gone for templars. I usually don't show my hand until i've got enough gas to make 8-12 mutas. Mutas can endlessly dodge storms while picking apart his army. Just don't lose track of your flock and A-move them into a bunch of stalkers.

Ksyper

Bulgaria665 Posts

July 13 2010 12:51 GMT

#26

I either go banelings, because he will have a lot of zealots and templars are also light, or I go roaches because of the high HP, ultras would work great too.

KaiserJohan

Sweden1808 Posts

July 13 2010 13:21 GMT

#27

I really hate roaches as Z. They are nullified by a few forcefields unless you have ultras. How are roaches ever going to kill something if they cant reach them? A roach heavy army just dont have any damage unless you catch him by suprise with burrow.

Mutas to snipe HT's probably works best, or Broodlord / ultra heavy army. HT + colossus melt any pre-t3 units (since ultras take so long to get he may very well have both)

Numy

South Africa35471 Posts

July 13 2010 13:30 GMT

#28

On July 13 2010 22:21 KaiserJohan wrote:
Mutas to snipe HT's probably works best, or Broodlord / ultra heavy army. HT + colossus melt any pre-t3 units (since ultras take so long to get he may very well have both)

Trying to get both will just make you lose. The tech and gas required is INSANE.

danl9rm

United States3111 Posts

July 13 2010 13:33 GMT

#29

I have the key which you seek. So pay attention. It may not make sense at first, but you'll need to think it over. If your thinking is correct, you'll come to the same conclusion.

The counter to high templar... is creep.

Achaia

United States643 Posts

July 13 2010 14:00 GMT

#30

I like the idea of having Mutas to snipe the HTs and I like the idea of having a more Roach heavy army if you're facing HTs to soak up Psi storm damage and I like the idea of Infestors to NP the HTs and cast Psi Storm on his own army. When it all comes down to it though I guess it will come to whether or not you have the ability to micro these units. As Plexa said there doesn't really seem to be a "counter" per say. It seems the counter is just to slightly adjust unit composition and micro well.

MacroNcheesE

United States508 Posts

July 13 2010 14:54 GMT

#31

Just get some broodlords for the auto win. But other than that good micro, spread your creep as far across the map as you can, muta sniping, etc.

hyped

United States135 Posts

July 13 2010 15:13 GMT

#32

Brood lords and ultra's are great, but while you're still on roaches, it's all about the concave. Have your roaches in the most wide open area as possible. Do the attack->move while attack is on cooldown thing until his army is completely surrounded (his army should be smaller since he invested in HT's and you have mostly roaches), forcing the toss to either storm on his own units or use waaaay more storms trying to hit your units but not his. I hope this explanation made sense.

Chex

United States87 Posts

July 13 2010 15:34 GMT

#33

Plexa is absolutely correct. There is no counter. Frankly your best bet is to just micro out of the storms and, as suggested in previous responses, adopt a more roach heavy army. Definitely get burrowed movement and then you can simply burrow through storms and micro your Hydras which are much more fragile.

Also consider banelings. If he's going HT's then he has a primarily gateway army and Banelings will wreck them. Another composition that works with banelings would be baneling, infestor, zergling, ultra with some roaches or hydras if you can.

My one comment on Ultras is that you need to be careful about heavy Chargelots. They will really hurt your ultras bad (banelings should fix this problem though).

arb

Noobville17921 Posts

July 13 2010 15:36 GMT

#34

The same counter that was in SCBW, dont fucking amove and sit under it, move your hydras out of the way or spread them and itwont do as much damage

I played vs storm with mass hydras and microing storm did very little, especially considering hydras survive with 1 hp if they take full damage now

TwistedHelix

United States50 Posts

July 13 2010 15:42 GMT

#35

If going mass roach, be sure not to get caught with 1 control group syndrome. 2 or 3 groups will allow the roaches to spread out and get concave faster. If the concave can quickly become only 1 or 2 rows deep, storm will have a lesser effect.

.Soul

Canada81 Posts

July 13 2010 15:42 GMT

#36

Yeah, from my experience in watching games and VoD's it seems that the best way to avoid getting wrecked by storm is to either dodge it, or snipe the HT's beforehand. Roaches also seem to work well just because they have so much HP and can regen it back while burrowed.

cr4ckshot

United States291 Posts

July 13 2010 15:51 GMT

#37

Burrowed roaches with tunneling claws! That, or make 6 mutas to snipe the HTs before you engage his army. It's the very same tactic seen in Brood War.

Skyro

United States1823 Posts

July 13 2010 15:55 GMT

#38

Protoss player here who uses HT tech a lot to combat hydras and here's my thoughts:

-Fighting on creep, as mentioned several times already.

-Fighting in wide open areas. Anywhere units have to clump up to get through is good for storm.

-Ultras don't really work as if they are going HT you can automatically expect a healthy dose of zealots as a mineral sink and archons morphed from energy-depleted HT.

-Infestors are great but moreso for fungal growth for the zealots. HT are cheaper and can feedback Infestors, who aren't like ghosts which are hard to spot in a clump of units. It can work but not cost effective IMO.

-Mutas can also work, but also not very cost effective. Protoss players can lay down storms on your mutas and weaken them a down then just morph into archons, who counter mutas hard. Mutas can move out of storms but due to how acceleration/deceleration works in thsi game storms still hurt mutas quite a bit.

-Roaches do tank storms better than hydras but don't really counter HT. Zealots and storms still do well vs roaches.

-Burrow is great if you can catch them w/o an observer, but it's not something you can count on every game.

-Best bet to "counter" HT is simply trying to dictate where you fight his army (wide open area, preferably on creep), and flanking his HT with speedlings. Speedlings are extremely cost-effective, and are cheap enough to not compromise your army composition. Make him waste his storms on the cheap zerglings and force him to morph into archons or lose his HT.

Taniard

United States114 Posts

July 13 2010 16:08 GMT

#39

On July 13 2010 14:23 Plexa wrote:
I don't think a "counter" exists. And that's the way it should be... It comes down to control and whatnot. Storms are not as lethal as they used to be, so you shouldn't have a hard time just pulling back and letting his zealots eat the brunt of the storm.

Really though, should post a replay

yeah pretty much. There is no set "counter" and all of the suggestions are just ideas to better help your control. One thing though, just make sure not to leave hydras out off of creep against templar, or they will get owned cuz they are so slow.

CryMore

United States497 Posts

July 13 2010 16:35 GMT

#40

Creep is a good way to fight HTs. As long as your roach/hydra/ultra is on creep they will easily be able to dodge storm. Another good way is to get mutalisks to snipe HTs similar to broodwar.

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